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Old 06-27-2011, 08:56 AM   #51
lbb
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Re: What Is Your Frame Of Reference For Understanding Aikido?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
As I said, I think people need to have their feet put to the fire and be decisive other than to keep quoting him to validate what ever it is they're trying to say, which most of the time leads to the contradictions which were his life.
Do you think you are capable of "recreating his vision in all its detail?"
Oh, agreed -- I think trying to do "O Sensei's aikido" is a fruitless endeavor, because we don't really know what that is. So, you can take the academic/scholarly approach and do a lot of research, which isn't necessarily a bad thing in and of itself -- Donn Draeger comes to mind. On the other hand, I never got the sense that Draeger's purpose was to find some fountainhead of Asian martial arts in order to be able to practice it -- he just wanted to investigate the history of martial arts styles in Asia.

On the other hand, when you talk about putting feet to the fire, doesn't that raise the question of just what the "fire" is?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
For those making claims of physical understanding, they should in- whatever part- be able to demonstrate at least some of his physical power, and that power should be greater in those training the longest. If not, what's up with that?
Ok, so in that case the "fire" is defined by those who are making the claims? That makes sense.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
If not and they want to walk away and stand on their own and do what ever it is they do, what's wrong with that? Although I do think its odd that people claiming spiritual understanding are dressing up in Japanese clothing and waving weapons (that they clearly have no clue how to use) in the air and running around in a circle. I think it's an embarrassment to him and themselves, but whatever.
Is your beef that Japanese clothing is incompatible with spiritual understanding? Or (as I suspect) is it that putting on Japanese clothing does not create spiritual understanding?
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Old 06-27-2011, 09:21 AM   #52
DH
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Re: What Is Your Frame Of Reference For Understanding Aikido?

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Oh, agreed -- I think trying to do "O Sensei's aikido" is a fruitless endeavor, because we don't really know what that is. So, you can take the academic/scholarly approach and do a lot of research, which isn't necessarily a bad thing in and of itself -- Donn Draeger comes to mind. On the other hand, I never got the sense that Draeger's purpose was to find some fountainhead of Asian martial arts in order to be able to practice it -- he just wanted to investigate the history of martial arts styles in Asia.

On the other hand, when you talk about putting feet to the fire, doesn't that raise the question of just what the "fire" is?
Ok, so in that case the "fire" is defined by those who are making the claims? That makes sense.

Is your beef that Japanese clothing is incompatible with spiritual understanding? Or (as I suspect) is it that putting on Japanese clothing does not create spiritual understanding?
I pretty much agree with all of that, Mary. I think many people have a tendency to mimic the movement and dress of teachers they like, but lack the power therein.
I don't have a beef with budo or budo clothing; there just isn't much to say about the travesty of some people's actions; turning in circles with wooden weapon replicas (and handling them as if they were an alien thing) while dressed in a pair of cullottes; while claming a spiritual and martial understanding of some sort.
A friend of mine calls it "dressing up and playing cowboys and indians" on any other day (and she wears them-as do I- in another art). We're alll geeks!
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 06-27-2011 at 09:31 AM.
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Old 06-27-2011, 09:46 AM   #53
Anthony Loeppert
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Re: What Is Your Frame Of Reference For Understanding Aikido?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Aiki is living free in the world. Ueshiba caught his part of the vision, and all people do is try to copy his vision, that they can never have, instead of walking free.
Cheers
Dan
Sometimes I'm bothered that some do revere him as a messiah figure (without the resurrection). If science was focused in this backwards manner we'd still be celebrating fire and the wheel on a daily basis and those technologies would still be cutting edge.

No disrespect to his achievements or contributions but this world is for the living and it is our responsibility to look forward to and build the future, while learning from the past not fixating on it... What is that called again.... Oh yeah progress.

Onto 1st kyu preparation...
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Old 06-27-2011, 09:58 AM   #54
DH
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Re: What Is Your Frame Of Reference For Understanding Aikido?

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Anthony Loeppert wrote: View Post
Sometimes I'm bothered that some do revere him as a messiah figure (without the resurrection). If science was focused in this backwards manner we'd still be celebrating fire and the wheel on a daily basis and those technologies would still be cutting edge.

No disrespect to his achievements or contributions but this world is for the living and it is our responsibility to look forward to and build the future, while learning from the past not fixating on it... What is that called again.... Oh yeah progress.

Onto 1st kyu preparation...
Well yes and no. I've seen nothing in sports science to equal the IP/aiki model. I had to look backward... to move forward... using aiki in a full spectrum of MMA.
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Old 06-27-2011, 10:25 AM   #55
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Re: What Is Your Frame Of Reference For Understanding Aikido?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
What do you think, Ron?
My view is that Aikido speaks to each student on a very personal level, whether by design or happenstance. Every student must seek his/her own path. When I observe other's Aikido I do so without judgement and simply accept it as an expression of their practice.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Do you think you are capable of "recreating his vision in all its detail?"
Heavens no. His vision was a product of many factors unique to his life that I'll never be able to replicate in any detail should that be my goal. And, for the record it's not.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
For those making claims of physical understanding, they should in- whatever part- be able to demonstrate at least some of his physical power, and that power should be greater in those training the longest.
Agree.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Most would agree the middle ground is where they are at. There is a peculiar aspect to the aiki arts that draw people, and I have heard enough people talk about the benefits of their practice that I am sold that it is indeed a positive experience for many.
Agree.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Just as well, there are those interested in the more martial aspects of IP/aiki, and what is wrong with that?
Nothing wrong with that. The Aikido umbrella is wide, plenty of room underneath for a whole bunch of folks to get in out of the rain.

Best,

Ron

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Old 06-27-2011, 12:33 PM   #56
DH
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Re: What Is Your Frame Of Reference For Understanding Aikido?

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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
My view is that Aikido speaks to each student on a very personal level, whether by design or happenstance. Every student must seek his/her own path. When I observe other's Aikido I do so without judgement and simply accept it as an expression of their practice.

Best,

Ron
Well...that certainly is P.C. but if one is "CLAIMING" to be effective and or to have aiki...then all things are NOT equal and some people are full of it. If they're just havingfun ...connectng in some fashion and there is no delusional statement attached ..then who cares what they do.
cheers
Dan
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Old 06-27-2011, 01:03 PM   #57
lbb
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Re: What Is Your Frame Of Reference For Understanding Aikido?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Well...that certainly is P.C. but if one is "CLAIMING" to be effective and or to have aiki...then all things are NOT equal and some people are full of it.
Dan, sometimes I just don't understand how you get from point A to point Q, really. If one...then some people...what? As best I can pare your statement down, it seems like what you're really trying to say is, "You get to have your own opinion (or meaning), but you don't get to have your own facts." Why make it more complicated than that?
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Old 06-27-2011, 01:21 PM   #58
Chris Li
 
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Re: What Is Your Frame Of Reference For Understanding Aikido?

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Dan, sometimes I just don't understand how you get from point A to point Q, really. If one...then some people...what? As best I can pare your statement down, it seems like what you're really trying to say is, "You get to have your own opinion (or meaning), but you don't get to have your own facts." Why make it more complicated than that?
It made sense to me - anything anybody wants to do is fine, but not all roads lead to the same end.

Best,

Chris

Last edited by Chris Li : 06-27-2011 at 01:31 PM.

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Old 06-27-2011, 01:28 PM   #59
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Re: What Is Your Frame Of Reference For Understanding Aikido?

Does anyone else studying Aikido try and use as little power as possible? It seems like this should be the end goal.

A lot of discussion about power/strength ki etc. but if you really understand the art, shouldn't you not need to use it?

I threw a guy at a party by only a slight touch. I could have used power but didn't find it necessary. Isn't this true Aikido?

-

-It seems to be all about semantics!
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Old 06-27-2011, 01:54 PM   #60
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Re: What Is Your Frame Of Reference For Understanding Aikido?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Well...that certainly is P.C. but if one is "CLAIMING" to be effective and or to have aiki...then all things are NOT equal and some people are full of it. If they're just havingfun ...connectng in some fashion and there is no delusional statement attached ..then who cares what they do.
Hi Dan -

That's the first time I've ever been accused of being politically correct. And who said anything about "CLAIMING" this or that or said anything about all things being equal?

That's all beside the point. The original question I posed to you which you answered by turning it back on me is:

As Aikido students should we be left to go on our merry ways be they delusional or otherwise or have our feet to the fire of some contrived standard of measurement?

Your two quotes I posted in my original post seem to argue for both sides of the question.

Best,

Ron

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Old 06-27-2011, 02:12 PM   #61
DH
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Re: What Is Your Frame Of Reference For Understanding Aikido?

Ron
My two quotes make perfect sense when you understand that aikido is in fact being judged...just as any other art is being judged. You may not like it, you may not ask for it but you can't escape it.
In light of that, everyone can so or do what ever they like, but if someone says they are doing something martial....and its fantasy land, they open themselves up for judging from those who know better.
As for anyone else catching air and somewhere in the middle...they are being honest about their practice and are straight up, good on them.
Delusional practice-stating something that is just simply not true- does not get someone a free pass from criticism. That's not the world we live in. Other arts that claim to be martial, have their feet to the fire. It's a good thing.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 06-27-2011, 02:33 PM   #62
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Re: What Is Your Frame Of Reference For Understanding Aikido?

Dan

(not wanting to interfere the conversation, but trying to understand)

The statements you make are interesting to some extent....
Do I understand correctly that you object to those that claim their Aikido is effective (martial)? And should back such claims up?

First of all, consider natural selection. Students select teachers, students that look beyond the end of their nose find good teachers and advance, understand. others will not. A teacher with many students does not make him good; that is he might be good at selling Aikido.
Secondly, calling someone's bluff sounds a lot like challenge, competition, fight. This seems contrary to what Morihei believed in.

Thirdly, there is only one test...which is a bit final...which ultimately still does not say anything about someones Aikido understanding/ability...

Could you please explain?

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
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Old 06-27-2011, 02:51 PM   #63
Patrick Hutchinson
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Re: What Is Your Frame Of Reference For Understanding Aikido?

Throwing a guy at a party is true aikido?
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Old 06-27-2011, 03:23 PM   #64
phitruong
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Re: What Is Your Frame Of Reference For Understanding Aikido?

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Patrick Hutchinson wrote: View Post
Throwing a guy at a party is true aikido?
i think what he meant was he threw a guy a party and the guy was so touched by it. so it was very aikido. it was a very touchy feely kinda thing, which creep out many martial folks.
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Old 06-27-2011, 03:44 PM   #65
graham christian
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Re: What Is Your Frame Of Reference For Understanding Aikido?

My frame of reference is martial and the the one place I don't see martial is in the ring.

In the ring I see skill, I see ability, I see sport. No martial.

Regards.G.
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Old 06-27-2011, 03:59 PM   #66
phitruong
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Re: What Is Your Frame Of Reference For Understanding Aikido?

question, do folks believe that testing is to do some sort of fighting, especially, when it comes to aiki? just curious of folks perception on "aiki testing", i.e. testing frame of reference.
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Old 06-27-2011, 04:09 PM   #67
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Re: What Is Your Frame Of Reference For Understanding Aikido?

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
i think what he meant was he threw a guy a party and the guy was so touched by it. so it was very aikido. it was a very touchy feely kinda thing, which creep out many martial folks.
Ha! Almost as good as North South!

Patrick, yes, it was Aikido in my book it's a form of conflict resolution. A party, a parking garage, a home break-in, whatever.

-

-It seems to be all about semantics!
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Old 06-27-2011, 04:28 PM   #68
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Re: What Is Your Frame Of Reference For Understanding Aikido?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Ron
My two quotes make perfect sense when you understand that aikido is in fact being judged...just as any other art is being judged. You may not like it, you may not ask for it but you can't escape it.
In light of that, everyone can so or do what ever they like, but if someone says they are doing something martial....and its fantasy land, they open themselves up for judging from those who know better.
As for anyone else catching air and somewhere in the middle...they are being honest about their practice and are straight up, good on them.
Delusional practice-stating something that is just simply not true- does not get someone a free pass from criticism. That's not the world we live in. Other arts that claim to be martial, have their feet to the fire. It's a good thing.
Cheers
Dan
Thanks Dan I see better where you're coming from now.

Best,

Ron

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Old 06-27-2011, 04:45 PM   #69
Keith Larman
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Re: What Is Your Frame Of Reference For Understanding Aikido?

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
question, do folks believe that testing is to do some sort of fighting, especially, when it comes to aiki? just curious of folks perception on "aiki testing", i.e. testing frame of reference.


+1 fwiw.

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Old 06-27-2011, 04:57 PM   #70
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Re: What Is Your Frame Of Reference For Understanding Aikido?

A better form of conflict resolution is for an Aikido guy to throw a party.
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Old 06-27-2011, 05:11 PM   #71
Janet Rosen
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Re: What Is Your Frame Of Reference For Understanding Aikido?

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A better form of conflict resolution is for an Aikido guy to throw a party.
You beat me to it!!!!

Janet Rosen
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Old 06-27-2011, 05:32 PM   #72
DH
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Re: What Is Your Frame Of Reference For Understanding Aikido?

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Thanks Dan I see better where you're coming from now.

Best,

Ron
I want to be clear that I have a wide range of friends in the arts: Some who only are concerned with martial; sport or otherwise, others who could care less and are simply not in it too much for the martial side of things, and then others....firmly in the middle.
The only things -I judge- are at the two extremes of the spectrum.
1. The guys who have no clue what a real fight is or what real weapons can do and who have convinced themselves and their students that their shtick will work.
2.The martial guys who poke fun at the guys who don't necessarily care about the martial side and are having fun any way. They never said they were...leave them alone. Go straighten out the deluded ones.
Everyone else... is somewhere in the middle and having fun.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 06-27-2011, 07:21 PM   #73
jester
 
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Re: What Is Your Frame Of Reference For Understanding Aikido?

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Patrick Hutchinson wrote: View Post
A better form of conflict resolution is for an Aikido guy to throw a party.
Unfortunately that conflicts with my Bank Account!

-It seems to be all about semantics!
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Old 06-27-2011, 07:37 PM   #74
lbb
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Re: What Is Your Frame Of Reference For Understanding Aikido?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Ron
My two quotes make perfect sense when you understand that aikido is in fact being judged...just as any other art is being judged. You may not like it, you may not ask for it but you can't escape it.
Well, sure. You can be standing at the bus stop and someone will judge you based on how your dressed, even though it's none of their business.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
In light of that, everyone can so or do what ever they like, but if someone says they are doing something martial....and its fantasy land, they open themselves up for judging from those who know better.
Wait, so the only people who judge are those who "know better"? Somehow I don't think so.

Just because someone's judging you, doesn't mean their judgment is sound or should be listened to. Sometimes yes, but sometimes no.
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Old 06-27-2011, 08:28 PM   #75
DH
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Re: What Is Your Frame Of Reference For Understanding Aikido?

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Wait, so the only people who judge are those who "know better"? Somehow I don't think so.
Just because someone's judging you, doesn't mean their judgment is sound or should be listened to.
Well now, wouldn't that depend on what we are talking about? You'd have to be talking about specific things that are irrefutable or concepts that are known.
There are any number of ways, and any number of people who can judge us quite well. What's more, many times their judgment...of...us, will be agreed upon...by...us, once we are exposed.
Education is a good thing. Some people fear it, others welcome it. I've often found it helps us grow.
Cheers
Dan
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