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Old 11-11-2010, 12:24 AM   #76
Randall Lim
Dojo: Tendoryu Aikido Singapore
Location: Singapore
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Singapore
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Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Well, there's no Aikikai rule against training anywhere in particular, affiliated or not. If it's a non-Aikikai dojo that is causing the problem then it's really their problem isn't it?

Best,

Chris
It is affiliated.
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Old 11-11-2010, 12:32 AM   #77
Randall Lim
Dojo: Tendoryu Aikido Singapore
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Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
How is that connected with unification? This is an issue of teachers methodology and not of

Different teachers teach in different manners, for most of them, a student saying "but in XXX dojo they do it the other way" would create an interuption they are not willing to accept, be XXX in the same organization or in another one. Some of those teachers would not know to explain the reasons for the way taught by them, others, are afraid to admit another variation might be better, and others would not be willing to find a disruption in class becausse some students are trying the other varyiation and have problems.

Some teachers also believe it is not in the best interest of their student to learn the same technique with varying emphasis at the same time. They consider it to confuse te student and hamper is progress. Such a teacher may refuse to have his student consistently learn a very similar M.A. in another place

Some teachers would consider such a state as putting them in a continous popularity contest with another teacher, and thus hampering their methodological considerations (the students should practice the same techniques for the nth time, but then he will think of my lessons as boring compared to ...)

A good teacher invests in his studens. Some may wish to feel they are the ones responsile for his progress rather then share the fame.

Lots of reasons, all of which have to do with humans, not with organizations.

Amir
When I say unification, i do not mean every Aikido club standardising their styles or methods.

What I simply mean is to have situations where by any Aikidoka from any club is welcomed to train regularly at any other unaffiliated clubs.
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Old 11-11-2010, 12:42 AM   #78
Chris Li
 
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Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido

Quote:
Randall Lim wrote: View Post
It is affiliated.
Didn't you say it wasn't?

Quote:
There is a Dojo just a mere 10-minute walk from my home. I hope to suppliment my current weekly training at my own club (which is a good 30-minute drive) with regular training at this nearby Dojo, but cannot simply because it is run by a non-affiliated club.
If everybody's Aikikai then what's the problem?

Best,

Chris

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Old 11-11-2010, 02:53 AM   #79
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido

Quote:
Randall Lim wrote: View Post
When I say unification, i do not mean every Aikido club standardising their styles or methods. [
But this is a main issue of unification besides grading standards.

Quote:
What I simply mean is to have situations where by any Aikidoka from any club is welcomed to train regularly at any other unaffiliated clubs.
This is not an issue of unification but of respect.

But:

There are different ways of teaching and of doing technique. And depending on my experiences it only makes sense to mix up different ways of understandig aikido after some years of intense training.
I.e. when one the one hand being sure with ones own aikido and on the other hand being able to adopt to a different approach.
And this is not about styles or organizations but about lines of tradition: Yamguchi and Saito and Ueshiba Kisshomaru are all aikikai but different "approaches".
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Old 11-11-2010, 07:47 PM   #80
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido

Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote: View Post
My statement was,
"The Aikikai is the parent organization of Aikido and represents the last developments in the art of Aikido as taught by the Ueshiba family."

I was making a statement as to the official teaching of the Aikikai as espoused or taught by the Doshu as the representative of the Ueshiba family. Lots of Senseis within the Aikikai who teach under the Doshu have a different style including my own teacher. Those aren't the last developments of the Ueshiba family. Those are the last developments of Nishio Sensei or Saito sensei or whoever.The only official teaching of the Aikikai Foundation is represented in Doshu. Last time I checked, Doshu wasn't doing Nishio style nor are Nishio's books being sold by the Aikikai Hombu dojo.
Thanks for your comment anyway. I know you were trying to help.
Well, if you believe, as the folks at the Aikikai seem to, that Aikido is the Ueshiba family art, then this is a potential line of reasoning. I think it ignores that many of us have the impression that what is happening at Hombu is not the latest "development" of the art but is rather a lack of development or a subtraction of what was once there in favor of a simpler and more easily taught variation. The young deshi get nothing like the training my teacher was given,rather they seem to be trained to do and teach a certain curriculum.

I happen to think that the art was O-Sensei's art and that he transmitted various parts and different understandings to a number of people, which would include his family. Then, since his death in 1969, these people have taken their Aikido in various directions. The Aikikai seems to have opted for mass instruction of standardized techniques. Other teachers worked out their own methodologies or forms of the art. I definitely do not see the Aikikai as representing any kind of pinnacle or model for the art. In my opinion the best and most interesting Aikido is being done elsewhere. This would even be true when talking about the senior Hombu Dojo instructors who see to have a "party line" instruction when teaching at headquarters and another, far more interesting and individual take on the art when teaching at their own private dojos.

If we keep buying into this idea that Aikido proceeds outwards from the "source" which is Japan and Hombu Dojo, then we as the senior foreigners, students of the art trained directly by the uchi deshi, with every bit as many years of experience as some of the Japanese teachers now actively instructing at headquarters, will never really be treated seriously by our fellow Aikido practitioners.

When foreign Shihan are invited to teach at Hombu Dojo, I will perhaps start to invest in a Hombu leadership role. But right now, we don't participate and no one at headquarters seem to question that. I do not look to them for direction at all. What I am doing and trying to develop simply isn't even being taught there, that I have seen. I could be wrong. I haven't been there in many years. But I see the videos of the Embus and talk to folks who do pass through to train and I have heard anything that would contradict this view.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 11-12-2010, 06:18 AM   #81
Randall Lim
Dojo: Tendoryu Aikido Singapore
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Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Didn't you say it wasn't?

Chris
I mean, it is affiliated to the Aikikai, but not to my club. My club is not affiliated to the Aikikai.
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Old 11-13-2010, 02:38 AM   #82
Chicko Xerri
Dojo: Aikido Kenkyukai International Fudoshin dojo Australia.
Location: Noosa Heads, Australia
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Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido

My Aikido is the Best. Why? Because it makes me so so happy, Generally.
Yours is also the best for me. Why? Because I can see it.
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Old 11-14-2010, 07:20 AM   #83
Amir Krause
Dojo: Shirokan Dojo / Tel Aviv Israel
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Thumbs up Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
This is not an issue of unification but of respect.
I concur
You could have been learning two seperate M.A. and still have this same problem. Or have two sensei of the same organization disagree to your learning at both Dojos. It is not an issue of unified organization. Only a matter of respect.

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
But:

There are different ways of teaching and of doing technique. And depending on my experiences it only makes sense to mix up different ways of understandig aikido after some years of intense training.
I.e. when one the one hand being sure with ones own aikido and on the other hand being able to adopt to a different approach.
And this is not about styles or organizations but about lines of tradition: Yamguchi and Saito and Ueshiba Kisshomaru are all aikikai but different "approaches".
This is the legitimate reason for such disagreement, compounded by students insisting on asking at one class questions on things done at the other.

Amir
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Old 02-06-2011, 04:56 AM   #84
Randall Lim
Dojo: Tendoryu Aikido Singapore
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Thumbs up Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
I belong to a federation that is not affiliated to the Aikikai. It's not something that normally enters my consciousness.
I practice with a teacher who has learnt from a number of O'Sensei's direct students, as far as I'm concerned, the quality of your teacher and his/her teaching is far more important than the name of the organisation or the 'validity' that is given or not by a 'governing body'.
I have no negative thoughts regarding any other aikido 'group' as long as they uphold the spirit of O'Sensei's teaching.

regards,
Mark
Fully agreed!!
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Old 02-06-2011, 05:09 AM   #85
Randall Lim
Dojo: Tendoryu Aikido Singapore
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Thumbs up Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido

Quote:
David Yap wrote: View Post
Hi Maumote Chami,

Aikido is already a complex art to study for anyone who do not have any prior MA training. To get into the politics of the various aikido organizations only intense its complexity. IMO, it is a study by itself. You need to go into the history and evolution of aikido and its respective organizations. The politics of the major organizations and the politics within these organizations and their affiliates is a never ending subject considering all (human) factors that created the politics. Sadly but realistically, rankings are tools of such politics.

We always look at Aikido as a MA created by M Ueshiba. Then, it is also argued that the term "Aikido" is also used as a classification/label by the DAI NIHON BUTOKUKAI to cover all similar MA - e.g. Korindo Aikido. Interview with Minoru Hirai sensei Generally, the aikido we refer to and train in is the aikido of M Ueshiba and the major organizations of this lineage are:

Controlled and managed by his direct descendants - Aikikai
Of his direct students -
Yoshinkan Aikido - Gozo Shioda
Shin shin Toitsu Aikido - Koichi Tohei
Tomiki Aikido - Kenji Tomiki
Aiki Manseido - Kanshu Sunadomari
Yoseikan - Minoru Mochizuki
Tendoryu Aikido - Kenji Shimizu
and the latest addition - Shin shin Aiki Shuren-Kai - Hirohito Saito (trained as child with O Sensei)

As for the ART, you are right about, "..but at the end it's a 1 Aikido". There are different paths to go up a mountain but the view is the same at the top. I agree with Lan -

To enjoy the journey, we must remain a student and forget about the ranks and hakama.

As for your friend - do you need to correct him? IMO, no. Just ask him to do his own research rather than listening to his teacher. That 25% of the teaching may not be 100% right

Best training

David Y
Comprehensive list of lineages!!
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Old 02-06-2011, 05:13 AM   #86
Randall Lim
Dojo: Tendoryu Aikido Singapore
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Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Well, Moriteru Ueshiba stated outright in "Best Aikido" that "styles that practiced compeition" (ie Shodokan) were not Aikido.

Of course, people have to make up their own minds as to whether they agree with that viewpoint or not.

I know that the "many roads up the same mountain" view is politically correct, but in all fairness, since some things are obviously not Aikido there must be some point at which something becomes "not Aikido", even in spite of some past connection to Morihei Ueshiba. The exact location of that point I leave as an exercise to the reader .

Best,

Chris
If I do not see or feel any Aiki in an "Aikido" technique, do I still consider it Aikido?? For example, if I execute Kotegaeshi or Shiho Nage without Aiki, do I still call them Aikido??

Last edited by Randall Lim : 02-06-2011 at 05:16 AM.
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Old 02-06-2011, 05:21 AM   #87
Randall Lim
Dojo: Tendoryu Aikido Singapore
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Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido

Quote:
Romuel Villareal wrote: View Post
IMHO there is only one Aikido. Tell him that it is the manner in which they are taught that makes the difference. Some concentrates on variations, some on basics. Others on flowing, others on static. Others on self-defense, others for exercise, etc., etc. Depending on your affiliation, the method of teaching and focus on training varies.
Many Aikido Techniques can be executed without Aiki. Do you still call them Aikido?? Most Tai Chi moves use Aiki. Can we call Tai Chi a kind of Aikido??
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Old 02-07-2011, 02:53 AM   #88
Chicko Xerri
Dojo: Aikido Kenkyukai International Fudoshin dojo Australia.
Location: Noosa Heads, Australia
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Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido

("When your Heart is True, your technique is correct.")
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Old 06-17-2011, 08:28 PM   #89
RobertHouse
 
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Re: Diff. styles, 1 Aikido

While studying at the Aikikai Hombu Dojo I remember seeing many styles from the various teachers there. Yamaguchi Sensei's class was quite different from Arikawa Sensei's class to the extent that a new student would surely question whether they are of the same "style". Granted things may have changed as my 7 years in Tokyo ended 14 years ago. I had my favorite Instructors but went to all classes to get something from the variety of "styles" that existed under one roof.

Following that train of thought... I always enjoyed going to any other style dojo that I could get an invitation to just to experience the differences. I was invited to Shirata Sensei, Saito Sensei, Kobayashi Yasuo Sensei, Tomiki dojos, Yoshinkan dojos and others. Unfortunately, at every dojo I went to, some student would say something along the lines of "our style is right and your style is wrong".

A point to notice is that the students saying this were usually junior students and the senior students did not express that - at least outwardly.

My best advise would be to ignore those who put down someone with a different style and gravitate to those who rejoice in our differences.

Thanks for listening.
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