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Old 07-09-2011, 07:40 AM   #26
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Learning from other arts?

Nice Post Dan. Succinct and to the point.

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Old 07-09-2011, 10:55 AM   #27
FiuzA
 
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Re: Learning from other arts?

Graham, and I have a nidan taekwondo instructor training with me (and I have been training with him).

Does that count, also?

Best

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Old 07-09-2011, 11:36 AM   #28
Janet Rosen
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Re: Learning from other arts?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Nice Post Dan. Succinct and to the point.
Yep!

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 07-09-2011, 12:26 PM   #29
graham christian
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Re: Learning from other arts?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Pure rubbish and an incomplete thought process from the start.
None of what you say is factually correct or even logical to anyone who has the slightest knowledge of Ueshiba's training experiences and research. Your founder did everything you are railing against; it was exactly his going out to other arts in order to develop his own. He continued to research and continued to develop.

You see his art as a finished product, and that he knew best for you... he obviously never thought that way or even took on that role. He encouraged people to develop their individual way of aiki.
Were I you, I would consider that genius is not stagnant. Followers of visionaries rarely do as well. They lag behind and never catch the original fire. He knew it and tried to break his own mold for others to catch on.
The majority of followers are not visionaries, instead they opt for a pallid substitute and sadly think it is all they are personally capable of and keep pointing to the past to validate their present state. It's easy not to excell when you convince yourself that you can't exceed the model you placed before you.
Aikido can be so much more than it has turned into. It can be one of finest arts the world has known, but it needs a serious shift in focus to do so.
Dan
Dan.
Once again your failure to understand english amazes me.

I said O'Sensei was on a lifelong path. I said those who are like this do various martial arts and hence may be 4th dan in this and 6th dan in that etc.

You take what I say and repeat it. Fascinating.

He himself said that all the time he was searching for the truth of budo and that was his path.

It seems to me it is you who cannot accept certain things about him, not me.

After his realization and forming Aikido he never went out to try and find budo in other arts anymore did he. This doesn't mean he didn't then spend the rest of his life refining and polishing his art.

Is that plain enough for you?

It is you who keeps pointing to the past and ancient past and then turn that on others as you see fit.

You are welcome to your view, it's not mine and gladly nor is your manner.

To me as far as debate goes you are a mere baby. You attack in an abusive manner and cry foul if anyone is rude to you.

I look beyond the image, the intellect, the self importance and see everyone the same. Their views I may debate, their behaviour I deal with for it shows me where they truly are being.

Maybe you should learn more about manners.

Regards.G.
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Old 07-09-2011, 12:34 PM   #30
graham christian
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Re: Learning from other arts?

Quote:
André Fiúza wrote: View Post
Graham, and I have a nidan taekwondo instructor training with me (and I have been training with him).

Does that count, also?

Best
Ha, ha. You put it as a question?

Regards.G.
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Old 07-09-2011, 12:45 PM   #31
DH
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Re: Learning from other arts?

Your posts are all over the map and inconsistent within themselves, Graham. If you have something clear to say, it only comes out when you have to apologize and restate it over and over to people here. So many times people read your stuff all the same way...then you come back and tell us it meant the exact opposite of what you wrote!

As for when it suits me and crying foul...I argued against your arguments and didn't attack you....
As for manners...I will leave anyone to read the scathing comments you used when you joined in with likes of Tony and attacked me personally and NOT my arguments.
Just where is that "aiki is love," "aiki is accepting." Graham? Seems to me that when your opinions are pressed, you are the one to go in for the person just like you did now .

So, manners, Graham? Good grief, Call your thoughts into question and you attack the person. Right on que.
Dan
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Old 07-09-2011, 01:12 PM   #32
graham christian
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Re: Learning from other arts?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Your posts are all over the map and inconsistent within themselves, Graham. If you have something clear to say, it only comes out when you have to apologize and restate it over and over to people here. So many times people read your stuff all the same way...then you come back and tell us it meant the exact opposite of what you wrote!

As for when it suits me and crying foul...I argued against your arguments and didn't attack you....
As for manners...I will leave anyone to read the scathing comments you used when you joined in with likes of Tony and attacked me personally and NOT my arguments.
Just where is that "aiki is love," "aiki is accepting." Graham? Seems to me that when your opinions are pressed, you are the one to go in for the person just like you did now .

So, manners, Graham? Good grief, Call your thoughts into question and you attack the person. Right on que.
Dan
Not true Dan. 90% of my posts or more do not fit your description.

What percentage of yours? How many times have threads involving you been shut down?

Even on that odd occasion when I was'upset' I think you'll find I went against the views not the person. In fact how many times have I told you personally that what you do and you as a teacher of it is good? A number of times. It's like you don't want to hear that. Or more precisely, from me.

This picking one time or thing to outline the whole of how someone always is is either a sign of stupidity or outright manipulation.

Do you believe your first paragraph above is not an attack on the person? Apart from being full of generalities.

Do you even know what this thread is about? Have you contributed yet to it?

