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Old 06-16-2011, 07:15 AM   #126
DH
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
You hope in vain . ..
Looks like your query about Okamoto's basic Roppokai exercise was lost in the dust, Keith. You might want to restart it as its own thread, or perhaps direct your question via PM to Howard Popkin, who does have solid experience with Daito Ryu Kodokai and Daito Ryu Roppokai, and is very good with analysis and explanation.

What I can say is that, from my very limited experience and understanding, Okamoto's exercise seems to tune in on some aspects of aiki age--as well as the opening moves to shiko as Dan Harden teaches it--specifically with respect to the wrists, forearms and shoulders. This version of shiko is rooted in Daito ryu, but Dan teaches it in a way that incorporates his understanding of internal connection and spiraling.
No Tom, Aiki age is but one thing happening. In reality there is an array of forces at work on contact. The arms are what you "see" in that opening move in shiko and they demonstrate some simple and yet profound measure of what is going on...on the inside. They are connected and moving with everything else, and display different qualities.
That's another compelling argument for what Hong style was saying about Chansi jin being the one jin and not peng. That the spiral contains all jins: in, out, up, down, leading, warding, pressing down, lifting etc. It's an interesting argument.
In any event, in a similar way, it's why you can feel the back of my knee and feel aiki age happening and meanwhile my opposite arm is leading and sendng someone else off in a different directon. Or you can have guys grabbing either side of you and one guy getting whipped up and off to the right and the other being sucked in and down on the left with one movement.

Anyway, one of the exercises Okomoto privately does and Howard did to me, was meant to test and display a connection and use of Kua, mingmen/ Dantian...to off someone, without the shoulders/ hands being used much at all...then...the body with the arms. As has been noted on certain other boards...these thgins are just not shown to everyone. I get a kick out of certain people who say this or that is not in an art, the information certain groups are getting from these folks is B.S. from the start. It's just more dissinformation from the unknowing, being called fact.

When it comes to perceived motion and how you manage it, there is no division of power without the driver being Dantian. If you remember the first rules of the hands returning to the body What is pulling on those hands? Without the connection, you just end up pulling like your average MAer. Once you consider what is leading/ pulling on what that aiki comes to the fore.
Going back to that Okomoto exercise; it interesting how soft it is, and how it enables you to test just the body only or the whole system. It becomes quite evident where someone's skill is at, when they are getting bounced out, depressed or popped sideways.

What is evident in the body conditioning remains consistent without change, as the application level moves forward into weapons or MMA. It's kinda neat to go from weapons, to wrist grabs, to 4oz gloves with one body method.
All the best
Dan
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Old 06-16-2011, 08:20 AM   #127
gregstec
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Wow, go away for a few days and come back to find things have not changed with all the usual suspects politely exchanging their views

Anyway, to get back on track with the basics - IMO, what Dan is teaching should be at the core of basic teachings in ALL aiki arts - it simply develops the foundation that an aiki system is built on.

Since I am here, I also would like to just comment briefly on the marketing and con man accusations made recently concerning Dan. To be blunt, it is absolute BS ! - the man is honest and generous to a fault - any further discussion in this area by those that do no know Dan will be wrong and considered in extremely bad taste.

Now I am sure that last paragraph will result in some thinking "here is another one of Dan's disciples coming to defend him from the attack of the self righteous naysayers" - well, not true. Let me tell you all a little bit about Dan's camp. First, disciple kind of indicates we are followers, nothing can be further from the truth since all of Dan's people I have met are either leaders of their groups, totally independent, or just plain rogues out doing their own thing because what they have been getting from the main stream of their arts just was not cutting it for them. We are the type of people that don't take the 'kool aid" and don't buy 'snake oil' - actually, we greatly despise those that dispense with that type of BS and feel sorry for those that have fallen in those traps.

The bottom line on all of this is that Dan has his reasons for no videos and has stated so a few time in some of his posts and is getting tired of hearing the same requests over and over again - respect the man's position on this and just move on. If you don't believe in what he is saying, say so and just move on. He is not building an organization and probably is going to walk away from public training soon because of the BS. Dan is just a guy who found something special from all his searching and training in IS and simply thought it would be great to share it with those that have his passion for it - if that is not you, so be it, just move on.

Greg

Last edited by gregstec : 06-16-2011 at 08:33 AM.
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Old 06-16-2011, 08:44 AM   #128
phitruong
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

greg, you could have said it shorter, for example, www.moveon.org

besides, basics are boring and tedious. we are budo people. we have the need to kick ass and take name. we have the belt and the hakama, right? we can do advance stuffs right off the bat. so lets not belabor on the basic stuffs.
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Old 06-16-2011, 09:37 AM   #129
gregstec
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
greg, you could have said it shorter, for example, www.moveon.org
-I hate politics -

Greg
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Old 06-16-2011, 10:34 AM   #130
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
No Tom, Aiki age is but one thing happening. In reality there is an array of forces at work on contact. The arms are what you "see" in that opening move in shiko and they demonstrate some simple and yet profound measure of what is going on...on the inside. They are connected and moving with everything else, and display different qualities.
That's another compelling argument for what Hong style was saying about Chansi jin being the one jin and not peng. That the spiral contains all jins: in, out, up, down, leading, warding, pressing down, lifting etc. It's an interesting argument.
In any event, in a similar way, it's why you can feel the back of my knee and feel aiki age happening and meanwhile my opposite arm is leading and sendng someone else off in a different directon. Or you can have guys grabbing either side of you and one guy getting whipped up and off to the right and the other being sucked in and down on the left with one movement.

Anyway, one of the exercises Okomoto privately does and Howard did to me, was meant to test and display a connection and use of Kua, mingmen/ Dantian...to off someone, without the shoulders/ hands being used much at all...then...the body with the arms. As has been noted on certain other boards...these thgins are just not shown to everyone. I get a kick out of certain people who say this or that is not in an art, the information certain groups are getting from these folks is B.S. from the start. It's just more dissinformation from the unknowing, being called fact.

When it comes to perceived motion and how you manage it, there is no division of power without the driver being Dantian. If you remember the first rules of the hands returning to the body What is pulling on those hands? Without the connection, you just end up pulling like your average MAer. Once you consider what is leading/ pulling on what that aiki comes to the fore.
Going back to that Okomoto exercise; it interesting how soft it is, and how it enables you to test just the body only or the whole system. It becomes quite evident where someone's skill is at, when they are getting bounced out, depressed or popped sideways.

What is evident in the body conditioning remains consistent without change, as the application level moves forward into weapons or MMA. It's kinda neat to go from weapons, to wrist grabs, to 4oz gloves with one body method.
All the best
Dan
Thanks for the detailed clarification and expansion on the Okamoto exercise, Dan. The emphasis on the myriad contexts for application of one body method is something I'm appreciating more and more. I'm also getting the hang of training certain elements all the time--sitting, standing, driving. It becomes something of a sweet obsession--better than coffee and (I never thought I would say this ) better than Belgian ale. It is certainly better for you than Belgian ale.
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Old 06-16-2011, 10:46 AM   #131
DH
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Hi Tom
Yes, the single body method can be daunting because it is ingrained and a constant. Now that you can see it and have felt it, imagine me back in the 90's arguing with that guy over on e-budo about his take on aiki being small motor skills and failing in a fight. I'm speachless(well, not really) and trying to figure out where they went so far into the weeds. Same again when I see aikido people fall apart under sustained pressure. The body method shouldbe consistent and either extremely controlling or very damaging, without any change. I don't know if you saw me demo at Georges from aikido to MMA with the same method. It usually answers a lot of doubts about aikis true potential.
all the best
Dan
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Old 06-16-2011, 12:57 PM   #132
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Since I am here, I also would like to just comment briefly on the marketing and con man accusations made recently concerning Dan. To be blunt, it is absolute BS ! - the man is honest and generous to a fault - any further discussion in this area by those that do no know Dan will be wrong and considered in extremely bad taste.
You can consider any post however you want, that's your privilege. But do you really think you need to know someone personally to observe that they are engaged in marketing?
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Old 06-16-2011, 12:57 PM   #133
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
Looks like your query about Okamoto's basic Roppokai exercise was lost in the dust, ... Okamoto's exercise seems to tune in on some aspects of aiki age--
The motion is a viscously slow version of what occurs if you use the center to throw the arms out with "backspin," basically, and they reach natural limits and whip back and rise naturally upward. The whole connection throughout the body is chain-like (in tension, anyway). You can do it with a chain, too, if you like -- or an uke, if you prefer.

