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Old 06-19-2011, 10:06 AM   #26
DH
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Re: Solo Kokyu Practice

Quote:
Mark Jakabcsin wrote: View Post
Keith, If you are really interested in learning about the clip you posted I suggest you catch up with Howard Popkin.

A couple items for thought: Where does the circle/spiral start from? Roppokai uses infinite circles, see how this applies.

Take care,

Mark J.
To expand that further I would suggest people seriously consider just who they are debating with and listening to. As recent experience has shown me, I have wasted an incredible amount of time talking with people who really can talk a blue streak and theorize to the nth degree, but when it came down to seeing them move, there was no real depth and skill in their understanding of movement. Had I known they were a waste of time to debate movement with, I could have saved hundreds of hours.

There is a neutrality to that comment as well. I'm sure there are people who feel that way about me. It applies to all of us.
Everyone will have their own opinions based on what they are looking for, so no one is immune. But, hey, at least you will know, based on what you were looking for, who you want to be debating or discussing things with.
Dan
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Old 06-19-2011, 10:09 AM   #27
gates
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Re: Solo Kokyu Practice

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
To expand that further I would suggest people seriously consider just who they are debating with and listening to. As recent experience has shown me, I have wasted an incredible amount of time talking with people who really can talk a blue streak and theorize to the nth degree, but when it came down to seeing them move, there was no real depth and skill in their understanding of movement. Had I known they were a waste of time to debate movement with, I could have saved hundreds of hours.

There is a neutrality to that comment as well. I'm sure there are people who feel that way about me. It applies to all of us.
Everyone will have their own opinions based on what they are looking for, so no one is immune. But, hey, at least you will know, based on what you were looking for, who you want to be debating or discussing things with.
Dan
That's a useful and valid note of warning Dan, I will do as I always do and take everything with a pinch of salt.
What is your take on the movement?

Last edited by gates : 06-19-2011 at 10:12 AM.

Enjoy the journey
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Old 06-19-2011, 10:12 AM   #28
DH
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Re: Solo Kokyu Practice

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Keith Gates wrote: View Post
Dan I appreciate your input I truly do.
But please keep on topic. Using the thread to air your personal grievances is just an unnecessary distraction to what is a useful discussion (at least for me).
Thanks
Keith
Sure thing
I just thought you should know why Marks suggestion was so spot on.
You have at least now heard WHY you won't here from people who can actually answer your questions -in detail- and who can actually do what you are asking about..to a fare-thee-well.
My apologies for interrupting the discussion.
Carry on.
Dan
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Old 06-19-2011, 10:20 AM   #29
DH
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Re: Solo Kokyu Practice

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Keith Gates wrote: View Post
That's a useful and valid note of warning Dan, I will do as I always do and take everything with a pinch of salt.
What is your take on the movement?
My take?
That's interesting in and of itself.
All opinions are equal on the net, so you can:
1. Explore everyone's take and see how that turns out for ya.
2. Follow Marks advice and ask around and then go meet people who are
a. More than a keyboard and who can actually do things
b. Have students who can do things
c. Are capable of actually helping you attain your goals.
It's just my take, but I think it might save you a lot of time.
Good luck in your search.
Dan
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Old 06-19-2011, 11:00 AM   #30
gregstec
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Re: Solo Kokyu Practice

Quote:
Keith Gates wrote: View Post
The unification of the Ki (universal) and Centralised Ki (personal) was the point I was making via the clip in reference to where the Circle/Spiral begins. I was (poorly) implying that it is perhaps not merely generated from the personal centre, but the source is from a larger body (of Ki).

I will try to be less vague in future posts. I did this because I would prefer to keep the thread on the practical aspects of a potential solo training exercise, rather than spiral of into a metaphysical discussion (some time soon perhaps).

Keith
Kieth,

As was pointed out by Dan, the people that have first hand experiences with what is going on in that exercise are not going to provide you any detail on the net; not necessarily because it is secretive stuff, but more because there is a lot of internal things going on that has to be shown and felt rather than discussed. However, you have been thrown a couple of hints to think about - here is another one: the focus of the exercise is not the hands. As mentioned, it it best to get direct teaching from someone like Howard or one of his students to really understand the depth of what is going on.

Good Luck

Greg
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Old 06-19-2011, 05:34 PM   #31
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Solo Kokyu Practice

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Eric
Did you just use a video of an Aikido-ka and critisize it that he doesnlt get it, that he is a model of what not to do?
Yes.... you did.
And then you and a host others from here and Ebudo said I should be sued for slander and banned from all sites?
Touchy? Well, your latter point would be false as far as I am concerned. Video is out there, for fair comment, good examples, bad examples, nothing personal, just a caution to the guy asking the question should he Yougletoob the same point. It is plain and objective observation.

Quote:
There are people who can directly address what Okomoto is doing and how he is doing it. You will never hear a word of it, and you can continue on with your theories that those who actually do know what he is doing have...completely dismissed.
Dan
... I believe I just did address it. And, parsing your post I see you did not actually contradict a word of what I observed ... as to the rest I leave it where it lies.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 06-19-2011, 08:48 PM   #32
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Solo Kokyu Practice

Quote:
Keith Gates wrote: View Post
Erik,
Thank you. You give a good description of Torifune Undo. I can definitely see a commonality between the Torifune Undo and this exercise however the movements seem to be distinctly different.
They are.

Quote:
Keith Gates wrote: View Post
Especially in the rotation and angle of the hands and wrists, also the motion is less of a swinging momentum driven motion (or at least it is generated from a different movement), and as far as I can see there is no rebound effect or snapping motion (of the arms), the movement appears to actually stop momentarily at the top.
Okamoto is not doing it dynamically but more in the manner we would call Kokyu tanden ho, (what isn't really?) But dynamically is easier, IMO, to feel the nature of the structural use involved, (IF you can let the limbs relax to feel it, if you don't you won't) That way it is "being done to you" rather than "you are doing it." Then you can work better on the "you doing it" slowly to make it feel the same way as it "is done to you" dynamically. That is the role of the aikit -aiso. FWIW, this also was, in my estimation, the role of ukemi as Ueshiba taught, a means to an end -- not an end in itself in Aikido -- and which has also been misread in many quarters.

The rebound comes at the bottom of his extension and the arc and rise from underneath is the rebound at the limits of its applied moment, and thus reversing (the center power driving it), but in a continuous way and never a reciprocating way. I could show you the same thing with a chain, because it is using the arms in a related way. If you reciprocate (push-pull) the reversal with a chain you WILL hit yourself in the head.

If a guy is hanging on with his full weight applied, a sharp rebound in the "right" way travels from his wrist to his legs and pops the extensor reflexes, adding to the aiki age. As with letting the dynamic above teach the feel that the slow is searching for, there is no way really to learn the "right way" of that "sharpness" than having it done to you. I credit Ikeda in doing that to me, and in making me pay attention. It is resonant --literally and mechanically.

Done slowly, the moment is still applied and has similar effect, but is much more easily subject to error from "trying" things with the voluntary skeletal muscles rather than letting the shape and one's own reflexive coordination do the work.

It takes care to describe it, I'll grant -- that does not make impossible or useless to do it.

Practically speaking, if makes you feel any better, I played this one with my nineteen year-old son. Did it both sharp and slow. He played for a while at our dojo in middle school and early high school but it was not really his thing in terms of interest, more swimming instead. He tops me by almost three inches and does not have my bum knee. He is not exactly the compliant type...a year of college he starts getting ideas ... Who knew?

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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