Regards.G.
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Old 07-09-2011, 01:36 PM   #33
DH
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Re: Learning from other arts?

Stupidity and manipulation?...right on que, yet again.
I don't think you understand what it means to stick to the point or arguments instead of the people. Threads are shut down because of this sort of behavior, Graham.

Quote:
Do you even know what this thread is about? Have you contributed yet to it?
Yes, correcting your poorly stated points which did not address Ueshiba's continuing research into Koryu, showing up at the kodokan for judo, his continuing research into spear, sword, naginata, Spiritual pursuits, which changed his approach etc. (even though he never left his Daito ryu aiki foundation throughout his life, as is demonstrated even in later years). My post was clear and was agreed upon immeadiatetly. Seems pretty obvious to me.
You also might want to consider his peer, Sagawa who researched all manner of arts, or Mochizuki, Ueshiba's student; who continued to do MMA research in Koryu jujutsu, koryu weapons, Karate, Judo, and his aikido all at the same time. No conflict, no trouble.
Oh well, time go have fun.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-09-2011 at 01:42 PM.
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Old 07-09-2011, 01:39 PM   #34
graham christian
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Re: Learning from other arts?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Stupidity and manipulation?...right on que, yet again.
I don't think you understand what it means to stick to the point or arguments instead of the people. Threads are shut down because of this sort of behavior, Graham.

Yes, correcting your poorly stated points which did not address Ueshiba's continuing research (even though he never left his Daito ryu aiki foundation throughout his life, as is demonstrated even in later years). My post was clear and was agreed upon immeadiatetly. Seems pretty obvious to me.
Oh well, time go have fun.
Dan
Ha ha. Amazing. Have fun.
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Old 07-09-2011, 01:58 PM   #35
graham christian
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Re: Learning from other arts?

This has got me thinking. Maybe part of the grading system in Aikido should include that you cannot pass a certain level until you have helped someone from another art improve and reach a target in their art.

Regards.G.
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Old 07-09-2011, 03:52 PM   #36
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: Learning from other arts?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Three different examples of what I mean.
Been busy, hence the 'late' response...

By your examples one might conclude it takes a very short time to make some principles yours pretty quickly. This makes me wonder if practise within the art is efficient enough. I mean I could be training Aikido for ten years, do a side step to something else for a few months and then understand some principle and continue....
I know this happens and realise there are benefits, but still it makes me wonder why this progress cannot be made within the initial art.
I suppose it has something to do with mindset...change of food kinda thing.
What do you make of this?

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 07-09-2011, 04:24 PM   #37
graham christian
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Re: Learning from other arts?

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
Been busy, hence the 'late' response...

By your examples one might conclude it takes a very short time to make some principles yours pretty quickly. This makes me wonder if practise within the art is efficient enough. I mean I could be training Aikido for ten years, do a side step to something else for a few months and then understand some principle and continue....
I know this happens and realise there are benefits, but still it makes me wonder why this progress cannot be made within the initial art.
I suppose it has something to do with mindset...change of food kinda thing.
What do you make of this?
Hi Tim.
The truth of the matter is that other person or teacher has a perspective that you had been unaware of. Thus suddenly the thing you have been trying to get to grips with makes more sense and thus becomes easier to learn.

Regards.G.
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Old 07-11-2011, 01:18 AM   #38
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: Learning from other arts?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
The truth of the matter is that other person or teacher has a perspective that you had been unaware of.
Agreed. But still, why is it that we cannot change our perspective within 'our' art (Aikido in this case)? Would not you expect this to happen when you practise with a lot of different people?
Perhaps we are more willing to accept the view from an outsider, rather than trying to figure out yourself?

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 07-11-2011, 01:33 AM   #39
robin_jet_alt
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Re: Learning from other arts?

In response to the person asking about people from other arts cross training in Aikido, at my previous dojo, we had a kyokushin karate instructor training with us. I think she was 4-dan, although I could be wrong.
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Old 07-11-2011, 05:00 AM   #40
Abasan
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Re: Learning from other arts?

Yes... But why then is the aikido curriculum just so? With a repertoire of thousands to choose from, he instead threw a whole bunch out and gave us ikkyo, iriminage, shihonage and etc?

I believe there can never be a truly finished 'product' to be bought or sold at the dojo. The finished product is you and you get to complete the package. But what you put in that package is going to define it, cat food or dog food. A mixture is just that, plain and simple.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Pure rubbish and an incomplete thought process from the start.
None of what you say is factually correct or even logical to anyone who has the slightest knowledge of Ueshiba's training experiences and research. Your founder did everything you are railing against; it was exactly his going out to other arts in order to develop his own. He continued to research and continued to develop.

You see his art as a finished product, and that he knew best for you... he obviously never thought that way or even took on that role. He encouraged people to develop their individual way of aiki.
Were I you, I would consider that genius is not stagnant. Followers of visionaries rarely do as well. They lag behind and never catch the original fire. He knew it and tried to break his own mold for others to catch on.
The majority of followers are not visionaries, instead they opt for a pallid substitute and sadly think it is all they are personally capable of and keep pointing to the past to validate their present state. It's easy not to excell when you convince yourself that you can't exceed the model you placed before you.
Aikido can be so much more than it has turned into. It can be one of finest arts the world has known, but it needs a serious shift in focus to do so.
Dan

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 07-11-2011, 08:04 AM   #41
graham christian
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Re: Learning from other arts?

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
Agreed. But still, why is it that we cannot change our perspective within 'our' art (Aikido in this case)? Would not you expect this to happen when you practise with a lot of different people?
Perhaps we are more willing to accept the view from an outsider, rather than trying to figure out yourself?
O.K. Tim.
So we agree on what I said.

Of course we can change our perspective within our art as you put it. I have trained with many Aikidoka and we share perspectives.

I share perspectives with those who have come from outside our art also.

I am certainly not against working it out for yourself for that's what you're meant to do as a student after receiving good instruction.

So I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at.

As to expectations, well it depends. If a person is not being taught a certain perspective that is needed for better understanding and progress or indeed a false one then their progress will be baulked no? Thus they need that missing perspective.

They could bump into another Aikidoka who says' look at it this way' and hey presto their off and running again.

If they don't find anyone then they may search outside the art.

Personally I've never met anyone outside of the art who has directly improved my Aikido. As to inside the art, I always find what I'm looking for.

Regards.G.
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Old 07-11-2011, 08:26 AM   #42
graham christian
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Re: Learning from other arts?

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
Yes... But why then is the aikido curriculum just so? With a repertoire of thousands to choose from, he instead threw a whole bunch out and gave us ikkyo, iriminage, shihonage and etc?

I believe there can never be a truly finished 'product' to be bought or sold at the dojo. The finished product is you and you get to complete the package. But what you put in that package is going to define it, cat food or dog food. A mixture is just that, plain and simple.
Agreed Ahmad.

May I return to a nice Tree analogy. When a person starts an Aikido club or style or foundation or whatever thus is planted a new Aikido tree.

The students are it's fruits. Eventually some may plant their seed and form another tree.

The Tree however is not the person. So what is the person? He or she is the farmer wo's responsibility is to give it the best fertilizer.

Thus each new breakthrough or improvement by the teacher is the farmer with some new improved fertilizer.

I believe O'Sensei gave the correct or best fertilizer and when we understand it we can thus use it better. As you say even that is just fertilizer for the tree and food for us, we alone are the product.

Now and again you may get someone from outside the art, thus from another type of tree who says try some of this fertilizer that we use.

That's about it really.

Regards.G.
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Old 07-11-2011, 01:03 PM   #43
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Re: Learning from other arts?

Graham

You gave a few examples which to me seem to suggest that a short side step outside the art will help you progress. This would only work when you already know what is missing, or your level of comprehension is sufficient enough to understand the 'other' perspective. I think it would have been a mere matter of time before you would have figured it out yourself. The visit to the other art was only a catalyst. I agree that probably does not have much impact on your technique. Philosophically speaking you could make bigger leaps though.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 07-11-2011, 01:24 PM   #44
graham christian
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Re: Learning from other arts?

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
Graham

You gave a few examples which to me seem to suggest that a short side step outside the art will help you progress. This would only work when you already know what is missing, or your level of comprehension is sufficient enough to understand the 'other' perspective. I think it would have been a mere matter of time before you would have figured it out yourself. The visit to the other art was only a catalyst. I agree that probably does not have much impact on your technique. Philosophically speaking you could make bigger leaps though.
Interesting last sentence. What do you mean?

Regards.G.
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Old 07-11-2011, 03:34 PM   #45
graham christian
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Re: Learning from other arts?

Quote:
Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
In response to the person asking about people from other arts cross training in Aikido, at my previous dojo, we had a kyokushin karate instructor training with us. I think she was 4-dan, although I could be wrong.
Thanks for the response. Nice to know.

Regards.G.
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Old 07-12-2011, 02:05 AM   #46
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: Learning from other arts?

Graham

Your level of understanding of the underlying principles can grow much faster than your technical ability. Your knowledge can grow by simply listening to the concepts and ideas of others. Initially you may focus on differences, or even discard some of them, but after a while you realise it is about similarities. Some of the knowledge may need validation and must be put to practise.
In the end your technique shows how much you understand. You can talk about it, but show me a technique and I will know just how much you really understand.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 07-12-2011, 10:14 AM   #47
graham christian
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Re: Learning from other arts?

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
Graham

Your level of understanding of the underlying principles can grow much faster than your technical ability. Your knowledge can grow by simply listening to the concepts and ideas of others. Initially you may focus on differences, or even discard some of them, but after a while you realise it is about similarities. Some of the knowledge may need validation and must be put to practise.
In the end your technique shows how much you understand. You can talk about it, but show me a technique and I will know just how much you really understand.
Agreed, and visa versa.

Regards.G.
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