Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Spiritual

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-16-2011, 07:41 PM   #226
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Well, if you think in terms of evaluating someone as a teacher, then it makes all kinds of sense - how is it selfish?

If you think that someone who ought to be discussed isn't - why not bring then up?

Then - who did he produce that was better than he was?

Best,

Chris
Three valid points so I will address them.

Selfish: If I evaluate my teacher or boss or anyone purely on the basis of what's good for me then yes I am being selfish. Now when I say self determined and compare it to selfish then here is the difference I mean:

If such a friend or boss or teacher is behaving beligerantly, arrogantly, or destructively towards others then I can A) Tell him his behaviour concerns me, show my dissapproval (self determined) or B) Dismiss it and say it's nothing to do with me or even defend it(selfish)

Secondly: Someone being discussed who isn't. My point is that if using ones who couldn't understand what was being said as a prime example or to use as the basis of so called reason is blatantly stupid. If choosing such a route then those who did understand would have to be compared and contrasted with at the same time or else the whole line of reason is a farce.

Who did he produce who was better than him? Is that a criteria?

Wow, I wish it was. It's one of my favourites. I am the only person I know who openly states such a thing about self. I have NEVER found anyone yet who understands this let alone believe it.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2011, 07:42 PM   #227
gregstec
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
United_States
Offline
Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Greg.
Your view is my post has no merit, your opinion. Put in such a way as a statement IS dismissive.

You believe his views are close to Toheis? O.k. Such is your belief. You are spot on when you say I would be somewhat surprised.

In my experience when a persons views are similar then comments about them are respectful, full of admiration, very validatory and humble. ESPECIALLY when that person is in all respects far longer serving, far more experienced and is the renowned expert on that particular subject in that particular field, namely Aikido.

That doesn't mean I disrespect you it means due to my view and the examples given I disagree with your view.

Regards.G.
Hey Graham,

As I stated in another post, I respect your right to voice you opinions in any manner you desire as long as they don't harm others - in my opinion, I don't see Dan as being disrespectful to Tohei - actually, in private conversations, Dan has expressed the utmost regard for Tohei and his achievements stating they are absolutely essential as a first step to IS development - however, he simply states that Tohei took internal strength development only so far - others are just taking it farther that is all, and Dan is only one of them.

Greg
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2011, 07:50 PM   #228
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Hey Graham,

As I stated in another post, I respect your right to voice you opinions in any manner you desire as long as they don't harm others - in my opinion, I don't see Dan as being disrespectful to Tohei - actually, in private conversations, Dan has expressed the utmost regard for Tohei and his achievements stating they are absolutely essential as a first step to IS development - however, he simply states that Tohei took internal strength development only so far - others are just taking it farther that is all, and Dan is only one of them.

Greg
Greg.
I understand your view and respectfully disagree, as you do mine.

Thus we end in unison but not harmony.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2011, 07:53 PM   #229
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,237
United_States
Offline
Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Three valid points so I will address them.

Selfish: If I evaluate my teacher or boss or anyone purely on the basis of what's good for me then yes I am being selfish. Now when I say self determined and compare it to selfish then here is the difference I mean:

If such a friend or boss or teacher is behaving beligerantly, arrogantly, or destructively towards others then I can A) Tell him his behaviour concerns me, show my dissapproval (self determined) or B) Dismiss it and say it's nothing to do with me or even defend it(selfish)

Secondly: Someone being discussed who isn't. My point is that if using ones who couldn't understand what was being said as a prime example or to use as the basis of so called reason is blatantly stupid. If choosing such a route then those who did understand would have to be compared and contrasted with at the same time or else the whole line of reason is a farce.

Who did he produce who was better than him? Is that a criteria?

Wow, I wish it was. It's one of my favourites. I am the only person I know who openly states such a thing about self. I have NEVER found anyone yet who understands this let alone believe it.

Regards.G.
The value in a teacher is their ability to teach you something. That's why I made the original statement. I wouldn't evaluate a friend or a boss the same way - those are different relationships (although they often overlap). If you're evaluating someone's skill as a teacher why wouldn't you evaluate their ability to teach you?

I think that the goal of all good teachers is to produce someone who is better then they are. The great ones actually do so.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2011, 08:08 PM   #230
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
The value in a teacher is their ability to teach you something. That's why I made the original statement. I wouldn't evaluate a friend or a boss the same way - those are different relationships (although they often overlap). If you're evaluating someone's skill as a teacher why wouldn't you evaluate their ability to teach you?

