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Old 01-21-2010, 11:11 PM   #26
Eugene Leslie
 
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Re: Ueno Chimp Rolls

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Aikidoka have simply been taught wrong.
???

The guy in the first video is amazing, but let's talk practical application...(he was planting his feet first every time)...from a bicycle or a shove: his rolls looked like Aikido rolls; to me at least.
The second video with the two guys was awesome but nothing new under the sun. I certainly wouldn't "plant" my hand; just more factors for injury.
I liked the russian guy's rolls but I wouldn't recommend that from a height at the risk of breaking my neck. Literally.
Great post thanks.
One more thing and correct me if I'm wrong but an Aikidoka's roll allows him/her to maintain a weapon in hand whereas the others we saw here excluded that possibility.

Self-discipline is the chief element of self-esteem; and self-esteem the chief element of courage. Thucydides
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Old 06-16-2011, 03:36 AM   #27
Hanna B
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Re: Ueno Chimp Rolls

Old thread... but nevertheless. The topic shouldn't go easily outdated. The bolding in the quote below was added by me.

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Among my judoka friends, the only complaints regarding shoulder injuries are a) if one took BAD ukemi, took a makikomi fall or got pile-driven - in other words, one inescapably fell on the shoulder b) cranked too hard in a lock. But I never heard people complaining about chronic shoulder problems due to rolling, which is quite common in aikido.
Aikidoka have simply been taught wrong. It looks good to fall with the fingers in line with the lead foot toe - one goes in a big arch like a hoop. And if you are a young person - with significant athletic talent and thick flexible tendons - you'll have no trouble. But if you are not that - welcome to chronic, unnecessary injuries.
While I do think that there are great advantages in avoiding crossing the spine mid-back... is there really that much chronic shoulder problems due to rolling? I never heard about it.

Judo people learn front rolls, of course, but does a judo player during 100 hours of training do as many rolls as an aikidoist? I somehow doubt that. Falls, yes. But not necessarily rolls, or? I admit I never trained in judo, but I imagine the front rolls taught in judo varies quite a bit also. Perhaps I should visit a judo dojo and watch, just to check what their rolling looks like.

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote: View Post
Here is a Parkour roll tutorial, a bit cheesy, but good. These guys teach that you should change the angle depending on how hard the surface is. If the ground is soft, like grass, roll more like the trad aikido style. If the ground is hard, roll more Ueno Zoo chimp style.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OnrS...eature=related
Not sure if there is or isnt't a parkour way or rolling, but these guys are mainly Bujinkan people. The shuriken and stuff in the vid is a hint and they talked about it on Swedish web forums at the time they created Team Ukemi. The way they roll placing the hands and forearms on the ground is typical of that style.


Quote:
Eugene Leslie wrote: View Post
I liked the russian guy's rolls but I wouldn't recommend that from a height at the risk of breaking my neck. Literally.
Great post thanks.
One more thing and correct me if I'm wrong but an Aikidoka's roll allows him/her to maintain a weapon in hand whereas the others we saw here excluded that possibility.
I doubt the Russian guy would roll like that in high speed or from a height. That exercise must be for some other purpose... or? Difficult to tell when you don't speak Russian :-)

Regarding weapons in hands, and the second vid - I think most Bujinkan people roll more with weapons in hands that most aikido people do. FWIW

Last edited by Hanna B : 06-16-2011 at 03:38 AM.
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Old 06-16-2011, 12:48 PM   #28
Janet Rosen
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Re: Ueno Chimp Rolls

Hanna, my newbie shoulder separation still gives me near daily pain and stiffness fifteen years later and I suspect I'm not unique...it is a pretty common newbie aikido injury during learning forward rolls and I sure wouldnt have minded learning a different way.

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Old 06-16-2011, 02:09 PM   #29
Basia Halliop
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Re: Ueno Chimp Rolls

If the most common problem is for people just learning how to roll, then what matters is how easy it is to learn, right? And how damaging the most common mistakes you would tend to make would be? Not so much how they work once you do them well.

Unless there are more shoulder problems among more experienced 'rollers' than I'm aware of. If I understand right, though, I was under the impression that rolling injuries are mostly a problem of people during the initial learning curve, i.e., when the roll doesn't come out quite right.
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Old 06-16-2011, 02:39 PM   #30
grondahl
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Re: Ueno Chimp Rolls

Iīve experimented with teaching beginners systema-like (probably far from real systema-rolls) rolls from seiza/kneestanding with some success. Itīs seems easier to get a slow roll without "bumps" that way.
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Old 06-16-2011, 03:37 PM   #31
Dave de Vos
 
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Re: Ueno Chimp Rolls

In the beginning, my shoulders were hurting after classes with a lot of rolling, but it slowly got better. My left shoulder took longer to get better than my right shoulder.

Now they don't hurt anymore, even after classes with a lot of rolling. It took me about 100 dojo hours.
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Old 06-16-2011, 04:07 PM   #32
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Re: Ueno Chimp Rolls

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
In the beginning, my shoulders were hurting after classes with a lot of rolling, but it slowly got better. My left shoulder took longer to get better than my right shoulder.

Now they don't hurt anymore, even after classes with a lot of rolling. It took me about 100 dojo hours.
Following a 35 year hiatus from Aikido I have just completed my sixth consecutive week back attending classes. I am finding ukemi to be the hardest thing to "remember" how to do properly and I too have had sore shoulders to show for it. Eventually, getting down to the right weight, building core strength and regular stretching should help me "remember" quite a bit of what I have forgotten about ukemi. I'm finding suwari waza ryote-tori kokyu ho to be something I remember fairly well however. I believe this is due, at least in part, to the fact that almost every class I took years ago ended with this basic practice.
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Old 06-16-2011, 10:37 PM   #33
JW
 
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Re: Ueno Chimp Rolls

Good call with ressurecting this, Hannah.
I think ultimately I need to get the Ground Up video.. but the conversation is still great in the meantime, and my brain has been able to put this information together better today, just from re-reading this.

What do you guys think, here's what I am starting to think based on the info here, especially Charles' description, Joep's reply to me, and Eugene's caveats:

When you roll, you spread impact across the whole path of the ground-body contact spot-- but the first moments of contact take more force than the rest. (Impulse is greater in the first half of the roll then the 2nd.) If you have a big vertical drop (threshold for "big" depends on how hard your surface is) then you want 2 things: keep the point-of-contact's spinal crossing confined to the 2nd half of the roll, and minimize time of contact with shoulder region. Result = Ueno chimp roll.

If you on the other hand you have low fall height, possibly with significant sideways momentum (or use your outstretched arm for sideways traction like the Russion guy), then you have another good (best?) option: you use the scapular "drawbridge" to get the point of contact across the spine with protection. So the upper pelvis area and lower back don't bear much, or do much work. Result = the russian roll.

The midpoint-crossing roll being criticized here ("aikido roll") is a compromise/mix of the strengths of these 2, but has significant problems that are particular to it-- particularly dealing with the stressful and strength-intensive arm-to-shoulder portion of the roll.

A lot of thinking.. but ultimately I think I want to go out and play with these and feel what they are each best for..
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Old 06-17-2011, 03:50 AM   #34
Charles Hill
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Re: Ueno Chimp Rolls

A lot of great comments. I especially like Jonathon's last post, a good summation. I have worked with a lot of beginners on rolls, in both Aikido and Systema classes. Here are my current thoughts.

The cause of the vast majority of problems in rolling comes from a lack of flexibility and strength in the spine.

Rolls in response to techniques are majorly overused. Donovan Waite type ukemi work is better. Basically, instead of taking a front roll, turn and do a side or back roll.

Solo front roll practice is an excellent method to improve your health.

Pain is a signal you are doing something wrong. Don't put up with it. George Ledyard has written here that half of the sixth dans he knows cannot take even simple ukemi anymore due to physical problems.

Donovan Waite's videos are absolute must haves. Bruce Bookman's and Ellis Amdur's ukemi videos are excellent. Buy them all, work on all of it everyday, and think of how much money and pain you will save when you are old and not have to being making regular hospital visits and riding around in a wheelchair.

Charles
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Old 06-17-2011, 05:36 AM   #35
Hanna B
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Re: Ueno Chimp Rolls

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Hanna, my newbie shoulder separation still gives me near daily pain and stiffness fifteen years later and I suspect I'm not unique...it is a pretty common newbie aikido injury during learning forward rolls and I sure wouldnt have minded learning a different way.
Oh. That's bad. Are there many other stories like this?

Would you say the problem was the type of roll you were taught, or rather the pedagogic metods used how you were taught?

Most of the stories I've heard of people injuring themselves in rolls were young cocky guys competing how many people they could jump and roll over. They didn't have the skill for it, obviously, tried and failed.
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Old 06-17-2011, 10:49 AM   #36
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Re: Ueno Chimp Rolls

Way back when I first started I trained at a very busy dojo where I received a minimal amount of instruction in ukemi--just watch and do--was the prevailing attitude. Roll if you want, breakfall if you're up for it. Mostly I tried to copy the "curved unbending arm" I saw used by experienced aikidoka--as if you could get to where the advanced students were by pretending to be one. Despite this naive approach youth and flexibility kept me from getting injured. As I was reluctant to ask for special instruction at the aikido dojo I decided to join a judo dojo which was in a converted church in order to make faster progress in learning ukemi and breakfalls. I told the the judo instructor that I was mainly interested in supplementing my aikido training and he and other judoka were very open to this and taught me quite a bit to the point that high impact breakfalls became a distinct form of relaxation: after all, nage did all the work and I just went along for the ride. I will always be thankful for my time at the "judo church".

Today, at the dojo where I am taking classes, to the best of my ability, I do rolls with everyone else before instruction begins and the Shihan gives me a bit of advice as I need it. I also do one to one sessions with a Shodan at another dojo once each week. There I get intensive attention in ukemi from my instructor who, with great patience, is helping me progress albeit slowly. I may never get back to doing and enjoying high impact breakfalls but it's good to be on the journey. Interestingly enough to my mind is that the dojo where I do the 1:1 sessions is in a converted church.

Last edited by abraxis : 06-17-2011 at 10:58 AM.
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Old 06-17-2011, 11:34 AM   #37
Janet Rosen
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Re: Ueno Chimp Rolls

As a newbie injury (distinct from shoulder separations in more experienced folks, where it generally result of weird accident) shoulder separation seems most often to be result of either unbendle arm collapsing or of diving from hand contact to shoulder contact.
IME even when newbies are taught slowly from kneeling wither without direct placement of shoulder on ground, at some point early on each student has to transition to rolling over the unbendable arm and across the shoulder to do a classic aikido roll, and that is when the danger of either collapsing or diving happens.

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Old 06-17-2011, 11:35 AM   #38
Janet Rosen
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Re: Ueno Chimp Rolls

To my last post add: this is why Ellis' focus away from the top if the shoulder appeals to me.

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Old 06-17-2011, 11:50 AM   #39
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Re: Ueno Chimp Rolls

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
To my last post add: this is why Ellis' focus away from the top if the shoulder appeals to me.
I guess that is safer and more effective. Does it also mean the traditional aikido roll should not be taught to newbies or born-again newbies?
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Old 06-17-2011, 02:13 PM   #40
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Re: Ueno Chimp Rolls

Quote:
Rudy Ternbach wrote: View Post
as if you could get to where the advanced students were by pretending to be one.

Is it me or are you talking about more than just ukemi? Sounds like one of the biggest problems in all of aikido!

Well, here we are, we're working on it now.
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Old 06-17-2011, 02:22 PM   #41
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Re: Ueno Chimp Rolls

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post

Is it me or are you talking about more than just ukemi? Sounds like one of the biggest problems in all of aikido!

Well, here we are, we're working on it now.
It's not just you, Jonathan; I guess I was talking about more than just ukemi.
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