Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-29-2011, 02:26 PM   #51
dps
 
dps's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,325
Offline
Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Here are som interesting demonstrations about Kuzushi;

From Kaze Uta Budo Kai

http://www.kazeutabudokai.com/phpBB3...hp?f=42&t=1796

http://www.kazeutabudokai.com/phpBB3...hp?f=42&t=1933

dps

Last edited by dps : 06-29-2011 at 02:37 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 02:44 PM   #52
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,225
United_States
Offline
Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
not necessary luck. necessary will. as in willing to die to take the other person down with you, i.e. almost suicidal. can't fight with that sort of people if you are not willing to risk everything. log bridge concept. on death ground, fight.
Interesting; I'm not familiar with the log bridge concept, but I agree will-power is an important thing. When in serious trouble I was raised to go for the throat, so to speak. My understanding of Aikido is that this is in keeping with that whole "life and death in an instant," thing. Plan for the worst (e.g. "rip his guts out"); hope for the best (e.g. make a new friend with shiatsu ). Whatever the case, it's probably best to avoid getting hurt, but if I must get hurt, I generally intend to teach my assailant that it's dangerous to harm nice short people...something along the lines of the concept of Natural Consequences: this little bit of the universe doesn't like it when you try to hurt nice short people.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 03:12 PM   #53
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,339
Offline
Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Interesting; I'm not familiar with the log bridge concept,
I assume this refers to Robin Hood facing Little John on a log bridge. SOMEBODY has to end up in the water.
Apropos of which, George Ledyard addresses this in his dvd on "entering" in which he points out that on the katatetori irimi-tenkan blend exercise you often see nage simply entering alongside uke - if they were on a log bridge, nage would be the one in the water - better to connect with and disrupt uke (my choice of words, not his - I'm not watching it at the moment ) so uke is the one in the water.

Last edited by Janet Rosen : 06-29-2011 at 03:13 PM. Reason: spelling

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 03:43 PM   #54
jester
 
jester's Avatar
Location: Texas
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 329
United_States
Offline
Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
Something also to consider. If the bigger, stronger, more skilled guy is acting in anger and aggression he is not in full control
Who's to say he needs FULL control to do anything?

Some people work pretty damn well driven by anger. Fine motor skills (full control??) are reduced on both sides.

You might mean bigger, stronger etc and very drunk!

-

-It seems to be all about semantics!
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 04:33 PM   #55
Mario Tobias
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 261
Philippines
Offline
Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

In addition and just a brief explanation of kuzushi. From a physics point of view which I will explain in laymans terms, kuzushi is the misalignment of a person's center of mass with his center of gravity.

A person is balanced when the center of mass (CoM) and center of gravity (CoG) coincide into one point which is the hara or tanden. This is the significance of the hara in the physics context. A person's center of mass location doesn't change but the center of gravity does. The center of gravity may lie within the person or outside the person. I think this is what a lot of people call 3rd points. There are numerous (infinite imho) 3rd points (CoG) but only one center of mass. You are strong when "you maintain the one point". ie hara/center of mass/center of gravity are one location.

A person is in a state of unbalance when these 2 centers stray away from each other. Unbalancing is achieved by misaligning the spine from an upright position to an angle (even a very small one) so that the CoG starts to stray away from the CoM. And this is again achieved by connection (musubi) with the other parts of the body (typically the arm, wrist, hand, palm) to "start" misaligning the spine and connecting to/unbalancing uke's hara. That is why once balance is taken, you can easily do techniques on partners even without "grabbing" any body part of uke, just leading and letting gravity do the rest. This is also part of the reason why we want our backs straight in aikido because of this spinal alignment.

There are a lot of escoteric explanations which can be explained with physical terms if you just think about it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 05:08 PM   #56
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,225
United_States
Offline
Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
I assume this refers to Robin Hood facing Little John on a log bridge. SOMEBODY has to end up in the water.
Apropos of which, George Ledyard addresses this in his dvd on "entering" in which he points out that on the katatetori irimi-tenkan blend exercise you often see nage simply entering alongside uke - if they were on a log bridge, nage would be the one in the water - better to connect with and disrupt uke (my choice of words, not his - I'm not watching it at the moment ) so uke is the one in the water.
Oodelally! I like that analogy. Thanks Janet!

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 05:58 PM   #57
JW
 
JW's Avatar
Location: San Diego CA USA
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 561
Offline
Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Still short on time but just some quick notes. Part of my main idea was to talk about mechanism. I know the mechanism by which I want to do things in my practice-- I can describe kuzushi, I can describe mechanics, and even the role of misogi and how it has a practical meaning. But I want to hear others' descriptions of mechanism (is it really different from how I would describe it, or is it actually the same), and that is what people are starting to do here, so thanks.

Mario-- using physical terms to describe mechanism is excellent, thanks. But I think you have some physical concepts wrong. The CoG is always colinear with your CoM and the earth's CoM. You and the earth share a single CoG but the 2 of you have 1 CoM each. But I think I know what you are trying to say, which is that your CoM has to be over your base, yes? But I think we should nail down the correct technical terms.

Carina-- if you have a mechanism for how to do what you said about 2x or 3x your weight, that would be interesting. Or, if you can think of a mechanism for how "pretending" to do that is useful, I think that would be really interesting.

Mary-- you are talking about making the right decisions throughout an interaction? i.e. aikido works via you learning to make appropriate choices in an "on-line" manner? (Meaning choosing as the situation develops, more than having a plan)

Chris-- this is interesting, how does it happen? Well there might be too much to get into. But in general-- do you mean making choices on-line, as in the OODA loop?

Thanks all!
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 06:04 PM   #58
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,221
Japan
Offline
Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
I assume this refers to Robin Hood facing Little John on a log bridge. SOMEBODY has to end up in the water.
Apropos of which, George Ledyard addresses this in his dvd on "entering" in which he points out that on the katatetori irimi-tenkan blend exercise you often see nage simply entering alongside uke - if they were on a log bridge, nage would be the one in the water - better to connect with and disrupt uke (my choice of words, not his - I'm not watching it at the moment ) so uke is the one in the water.
Hello Janet,

When Saito Morihiro Sensei told the story (standing right agaisnt the wall of a room to represent the confined space of the bridge), it was Benkei on the Gojo Bridge in Kyoto during the Gempei war. Benkei used his superior size--and long staff--to defeat 999 swordsmen, but was defeated by Minamoto Yoshitsune and became his disciple.

PAG

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Kokusai Dojo,
Hiroshima,
Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 06:59 PM   #59
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,339
Offline
Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Hello Janet,

When Saito Morihiro Sensei told the story (standing right agaisnt the wall of a room to represent the confined space of the bridge), it was Benkei on the Gojo Bridge in Kyoto during the Gempei war. Benkei used his superior size--and long staff--to defeat 999 swordsmen, but was defeated by Minamoto Yoshitsune and became his disciple.

PAG
Ah, Peter, but Errol Flynn is so much sexier....

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 07:28 PM   #60
jester
 
jester's Avatar
Location: Texas
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 329
United_States
Offline
Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Ah, Peter, but Errol Flynn is so much sexier....
Green tights or white Fundoshi?

Thoughts?

-It seems to be all about semantics!
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 08:11 PM   #61
Shadowfax
 
Shadowfax's Avatar
Dojo: Allegheny Aikido, Pitsburgh PA
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 942
United_States
Offline
Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote: View Post
Who's to say he needs FULL control to do anything?

Some people work pretty damn well driven by anger. Fine motor skills (full control??) are reduced on both sides.

You might mean bigger, stronger etc and very drunk!

-
Never said he needed to be in full control. But someone not in full control makes mistakes. The kind of mistakes that someone who is calm and in full control can take advantage of if they are paying attention. And by take advantage I don't necessarily mean beating the snot out of the guy. Actually the very drunk ones are the easiest to deal with. The schizophrenic ones can be a little more tricky.

I
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 08:52 PM   #62
BKK
Dojo: Elkton Ki Aikido, Elkton Va.
Location: Elkton, Va.
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 10
United_States
Offline
Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

There are a lot of good things being said here, and my ideas on this aren't much different from a lot of it, but I'll add my two cents anyway...

George Simcox sensei, who was the Chief Instructor of the Virginia Ki Society at one time, once said something along the lines of "I don't need to out-muscle someone, I just out-relax them." And that is an important part of what it takes, of course, but it isn't the only thing.

Another part is that a fight, or any conflict, requires two opposing forces, and opposing ideas, to happen. So part of the solution is physical, and part is mental. If I am trying to blend physically, but in my mind I am still opposing, not accepting, my attacker, it's not going to work so well.

A lot of problems arise when we try to control either the attack or the attacker. Not so hard if you are stronger, not going to happen if you are weaker. So instead, control your response to the attack, moving correctly for the technique, and allowing the technique to work, instead of trying to make the technique work. If you do this, you will find that it is easy to "out-relax" your attacker as well.

Brian
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 09:28 PM   #63
BKK
Dojo: Elkton Ki Aikido, Elkton Va.
Location: Elkton, Va.
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 10
United_States
Offline
Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Quote:
Mario Tobias wrote: View Post
In addition and just a brief explanation of kuzushi. From a physics point of view which I will explain in laymans terms, kuzushi is the misalignment of a person's center of mass with his center of gravity.

A person is balanced when the center of mass (CoM) and center of gravity (CoG) coincide into one point which is the hara or tanden. This is the significance of the hara in the physics context. A person's center of mass location doesn't change but the center of gravity does. The center of gravity may lie within the person or outside the person. I think this is what a lot of people call 3rd points. There are numerous (infinite imho) 3rd points (CoG) but only one center of mass. You are strong when "you maintain the one point". ie hara/center of mass/center of gravity are one location.
Hi Mario,

Actually, your center of mass can and does move, and can be outside or inside your body depending on what position your body is in. In fact, the center of mass and center of gravity are essentially the same thing. Center of gravity refers to the center of the weight of the body. Weight and mass are not the same thing. You need gravity to have weight, you don't need it to have mass. For our purposes, I think they can be considered the same (since we are always operating within a gravitational field), and will move together, depending on the position of the body, but not dependent on whether the body is in balance or not.

You achieve kuzushi when you move the center of mass to a position outside of the supporting structure (legs usually, but not always), or you move the supporting structure out from under the center of mass.

Also, your one point is not necessarily at your center of mass. It's an imaginary point, after all, and is where ever you imagine it to be, and if you are standing upright you would probably want it to coincide with your center of mass, for most purposes. OTOH, during a forward roll, for example, your center of mass (and center of gravity) would be outside your body (near the center of the approximate circle formed by your body) but you would probably still want to imagine your one point to be in your lower abdomen. I would anyway. :-)

Brian

Last edited by BKK : 06-29-2011 at 09:31 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 09:52 PM   #64
jester
 
jester's Avatar
Location: Texas
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 329
United_States
Offline
Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
But someone not in full control makes mistakes. The kind of mistakes that someone who is calm and in full control can take advantage of if they are paying attention.
Can you say that if your attacked unexpectedly that you'll be calm and in full control?

Seriously??

-

-It seems to be all about semantics!
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 09:52 PM   #65
Mario Tobias
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 261
Philippines
Offline
Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
The CoG is always colinear with your CoM and the earth's CoM.
No, The CoG does not necessarily lie on the object (ie the body). Once you are unbalanced, the CoM still is in the body but the CoG will lie outside your body so it will not be colinear with that (there will now be 2 axes), that is what I was saying about misalignment which will lead to you benig unbalanced.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 10:32 PM   #66
JW
 
JW's Avatar
Location: San Diego CA USA
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 561
Offline
Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Quote:
Mario Tobias wrote: View Post
No, The CoG does not necessarily lie on the object (ie the body). Once you are unbalanced, the CoM still is in the body but the CoG will lie outside your body so it will not be colinear with that (there will now be 2 axes), that is what I was saying about misalignment which will lead to you benig unbalanced.
There's bigger fish to fry in the thread but sometimes a little detail keeps nagging me. Your CoM moves freely. The CoG for the you+earth system is waaaay under the ground near the earth's CoM. Anyway, just nitpicking. G'night all..
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 10:41 PM   #67
Mario Tobias
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 261
Philippines
Offline
Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

jonathan,

I'll concede this time

cheers,
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 01:32 AM   #68
guest1234567
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 428
Spain
Offline
Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post

Carina-- if you have a mechanism for how to do what you said about 2x or 3x your weight, that would be interesting. Or, if you can think of a mechanism for how "pretending" to do that is useful, I think that would be really interesting.
Hi Jonathan,
I don't think I could explain it, because I don't know how to do it and because I have not enough vocabulary. We did a few exercises like embrace our uke and bringing him to the floor with our weight, as I said it takes many years. My teacher does it, he is a slim person(aprox 70 kg) and always takes the heaviest ukes(100 kg) we have, and even they won't let him he always managed to control them.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 03:35 AM   #69
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,266
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote: View Post
Green tights or white Fundoshi?

Thoughts?
Tim,
Why not wear both?, Cheers, Joe
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 04:22 AM   #70
danj
Dojo: Brisbane Aikido Republic
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 298
Australia
Offline
Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Quote:
Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
Hi Jonathan,
I don't think I could explain it, because I don't know how to do it and because I have not enough vocabulary. We did a few exercises like embrace our uke and bringing him to the floor with our weight, as I said it takes many years. My teacher does it, he is a slim person(aprox 70 kg) and always takes the heaviest ukes(100 kg) we have, and even they won't let him he always managed to control them.
i suggest embracing uke moves ukes CoM outside their base of support (the imaginary area between ukes feet and respective toes and heels) now that they are unbalanced and toppled they will need to step or fall. At this point a mostly downward directioned force will accelerate the fall such that recovery is difficult.

Dropping a 70kg mass even just 5cm will generate for a short period of time an effortlessly large amount of downward force, though sometimes its helpful to think of power transfer to really get an idea of the dynamic interaction.


Doing all this on the mat is harder though ...

dan

Last edited by danj : 06-30-2011 at 04:25 AM. Reason: typos

  Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 04:53 AM   #71
guest1234567
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 428
Spain
Offline
Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Thanks for the explanation
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 05:36 AM   #72
Shadowfax
 
Shadowfax's Avatar
Dojo: Allegheny Aikido, Pitsburgh PA
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 942
United_States
Offline
Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote: View Post
Can you say that if your attacked unexpectedly that you'll be calm and in full control?

Seriously??

-
If you are attacked unexpectedly you are not paying attention and therefore already not in full control. When you regularly work with 1,000 pounds of unpredictable you lean how to be aware, stay calm and in control in sudden situations...or you get hurt.

I have been in situations where there was a pretty serious threat in which I stayed loose and relaxed and in control and the threat was withdrawn.If I had reacted in fear or if I had pushed back things may well have come out very differently. This was before I took up aikido. The last guy who got in my face found himself pinned against a wall. Because I was in control I didn't deck him. It was pretty close though. I need to keep working on it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 06:33 AM   #73
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,182
United_States
Offline
Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
I assume this refers to Robin Hood facing Little John on a log bridge. SOMEBODY has to end up in the water.
Or nobody. Or somebody can step back to let the other person pass. Or you can both decide that rather than one (or both) of you getting wet and wounded, you'd much prefer to go get a beer. A lot of people like to call that "aikido"; I don't know that it's necessary to fancy it up. Aikido isn't the birthplace of common sense, keeping your nose clean and keeping your hands to yourself.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 06:40 AM   #74
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,182
United_States
Offline
Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
Mary-- you are talking about making the right decisions throughout an interaction? i.e. aikido works via you learning to make appropriate choices in an "on-line" manner? (Meaning choosing as the situation develops, more than having a plan)
Sure, but at the same time, things happen too fast in the moment for you to be able to reason it out. So, that's why we train. It's just that in order to be effective, you can't just train in the techniques, you also have to train in the intangibles and less-tangibles. "When" is an intangible element, but as soon as you make a choice about when, you start to solidify the less-tangibles and gradually narrow your choice of the tangibles. That's not to say that your choices might not open up later, but that would be the result of a wise choice made earlier on.

(And of course, "the earlier, the better" is not true. Don't believe it? Do weapons work.)
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 07:05 AM   #75
jester
 
jester's Avatar
Location: Texas
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 329
United_States
Offline
Re: Overcoming aggressive attack without superior strength

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
The last guy who got in my face found himself pinned against a wall. Because I was in control I didn't deck him. It was pretty close though. I need to keep working on it.
Ha! Awesome!

-

-It seems to be all about semantics!
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
No Touch Throws pezalinski Techniques 237 04-14-2011 10:17 AM
Is Aikido effective for police? erogers General 136 07-13-2008 07:00 AM
Value of atemi DustinAcuff Techniques 67 06-08-2007 08:35 AM
committed attack/sensitive ukemi paradox Janet Rosen Training 30 10-13-2005 07:18 PM
The Paradox Of Committed attack Chris Birke General 28 04-13-2004 06:58 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:05 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2018 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2018 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate