Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Language

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-30-2011, 09:03 AM   #1
kyu mg
Dojo: New School Aikido, Stockton
Location: stockton,CA
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 16
United_States
Offline
Terminology - Kyudansha?

How do I refer to myself as Student....
Is Kyudansha proper..?
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 02:11 PM   #2
ninjaqutie
 
ninjaqutie's Avatar
Dojo: Searching for a new home
Location: Delaware (<3 still in Oregon!)
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,003
United_States
Offline
Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?

No idea. Hopefully someone else can answer because all I know are uchideshi and sotodeshi, which are inside and outside students, but I don't know if deshi is a litteral translation for student or not.

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 03:41 PM   #3
Shadowfax
 
Shadowfax's Avatar
Dojo: Allegheny Aikido, Pitsburgh PA
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 884
United_States
Offline
Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?

According to Stefan Stenudd's excellent aikido glossary deshi does indeed translate as simply student. From what I was able to dig up using Google kyudansha means a person or group of people wearing a white belt.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 04:27 PM   #4
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,941
Offline
Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?

to answer the original question: "student" has always worked for me :-)

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 05:11 PM   #5
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,632
United_States
Offline
Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?

Mudansha is a term I've often heard for those ranked below black belt. I guess it means "mu"="without" and "dansha"= those with rank; people without rank.

  Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 05:43 PM   #6
Dave de Vos
 
Dave de Vos's Avatar
Dojo: Shoryukai, Breda (aikikai) & Aiki-Budocentrum Breda (yoseikan)
Location: Baarle-Nassau
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 335
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?

According to this recent post by Peter Goldsbury, kyudansha means "those with kyu grade or dan rank", which would be all aikidoka except mukyusha, I guess.

Last edited by Dave de Vos : 06-30-2011 at 05:47 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2011, 02:24 AM   #7
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,000
Japan
Offline
Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?

Do you mean in the dojo, or as a member of the dojo? Why do you need to use a Japanese term? Is it some rule of the dojo? Or is that your teacher is Japanese and expects you to use Japanese terms?

There is no general Japanese term for a student of a martial art, only the usual equivalents for students at college or pupils at school. In any case, I think most of my own aikido students, if asked, would say something like, ‘I am a member of X Dojo,’ or ‘I practice aikido at X Dojo.’ I have never heard the word deshi used either, probably because I doubt whether any of them would think of themselves as deshi. I was once asked by telephone of I accepted deshi; I said No.

Best wishes,

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2011, 07:57 AM   #8
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,556
United_States
Offline
Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
I have never heard the word deshi used either, probably because I doubt whether any of them would think of themselves as deshi. I was once asked by telephone of I accepted deshi; I said No.

Best wishes,
I have always hesitated to use the word deshi because I have rarely heard it used by those I know who come from a Japanese background (from my experience in martial arts and Japanese crafts). Uchi-deshi is a more specific term although I've heard it used to describe what I'd call an apprentice who didn't live with the teacher. In that case it seemed more about his "status" with the teacher rather than the details about his living conditions. I've heard "soto-deshi" used in a sense that seemed to imply all the students. So I guess what I'm admitting is that I've simply never been clear as to what deshi means in the first place.

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2011, 09:21 AM   #9
Josh Reyer
 
Josh Reyer's Avatar
Location: Aichi-ken, Nagoya-shi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 644
Japan
Offline
Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?

"Deshi" is commonly used in traditional contexts, and implies one has attached oneself to one particular teacher for instruction. It's not commonly used in modern budo, where people tend to belong to organizations rather than learn at the feet of one particular teacher. It's still used in koryu, by which I mean not just bujutsu but also tea, ikebana, and similar traditional schools where there's a transmission in a lineage. Also in sumo. By far the most common place for regular folks to hear the word "deshi" is in comic-entertainer contexts (owarai). There, it is still common for an aspiring comedian to ask one particular veteran rakugoka or manzai-shi to train them in the art of comedy. They are considered and refer to themselves as "deshi" of that particular veteran.

There is a trend of older words such as "deshi", "monjin" or "monkasei" falling out of use. I was recently on TV during a short segment on our school, and I was captioned as "Amerika-jin seito". "Seito" is a common word to mean "student", but usually used in contexts of, say, jr. and sr. high schools, cram schools, cooking schools, things like that. "Monkasei" or "deshi" would probably have been more appropriate, but there was a certain dumbing down in effect.

Back to the original poster's question, "kyudansha" is a term to describe the general population of students of kyu and dan rank, and not appropriate for describing one person.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2011, 09:52 AM   #10
Pauliina Lievonen
 
Pauliina Lievonen's Avatar
Dojo: Jiki Shin Kan Utrecht
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 560
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?