It is easier to see the dynamic done larger and more energetically -- but easier to refine more slowly and mindfully, as with kokyu tanden ho exercises. Both work the same, saving only that the slow tends to revert to compression action instead of tension rather easily. That has a different flavor of dynamic, as well as passing through a neutral point that sacrifices kuzushi.and loses control of the unification with the uke.

FWIW.

Aikisage is the reverse, whipping downward.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 06-16-2011, 01:37 PM   #134
gregstec
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
You can consider any post however you want, that's your privilege. But do you really think you need to know someone personally to observe that they are engaged in marketing?
No, you do not need to know someone personally to form that opinion if it is obvious there are clear business goals and objectives.

However, if you do know someone personally, you will know if they are marketing (or not) for business purposes; especially in the context of an accused 'snake oil' con man.
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Old 06-16-2011, 02:03 PM   #135
AlexF
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Hi
Just wanted to echo Gregs comments about Dan & the people who train with him or attend his seminars (those I've met at least). I met him for the first time recently in London a few weeks back. I found him to be very generous not only with his information & time, money wasnt his motivator, he just wanted to train & help, thats it. He wasn't trying to convert me to anything, he wasnt bothered if you took the information & wanted to incorporate it into your chosen martial art, no trying to sell anything, the result of the training sold itself. He didnt claim to know everything, he explained what HE found useful, why he trained what he trained, gave credit to things other people showed or told him. For his skill level he could have been massively big headed, made a ton of money selling the exclusive Harden method to internal strength but nope, just wanted to train & help. All these are my observations of spending one weekend training with Dan. Oh and he was really funny, taking the piss & being on the receiving end (which is a good sign in my book).

I'm not a Dan follower or cheerleader however this post may seem, I simply read his posts here on Aikiweb over the years & they hit a note with me, that was my only experience of him prior to the seminar. I'm a big believer of being able to tell a martial artists ability by contact. From my perspective, he was very very rooted but not stuck to the ground. Was able to go through or round my guard, hit like a train & always changing (so never in danger & always a step ahead). For me, definitely skills that I want to train & improve. He then breaks it down & gives you the tools to go away & drill it for yourself (its as if he has failed if you dont get it, hands on correction, feeling him do the exercise, intellectual discussion or visually exaggerated movement for your benefit). Geez he can't give it away any easier all you have to do is train it relentlessly (which he tells you ). 

I don't believe for a second that money is his motivator if it was hes currently losing a fortune. He's probably gonna be around for a year or 2, helping out those who are the same page as him and then disappear. His friends/training partners will miss him & those chatting shit on the web will continue with their bullshit. I just thought that somebody who met him over a weekend should give his account. I will say that it seems to match up with what most people say. 

It's a little disappointing that my first meaningful post here is to stick up for the integrity of a guy I met once a few weeks ago. Oh well.

 To Dan & Paul, hi & hope your both well.
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Old 06-16-2011, 04:07 PM   #136
aikilouis
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Still better than spending more than a thousand posts bitching and moaning, like some others do.

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Old 06-16-2011, 04:07 PM   #137
DH
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Wink Re: Basics, basics, basics

Dude!!
Look at you on aikiweb! How'd that happen?
Hey, thanks...but you revealed my exit strategy. So much for my supposed big plans huh?
I don't think many of the teachers have caught on to the fact that THEY are the long term plan....not me.
gees....I must need better marketing help....no money...extended freebies before and after.....and i'm not even a part of my long term plan.
oops!
Dan

Quote:
Alex Ferreras wrote: View Post
Hi
Just wanted to echo Gregs comments about Dan & the people who train with him or attend his seminars (those I've met at least). I met him for the first time recently in London a few weeks back. I found him to be very generous not only with his information & time, money wasnt his motivator, he just wanted to train & help, thats it. He wasn't trying to convert me to anything, he wasnt bothered if you took the information & wanted to incorporate it into your chosen martial art, no trying to sell anything, the result of the training sold itself. He didnt claim to know everything, he explained what HE found useful, why he trained what he trained, gave credit to things other people showed or told him. For his skill level he could have been massively big headed, made a ton of money selling the exclusive Harden method to internal strength but nope, just wanted to train & help. All these are my observations of spending one weekend training with Dan. Oh and he was really funny, taking the piss & being on the receiving end (which is a good sign in my book).

I'm not a Dan follower or cheerleader however this post may seem, I simply read his posts here on Aikiweb over the years & they hit a note with me, that was my only experience of him prior to the seminar. I'm a big believer of being able to tell a martial artists ability by contact. From my perspective, he was very very rooted but not stuck to the ground. Was able to go through or round my guard, hit like a train & always changing (so never in danger & always a step ahead). For me, definitely skills that I want to train & improve. He then breaks it down & gives you the tools to go away & drill it for yourself (its as if he has failed if you dont get it, hands on correction, feeling him do the exercise, intellectual discussion or visually exaggerated movement for your benefit). Geez he can't give it away any easier all you have to do is train it relentlessly (which he tells you ). 

I don't believe for a second that money is his motivator if it was hes currently losing a fortune. He's probably gonna be around for a year or 2, helping out those who are the same page as him and then disappear. His friends/training partners will miss him & those chatting shit on the web will continue with their bullshit. I just thought that somebody who met him over a weekend should give his account. I will say that it seems to match up with what most people say. 

It's a little disappointing that my first meaningful post here is to stick up for the integrity of a guy I met once a few weeks ago. Oh well.

 To Dan & Paul, hi & hope your both well.
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Old 06-16-2011, 04:14 PM   #138
DH
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Basics
So for those training it how relevant do you believe ip/ aiki is in comparison to kata training for a good balance of foundation.
Seems Ueshiba and Tohei agreed with their DR counterparts as well as the Chinese.
Do your mates agree?
cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 06-16-2011 at 04:19 PM.
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Old 06-16-2011, 04:37 PM   #139
AlexF
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Hey Dan, nothing has been revealed yet, it's part of THE carefully constructed strategy to elevate the Harden method to be more popular than Tai Chi in China. Part A, create a cult inner circle following, check, Part B propaganda, harden tshirts, logos, magazine front covers etc (in progress) Part C compulsory introduction to school curriculum worldwide, bwahaha, some people might even believe it. All I can say is your very patient and many appreciate your observations here on aikiweb & RSF even with the flak you put up with, so pls keep it up.
Here's a question for you with regards to in/up & down/out. When receiving/grounding an incoming force is it preferable to receive on the inside lines of the legs & send back on the outside lines or receive on the outside & use the inside for bouncing back? Feels like both can be done, any thoughts appreciated.
Thanks, Alex
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Old 06-16-2011, 05:00 PM   #140
AlexF
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Smile Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Basics
So for those training it how relevant do you believe ip/ aiki is in comparison to kata training for a good balance of foundation.
Seems Ueshiba and Tohei agreed with their DR counterparts as well as the Chinese.
Do your mates agree?
cheers
Dan
In my opinion, Kata/form training without incorporating movement powered by ip/aiki is an empty shell. So do you try to develop ip by carefully studying & repeating the form again & again until you get it (a la Chen Fake the Tai Chi master) or do you repeat a simple looking yet profound exercise which will be present in you (eventually) every time you move or will it (standing practise, silk reeling, rowing exercise etc). Personally I need to internalize the simple first before attempting to have it fully present during kata/form. I still practise form but for me the gold is to be found in the other training & later expressed in the form or freestyle. Neither way is wrong, just my preference for learning.
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Old 06-16-2011, 08:24 PM   #141
akiy
 
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Hi folks,

As this discussion is in the "Training" (of aikido) forum, can you please make sure to explicitly include the topic of aikido within your posts?

Thank you,

-- Jun

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Old 06-16-2011, 08:33 PM   #142
hughrbeyer
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
So for those training it how relevant do you believe ip/ aiki is in comparison to kata training for a good balance of foundation.

Seems Ueshiba and Tohei agreed with their DR counterparts as well as the Chinese.
Do your mates agree?
I have to admit, I love movement training. Meeting the attack at the right point, leading uke into a movement they can't resist because it's where they thought they wanted to go, feeling that you're on the plain of nakaima with no uke, no tori, just the eternal present, every part in exactly the place it has to be not because you planned it but because the whole movement is perfect and complete and so of course the parts have to be in the right place... it's better than sex. No it's not. But it's right up there.

Now add aiki to that? Take away the timing tricks, take away the momentum and leading tricks, take away all the muscling of the movement that was still there when you thought it wasn't, connect the body so that not only is the heel connected to the hand but every point along the connection is vibrant and alive... that's worth working for.

So my answer: What's the sound of one hand clapping? What coin has only one side?
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