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Old 06-14-2011, 09:03 PM   #101
Rabih Shanshiry
 
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Tony,

Could you please drop it or take it offline? You had an opportunity to expose Dan for the fraud you think he is when he was on your side of the pond. No amount of keyboard bullying will change the fact that you chose not to meet Dan in person when a direct invitation was on the table.

And FYI: outside of workshops where expenses need to be covered, Dan has historically offered his time and teaching without charge. Most snakeoil salesmen I know dont give their stuff away for free. So If it's a con, it's either a really bad one or it's pure genius.

We all know your point of view on this topic. If you can't contribute something constructive to the OP, at least allow others to get it back on track.

Thank you.
...rab

Last edited by Rabih Shanshiry : 06-14-2011 at 09:08 PM.
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Old 06-14-2011, 09:13 PM   #102
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Tony. On the topic of i/p or i/s or whatever I now see where they are coming from and that kind of internal strength conditioning has been around for donkeys years. So I see no qualms with it per se.

Saying that's what Ueshiba did and Tohei did I disagree with though.

More to the point though, the dressing up and presentation, the attitude, the secrecy, the boastfulness. These are the things I dislike.

A friend of mine took his wife and kids to live in some communal village in cornwall only two years ago. He went because he said they are more his kind of people. They are kind of new age types yet all working and professional. Every week there are seminars in all kinds of things spiritual from yoga to pilates to who knows what.

He kept phoning me to come down and do some Aikido as they are all in to that kind of thing. (his words) I always politely refused and it confused him because he didn't believe me when I told him theyre not my kind of spiritual.

Anyway to cut a long story short, after a year they left and came back to london a bit disillusioned and wondering how I knew they would be. You see they went there with one impression of spiritual and found something else. They found that everyone went to all these different seminars and courses yet all they did was find some principle from one that they liked and found beneficial, go away and research some more about it, repackage it and present it as a new phenomena based on old principles and make a business.

They were now the experts, people came to their courses, their asked to do presentations etc etc.

Business! Of course these people can justify theyve done this that and the other and come up with a better way of delivering, a new way hallelujah. Personally I see them as dilettantes. Dillettantes with a business mind skill hence they're always practicing and learning and developing but do have the ability to package and promote and present in a usable form.

Sound familiar?

Not my way of doing things and as to the efficacy of it well you know my view. So that's my final input on that touchy side of the equasion. I'll refrain from any more discussion on it from now on.

Regards.G.
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Old 06-14-2011, 09:51 PM   #103
hughrbeyer
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

I think Tom gets some sort of prize for "sanest post in the aiki wars" (#97).

Tim, your descriptions of Tomiki aikido correspond pretty much exactly with my experience of the style. I would characterize it as lots of emphasis on body mechanics; little emphasis on ki; no emphasis at all on IS/IP.

The "perpendicular to the line of the feet" thing is less emphasized in other styles simply because it's less important (though it's been brought up in my own ASU dojo). There are other ways to move uke. And over here we've been training to handle force coming from any direction, especially the ones where we're naturally weakest.

Mary, the laws of physics aren't suspended on the mat, but there are laws and laws. Frankly, taking a force-vector mechanical approach to something as complex as a human body, full of rigid bits and stretchy bits and bendy bits and puffy bits, combining with another body just as complex--it would be like trying to do chemistry using only nuclear physics. Yes, it's valid, at some level--but hardly practical and certainly not the best tool for the job.
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Old 06-15-2011, 04:07 AM   #104
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Rabih Shanshiry wrote: View Post
Tony,

Could you please drop it or take it offline? You had an opportunity to expose Dan for the fraud you think he is when he was on your side of the pond. No amount of keyboard bullying will change the fact that you chose not to meet Dan in person when a direct invitation was on the table.

And FYI: outside of workshops where expenses need to be covered, Dan has historically offered his time and teaching without charge. Most snakeoil salesmen I know dont give their stuff away for free. So If it's a con, it's either a really bad one or it's pure genius.

We all know your point of view on this topic. If you can't contribute something constructive to the OP, at least allow others to get it back on track.

Thank you.
...rab
Ok Rab point taken, tit for tat as far as I'm concerned. He started it I ended it.... End of story...... amen
All I really want to know is who his teachers are and see something up on video, it's all I was asking for, but it seemed to upset him?
Sorry....
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Old 06-15-2011, 04:29 AM   #105
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Tom Holz wrote: View Post
Cliff, I apologize for jumping into the middle of a conversation, but this is an interesting scenario.