I think that the goal of all good teachers is to produce someone who is better then they are. The great ones actually do so.

Best,

Chris
As I said, we're different in that respect.

As to 'The great ones actually do' I'd love to see your examples.

I would say that makes Takeds Sensei a great. Of course we enter the foeld of opinion here.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2011, 08:09 PM   #231
gregstec
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
United_States
Offline
Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Greg,
I am interested in your comment about Tohei Sensei reaching a certain level of Ki/I.P development, You then make the statement that mr Harden has taken the concept one step beyond Tohei sensei.On what basis do you make this assertion? Have you trained /studied directly with Tohei Sensei? If so , was it recently ?Are you competent enough to make comparisons?I say this since I am not familiar with your aikido lineage .Can you explain why you believe Mr Harden reached another level? I await your reply with much interest. Hope you are well, Cheers, Joe.
Hi Joe,

fair enough questions. First, I already supplied a little bit about my Aikido lineage and connection to Tohei's teachings in my response to Chris, but I will give a little more here.

No, I have never trained with Tohei. However, I did train with Koretoshi Maruyama, who was Tohei's first chief instructor back in the 70's when he created the Ki Society. During that time (1976/1977) he came to Guam for weeks at a time and took over training on the island; not like the one and two day seminars that head instructors do today. Am I an expert in Tohei's teachings ? , no, but I got some good quality time during the initial days of the organization's development with its chief instructor. Also during that time, there were after hours private sessions on Kiatsu with key personnel on the island - as being only a sankyu at that time I was a nobody, but I always got invited along by Kalama sensei because I bought the beer

As far as a comparison with Dan, let's just say that this is a major topic of our discussions when we talk, which just today we talked over an hour and the subject of ki and Tohei was at the core of that discussion. Bottom line is that Dan does not disrespect Tohei and he does believe his Ki teachings are crucial to establishing a firm foundation for internal strength development; however, his teachings just did not go into more detail in that area like some of the Chinese IMA systems - that is all.

Greg

Last edited by gregstec : 06-16-2011 at 08:11 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2011, 08:18 PM   #232
JO
Dojo: Aikikai de l'Université Laval
Location: Sainte-Catherine-de-la-J.-C., Québec
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 292
Canada
Offline
Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post

I have seen debates here, But I've never read the level of scorn and hatred in the type comments that have been made against me.
Between three people, I've now been called a liar, con man and a criminal on Aikiweb, and it is apparently okay to do so.
I have also learned that I am not allowed to defend myself or I am one and the same. So I just have to sit and take it.
I wouldn't get too upset about the name calling. Tony isn't the kind of guy that brings aything new to the discussion. But I do understand where he comes from. The concept of "ki" in aikido suffers greatly from the large number of people doing soft flowy aikido with no backbone behind it and there have been people making claims of martial power that really were frauds. The group I train in is somewhat dominated by people who have no patience for those who are too soft because they usually aren't able to keep up with them on the mat. If your skills and your ability to teach them live up to your posts, maybe that will change.

He is also right that your personal secretiveness comes across as strange in the world of today. A quick search of my posts here will tell you who I train with, which senior instructors I've met, my rank and links to my dan tests so that anyone can see at least something of what I do. Aikido is a publicly taught art where all are welcome and secrets are few, especially in North America, and it attracts those like myself that prefer things that way. We are now in the Youtube era, not having a public video out and a basic biography public is just a little weird in todays world.

You often bring up the well known people who have come around to your view, as you should since they are the only reason I bother paying any attention to these threads. But many of your claims to connection to senior aikidoka are painfully vague, with the exception of Bill Gleason. I suggest you stick to talking about the people you feel able to name specifically, as anything unverifiable is going to be viewed as suspect. But really, if you are interested in having your ideas truly having an impact in the broader aikido world, your going to have to step out a little further into the light I think.

At any rate, if the only way to find out what you and your skills look like is in person, let me know if you're ever in La Belle Province. In the martial arts, feeling is believing, everything else is blablabla.

Jonathan Olson
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2011, 08:34 PM   #233
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,237
United_States
Offline
Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Jonathan Olson wrote: View Post
You often bring up the well known people who have come around to your view, as you should since they are the only reason I bother paying any attention to these threads. But many of your claims to connection to senior aikidoka are painfully vague, with the exception of Bill Gleason. I suggest you stick to talking about the people you feel able to name specifically, as anything unverifiable is going to be viewed as suspect.
I don't know that I qualify as well known, but I have no problem at all vouching for Dan and what he can do. Just don't judge his stuff by what you may see me doing .

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2011, 09:03 PM   #234
JO
Dojo: Aikikai de l'Université Laval
Location: Sainte-Catherine-de-la-J.-C., Québec
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 292
Canada
Offline
Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I don't know that I qualify as well known, but I have no problem at all vouching for Dan and what he can do. Just don't judge his stuff by what you may see me doing .

Best,

Chris
Actually Chris, your word does have some weight with me. You've been on this forum almost as long as I have and since you post about five times as often I almost feel I know you. I haven't written Dan off at all, it's just that I can see exactly where his critics are coming from and I really feel he would come across better if he put more of himself out there.

Jonathan Olson
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2011, 09:10 PM   #235
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,237
United_States
Offline
Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Jonathan Olson wrote: View Post
Actually Chris, your word does have some weight with me. You've been on this forum almost as long as I have and since you post about five times as often I almost feel I know you. I haven't written Dan off at all, it's just that I can see exactly where his critics are coming from and I really feel he would come across better if he put more of himself out there.
You should have seen him on Aikido-L - at least he proofreads some of his stuff now .

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2011, 09:42 PM   #236
gregstec
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
United_States
Offline
Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Greg.
I understand your view and respectfully disagree, as you do mine.

Thus we end in unison but not harmony.

Regards.G.
There must be contrast in the world to maintain harmony - no ying and yang, and all will just fall apart
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2011, 09:48 PM   #237
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
Location: Peterborough, NH
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 653
United_States
Offline
Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
...I've never read the level of scorn and hatred in the type comments that have been made against me.
Between three people, I've now been called a liar, con man and a criminal on Aikiweb...
As long as it's the people who don't know you, it's just internet noise. When people who know you start joining in, then you worry.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
So, what have you gathered from the idea that Ki...was strength in the first place. Long before new age westerners tried to re-define it?
Do you understand more and starting to feel the idea of intent leading ki and ki leading strength?
Durrr... nope.

First, having given up weightlifting primarily because of you, when I was right at the point of achieving a 1.5X BW bench and 2X BW squat, you've got some balls telling me this is all strength anyway. Howabout I go back to the weight room and tell you I'm working on IP? Those muscles are internal, right?

Intent leading ki and ki leading strength... maybe I'm halfway there. Where I get to is something that doesn't feel like strength, it feels like strength became irrelevant. Is that what you mean by ki being strength? But it doesn't feel like the strength of the weight room, even when I was trying to bench press by pushing with my back (which works very well, btw).

But I'm unwilling to limit ki to that box anyway. I think there are more parts to it and defining it as "strength" as we now use it feels too limiting.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2011, 09:54 PM   #238
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
Location: Peterborough, NH
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 653
United_States
Offline
Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Oh well. Glad to hear ip is so superior to Toheis understanding. Oh not forgetting O'Senseis too.
Didn't you just agree that it should be the goal of a teacher to raise students who are better than they are? What do you think it would look like if aikidokas got better than Tohei or O-Sensei?

To paraphrase somebody-or-other, if we're standing on the shoulders of giants, what's our excuse for NOT seeing further than they?
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 02:49 AM   #239
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,266
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
Once again:

Can you please direct your discussion to the topic rather than to the people behind the topic? Let's stay away from making things personal here.

-- Jun
Dear MR Akiyama,
I suggest you address this issue [personalising ]to Mr Harden.[who passed judgement on Chiba Sensei]He is the one in this particular instance who instigated the subsequent response from Tony.Of course if you are making a general comment fine by me.
It just seems to me to be coincidental that you respond after Tony asks a valid question from D.H. Tony may well be seen as an irritant but in this instance I believe he has a point.You of course are the Moderator , so whether I agree with you or not , you call the shots. Cheers, Joe.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 02:55 AM   #240
mrlizard123
Dojo: Templegate Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 129
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Quote:
Rich Hobbs wrote: View Post
Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Oh well. Glad to hear ip is so superior to Toheis understanding. Oh not forgetting O'Senseis too.

What a farce.
This post seems a little at odds with the concept of loving that you normally say is your understanding and expression of aikido Graham, why has your approach changed?
Good question if for real.
If by "real" you mean was I asking the question or was it rhetorical then no it wasn't rhetorical.

When one espouses non-control, non-confrontation, loving compassion, etc as basic tenets of how one behaves both on and off of the mat, which I believe you have but am willing to accept correction, do statements made in the manner above gel with this?

Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 03:57 AM   #241
Dazzler
Dojo: Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 647
England
Offline
Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Ting Piao wrote: View Post
T
Some years ago Ikeda sensei's students wrote a book "Center: The Power of Aikido" http://www.amazon.com/Center-Power-A...8252023&sr=1-1 and they called Ikeda sensei's training methodology the "Second Level Training(SLT)", is this the same thing as the "next step" you talked about?......

P.S. I wish I can get a chance to attend some IS seminars in the future to experience it myself.
Good book...found it useful and interesting when I read it.

Felt that a hands on session with Dan delved much deeper into the 'internal movement' and overall body conditioning and usage though.

Think I'll read it again ...having seen Dan I think i may get more out of it now than I did previously.

IMO ...same probably applies to all of my 'normal practice'...I can carry on as before but maybe Dan has enabled me to see a little more of what was there all the time.

So I can squeeeeeeeze a little more juice from it.

Regards

D

ps. Go for it on the seminars...if its not for you....well at least you'll know, and if it is...then you'll have a whole new ballpark to play in....
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 04:22 AM   #242
Dazzler
Dojo: Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 647
England
Offline
Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote: View Post
IMO ...same probably applies to all of my 'normal practice'...I can carry on as before but maybe Dan has enabled me to see a little more of what was there all the time.

So I can squeeeeeeeze a little more juice from it.

.
To clarify this a little more...

I'm not in a position to say if Tohei was lesser than, O'sensei, or from my own lineage whether Tamura was lesser than O'sensei and Pierre Chassang was lesser than Tamura....my opinion is that of the 'minnow' from the posts above...although my small voice would shout respect for all of these people who are so far ahead of me they are specks in the distance and I am unable to see who leads the race.

What is important that they are in the direction that I'm following.

Seeing Dan and taking instruction from him is no disrespect to these people or my main instructor.

Its simply availing myself of specialist resource and reaping the benefit of the time and study invested there.

If I'd pressed on with MMA stuff...no one would bat an eyelid if I pulled in a Muay Thai guy for my standup game, or boxer. or BJJ specialist for ground game...or conditioning coach for cardio....or Yoga for flexibility.

Its normal.

A good coach would be calling these guys in to work with his students.

I dont see a variance here and think we should look past the emotion around suggesting someone might have improved upon the transmission skills of those we hold dear.

FWIW

D
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 09:00 AM   #243
chillzATL
Location: ATL
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 847
United_States
Offline
Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Greg,
I am interested in your comment about Tohei Sensei reaching a certain level of Ki/I.P development, You then make the statement that mr Harden has taken the concept one step beyond Tohei sensei.On what basis do you make this assertion? Have you trained /studied directly with Tohei Sensei? If so , was it recently ?Are you competent enough to make comparisons?I say this since I am not familiar with your aikido lineage .Can you explain why you believe Mr Harden reached another level? I await your reply with much interest. Hope you are well, Cheers, Joe.
Joe,

I see that Greg already responded, but I would like too as well. He and I have very similar lineages. My instructor was a student of Ueshiba and Tohei. He was close with Tohei and initially went with him after the split and was one of his shihans. So I'm pretty familiar with methods and I'm also on the IP path, so to speak.

If you break IS/IP down into its components and look at what Tohei said and tried to teach, the similarities are unmistakable. His four basic principles were all about creating a relaxed, connected and balanced body that moves from the hara/dantien and uses that body to connect with and control another person. There are a lot of aspects to that, but that's the basic gist of it. The problem is that nothing he taught was very clear in relation to what you're supposed to get out of it.. You're never told that all of the exercises and things he taught were for this very specific body development. What people like Dan and Mike are doing is taking that same basic idea and cleaning it up. They're filling in the gaps, explaining things better and doing exercises and drills that are more clear with an easy to understand end result.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 09:17 AM   #244
gregstec
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
United_States
Offline
Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
Joe,

I see that Greg already responded, but I would like too as well. He and I have very similar lineages. My instructor was a student of Ueshiba and Tohei. He was close with Tohei and initially went with him after the split and was one of his shihans. So I'm pretty familiar with methods and I'm also on the IP path, so to speak.