When I think of the languages that I speak regularly, I can't really think of a context where I would call myself a student of aikido.

In Finnish I'd say something like "Minš harrastan aikidoa" which translates as "I do aikido (as a hobby)".

In Dutch I'd just say "Ik doe aikido" "I do aikido". In English I guess it's more correct English to say I practice aikido in that case?

To call myself a student in one of those two languages would sound like I study it more or less full time in some kind of an institution like a college or something.

Though native Dutch speakers might disagree. Feel free.

kvaak
Pauliina
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2011, 10:04 AM   #11
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,556
United_States
Offline
Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote: View Post
"Deshi" is commonly used in traditional contexts, and implies one has attached oneself to one particular teacher for instruction. It's not commonly used in modern budo, where people tend to belong to organizations rather than learn at the feet of one particular teacher. It's still used in koryu, by which I mean not just bujutsu but also tea, ikebana, and similar traditional schools where there's a transmission in a lineage. Also in sumo.
Thanks, Joshua, that clarifies quite a bit and fits well with how I've heard it used in sword crafts (polishers, kinko, smiths, sayashi, etc.) often where there are also issues of lineage (in one sense or another). It usually seemed to be about personal transmission from one to another and not just "I study this or that" in a general sense. Makes sense. Thanks again.

Last edited by Keith Larman : 07-01-2011 at 10:06 AM. Reason: Clarify a few things.

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2011, 10:29 AM   #12
carina reinhardt
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 428
Spain
Offline
Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?

In spanish an "estudiante"(student) is for the university, we say "alumno de aikido"(pupil of aikido). In our dojo there are the hakamas(students who wear that clothing) and the non-hakamas(the others).
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2011, 11:28 PM   #13
Chuck Clark
 
Chuck Clark's Avatar
Dojo: Jiyushinkan
Location: Monroe, Washington
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,134
United_States
Offline
Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?

I've heard "shoshinsha" and "nyumonsha", both used I think as terms for students with a particular state of "open mind/willingness to learn", etc. My teacher, when I was 10-14 years of age, referred to me as "monjin"... I never really knew what it meant until years later.

I suspect that the best word is whatever is appropriate for the language that you speak while you're practicing. When I first got to France, I was sort of dumbfounded when they asked me if I had a "kimono" for practice and very few people used Japanese names for waza. They used numbers instead. Most importantly, I understood immediately what they were talking about when going for beer after practice. :-)

Best regards,

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2011, 12:41 AM   #14
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,000
Japan
Offline
Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?

Quote:
Chuck Clark wrote: View Post
I've heard "shoshinsha" and "nyumonsha", both used I think as terms for students with a particular state of "open mind/willingness to learn", etc. My teacher, when I was 10-14 years of age, referred to me as "monjin"... I never really knew what it meant until years later.

I suspect that the best word is whatever is appropriate for the language that you speak while you're practicing. When I first got to France, I was sort of dumbfounded when they asked me if I had a "kimono" for practice and very few people used Japanese names for waza. They used numbers instead. Most importantly, I understood immediately what they were talking about when going for beer after practice. :-)

Best regards,
Hello Chuck,

FWIW (and totally off topic),

1. The 初心者マーク (shoshinsha mark) is the yellow and green symbol which has to be attached to the rear of a car when it is being driven by someone who has just passed a driving test. People give these drivers a wide birth.

2. 入門 nyuumon) also refers to textbooks that give an introduction to a subject.


Hello Keith (slightly less off-topic, not being directly relevant to the OP's question),

The Japanese meaning of deshi expands/amplifies Josh's comment:

弟子(弟や子のように師に従う者の意)師に従って教えを受ける人。
Deshi (ototo ya ko no youni shi ni shitagau mono no i) shi ni shitagatte oshie wo ukeru hito.
Deshi (meaning someone who accepts / obeys the teacher like a younger brother or child [accepts and obeys the teaching of the father]): a person who accepts / obeys the teaching of the teacher.

The definition does not touch on the distinctions between 内弟子 uchi (live-in) deshi; 外弟子 soto-deshi, living outside the teacher's house; and 通い弟子 kayoi (commuting) deshi, like Katsuaki Asai, who lived just across the street from the Hombu and so lived at home.
There is also a nuance to 師 shi, that is conveyed by the compounds in which it is used, 師範 shihan, being one of very many (the compounds relevant to you being 研ぎ師 togishi: polisher of swords, or 打ち物師 uchimonoshi: swordmaker).

There are several major assumptions behind this Kojien definition, and the terms used, that are relevant to Morihei Ueshiba.

The first is that the teacher possesses a body of knowledge and skill that is available only by following a certain method. You can acquire the knowledge only by becoming a deshi and going through the process of learning it in the way exemplified by the teacher.
The second is that it is assumed that the person who possesses the knowledge--and has become famous enough to be asked to have deshi, can actually teach them the knowledge / skill possessed.
The third is that it makes very little sense to ask whether the teacher is a good teacher or not, whether he has a good teaching methodology, or follows a syllabus.
The fourth is that it is the teacher who decides or not whether to accept deshi and, further, whether to teach all the knowledge / skill or only a portion.

Finally, the comment made to me by the late Kisshomaru Ueshiba (well after the death of his father), that he himself never had uchi-deshi, makes a whole lot of sense.

Best wishes,

PAG

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2011, 07:45 AM   #15
Josh Reyer
 
Josh Reyer's Avatar
Location: Aichi-ken, Nagoya-shi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 644
Japan
Offline
Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Thanks, Joshua, that clarifies quite a bit and fits well with how I've heard it used in sword crafts (polishers, kinko, smiths, sayashi, etc.) often where there are also issues of lineage (in one sense or another). It usually seemed to be about personal transmission from one to another and not just "I study this or that" in a general sense. Makes sense. Thanks again.
Right. I probably should have mentioned this in my previous post, but while "deshi" and "monkasei", etc., mean "student", they are only used in describing one's relationship with one's teacher.

One could say, "I'm a deshi of XX-sensei." One could not say, "I'm a deshi of aikido."

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2011, 09:46 AM   #16
niall
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
niall's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 394
Japan
Offline
Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
According to this recent post by Peter Goldsbury, kyudansha means those with kyu grade or dan rank.
As an aside kyudansha is rarely used. Yudansha is very common. At the Kodokan in Tokyo I think the changing rooms are classified as kodansha 高段者 high dan grade holders, yudansha 有段者 dan grade holders and ippan 一般 ordinary - as a Japanese friend of mine used to say, ippan people. Women have just one changing room.

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
w b yeats


aikiweb blog|wordpress blog
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2011, 11:08 AM   #17
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,632
United_States
Offline
Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?

Sounds like "deshi" translates quite well as "disciple" in English.

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2011, 12:51 PM   #18
Shannon Frye
Dojo: Aikido Fellowship of VA / Chesapeake Va
Location: Virginia
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 182
United_States
Offline
Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?

I agree with Chris. When I hear "deshi", to me it carries connotations of being a 'disciple', implying more than just being a student. It carries more of a 'devotional' undertone.

I've heard mudansha used, meaning 'those without', meaning those without dan ranking. In my current dojo, they use the term "kyudansha", meaning all those below dan ranking (yudansha).

If you speak english - when in doubt, say it in english. It'll prevent misunderstandings.

"In the end there can be only one"

www.AikidoFellowship.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2011, 09:30 PM   #19
Josh Reyer
 
Josh Reyer's Avatar
Location: Aichi-ken, Nagoya-shi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 644
Japan
Offline
Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?

I'd say that "disciple" could be rendered as "deshi" in Japanese (and it is; Jesus' disciples are referred to as his "deshi"), but "deshi" doesn't always mean disciple. It also has senses of "pupil" or "apprentice", without devotional nuance. Well, check that; it depends on how you define "devotional".

"Mudansha" literally means "without-dan rank-person/people". "Yudansha", conversely, means "with-dan rank-person/people". "Kyudansha" means "kyu and dan rank people", so if your dojo is using it to refer to only people below dan rank, they are using it wrong.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2011, 10:54 PM   #20
Shannon Frye
Dojo: Aikido Fellowship of VA / Chesapeake Va
Location: Virginia
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 182
United_States
Offline
Re: Terminology - Kyudansha?

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote: View Post
"Kyudansha" means "kyu and dan rank people", so if your dojo is using it to refer to only people below dan rank, they are using it wrong.
You are correct. I meant to say "yuukyuusha", not kyudansha. Thanks for catching my mistake.

Here's a relevent thread where Mr. Goldsbury defined several of the terms and their meanings.
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19914

"In the end there can be only one"

www.AikidoFellowship.com
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Mudansha vs Kyudansha Shannon Frye Language 6 07-04-2011 12:02 AM
Use of Japanese terminology... David Humm Teaching 18 09-29-2006 06:51 AM
The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises Talon General 695 08-09-2006 06:14 AM
Poll: Do you think we should rename aikido terminology from Japanese to other languages? AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 36 11-12-2005 06:34 PM
Names of aikido techniques- how did they arise? bujin Techniques 18 03-19-2002 11:07 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:42 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate