Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-17-2011, 06:04 AM   #1
Dave de Vos
 
Dave de Vos's Avatar
Dojo: Shoryukai, Breda (aikikai) & Aiki-Budocentrum Breda (yoseikan)
Location: Baarle-Nassau
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 348
Netherlands
Offline
Discussing different aspects of aiki

Reading through several threads about (ai)ki here it strikes me that different people mean different things when talking about "aiki" and this causes much miscommunication and derailing of threads.

The common theme of aiki seems to be that it involves connecting in order to gain the upper hand, but there are differences in in what you connect and what you gain.

Here is a list of the different views I've encountered (please forgive me if my list is incomplete or if my descriptions are incomplete because of my limited understanding):
  • Spiritual aiki
    harmonizing your energy with the energy of the cosmos. zen. reaching enlightenment
  • Mental aiki
    calm awareness of your situation. avoiding violence, keeping yourself and your opponent(s) safe
  • Technical aiki
    aligning your movements and timing with an attack and while avoiding brute force, leading and imbalancing your opponent into a position where you can defeat him.
  • Internal aiki
    connecting your body together and to the ground so you can control your opponent's body when he touches you, possibly in a soft way
In practise, there already is a tendency for discussions about these different aspects to gravitate to different forums (Spiritual forum, Off-The-Mat forum, Techniques forum, Non-Aikido Martial Arts forum) but perhaps much thread derailing could be avoided if specific forums existed for discussing these different aspects of aiki (although overlapping to some extent) ?

(I may not be able to participate much in this topic for a few days, as I am away for the weekend)

Last edited by akiy : 06-17-2011 at 10:04 AM. Reason: Changed "blending" to "aligning" under Technical aiki
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 06:23 AM   #2
Dave de Vos
 
Dave de Vos's Avatar
Dojo: Shoryukai, Breda (aikikai) & Aiki-Budocentrum Breda (yoseikan)
Location: Baarle-Nassau
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 348
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Discussing different aspects of aiki

I'd like to change the first word under Technical aiki into aligning, but can't because of the 15 minute editing time window.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 07:37 AM   #3
Jauch
 
Jauch's Avatar
Dojo: Shinji Dojo/Curitiba, Paraná, Brasil
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 29
Portugal
Offline
Re: Discussing different aspects of aiki

Hi Dave!

I don't think that split the forum into more "specific" sections based on the many different views of "aiki" is a good thing...

Kissomaru Ueshiba said that every person has his own view and understand about aiki.
Because of this, I think that is important, when discussing something "aiki related", to make clear what do you "believe", so that would be possible to other to understand your point of view.


Last edited by Jauch : 06-17-2011 at 07:38 AM. Reason: spell correct
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 08:17 AM   #4
Dave de Vos
 
Dave de Vos's Avatar
Dojo: Shoryukai, Breda (aikikai) & Aiki-Budocentrum Breda (yoseikan)
Location: Baarle-Nassau
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 348
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Discussing different aspects of aiki

Quote:
Eduardo Jauch wrote: View Post
Hi Dave!

I don't think that split the forum into more "specific" sections based on the many different views of "aiki" is a good thing...

Kissomaru Ueshiba said that every person has his own view and understand about aiki.
Because of this, I think that is important, when discussing something "aiki related", to make clear what do you "believe", so that would be possible to other to understand your point of view.

I think you are very right, but I see that people tend to see things from of their own point of view.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 08:21 AM   #5
Dazzler
Dojo: Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 647
England
Offline
Re: Discussing different aspects of aiki

I quite like your classifications....might simplify a lot of conversations if people used something like this.

Too often there is division caused by use of differing terminology.

Good effort !

D
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 09:50 AM   #6
Aikirk
Location: Aahus
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 83
Denmark
Offline
Re: Discussing different aspects of aiki

I think your classifications make a lot of sense, at least to me. But i believe the different classifications are not different types of Aiki but still the same. Aiki is one thing because it is energy. The categories are different ways of using the Aiki energy.

But I also believe, that one must start with changing oneself in order to reach Aligning, Spiritual and and Mental Aiki. Therefore the internal Aiki is key to being able to obtaining the other forms of Aiki. In other words, the internal Aiki is the basic and the rest must be built upon it. And to be able to do Aiki you must feel. It is all about feeling the opponent.

It has to be said that I do not do Aikido no more, but a very small form of martial art called Kyusho Aiki Jutsu, which is a blend between many arts, but propably resembles some kind of Karate/Daito Ryu/Systema-thingy.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 10:01 AM   #7
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,896
United_States
Offline
Re: Discussing different aspects of aiki

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
I'd like to change the first word under Technical aiki into aligning, but can't because of the 15 minute editing time window.
that and internal aiki are one, physical aiki.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 10:23 AM   #8
Aikirk
Location: Aahus
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 83
Denmark
Offline
Re: Discussing different aspects of aiki

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
that and internal aiki are one, physical aiki.
By saying "physical aiki", do you then mean body mechanics?
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 11:53 AM   #9
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,896
United_States
Offline
Re: Discussing different aspects of aiki

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
By saying "physical aiki", do you then mean body mechanics?
yes. it could be external and/or internal, physical/corporal process.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 01:46 PM   #10
bkedelen
 
bkedelen's Avatar
Dojo: Boulder Aikikai
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 449
United_States
Offline
Re: Discussing different aspects of aiki

Isn't it bizarre that the term "aiki" is basically used as a catch-all term for whatever thing or set of things, usually somewhat subtle or esoteric, you have acquired that makes the biggest difference in getting your martial arts skills to work? I have seen multiple convincing demonstrations of "aiki", each of which really do produce amazing results, each based on completely different ideas. Each of those demonstrations comes with a handy explanation about how the results produced are clearly similar to the results seen in either Osensei videos, or other effective esoteric arts, and the skills are therefore an example of "aiki". Even after all this research, many people know exactly which principle/principles constitute "aiki" in their own internal definition, but there is absolutely no consensus among the people with working Aikido (and other similar arts) on what "aiki" is and how it is developed. I sometimes wonder if the term itself is just some sort of one-word-koan that has been invested with importance but not meaning so that each of us is free to invest it with whatever meaning we choose and free to redefine it for ourselves whenever that seems appropriate.

Last edited by bkedelen : 06-17-2011 at 01:52 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 02:09 PM   #11
Aikirk
Location: Aahus
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 83
Denmark
Offline
Re: Discussing different aspects of aiki

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
yes. it could be external and/or internal, physical/corporal process.
But what is interesting about some of the aiki-videos out there is the fact, that what you put in is not what comes out. The force applied is much to little and subtle to make the effect on uke. Therefore something else must be at play.

I know people who are very, very skilled at this. I'm only in the learning stage, but the difference between "doing form" and "doing form plus tampering with the energy of the uke" is huge.

I recognize the things done in this video very well. We do it sometimes and let me tell you, the people would not fall if they had no other choice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXNqdl3-KFo

Yes it is hard to believe its true. Yes it is hard to learn. And yes you must feel it in order to do it.

Last edited by Aikirk : 06-17-2011 at 02:10 PM. Reason: Added link
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 02:20 PM   #12
Aikirk
Location: Aahus
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 83
Denmark
Offline
Re: Discussing different aspects of aiki

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
Isn't it bizarre that the term "aiki" is basically used as a catch-all term for whatever thing or set of things, usually somewhat subtle or esoteric, you have acquired that makes the biggest difference in getting your martial arts skills to work? I have seen multiple convincing demonstrations of "aiki", each of which really do produce amazing results, each based on completely different ideas. Each of those demonstrations comes with a handy explanation about how the results produced are clearly similar to the results seen in either Osensei videos, or other effective esoteric arts, and the skills are therefore an example of "aiki". Even after all this research, many people know exactly which principle/principles constitute "aiki" in their own internal definition, but there is absolutely no consensus among the people with working Aikido (and other similar arts) on what "aiki" is and how it is developed. I sometimes wonder if the term itself is just some sort of one-word-koan that has been invested with importance but not meaning so that each of us is free to invest it with whatever meaning we choose and free to redefine it for ourselves whenever that seems appropriate.
I'm sceptical. If Aikido is the way of Aiki then, and Aiki can be everything one would like it to be, Aikido is "Anything-do". Then the Aikidoist would have no use for a teacher, and even picking your nose would be Aikido. I don't think O'sensei had that in mind.

Yes, some would argue that Aikido can be anything, but only when it is done with a certain intent or in a certain way will it become something.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 08:54 PM   #13
Jauch
 
Jauch's Avatar
Dojo: Shinji Dojo/Curitiba, Paraná, Brasil
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 29
Portugal
Offline
Re: Discussing different aspects of aiki

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
Isn't it bizarre that the term "aiki" is basically used as a catch-all term for whatever thing or set of things, usually somewhat subtle or esoteric, you have acquired that makes the biggest difference in getting your martial arts skills to work? I have seen multiple convincing demonstrations of "aiki", each of which really do produce amazing results, each based on completely different ideas. Each of those demonstrations comes with a handy explanation about how the results produced are clearly similar to the results seen in either Osensei videos, or other effective esoteric arts, and the skills are therefore an example of "aiki". Even after all this research, many people know exactly which principle/principles constitute "aiki" in their own internal definition, but there is absolutely no consensus among the people with working Aikido (and other similar arts) on what "aiki" is and how it is developed. I sometimes wonder if the term itself is just some sort of one-word-koan that has been invested with importance but not meaning so that each of us is free to invest it with whatever meaning we choose and free to redefine it for ourselves whenever that seems appropriate.
Maybe the meaning is not that important?

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
But what is interesting about some of the aiki-videos out there is the fact, that what you put in is not what comes out. The force applied is much to little and subtle to make the effect on uke. Therefore something else must be at play.

I know people who are very, very skilled at this. I'm only in the learning stage, but the difference between "doing form" and "doing form plus tampering with the energy of the uke" is huge.

I recognize the things done in this video very well. We do it sometimes and let me tell you, the people would not fall if they had no other choice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXNqdl3-KFo

Yes it is hard to believe its true. Yes it is hard to learn. And yes you must feel it in order to do it.
I already have the oportunity to feel, as uke, what is in this video. And even having my own theories about it, I'm pretty sure that I don't know what happened.

But I think this is not something can "learn". Even if the learn were really difficult, if it was possible, we would see many more people doing things like this.

There isn't many people doing this out there and the one's that exists do not "learn". They "discovered". I think.

Feel it is very important, but don't seems to be a prerequisite and for sure is not enough.

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
I'm sceptical. If Aikido is the way of Aiki then, and Aiki can be everything one would like it to be, Aikido is "Anything-do". Then the Aikidoist would have no use for a teacher, and even picking your nose would be Aikido. I don't think O'sensei had that in mind.

Yes, some would argue that Aikido can be anything, but only when it is done with a certain intent or in a certain way will it become something.
I must agree with Benjamin.
"aiki" is a word (or concept) that seems to never be fully defined. Or it has gained new meanings with each "discovery" that people did about what they could do, their relation with others and the universe/reality.

Maybe reality is not so "static" as we may think and we're able to do much more than we believe.

I already read somewhere on theory that "matter" is an illusion and all that exists is "energy".

Maybe we let the illusion of a "solid reality" told our possibilities?

Many maybes, to me... rsrsrs
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2011, 01:34 AM   #14
bkedelen
 
bkedelen's Avatar
Dojo: Boulder Aikikai
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 449
United_States
Offline
Re: Discussing different aspects of aiki

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
I'm sceptical. If Aikido is the way of Aiki then, and Aiki can be everything one would like it to be, Aikido is "Anything-do". Then the Aikidoist would have no use for a teacher, and even picking your nose would be Aikido. I don't think O'sensei had that in mind.

Yes, some would argue that Aikido can be anything, but only when it is done with a certain intent or in a certain way will it become something.
I see where your confusion comes from. When I said "you" initially in my comment I should have narrowed that down quite a bit. Everyone's opinion on "aiki" is not equal. "Aiki" clearly cannot be just anything or everything. At the bare minimum it has to be the very most important principle or set of principles underlying the success of one or more people with world class Aikido. What I am saying is that even with this prerequisite, it is easy to track down a surprising variety of ideas about the nature of "aiki", all coming from what could easily be characterized as legitimate sources of knowledge.

Last edited by bkedelen : 06-18-2011 at 01:37 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2011, 02:24 AM   #15
Aikirk
Location: Aahus
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 83
Denmark
Offline
Re: Discussing different aspects of aiki

Quote:
Eduardo Jauch wrote: View Post
Maybe the meaning is not that important?