If you break IS/IP down into its components and look at what Tohei said and tried to teach, the similarities are unmistakable. His four basic principles were all about creating a relaxed, connected and balanced body that moves from the hara/dantien and uses that body to connect with and control another person. There are a lot of aspects to that, but that's the basic gist of it. The problem is that nothing he taught was very clear in relation to what you're supposed to get out of it.. You're never told that all of the exercises and things he taught were for this very specific body development. What people like Dan and Mike are doing is taking that same basic idea and cleaning it up. They're filling in the gaps, explaining things better and doing exercises and drills that are more clear with an easy to understand end result.
Well said plus they have added aspects of Chinese methods as well to their trainings that add additional perspectives on the same objectives.

Greg
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 09:24 AM   #245
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Strength vs Ki.

For years I avoided using the word ki and opted for aiki. Ki gets you into trouble from the jump, even the Asians don't agree.
Everyone has assigned their own definitions from
Practical, energy in external muscle form,
Practical (more accurate in my view) ki energy in breath power/muscle/tendon/fascia form,
Typical repackaged new age philosophy definitions, on to practically otherworldly Jedi Knight ideas.
It gets even worse when a beloved teacher redefined it for you. There is just no way to educate someone out of that. In their eyes you are invalidating their cherished asian/teacher experience.
And very few are concerned with what it was supposed to be at its inception
The default for many modern people is to have the attitude that ...I...can decide what something means, and then validate it by consensus.
With ki we are taking a concept, not are own, and assigning it new meanings, and then everyone is told to accept all of them as equal, after all..we are entitled to equal opinion...right?

It gets even more difficult when we use physical skill to erroneously validate/invalidate someone;
Person a's opinions is discounted because they physically cannot produce anything meaningful and compelling.
Person b is given too much credibility because he has daunting physical skills. His opinion or take on things is considered gospel by his followers.
I'm not going to play referee and say who is right or wrong. It's a no win situation.

It was like trying to tell a bunch of modern weapons guys in love with Japanese swords that they were NOT the best swords in the world. Metallurgically, it can be proved true, but there are so many books wrought with errors, so many beloved teachers saying katana are the best swords in the world, , so much "evidence" that we can believe in that supports our "Mysteries of East" hopefulness, and pride of being a part, that it's a no win situation.

Cheers
Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 09:40 AM   #246
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Strength vs Ki.

One other thing you also have to add is the even more confusing aspects of...ki in use or ai(ki). You see people that obviously lack power and connection twirling about avoiding power because they have not one clue how to internally deal with power.
Their "aiki" is similar to taiji people noodling. They are empty shirts running away from being caught because when they do they are stuck.
Use of ki and spiral energy and being able to demonstrably split incoming force and take it apart at its root and either play with that division or send it back, or dump it, while standing there unmoved was the cornerstone of the art. It is the reason aikido looked so different from Koryu that it was given the name "The art of Aiki" in the first place (by a committee hosting an Embu).
The big evasive movements used for multiple attacker avoidance / setup has since erroneously become the model for what ai(ki) really was.
Aiki is balanced energy in you. Once you have achieved that balance within yourself it is easy to join their force with yours and manipulate it.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 06-17-2011 at 09:42 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 09:55 AM   #247
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,266
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
Joe,

I see that Greg already responded, but I would like too as well. He and I have very similar lineages. My instructor was a student of Ueshiba and Tohei. He was close with Tohei and initially went with him after the split and was one of his shihans. So I'm pretty familiar with methods and I'm also on the IP path, so to speak.

If you break IS/IP down into its components and look at what Tohei said and tried to teach, the similarities are unmistakable. His four basic principles were all about creating a relaxed, connected and balanced body that moves from the hara/dantien and uses that body to connect with and control another person. There are a lot of aspects to that, but that's the basic gist of it. The problem is that nothing he taught was very clear in relation to what you're supposed to get out of it.. You're never told that all of the exercises and things he taught were for this very specific body development. What people like Dan and Mike are doing is taking that same basic idea and cleaning it up. They're filling in the gaps, explaining things better and doing exercises and drills that are more clear with an easy to understand end result.
Dear Jason,
Thanks for your input here,First let me say I meant no disrespect when I asked Mr Streckel about his aikido pedigree.It was simply to find out whether his critique was based on sound foundations.
In my experience the Japanese method of teaching is not exactly in line with what we in the West consider to be 'Good teaching methods'
.People in the West want to know the Whys/wherefores/reasons etc of everything.In a word they want Aikido in a plate.People of my generation rarely if ever asked questions, we simply did[action orientated].Doing was the name of the game .Now people try and analyse things to the nth degree.Whole reams of internet mail are written and theories are expressed .Sometimes I just blank out when I read some stuff on this forum.Do we need to know reasons?Can we not simply practice under a competent teacher and find our own way?
Maybe I am being too simplistic here.Theory is no good without practice.
Cheers, Joe.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 09:57 AM   #248
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,266
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Jason,
Thanks for your input here,First let me say I meant no disrespect when I asked Mr Streckel about his aikido pedigree.It was simply to find out whether his critique was based on sound foundations.
In my experience the Japanese method of teaching is not exactly in line with what we in the West consider to be 'Good teaching methods'
.People in the West want to know the Whys/wherefores/reasons etc of everything.In a word they want Aikido in a plate.People of my generation rarely if ever asked questions, we simply did[action orientated].Doing was the name of the game .Now people try and analyse things to the nth degree.Whole reams of internet mail are written and theories are expressed .Sometimes I just blank out when I read some stuff on this forum.Do we need to know reasons?Can we not simply practice under a competent teacher and find our own way?
Maybe I am being too simplistic here.Theory is no good without practice.
Cheers, Joe.
Please note I incorrectly typed Mr Steckel name wrongly.I apologise for my one poor typing skills.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 10:14 AM   #249
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Jason,
People in the West want to know the Whys/wherefores/reasons etc of everything. In a word they want Aikido in a plate.
1. People of my generation rarely if ever asked questions, we simply did[action orientated].
2. Doing was the name of the game.
3. Do we need to know reasons?
4. Can we not simply practice under a competent teacher and find our own way?
5. Theory is no good without practice.
Cheers,
Joe.
Joe I think you just outlined the reason for the disaster of the martial arts. You didn't agree with my assessment of Chiba, but you just defined him. Let's use your model of just shut up and train under a competent teacher and all will be well...er...right?

Okay, what do we know?
Ueshiba showed up at Hombu when his kid was running the place and boomed...."This is not my aikido!"
He would then lecture them on heaven/earth/man, ki and the kotodama.
Chiba: "Nobody understood him. We couldn't wait for the old man to shut up so we could train."

There are some excellent articles about who was actually teaching those guys back then, and about the artificially inflated ranks in a short time frame.
Six years later Mr Chiba (equal to 1st kyu by todays standards but then a 6th dan) went out to teach the world...his...Aikido,
So how on earth do you extrapolate he was teaching Ueshiba's aiki?
Thus demonstrating the fallacy of your last comment.
Theory is no good without practice.
I say
Practice without theory is no good either.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 06-17-2011 at 10:23 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2011, 10:17 AM   #250
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Strength vs Ki.

One other thing about ki ...being...strength, rather than ki...instead of strength: Older definition: Mind leads intent, Intent leads ki, Ki leads strength.
A neat little definition of the kanji 勁 for Jin force.
It is meant to account for intent, making strength.
'Jin' is made up of the character for an underground river (巠 Jing) placed next to 'Mechanical Force' (力 Li) There are other models for what jing is as well, but to keep it simple, the idea of intent being what is happening beneath the surface, or inside the body, what is internally making up the movement to produce strength.

Dan
P.S. Note on translator:
I don't agree with many (any?) of the guys views on other things, so how accurate his translation of the kanji is, is up for grabs. I do like the idea though.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ki energy defined Guest_779 General 111 08-16-2013 10:50 AM
Poll: If you could be uke for yourself, would you be able to throw yourself? AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 72 08-07-2013 06:16 PM
The strength of the Japanese spirit Guillaume Erard External Aikido Blog Posts 0 02-28-2011 05:30 AM
Ki Eureka David Orange Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 45 01-23-2011 11:03 AM
Observing the USE of KI? drDalek Training 3 07-11-2002 11:15 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:47 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2016 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2016 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate