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Old 07-10-2011, 04:48 PM   #76
hughrbeyer
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Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.

George Sensei: Bringing in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance should be pretty much guaranteed to derail a thread, but it's not clear this one was on the rails anyway, so I'll jump in.

Remember that Pirsig actually reconciles the "two ways of seeing the world," at least to his own satisfaction, in the story of putting together the grill (I think) at the end of the first half. He references the instructions on assembling a Japanese bicycle which start "To assemble Japanese bicycle require great peace of mind" and talks about what it means that a culture would start assembly instructions by telling you what state of mind you have to be in to be successful.

As I understand it, he sees that the two points of view come together at the point that they hit reality. Your motorcycle runs or it doesn't. Your bicycle is in one piece or not. Your Aikido works, or it doesn't. There's a limit to how far you can drift off into subjectivity and still be effective.

And to achieve the "groovy" "go with the flow" state, as I understand him, you have to immerse yourself in the details. Once you have understood the relationship between the parts of your motorcycle so well you don't have to think about, you can immerse yourself in the fixing process without sweating the details. You can have great peace of mind and still end up with a functioning bicycle.

I think the application to Aikido is immediate. If you have the technical grounding solid, then you can have Aikido that flows naturally. If you don't, then you're like the guy who doesn't want to deal with the details of his bike. Your Aikido doesn't work. There are no shortcuts.
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Old 07-10-2011, 05:02 PM   #77
Mike Sigman
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Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Right now reading some of these debates over defining of terms sounds just like the same Budo huff and puff, this time over wanting a shared vocabulary rather than over actual skills.

As for terms:
Internal Strength, or Internal skill or Internal power? I have read and heard of any number of ICMA teachers and or their translators use those terms interchangeably; So saying "IP: This I do not know, sounds like a square peg in a round hole" is disingenuous or purposefully misleading.
OK..... the common, widely used term is "nei jin". That's where the translation of "internal strength" comes from. If you think a good translation for "jin" is "power", go for it. I was just explaining why it's not a good choice, since "power" is not a good translation of "jin". In terms of what I originally posted, I don't see anything else relative.

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-10-2011, 05:15 PM   #78
graham christian
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Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.

Quote:
Keith Gates wrote: View Post
Words are a symbolic representation of thoughts, ideas etc. They have both subjective and objective meanings, the multitude of connotations either intended or interpreted is difficult to establish, especially in the context of you are talking about.

It is important that if discussions are going to take place in this media that we are clear about the limitations. But personally I can a gain a lot from Mike's straightforward pragmatic analysis, even at this distance (with hopefully all the connotations of 'distance' intended)

Analysis has a very useful place in understanding, albeit limited to an intellectual understanding. Whereby the thing is broken down in component parts. Seeing these pieces "as the whole' is however a mistake. (Just as 1-2-3 learning 'can' lead to people to place stopping points in movements where none were intended, MHO)

To understand the subject "absolutely", real understanding can only come through intuition. This can only be gained from experiential learning. You could look at 10,000 pictures of Tokyo and imagine what it is like but you would never really "know" what it is like. Snap shots from a multitude of varied reference points is nothing near actually being there.

So why bother? Why bother reading or partaking in these discussions at all? Personally I feel if they are done carefully and with full knowledge of the limitations then something useful can be gained. If I cant go to Tokyo and feel what it is like then looking at pictures may give me a sense of what it is like serve as inspiration to get me there.

I always interpreted the reason the 'person who knows does not speak, and the person who speaks does not know' is because the person who knows, knows (intuitively), and knows the futility in expressing it. Those who speak do so as they need the affirmation from others to know they are right (because really in their hearts the intuition is not there).

However there are those who do know (absolutely), and want to guide other along the path. (This is the hardest thing to do in the world and where all the great sages run into trouble, symbolic explanations are exactly that - symbolic (and words are symbols))

When those with an absolute understanding do decide to talk it is a starting point. If we can grasp intellectually what they are talking about then this might lead us one day to an intuitive understanding, but it never more that a sign saying "head that way".

Thanks all for the sign posts !!!

Why does Zen use Koans, is is not exactly to point towards this intrinsic illumination?
Keith.
Nice post, interesting.

You know, when I was a baby I learned how to crawl and then I learned how to walk.

I did this through a process called study. What was the purpose of this thing called study? It was to do.

Once I could do then and only then did I know how to walk.

No books, no academia. Natural.

Later I learned how to talk and later than that found there were loads of academics who thought they knew yet couldn't do. Yet they were called experts. A strange world.

As you say then it is discovered that if you want to communicate your understanding in order to help others you bump in to intellectuals who 'know best.'

Someone changed the purpose. The purpose of study is to be able to talk about it for many academics. Useful as walking libraries or computers but not as doers so much or even good teachers.

Of course it is those intellectuals who see someone without their 'credentials' do something with ease and fun, let's say someone going in and teaching some kids some maths or music or whatever, as 'very intuitive' or 'groovy' or who knows what. So there they are stroking their beards being all self important. mmm.

People arn't trained to recognise who knows in this intellectual, data memory world, and wonder why it gets so messy.

For me only the intellectual mind could see O'Sensei as someone who gave out Dan Grades willy nilly as if he was stupid or didn't care or whatever else they come up with.

Of course it appears that way and you can dig up data to back up the argument. I could say Tohei was sent out to teach without any grade and then just given a 4th or 5th Dan and that Tomiki was just given an 8th Dan and then go on to justify how that proves the lack of structure and even understanding of O'Sensei with regards to the scene. All very intellectual, with data to back it up and even Tohei himself not understanding it. But is it TRUE.

I see it in a way that makes perfect sense. O'Sensei knew exactly what he was doing and why and those students went on to validate his decisions by their actions in spreading Aikido.

Quite simple really.

Regards.G.
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Old 07-10-2011, 05:56 PM   #79
Mike Sigman
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Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.

Quote:
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For the most part most of the modern ICMA group had more information and still suffers from the same fate as the JMA; not knowing how to use it.
For that matter, I have now met any number, of people who've attended these IP, IS (call them whatever you want) seminars with masterclass people and other amateur teachers, for years and years and once met...they've got nothing much either.
We will have to see just how successful this "let's define and all agree on the terms and talk about it"... business turns out when people have to get down to actually doing the work and producing.
This is actually a good point and relative to Aikido and many other arts.

If you look at most martial-arts tomes from China, Japan, Korea, etc., you'll see that they spend a certain amount of time upfront justifying their relationship to the traditional and accepted theory, explaining the basic reasoning. O-Sensei and many other martial artists used the same types of justification in their writings, indicating that they were tying their knowledge and art to the proven concepts from long ago. Maybe O-Sensei could have convinced more people by just going out and beating them up (you see that with a lot of the 'push hands' crowd as a way to prove that what they're doing is 'internal strength', etc.).... but at some point people need to be able to legitimately describe what they're doing.

I absolutely agree that a lot of people use the buzzwords and don't have a lot in the way of legitimate internal strength, but most of the reason a lot of that happens is that it's so hard to get legitimate information. Because it's so hard to get legitimate information, a lot of people simply make up stuff as they go along (mostly using buzzwords, as they learn them) and one of the few ways to get an idea of what's really going on is to get people to define what they're doing. Hence, the efforts on this forum and others to get people to accurately describe what they're doing.... it serves a purpose. But now we're back to the discussion of just how much discussion is helpful and how much just gives the next generation of buzzword ammunition to teach their students. An endless debate. My point is that discussion does serve some purpose, as long as it's meaningful and informed discussion.

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-10-2011, 06:21 PM   #80
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
As I understand it, he sees that the two points of view come together at the point that they hit reality. Your motorcycle runs or it doesn't. Your bicycle is in one piece or not. Your Aikido works, or it doesn't. There's a limit to how far you can drift off into subjectivity and still be effective.
Ah, talk about a can of worms... I have yet to meet anyone who is teaching who thinks his or her Aikido doesn't work. It all depends on what you mean when you say "works". I would say that there is virtually no agreement about what a statement like this means.

If there were competition in our art, things would a a lot more clear. My wife is a Western style Fencer, epee to be precise. In fencing it is impossible to go around thinking you know more than you do if you engage in competition. If you are wrong, you lose. You can't maintain that you were good when you sucked. It's simple. There are folks in fencing just as any place else who are somewhat delusional about how good they are. But they either do not get out and compete at all, or they only compete within their own school or locally. They do the big fish in the small pond thing. Even that can be challenged. When my wife first moved to Seattle with her former husband the local fencing scene was pretty low key. She came down from Alaska having only had men to practice with and she and her ex started a school. She went on to win a national title. She told me a number of women quit fencing when she came to town and started competing locally. They couldn't maintain their illusions any more.

Does "works" mean that, like the Founder, you could have your experience equivalent in another martial art come through the door and you could hold your own? There would be a lot fewer dojos around if that were considered important.

Or does "works" mean being able to do your Aikido with a seriously committed uke who is attacking within the standard Aikido paradigm but who will reverse you if you make a mistake. Even within the traditional paradigm, a lot of folks out there would have trouble making their stuff work if their ukes weren't tanking. If folks had to do their Aikido against ukes who had speed and real power in their attacks, there would be a lot of embarrassment.

Yet, as I said, I know of no one teaching who would actually admit that their stuff didn't "work". If you mention certain scenarios, they might state that Aikido isn't about fighting or some such, but they won't say their Aikido doesn't "work". As long as you don't go anywhere you would get tested, if you can keep to yourself and just work with the folks who agree to cooperate you can maintain the illusion that your Aikido "works".

Anyway, such a discussion would go farther afield than we would like. Too much emotional investment, too much time and effort invested as well. Everyone's Aikido "works", at least everyone who has put some time in. I don't think you'd get past that to have further discussion.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 07-10-2011, 06:39 PM   #81
Mike Sigman
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Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.

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George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Ah, talk about a can of worms... I have yet to meet anyone who is teaching who thinks his or her Aikido doesn't work.
I've said it before, but I'll say it again: I don't think that conflating "it works" or "it's martial" or "I can kick your butt" is much more than a diversion if the topic is internal strength, etc. For instance, there can be a good, strong Xingyi or Karate fighter who has no (or minimal) internal strength, yet who will try to divert the topic to "it works and I can kick butt with it". It's sort of the typical situation where a karate dojo gets some big, strong kick-ass student (natural athlete) who wins a few tournaments and suddenly "Our Style Works so it must be the Real Thing!". Really? Can every student in that dojo now kick butt? Of course not... so it's a bogus argument meant to take in beginners.

The questions about Aikido and internal strength are a lot more obvious and ready for discussion than many other arts because the discussion and philosophy in Aikido is so obviously grounded in the terminology and demonstration (by Ueshiba, Tohei, Shioda, et al) of internal strength parameters. Not everything that "works" in Aikido is really internal-strength though.... that's the crux of it, still.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-10-2011, 09:44 PM   #82
hughrbeyer
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Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.

Yes, true enough. The analogy breaks down if you haven't got a shared definition for "works." Even in my own practice, if uke landed on the mat but only because I muscled him down, I don't consider my technique to have "worked."
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Old 07-13-2011, 11:59 AM   #83
Sacha Cloetens
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Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.

Hi Graham,

You stated:

"You know, when I was a baby I learned how to crawl and then I learned how to walk.

I did this through a process called study. What was the purpose of this thing called study? It was to do.

Once I could do then and only then did I know how to walk.

No books, no academia. Natural.

Later I learned how to talk and later than that found there were loads of academics who thought they knew yet couldn't do. Yet they were called experts. A strange world."

I'd like to refer to an interview with Tanaka Bansen , one of the founders direct ( pre-war) students, in Aikido Journal.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=366

"(...) O-Sensei's body at that time was amazing. In the old days there was no bath in the house so we went out to a public bath. However, Sensei said he would not take a bath after somebody else had taken one. So I used to make a special request of the owner of the public bath and took Sensei there around three o'clock in the afternoon. When I used soap to wash his back I was scolded. He said soap was not necessary to wash him. However, when I rubbed his back only with a towel it made a thumping sound. When I told him it was hard for me to wash his back, he responded, "Is it really?" (Laughter) Then, after that, when I touched his back again, it had already become soft. Anyway, Sensei had muscles bulging out all over his body. It was really hard work to take him to a bath and wash him every day. Sensei used soap only to wash his hands and face but never for his body. I stopped using soap on my back from that time on.( ...)"

How does one "do" that ?

How comes one minute O' senseis body feels one way ( Back is rock-hard - making a "thumping" sound - (like cotton over steel maybe- ? ))
and the next minute - at will - it's all soft ?

How come there were "muscles bulging al over his body" - although at that time O sensei was already past his prime & retired in Iwama?

Is there any explanation at all for this phenomenon in your aikido -paradigm?

Could you replicate this?
If not, why not ? - Lack of intuition or lack of schooling ?

Futhermore you refer i. a. to douka as a reliable source of what the founder actually said & stated.

I'd like to refer to Mr Goldsburry's collums " Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation".
Aparantly most of what the founder said or wrote has been edited by others before being published ( in Japanese) & being translated.
To what extend then, are these text reliable as a source for what was actually meant?

As a final point.
To my information (but i could be wrong ) part of the reason O senseis students didn't understand what he was saying, was due to the fact that the students born right before during & after the war didn't recieve much shinto education since it was strongly associated with pre-war "state-shintoism" & therefore they simply lacked his references.
Their basic schooling hadn't been the same.
Pretty much comparable in the west to the knowledge of classical greek & latin nowadays, compared tot 50 years ago.

Regards,
Sacha
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Old 07-14-2011, 12:34 AM   #84
DH
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Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.

Hi Sacha
Of course you might want to consider that there are plenty of people who have power to various degrees and can do things in this vein- like making their body hard through breath power
And who also do not know shinto or Omoto kyo and could care less.
As for the idea that those who learned Shinto or Omoto ad read the classics would then understand the mental/physical processes that got Ueshiba there?
Where are they?

Takeda was known for that as well. feeling soft then wham! hard as nails. So are several DR people.
As I said to those here who go on and on about Ueshiba's supposed "growth" in power after Takeda... due to 'other" practices that were not done in DR. Where are those people?

Just like I ask "Where were the bathrooms?" to those tell me stories...I ask "Where are these guys Ueshiba trained with in these methods who have power?" There are plenty of people studying, reading the classics, chanting, breathing, praying...and?,
All I see ...weirdly...are the guys in DR.
Is it possible that there were martial artists who had that kind of power and remained 'unknown" in martial art circles?
Baloney!!
They would have been known on contact..
Of course there are other methods, no problems with that. But in Japan in that era, outside of aikijujutsu ..where are they?
Dan.

,

Last edited by DH : 07-14-2011 at 12:38 AM.
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Old 07-14-2011, 08:01 AM   #85
Howard Prior
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Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.

Quote:
Sacha Cloetens wrote: View Post
I'd like to refer to an interview with Tanaka Bansen, one of the founders direct ( pre-war) students...
Just a quick note here on a man I remember a bit. I don't think I'm giving anything away in saying that in 1985 Tanaka sensei pooh poohed at least a bit of the practice at the Tokyo honbu dojo. On the other hand, he told me that practicing aikido was sufficient, that no additional outside-of-class practice was necessary. I have no doubt about the veracity of the first sentiment. I think he may, how shall I put it, have been pulling my leg on the second.

Another note: Tanaka sensei maintained that aikido was not about circles, that it was about spirals.

Funny how time plays tricks. I remember the second floor tatami and the doorway to the left of the front of the room that must have led to the changing area. Just where the toilet was, or just where the shower, escapes me.

Howard
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Old 07-14-2011, 11:13 AM   #86
Walker
 
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Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.

"Where is the toilet?"

I think I saw that in a movie once...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1MkjmbdHUM

[note for Allen: look, it's one of those newfangled color talkies!]

-Doug Walker
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Old 07-14-2011, 11:39 AM   #87
DH
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Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.

Hi Doug
Good grief look at that cast!!
Anyway...It's surprisingly effective when you encounter BS, eh?
When suspect stories are told, there are so many unlikely details to be questioned. I go after the odd ball ones.
Dan
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Old 07-14-2011, 01:30 PM   #88
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Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
If folks had to do their Aikido against ukes who had speed and real power in their attacks, there would be a lot of embarrassment.
Dojo Bashing used to be in Vogue!

-

-It seems to be all about semantics!
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Old 07-14-2011, 02:09 PM   #89
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Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.

Quote:
Sacha Cloetens wrote: View Post
How comes one minute O' senseis body feels one way and the next minute - at will - it's all soft ?

How come there were "muscles bulging al over his body"
Tensing or flexing makes your muscles makes them harder. Relaxing them makes them softer. Body type size has a lot to do with it. O'sensei was pretty short. If he was over 6 feet tall, it might have been different.

Training all your life is also a major factor. I used to work for a Kung-Fu/Karate shop and the owner was super solid and up there in age.

I saw him balance on one leg and squat down to the ground with the other leg fully extended, then get back up without using his hands or arms.

A lifetime of training and body conditioning is why he can do that.

-

-It seems to be all about semantics!
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Old 07-14-2011, 02:38 PM   #90
DH
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Quote:
Tim Jester wrote: View Post
Tensing or flexing makes your muscles makes them harder. Relaxing them makes them softer. Body type size has a lot to do with it. O'sensei was pretty short. If he was over 6 feet tall, it might have been different.
Nonsense. And if you think flexing is all there was to it then...well...that explains most martial artists, doesn't it?
Dan
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Old 07-14-2011, 03:17 PM   #91
jester
 
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Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
If you think flexing is all there was to it then...
Dan
I was discussing back washes and old people. Not sure I went much farther into it than that.

Please let me in on what you know.

-

-It seems to be all about semantics!
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Old 07-14-2011, 03:53 PM   #92
DH
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Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote: View Post
I was discussing back washes and old people.
-
I was discussing your founder ya know,,,the t-o-p-i-c.
Quote:
Not sure I went much farther into it than that.
Not sure you are capable of it.
Quote:
Please let me in on what you know.
Cheese is delicious.
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Old 07-14-2011, 03:58 PM   #93
jester
 
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Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I was discussing your founder ya know,,,the t-o-p-i-c.

Not sure you are capable of it.

Cheese is delicious.
Interesting posting style! Since we've never met, I love the way you make assumptions! I guess it's easier than answering basic questions. Great diversionary tactic!!

Next you'll be saying Jack Lalane secretly studied IP.

I do agree with the cheese comment though.

-

-It seems to be all about semantics!
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Old 07-14-2011, 04:06 PM   #94
DH
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Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote: View Post
Interesting posting style! Since we've never met, I love the way you make assumptions! I guess it's easier than answering basic questions. Great diversionary tactic!!

Next you'll be saying Jack Lalane secretly studied IP.

I do agree with the cheese comment though.

-
All you have ever given me was drive-by posts lacking any substance, while challenging what I say, than expecting me to fill you in and tell you what I know. It all sounds strangely familiar.

"Fill me in on what you know"... might work in a school yard. In keeping with that, I might ask..."Why should I?"
I am disinclined to play that game.
After meeting people from the internet face to face, it has had a tendency to unstop certain people's ears while offering them a chance to be more polite.. all at the same time. It's more fun....and sincere.
Dan
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Old 07-14-2011, 04:11 PM   #95
DH
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Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote: View Post
Interesting posting style! Since we've never met, I love the way you make assumptions! I guess it's easier than answering basic questions. Great diversionary tactic!!

Next you'll be saying Jack Lalane secretly studied IP.

I do agree with the cheese comment though.

-
And you avoided the topic, did not add to it, did not acknowledge that you avoided it, did not address that you DO or do not know something of substance as to what may be going on with the idea of soft and hard, for that matter anything of substance other than external.
Drive by
Don't know how Jack entered into the discussion...I was talking about Ueshiba. Ever hear of him?

I like warm brie over crackers, with wine
Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-14-2011 at 04:16 PM.
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Old 07-14-2011, 04:41 PM   #96
jester
 
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Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
"Fill me in on what you know"... might work in a school yard. In keeping with that, I might ask..."Why should I?"
I am disinclined to play that game.
Dan
WTF are you talking about?? You act like I'm trying to steal your secret cheese recipe or something.

I sent you the following PM the other day which you might have missed.
Quote:
jester wrote:
Can you define what you see as IP?

It might make things more clear for me.

Thanks

Tim
In another unrelated thread I never hear the term "Connection" used before so I asked what people think it is and got a straight answer. Now I ask what you think IP is and it turns into a song and dance routine.

I might be a Drive by Poster though. I post on what I think is interesting at the time. Here's my original post. Please let me know what part of your response HERE had substance?

I think the last part of my statement said "A lifetime of training and body conditioning is why he can do that."

That's also where the Jack Lalanne comment came from.

-

-It seems to be all about semantics!
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Old 07-14-2011, 05:01 PM   #97
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I like warm brie over crackers, with wine
Dan
I like pina coladas, and getting caught in the rain.

Have we met somewhere?

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Old 07-14-2011, 05:19 PM   #98
graham christian
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Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.

Quote:
Sacha Cloetens wrote: View Post
Hi Graham,

You stated:

"You know, when I was a baby I learned how to crawl and then I learned how to walk.

I did this through a process called study. What was the purpose of this thing called study? It was to do.

Once I could do then and only then did I know how to walk.

No books, no academia. Natural.

Later I learned how to talk and later than that found there were loads of academics who thought they knew yet couldn't do. Yet they were called experts. A strange world."

I'd like to refer to an interview with Tanaka Bansen , one of the founders direct ( pre-war) students, in Aikido Journal.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=366

"(...) O-Sensei's body at that time was amazing. In the old days there was no bath in the house so we went out to a public bath. However, Sensei said he would not take a bath after somebody else had taken one. So I used to make a special request of the owner of the public bath and took Sensei there around three o'clock in the afternoon. When I used soap to wash his back I was scolded. He said soap was not necessary to wash him. However, when I rubbed his back only with a towel it made a thumping sound. When I told him it was hard for me to wash his back, he responded, "Is it really?" (Laughter) Then, after that, when I touched his back again, it had already become soft. Anyway, Sensei had muscles bulging out all over his body. It was really hard work to take him to a bath and wash him every day. Sensei used soap only to wash his hands and face but never for his body. I stopped using soap on my back from that time on.( ...)"

How does one "do" that ?

How comes one minute O' senseis body feels one way ( Back is rock-hard - making a "thumping" sound - (like cotton over steel maybe- ? ))
and the next minute - at will - it's all soft ?

How come there were "muscles bulging al over his body" - although at that time O sensei was already past his prime & retired in Iwama?

Is there any explanation at all for this phenomenon in your aikido -paradigm?

Could you replicate this?
If not, why not ? - Lack of intuition or lack of schooling ?

Futhermore you refer i. a. to douka as a reliable source of what the founder actually said & stated.

I'd like to refer to Mr Goldsburry's collums " Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation".
Aparantly most of what the founder said or wrote has been edited by others before being published ( in Japanese) & being translated.
To what extend then, are these text reliable as a source for what was actually meant?

As a final point.
To my information (but i could be wrong ) part of the reason O senseis students didn't understand what he was saying, was due to the fact that the students born right before during & after the war didn't recieve much shinto education since it was strongly associated with pre-war "state-shintoism" & therefore they simply lacked his references.
Their basic schooling hadn't been the same.
Pretty much comparable in the west to the knowledge of classical greek & latin nowadays, compared tot 50 years ago.

Regards,
Sacha
Hi Sacha.
Not quite sure why you quote my post and then talk about learning with and without shinto education and different schooling. My point was about study without books and schooling.

On how does one do that? (relating to O'Sensei and bath)

That sounds so simple to me I don't see the big emphasis. Of course I could replicate this, it's not rocket science. I think you have too much significance on it. Plus it's not schooling or intuition obviously, It's someone DOING something and thus is ability.

Finally to do with translations. ' Most of' type statements are too vague for me to give any credence to. That comes under 'generalization'

Taking such negative generalizations and concluding that therefore anything recorded in such a fashion is very suspect actually makes translators sound like a waste of time. So from Buddha to Ghandhi to any past figure of different language.....huh, need I say more.

Another point is if a person is so sure of a mistranslation then they can print the same thing with the changed or missing words can't they?

It's very simple really. A word can't have 2000 meanings so you can repeat the sentence and indeed paragrah with one meaning and see if it makes sense, and then do the same with the other meanings and end up with the right usage more often than not if you have the vaguest idea of what the persons talking about.

Anyway, I have already explained about this with other factors to enter into it so I need say no more on the subject.

Regards.G.
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Old 07-14-2011, 05:48 PM   #99
Lorel Latorilla
Location: Osaka
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Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote: View Post
WTF are you talking about?? You act like I'm trying to steal your secret cheese recipe or something.

I sent you the following PM the other day which you might have missed.

In another unrelated thread I never hear the term "Connection" used before so I asked what people think it is and got a straight answer. Now I ask what you think IP is and it turns into a song and dance routine.

I might be a Drive by Poster though. I post on what I think is interesting at the time. Here's my original post. Please let me know what part of your response HERE had substance?

I think the last part of my statement said "A lifetime of training and body conditioning is why he can do that."

That's also where the Jack Lalanne comment came from.

-
I dont think Dan likes to get it in with new posters who have a bone to pick, so I feel compelled to write some amateur thoughts.

But basically, it's not that simple--a lifetime of training and conditioning will not give you the same body that Ueshiba had. When guys talk about having "soft" and "hard" here, "hard" does not mean stiff to the point where it is hard for you to move. It is a relaxed "hardness" that I believe, if I were to hazard a guess (Im not at this level yet), comes from coiling (some people call it winding) the fascia that lies under your skin. I dont know the physiological reason why it makes the body hard, but it just does. If you go on youtube and watch Okinawan Karate peeps do this standing exercise called "sanchin", they're doing some "coiling" stuff. Sometimes you see people hitting them and you can see how "hard" they are.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 07-14-2011, 07:08 PM   #100
JW
 
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Location: San Diego CA USA
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Re: Terms: I.S., I.P., Neijin, Fajin, Aiki, etc.

Hi Tim, if I may interject..
By the numbers under their names, Dan has about 2600 posts here, and Mike has 4000. Now granted about 1000 of each of those are probably them yelling at each other! But that aside, there remains about 4600 posts here pretty much all dedicated to answering your question!

So although it may seem frustrating at first (believe me, been there), if you are really interested, the answer to your question is quite thoroughly laid out. It's just that it doesn't start with a 3-line PM that took about 6.2 seconds to write.. it starts with weeks of catch-up reading.. then some self-questioning... then some exploration and turning your life upside down......
Anyway just talking from my limited personal experience.
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