I already have the oportunity to feel, as uke, what is in this video. And even having my own theories about it, I'm pretty sure that I don't know what happened.

But I think this is not something can "learn". Even if the learn were really difficult, if it was possible, we would see many more people doing things like this.

There isn't many people doing this out there and the one's that exists do not "learn". They "discovered". I think.

Feel it is very important, but don't seems to be a prerequisite and for sure is not enough.
I'm would more or less agree on the above, but Aiki skills can, like everything else, be taught and learned. There are different excercises and training drills for developing this power.

I think you'r right about the teachers out there who discovered this instead of learning. But i believe that has more to do with the reluctancy in passing this on from old masters.

But when that is said, oneself must definitely discover Aiki trough one self as it manifests differently in different persons. That's also where the feel comes in. You cannot force it, it must fit. And only you can feel how it fits.

I'm a bit curious about who you felt this from. Do you care to reveal it?

Quote:

I must agree with Benjamin.
"aiki" is a word (or concept) that seems to never be fully defined. Or it has gained new meanings with each "discovery" that people did about what they could do, their relation with others and the universe/reality.

Maybe reality is not so "static" as we may think and we're able to do much more than we believe.

I already read somewhere on theory that "matter" is an illusion and all that exists is "energy".

Maybe we let the illusion of a "solid reality" told our possibilities?

Many maybes, to me... rsrsrs
Yes, aiki can manifest in many different forms, and the physical connection is not always necessary. But from what I've experienced and have been told, there are other energies than aiki, but it is difficult to discuss in a forum. A mat would be much better suited.

I believe you're very, very right in your statement about matter being no more than energy, and I think the only boundaries we experience is ourselves and what we feel we cannot do. If you believe you can do things, you will succeed. But every ounce of doubt and fear of failing must be ridden from the mind, and then extrordinary things will happen. But I better stop here, this could indeed devolope into a wierd ramble from my side.

  Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2011, 08:46 AM   #16
Jauch
 
Jauch's Avatar
Dojo: Shinji Dojo/Curitiba, Paraná, Brasil
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 29
Portugal
Offline
Re: Discussing different aspects of aiki

Hi Simon

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
I'm a bit curious about who you felt this from. Do you care to reveal it?
No problems.

The person who I'm talking is Makoto Nishida. A sensei in Brazil.
He has a few videos on youtube, all of them taken in seminars and classroom (by students).

But most people ignore him (and most of them really don't like "his" aikido), because its a veeeeeeeeeeeeeeery "slow" aikido. Almost "static". There are not a bit of "visually fantastic" in what he does.

But that kokyu ho (in seiza) that appear in the beginning of the video you posted. I see him doing this. And I have felt, in another technique, the same.

What I can say is that I'm not a guy who make things easy for nage. Even for Nishida Sensei, I love to try it

Anyway, this is my personal experience. If something finds this useful and have the opportunity to attend a seminar of Nishida Sensei or his classrooms in Brazil, I think its worth.

  Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2011, 01:05 PM   #17
Aikirk
Location: Aahus
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 83
Denmark
Offline
Re: Discussing different aspects of aiki

Quote:
Eduardo Jauch wrote: View Post
Hi Simon

No problems.

The person who I'm talking is Makoto Nishida. A sensei in Brazil.
He has a few videos on youtube, all of them taken in seminars and classroom (by students).

But most people ignore him (and most of them really don't like "his" aikido), because its a veeeeeeeeeeeeeeery "slow" aikido. Almost "static". There are not a bit of "visually fantastic" in what he does.

But that kokyu ho (in seiza) that appear in the beginning of the video you posted. I see him doing this. And I have felt, in another technique, the same.

What I can say is that I'm not a guy who make things easy for nage. Even for Nishida Sensei, I love to try it

Anyway, this is my personal experience. If something finds this useful and have the opportunity to attend a seminar of Nishida Sensei or his classrooms in Brazil, I think its worth.

Hi

I like slow Aikido, and slow techniques in general. If you stay soft and relaxed troughout your whole body, this will build technique, precision and even aiki. You cannot cheat while doing a slow technique softly, it must work or else you tense up and the flow goes away.

Nishido is an interesting sensei. I wouldn't say I know him, but judging from the videos he knows a thing a or two. I don't know how much aiki was displayed in the videos I found, but I think I spotted it one or two times. It's difficult to see in flowing techniques, but the uncontrolled reaction of uke compared to the softness and control of tori usually gives it away.

I believe you when you say you don't make things easy for him, at least not intentionally. The real beauty about aiki is the fact that the more you put in, the more will come back at you. So a firm grib and strong intention, while being a difficult task if you were to do a normal technique, it would certainly make things easy for the aiki master.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2011, 01:17 PM   #18
Aikirk
Location: Aahus
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 83
Denmark
Offline
Re: Discussing different aspects of aiki

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
I see where your confusion comes from. When I said "you" initially in my comment I should have narrowed that down quite a bit. Everyone's opinion on "aiki" is not equal. "Aiki" clearly cannot be just anything or everything. At the bare minimum it has to be the very most important principle or set of principles underlying the success of one or more people with world class Aikido. What I am saying is that even with this prerequisite, it is easy to track down a surprising variety of ideas about the nature of "aiki", all coming from what could easily be characterized as legitimate sources of knowledge.
Yes, I agree with you. And it's difficult to say who's wrong or right because our knowledge of it is still very much incomplete. Even the great masters had something they din't know or couldn't figure out. More so if they denied this.

But I believe there are ways we can follow which leads us to knowledge about aiki, and ways we can follow which leads us to greater knowledge about other things, even though it is claimed to be the way of aiki.

And we shouldn't forget the fact that many other styles as for example certain types of karate, kungfu and tai chi could be at least as much "The Way of Aiki" than Aikido or Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2011, 02:52 PM   #19
Dave de Vos
 
Dave de Vos's Avatar
Dojo: Shoryukai, Breda (aikikai) & Aiki-Budocentrum Breda (yoseikan)
Location: Baarle-Nassau
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 348
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Discussing different aspects of aiki

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
yes. it could be external and/or internal, physical/corporal process.
I agree that both are phisical aiki. But I also think it is justified to split it up into two distinct aspects, because there seems to be a substantial group defending the view that technical aiki does not automatically incorporate internal aiki, even if the technical content is of exceptionally high level.

I agree that there is debatable (obviously, because there is a lot of debate about it) whether they are distinct aspects and if so, what makes internal aiki different from technical aiki. Like whether the difference can be seen on video by an untrained eye.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2011, 03:36 PM   #20
Dave de Vos
 
Dave de Vos's Avatar
Dojo: Shoryukai, Breda (aikikai) & Aiki-Budocentrum Breda (yoseikan)
Location: Baarle-Nassau
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 348
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Discussing different aspects of aiki

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
Yes, aiki can manifest in many different forms, and the physical connection is not always necessary. But from what I've experienced and have been told, there are other energies than aiki, but it is difficult to discuss in a forum. A mat would be much better suited.

I believe you're very, very right in your statement about matter being no more than energy, and I think the only boundaries we experience is ourselves and what we feel we cannot do. If you believe you can do things, you will succeed. But every ounce of doubt and fear of failing must be ridden from the mind, and then extrordinary things will happen.
From my point of view I would classify this view as somewhere between Mental aiki and Spritual aiki.

And I have to admit that Spiritual aiki is a bit beyond my world view.
I mean, being a physicist, I definitely believe matter is a form of energy (E = mc²), but I don't really believe that our bodies are capable of using this for much else than using chemical reactions to convert a tiny amount of mass into the energy required to keep us alive and to make our body move (and heat it up as a side effect).

FWIW
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2011, 12:06 AM   #21
Aikirk
Location: Aahus
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 83
Denmark
Offline
Re: Discussing different aspects of aiki

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
From my point of view I would classify this view as somewhere between Mental aiki and Spritual aiki.

And I have to admit that Spiritual aiki is a bit beyond my world view.
I mean, being a physicist, I definitely believe matter is a form of energy (E = mc²), but I don't really believe that our bodies are capable of using this for much else than using chemical reactions to convert a tiny amount of mass into the energy required to keep us alive and to make our body move (and heat it up as a side effect).