Weightlifting involves one body & one nervous system, and most lifting movements are nominally intended to be stable only in-and-of themselves against inertia and gravity. Martial movements, on the other hand, involve the back-and-forth of two or more reactive neuro-muscular systems, often in the context of a larger martial scenario (e.g. battlefield). For example, it is clear to me that the best way to push a heavy cart up a hill is not the best way to push a 2-legged human in a judo match or in aikido randori. For example, if you were to go all-out pushing in judo, you would open yourself to being thrown in a way that doesn't readily apply to the cart-pushing.

The scenario Tim raised of pushing a weightlifter from behind is an excellent example because the result he describes--falling over backwards--depends on a particular common reaction in the body of the person being pushed. In my limited experience, IP/aiki training creates new posture, movement, and reaction patterns that change how a person responds to force applied by other people. These patterns were selected for their martial utility, and may or may not be relevant to other movement activity like cart-pushing or olympic-weightlifting.

(I'm a big fan of the olympic lifts for body conditioning, but training those lifts will not give you heavy hands, a ghosty feel in judo, or non-telegraphed punches. But you can't hold that against the o-lifts, because they aren't even *trying* to develop those martially-relevant qualities. That's what the IP/aiki training is for!)

In my opinion these IP/aiki posture, movement, and reaction patterns are hard to learn, explain, or see on video because they are "software" patterns trained into your body. Sometimes aspects are visible--it's easy to learn to spot a hip-powered turn or raised shoulders, for example--but other aspects require hands-on because the visual clues may be subtle, absent, or down right contradictory (e.g. someone may appear to be in an unstable position, but they feel immovable upon push-testing, or what may appear to be a light tap is actually a knockout).

I also think the existence of these IP/aiki effects (and therefore the validity of the principles behind them as well as the validity of the training that creates them) is hard to even *believe in* before they have been personally encountered because aiki effects can be so bizarre, counter to common sense, or outside the realm of one's "this is what humans do". For example, the first time someone's push on me disappeared because I was neutralizing, I literally stopped to ask "why did you stop pushing?". Of course they hadn't stopped, but that's what it felt like to me, while the other person described me as immovable. Another example: I distinctly remember the first time someone moved me without giving me a force--that I could feel--to resist. I was clearly being moved even though I could not identify the force moving me. (I asked for a couple repeats and was never able to even *find* a force to resist against, much less get ahead of that force to do anything about it.)

Tom

(To be clear, I'm not talking about anything metaphysical or outside the scope of western sports science. It's just that martial movement is not so simple. See Grey Cook's physical therapy textbook "Movement" for an introduction to the complexity present even in a simple functional movement pattern like the unloaded squat.)
Yes that is an interesting description of sorts Tom, quite eloquent if you don't mind me saying....
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Old 06-15-2011, 06:48 AM   #106
Carl Thompson
 
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Keith Gates wrote: View Post
(A novice Aikidoka and IP virgin)
Keith
How do you know you're an IP virgin? Isn't that the flip-side of It Has To Be Felt?

Carl
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Old 06-15-2011, 07:39 AM   #107
Cliff Judge
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Some days, I'd certainly like to belt people over the bonks with a bottle.
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Old 06-15-2011, 07:59 AM   #108
ewolput
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post

Tim, your descriptions of Tomiki aikido correspond pretty much exactly with my experience of the style. I would characterize it as lots of emphasis on body mechanics; little emphasis on ki; no emphasis at all on IS/IP.
When Tadayuki Satoh (judo and aikido) visited our dojo, he mentioned the use of "inner movement of the waist" to perform a sumi otoshi. You cannot say in Tomiki Aikido the emphasis is on body mechanics , other elements like "inner movement" makes a technique working in a randori enviroment. Using only inner movement will not work, but good body mechanics (basics) and inner body movement can create a succesfull technique.

Basic techniques are not the 17 techniques for randori. Tomiki sensei created judo taiso or yawara taiso to introduce aikido to judo people. Those judo taiso exercises are the core of Tomiki's aikido and not the 17-hon no kata, which are the techniques allowed in shiai. Without good basic and inner movement, those techniques will not work.

Eddy Wolput
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Old 06-15-2011, 08:48 AM   #109
jester
 
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Eddy Wolput wrote: View Post
Basic techniques are not the 17 techniques for randori. Tomiki sensei created judo taiso or yawara taiso to introduce aikido to judo people. Those judo taiso exercises are the core of Tomiki's aikido and not the 17-hon no kata, which are the techniques allowed in shiai. Without good basic and inner movement, those techniques will not work.

Eddy Wolput
I don't do Tanto Randori at all but the Basic 17 are the building blocks for all other techniques. With them you can make hundreds of variations. Judo Taiso is important and we do it every class along with the releases but the 17 contains most of those movements anyway.

We apparently see it different but that happens all the time.

-

-It seems to be all about semantics!
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Old 06-15-2011, 10:32 AM   #110
Hanna B
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Is it the normal thing at Aikiweb, these days. That a discussion about aikido basics turns into a discussion about Dan Harden?

If yes, why is it so?
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Old 06-15-2011, 11:13 AM   #111
john.burn
 
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Because Tony is fixated with the guy, i think secretly it's a bromance

Best Regards,
John

www.chishindojo.co.uk
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Old 06-15-2011, 11:34 AM   #112
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Eddy Wolput wrote: View Post
When Tadayuki Satoh (judo and aikido) visited our dojo, he mentioned the use of "inner movement of the waist" to perform a sumi otoshi. You cannot say in Tomiki Aikido the emphasis is on body mechanics , other elements like "inner movement" makes a technique working in a randori enviroment. Using only inner movement will not work, but good body mechanics (basics) and inner body movement can create a succesfull technique.

Basic techniques are not the 17 techniques for randori. Tomiki sensei created judo taiso or yawara taiso to introduce aikido to judo people. Those judo taiso exercises are the core of Tomiki's aikido and not the 17-hon no kata, which are the techniques allowed in shiai. Without good basic and inner movement, those techniques will not work.

Eddy Wolput
As always Eddy you have explained it correctly, I have also been led astray on that old argument from a technical point of view, however I have also made plenty of "discoveries" to some point the endless variations that one can find from the junanna alone as Tom says. I'm sure you have..... I think most in T/S aikido will come to conclusions in many ways as I see slight variations in waza, koryu and junnanna both. I think people will eventually find what works best for them. Once something becomes too rigid in it's application is when it becomes "conveyor belt production line aikido"
In the beginning right up to Sandan possibly, correct form kata wise, I think is quite important, but I have seen variations from teacher to teacher in how it is performed depending on varying body structure and how it was taught to them, also finding variations in my own teachers.... I tried them all and found for myself a combination that suited me. When teaching I have found that what suits one does not necessarily suit another so try to help them adjust to what helps them apply good waza but also keeping the form correct kata wise.....
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Old 06-15-2011, 11:42 AM   #113
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
John Burn wrote: View Post
Because Tony is fixated with the guy, i think secretly it's a bromance
No John I've broken the "engagement" you are free to take him how you want...... have fun......
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Old 06-15-2011, 12:32 PM   #114
Nicholas Eschenbruch
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Hanna Björk wrote: View Post
Is it the normal thing at Aikiweb, these days. That a discussion about aikido basics turns into a discussion about Dan Harden?

If yes, why is it so?
Good question... I guess people who need a lot of attention found out that it is easy to get it that way. After a while, no one cares anymore how tough you were when you were young, or who the first person to perfom aikido on the Orkney islands was, so you have to find another way to get bandwith. So you turn to IS to get attention, because you noticed some people feel passionate about it, you bs along, and then sadly Dan cannot keep his mouth --- ouch, no, dont kick me, no.... (hopping away bunny fashion, but on one leg, breathing hard through the toes of the other)
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Old 06-15-2011, 12:41 PM   #115
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Nicholas your breath must stink in the summer..
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Old 06-15-2011, 01:06 PM   #116
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Josh Philipson wrote: View Post
Nicholas your breath must stink in the summer..
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Old 06-15-2011, 01:21 PM   #117
dps
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

More information on Aikido basics via Tomiki style Aikido

http://tomikiaikido.blogspot.com/201...dosa-walk.html

dps
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Old 06-15-2011, 01:37 PM   #118
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Tony. On the topic of i/p or i/s or whatever I now see where they are coming from and that kind of internal strength conditioning has been around for donkeys years. So I see no qualms with it per se.

Saying that's what Ueshiba did and Tohei did I disagree with though.

More to the point though, the dressing up and presentation, the attitude, the secrecy, the boastfulness. These are the things I dislike.

A friend of mine took his wife and kids to live in some communal village in cornwall only two years ago. He went because he said they are more his kind of people. They are kind of new age types yet all working and professional. Every week there are seminars in all kinds of things spiritual from yoga to pilates to who knows what.

He kept phoning me to come down and do some Aikido as they are all in to that kind of thing. (his words) I always politely refused and it confused him because he didn't believe me when I told him theyre not my kind of spiritual.

Anyway to cut a long story short, after a year they left and came back to london a bit disillusioned and wondering how I knew they would be. You see they went there with one impression of spiritual and found something else. They found that everyone went to all these different seminars and courses yet all they did was find some principle from one that they liked and found beneficial, go away and research some more about it, repackage it and present it as a new phenomena based on old principles and make a business.

They were now the experts, people came to their courses, their asked to do presentations etc etc.

Business! Of course these people can justify theyve done this that and the other and come up with a better way of delivering, a new way hallelujah. Personally I see them as dilettantes. Dillettantes with a business mind skill hence they're always practicing and learning and developing but do have the ability to package and promote and present in a usable form.

Sound familiar?

Not my way of doing things and as to the efficacy of it well you know my view. So that's my final input on that touchy side of the equasion. I'll refrain from any more discussion on it from now on.

Regards.G.
You know Graham, I was thinking much the same, you have been upfront with me and that I can respect, however my directness does have a way at getting to the bottom of things, be it abrasive for some and hilarious for others, I suppose it much depends on the thickness of one's skin and skull. I don't consider myself the best "aikidoka" or "aikijudoka" (depending on how you look at it) in the world, nor am I the worst, but at least I'm honest in how I think.
P taking aside you seem an allright kind of bloke keep up the good posts, some you leave me bewildered , some quite sound but at least entertaining....
Regards
T

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 06-15-2011 at 01:39 PM.
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Old 06-15-2011, 03:32 PM   #119
hughrbeyer
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Eddy Wolput wrote: View Post
When Tadayuki Satoh (judo and aikido) visited our dojo, he mentioned the use of "inner movement of the waist" to perform a sumi otoshi. You cannot say in Tomiki Aikido the emphasis is on body mechanics , other elements like "inner movement" makes a technique working in a randori enviroment. Using only inner movement will not work, but good body mechanics (basics) and inner body movement can create a succesfull technique.
Thanks for this. Until this, I hadn't heard anything that sounded at all related to the IP/IS stuff in Tomiki aikido. Now I need to come train with you. Or maybe with Satoh Sensei. I wonder if there's a difference in how things are taught on the other side of the pond?
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Old 06-15-2011, 07:38 PM   #120
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Keith Gates wrote: View Post
If the dust has settled a little bit.....
You hope in vain . ..

Quote:
Keith Gates wrote: View Post
In seeking out some 'basic' solo exercises that I may be able to gain something useful from I found this video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIfUgUfs2FM

I am interested if anybody is able to explain in some detail the more subtle aspects of the of this apparently basic exercise, knowing that the mastery is in the detail, especially in "basic" practice.
Looks like your query about Okamoto's basic Roppokai exercise was lost in the dust, Keith. You might want to restart it as its own thread, or perhaps direct your question via PM to Howard Popkin, who does have solid experience with Daito Ryu Kodokai and Daito Ryu Roppokai, and is very good with analysis and explanation.

What I can say is that, from my very limited experience and understanding, Okamoto's exercise seems to tune in on some aspects of aiki age--as well as the opening moves to shiko as Dan Harden teaches it--specifically with respect to the wrists, forearms and shoulders. This version of shiko is rooted in Daito ryu, but Dan teaches it in a way that incorporates his understanding of internal connection and spiraling.
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Old 06-16-2011, 12:41 AM   #121
Nicholas Eschenbruch
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Josh Philipson wrote: View Post
Nicholas your breath must stink in the summer..
When an aikibunny like me reaches middle age, their breath starts to smell of silage and half-digested carrots. Summer has nothing to do with it :-) And that's only part of the smell problem.... ah well, you dont want to know. I use strong Tibetan incence to cover it up.

Back to breathing through my hands.
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Old 06-16-2011, 04:24 AM   #122
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
You know Graham, I was thinking much the same, you have been upfront with me and that I can respect, however my directness does have a way at getting to the bottom of things, be it abrasive for some and hilarious for others, I suppose it much depends on the thickness of one's skin and skull. I don't consider myself the best "aikidoka" or "aikijudoka" (depending on how you look at it) in the world, nor am I the worst, but at least I'm honest in how I think.
P taking aside you seem an allright kind of bloke keep up the good posts, some you leave me bewildered , some quite sound but at least entertaining....
Regards
T
Ha ha. ditto on the last part, it's all good fun. You know what I was thinking last night after training? I was seeing how we train differently and on some points and maybe many (who knows) may be completely at odds with each other but on one famous topic we're comrades in arms. It is amusing if nothing else.

Suddenly a thought and a tune came to mind and had me laughing my socks off. There was you and me (cartoon style) and in came the tune from Ghostbusters but instead of the words Ghostbusters in the song it came out as 'Who ya gonna call?--Scam busters!!!'

Thought that would give you a giggle.

Oh, and here's a nice spiritual validation from me to you. You do have an x factor quality which many don't have and is very pertinent to martial arts. Prepare to be hypno'd ha ha.

From my view you have a much misunderstood and quite rare quality and that is warrior spirit.

Maybe you should make a course out of it, a nice scam.

Regards.G.
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Old 06-16-2011, 04:41 AM   #123
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Ha ha. ditto on the last part, it's all good fun. You know what I was thinking last night after training? I was seeing how we train differently and on some points and maybe many (who knows) may be completely at odds with each other but on one famous topic we're comrades in arms. It is amusing if nothing else.

Suddenly a thought and a tune came to mind and had me laughing my socks off. There was you and me (cartoon style) and in came the tune from Ghostbusters but instead of the words Ghostbusters in the song it came out as 'Who ya gonna call?--Scam busters!!!'

Thought that would give you a giggle.

Oh, and here's a nice spiritual validation from me to you. You do have an x factor quality which many don't have and is very pertinent to martial arts. Prepare to be hypno'd ha ha.

From my view you have a much misunderstood and quite rare quality and that is warrior spirit.

Maybe you should make a course out of it, a nice scam.

Regards.G.
With jam?...... One lump or two?
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Old 06-16-2011, 05:04 AM   #124
graham christian
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
With jam?...... One lump or two?
What??? Us folks like condensed milk in our tea if you don't mind, oh and bacon sani. (of course officially I don't eat pork)

My God, how ignorant can you be? Pull yourself together man , you're British!!!
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Old 06-16-2011, 05:42 AM   #125
john.burn
 
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Maybe you should make a course out of it, a nice scam.
A bit like this you mean... "Martial Arts & Aikido tuition itself will be completely free of charge!!"

followed by

"Prospective applicants will be expected to lay down a small deposit (Non returnable) and will be asked to pay for one month of overhead fees a month in advance ..... The amount to be decided once costs are established and worked out.....
We approximate that as a "once only" £10 deposit and £24 - £25 a month dojo fees, Once or twice weekly training sessions"

Hmmm, free tuition but you pay overhead fees? WTF! Sounds like a scam to me so I think he's already doing it. Snake Oil by any other name me thinks. If you base that on one class then it's about £6 a lesson... Hmmmmm, with all of the hours Dan put in with people outside of the training and on the seminar itself, probably worked out the same rate or less - plus Dan would have refunded the seminar fee too if anyone was so aggrieved with what he was teaching your deposit is non-refundable.

I've bowed out of the ki wars on here but Tony is a huge fan of allegedly calling it as he see's it. Well, all of the above is off his own website for all to see. I'm not sticking up for Dan on here but fairs fair Tony, if people are coming along to you, and you are teaching them, and money is changing hands from them to you (after the £10 no refundable deposit no less) then seriously, you don't think they're paying you and it's all free tuition?

My dojo doesn't make money, it pays for it's overheads but to market the fact that you aren't charging for tuition but charge dojo fees? seriously? Just say there's a monthly fee to train, your ploy doesn't add up, of course people are paying you to teach, you're just using that to cover costs, like most any place. Why try to market it as something it's not?

Best Regards,
John

www.chishindojo.co.uk
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