FWIW
That's totally fine with me, I respect that and the laws of nature. But I just witnessed and felt too many extrordinary things, to believe that there is only what science knows right now. I believe there are MUCH more.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2011, 12:35 AM   #22
oisin bourke
 
oisin bourke's Avatar
Dojo: Muden Juku, Ireland
Location: Kilkenny
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 333
Ireland
Offline
Re: Discussing different aspects of aiki

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post

And I have to admit that Spiritual aiki is a bit beyond my world view.
I mean, being a physicist, I definitely believe matter is a form of energy (E = mc²), but I don't really believe that our bodies are capable of using this for much else than using chemical reactions to convert a tiny amount of mass into the energy required to keep us alive and to make our body move (and heat it up as a side effect).

FWIW
Belief seems in tune with a fairly "spiritual" attitude to me.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2011, 12:13 PM   #23
Dave de Vos
 
Dave de Vos's Avatar
Dojo: Shoryukai, Breda (aikikai) & Aiki-Budocentrum Breda (yoseikan)
Location: Baarle-Nassau
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 348
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Discussing different aspects of aiki

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
Belief seems in tune with a fairly "spiritual" attitude to me.
Indeed, I consider my view a belief, but I wouldn't call it a spiritual of religious belief. I mean, I believe I am a man and I believe I will die one day, but there's nothing spiritual or religious about that belief. It is just something I consider to be true or very likely at least.

I know science does not know everything there is to know and it probably never will. But it is the best match with my beliefs and disbeliefs, my gut feeling about which phenomena are probably real and which phenomena probably aren't. No proof.

I respect spiritual and religious views. They are just not compatible with my gut feeling.

Last edited by Dave de Vos : 06-20-2011 at 12:23 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2011, 08:30 AM   #24
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,073
United_States
Offline
Re: Discussing different aspects of aiki

For me, most aiki conversations center around a belief which evidence may or may not support. When we cannot support our beliefs, we throw up our hands and play the religion card. Similarly, we often use science to infer a theory, not substantiate it. That's bad science. Both of these issue arise by over-extending valid arguments.

For example, "aiki exists" is a reasonable claim. "Aiki exists and I can throw a ki ball and knock you down" is more difficult to validate. Oh, and wikipedia and youtube do not validate anything. Neither does your brother's best friend's sister's boyfriend that one time saw something.

For me, the specific definition aiki is belief and therefore personalized to each person's perspectives. Yes, we have evidential support for ki. I believe there is one ki, an energy produced by the body that may be used to enhance our body's functions. I do not believe it may be categorized into multiple types, although I would accept the categorization of its uses.

Politics and religion, never discuss them in mixed company, right? Well, aiki is religion and I think we make far to many unsupported claims to create a valid discussion. We also dismiss far too many valid claims because they conflict with our beliefs. The Earth is flat, right? I think to further aiki discussions we need to realize presenters have burden of proof and respondents have a burden of justification. Both parties have a burden of validity. Did I mention youtube and wikipedia are not valid sources?

For those of you interested, here is a mythbusters video in which Jamie and Adam solve a rubix cube. The video is a scam but aloooottttt of people fell for the scam:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zePA3uIbB5I
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2011, 08:47 AM   #25
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,896
United_States
Offline
Re: Discussing different aspects of aiki

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
I agree that both are phisical aiki. But I also think it is justified to split it up into two distinct aspects, because there seems to be a substantial group defending the view that technical aiki does not automatically incorporate internal aiki, even if the technical content is of exceptionally high level.
this is to contrast with the spiritual and mental. physical aiki, regardless external and/or internal, is still physical, something to do with the body. just because you don't see it, internal, doesn't mean it's not a physical process. for me physical aiki, isn't just internal only, it's both. strange though, that the aiki term, as an asian, i understand it at an instinctive level, i.e. didn't even have to think too much about it, like breathing.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Aikido does not work at all in a fight. joeysola General 1968 11-04-2016 10:05 AM
Aiki Pointers? MM Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 10 10-07-2010 11:56 AM
Shioda, Tohei, and Ki Things Mike Sigman General 118 03-13-2010 07:18 AM
Takemusu Aiki in Systematic Teaching? Erick Mead Training 39 11-02-2006 10:55 AM
Culture of Martial Mediocrity? L. Camejo Training 160 02-03-2006 02:25 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:24 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2016 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2016 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate