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Old 06-13-2011, 04:57 PM   #51
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
No I wasn't spitting in your face Dan, I noticed that you deleted very quickly as a second thought...... I just like to get to the bottom of things that's all. You see, again you have had a wee go at me and I may have brought out your true nature, but as you say good bye and good luck, and please try to be a bit more upfront, the "secret" ploy has been around for some time and doesn't work on me, and a few others I know...
God luck in your Aiki IP a new style? who knows.....?
Tony. May I introduce you to a spiritual principle translated into a rule of thumb in life. All good things are never justified, justifications are only given to hide something.

When you nick a biscuit from your Mums cupboard you then have to hide it and keep it secret and if found out or asked why you were in the kitchen you have to justify it. Very simple really.

Now if you had permission in the first place you wouldn't have to hide anything or justify anything either. You just say what you did.

It amazes me how people fall for such nonsenses as 'stealing knowledge' and justify it by saying it's because the teachers were holding things back. Somehow in their reasoning that makes stealing good. Notice though that they are then the same people who are scared of others stealing their special way. Hence we have the developement of koryus 'protecting' the truth.

Regards.G.
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Old 06-14-2011, 03:31 AM   #52
Chris Knight
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Graham G, it appears you have some kind of agenda against Dan...
your rambling posts aren't very nice to read.

Whats clear to me is this; Eric, Tony, Graham have never trained with Dan.

I haven't, my Sensei has, a military man of 20 years working as a doorman 4 nights a week, having met the vast majority of Ushi Deschi available to him. If he's impressed by Dan's AIKI, so am I

Why shout down someone who's trying to help us all?

Cordially
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:23 AM   #53
graham christian
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post
Graham G, it appears you have some kind of agenda against Dan...
your rambling posts aren't very nice to read.

Whats clear to me is this; Eric, Tony, Graham have never trained with Dan.

I haven't, my Sensei has, a military man of 20 years working as a doorman 4 nights a week, having met the vast majority of Ushi Deschi available to him. If he's impressed by Dan's AIKI, so am I

Why shout down someone who's trying to help us all?

Cordially
Chris. I do not have an agenda against Dan or anyone. Why are my posts uncomfortable for you?

I have never insulted him personally yet I have pulled him up on some points, on some views of his. Yes I have challenged some of his views and if you find that uncomfortable then so be it.

Why do I do it? To clear certain points for better understanding. As someone else said if you are told or asked or invited to buy something it's a good idea for the seller to give you a good picture of what they are selling. When they do not they create suspicion and distrust. If they cannot see this then they are not taking responsibility for their own actions are they?

Thus I say that Dan may believe doing things in such a manner is right but I believe it can only result in the ongoing scene.

If car manufacturers used his way of doing things then we would never see any details about the cars we want to buy would we? We would only therefore be able to go on hearsay and reports.

Now if I was to pay first and then go and try out a car and low and behold find it to be just what I'm looking for then that only makes it even more bizarre.

Regards.G.
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Old 06-14-2011, 05:01 AM   #54
Chris Knight
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Chris. I do not have an agenda against Dan or anyone. Why are my posts uncomfortable for you?

I have never insulted him personally yet I have pulled him up on some points, on some views of his. Yes I have challenged some of his views and if you find that uncomfortable then so be it.

Why do I do it? To clear certain points for better understanding. As someone else said if you are told or asked or invited to buy something it's a good idea for the seller to give you a good picture of what they are selling. When they do not they create suspicion and distrust. If they cannot see this then they are not taking responsibility for their own actions are they?

Thus I say that Dan may believe doing things in such a manner is right but I believe it can only result in the ongoing scene.

If car manufacturers used his way of doing things then we would never see any details about the cars we want to buy would we? We would only therefore be able to go on hearsay and reports.

Now if I was to pay first and then go and try out a car and low and behold find it to be just what I'm looking for then that only makes it even more bizarre.

Regards.G.
Your posts aren't related to martial arts or aikido/aiki and more of nitpicking about conspiracy theories, marketing ploys and general tittle tattle. How about you go for a test drive, and then come back and let us know? These aren't highly publicised/marketed sessions with Dan, which is why I missed out on going. Maybe he's just not interested in teaching people who don't like him? and make it obvious?? which is why these top level people dont digress information for fear of letting numpties get hold of it

This isn't aimed at yourself, just numpties in general
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Old 06-14-2011, 05:22 AM   #55
DH
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Why do I do it? To clear certain points for better understanding. As someone else said if you are told or asked or invited to buy something it's a good idea for the seller to give you a good picture of what they are selling. When they do not they create suspicion and distrust. If they cannot see this then they are not taking responsibility for their own actions are they?
Thus I say that Dan may believe doing things in such a manner is right but I believe it can only result in the ongoing scene.
If car manufacturers used his way of doing things then we would never see any details about the cars we want to buy would we? We would only therefore be able to go on hearsay and reports.

Now if I was to pay first and then go and try out a car and low and behold find it to be just what I'm looking for then that only makes it even more bizarre.

Regards.G.
Graham
Like Tony, you are either alluding to or outright saying that I am a con man and that people are being conned. You have no grounds for stating these things and have made no intelligent argument.
Who are you two, to make any statement at all? If you don't want to attend, then don't. You have no grounds to call the judgment of those who do into doubt, nor my own efforts that are being received so well.

This forum and its some of it's members apparently approve of such baseless accusations, I do not.

* What I teach at seminars is described in the brochure.
* I have never read an Aikido seminar brochure that was as detailed as mine.
* The many write ups have explained it further, after the fact.
* Of 782 attendees I have had three people who were not satisfied.
* Most people have stated it was too much information, not less.
* I have an extremely high return rate

It has not escaped my attention, that you do not address the people who attend these seminars...directly (many of whom are senior teachers in the art).
The reason you and Tony don't address them, is that there is no credible way for either of you to intelligently dismiss their expertise, judgment and involvement, so instead you wisely ignore any direct attacks on such a wide range of people.
You are in fact calling all of them....fools.
This will be it for you and me. I'll not speak with you again.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 06-14-2011 at 05:26 AM.
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Old 06-14-2011, 05:37 AM   #56
Nicholas Eschenbruch
Dojo: TV Denzlingen
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

On a sightly humorous note, it would be great if Graham Christian, Tony Wagstaffe and Alberto Italiano had been invented by some IT whizzkid troll to keep the IS debate going on forever after it had already been quite, well, dead for some people, resolved for others :-)

No hard feelings please... just could not help myself.
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Old 06-14-2011, 05:53 AM   #57
DH
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Nicholas Eschenbruch wrote: View Post
On a sightly humorous note, it would be great if Graham Christian, Tony Wagstaffe and Alberto Italiano had been invented by some IT whizzkid troll to keep the IS debate going on forever after it had already been quite, well, dead for some people, resolved for others :-)

No hard feelings please... just could not help myself.
Hi Nicholas
If you read through, you will see their so called "positions" are very fluid. There is no real communication going on with these guys, they're drive by shooters. Other than addressing some of their rather bizarre and poorly thought through points, discussion with them is a waste of time.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 06-14-2011, 05:53 AM   #58
chillzATL
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Nicholas Eschenbruch wrote: View Post
On a sightly humorous note, it would be great if Graham Christian, Tony Wagstaffe and Alberto Italiano had been invented by some IT whizzkid troll to keep the IS debate going on forever after it had already been quite, well, dead for some people, resolved for others :-)

No hard feelings please... just could not help myself.
An Army of Bots Controlled By One Guy! I'm pretty sure it's not possible to code a Tony though, as interesting as that might be.
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Old 06-14-2011, 06:07 AM   #59
graham christian
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Graham
Like Tony, you are either alluding to or outright saying that I am a con man and that people are being conned. You have no grounds for stating these things and have made no intelligent argument.
Who are you two, to make any statement at all? If you don't want to attend, then don't. You have no grounds to call the judgment of those who do into doubt, nor my own efforts that are being received so well.

This forum and its some of it's members apparently approve of such baseless accusations, I do not.

* What I teach at seminars is described in the brochure.
* I have never read an Aikido seminar brochure that was as detailed as mine.
* The many write ups have explained it further, after the fact.
* Of 782 attendees I have had three people who were not satisfied.
* Most people have stated it was too much information, not less.
* I have an extremely high return rate

It has not escaped my attention, that you do not address the people who attend these seminars...directly (many of whom are senior teachers in the art).
The reason you and Tony don't address them, is that there is no credible way for either of you to intelligently dismiss their expertise, judgment and involvement, so instead you wisely ignore any direct attacks on such a wide range of people.
You are in fact calling all of them....fools.
This will be it for you and me. I'll not speak with you again.

Dan
Dan. That's fine by me either way.

I do address whomever by the way.

Secondly I do not call you a con man or allude that you are.

I will say that con men do hide things and create a mystery by doing so and justify why. So as I said when you do such things it raises lot's of suspicions but apparently you dismiss this fact.

Thirdly there is a major difference between you and a con man. A con man doesn't give a good product whereas by all accounts you do.

Those who have attended be it yours or anyone else's and have given good reports I have acknowledged as such so don't put me in that category either thank you very much.

It's the continuous mantra I find amusing, unnecessary and misplaced.

Do you actually realize what it is about your presentation of ip annoys some as well as it's presentation by many others? Do you?

I doubt very much that you do.

Regards.G.
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Old 06-14-2011, 06:09 AM   #60
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Graham
Like Tony, you are either alluding to or outright saying that I am a con man and that people are being conned. You have no grounds for stating these things and have made no intelligent argument.
Who are you two, to make any statement at all? If you don't want to attend, then don't. You have no grounds to call the judgment of those who do into doubt, nor my own efforts that are being received so well.

This forum and its some of it's members apparently approve of such baseless accusations, I do not.

* What I teach at seminars is described in the brochure.
* I have never read an Aikido seminar brochure that was as detailed as mine.
* The many write ups have explained it further, after the fact.
* Of 782 attendees I have had three people who were not satisfied.
* Most people have stated it was too much information, not less.
* I have an extremely high return rate

It has not escaped my attention, that you do not address the people who attend these seminars...directly (many of whom are senior teachers in the art).
The reason you and Tony don't address them, is that there is no credible way for either of you to intelligently dismiss their expertise, judgment and involvement, so instead you wisely ignore any direct attacks on such a wide range of people.
You are in fact calling all of them....fools.
This will be it for you and me. I'll not speak with you again.

Dan
Dan
I want to know who your teachers were or are? Where and how you came about your theories and see some of your goods. Some real history would surely be welcome......Graham makes some good points yet you avoid them by by making the same or similar accusations you pin on me. Sorry to you if you find my directness insufferable, but that is just me love me or hate me (Marmite?) It's no wonder that people are suspicious, what's to say you did a few seminars with the Aunkai geezer, cottoned onto it pretty quick and then thought, this is a good screw and there are enough wannabes out there who will fall for it. Yeh it works so they are bound to fall for it, bouncers, so called Shihan and all the other titles that abound today, one of the reasons I have never chased titles, as to me and I suspect many others on here they don't really mean much at the end of the day.
People get my respect by being upfront.... You may be a nice guy Dan but you are to slick and subtle for my liking and all the "secrecy" bothers me as I know it bothers others. You also sound very overconfident about what you supposedly offer which is always a good marketing ploy as it gets the confidence of others who are not so sure about themselves, to the point that you say you can "take" me....
Maybe you can, I couldn't care less, been there done it big time, so nothing new there either, you can't win 'em all. As Joe said there is always someone better, so that kind of thing doesn't bother me as that is certainly boasting in my book....
As I said, I like getting to the bottom of things no matter what others say. If I sounded a bit offensive there was a reason behind that to, to see what your reaction would be, I was right and you have done well to show your true colours..... well done.... Any real budo man would have simply ignored it.......

Regards

Tony
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Old 06-14-2011, 06:25 AM   #61
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Nicholas Eschenbruch wrote: View Post
On a sightly humorous note, it would be great if Graham Christian, Tony Wagstaffe and Alberto Italiano had been invented by some IT whizzkid troll to keep the IS debate going on forever after it had already been quite, well, dead for some people, resolved for others :-)

No hard feelings please... just could not help myself.
Ha ha. That's quite witty actually. I'm drawn to the mystery but after much questioning my curiosity has been satisfied.

Regards.G.
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Old 06-14-2011, 06:32 AM   #62
graham christian
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Nicholas
If you read through, you will see their so called "positions" are very fluid. There is no real communication going on with these guys, they're drive by shooters. Other than addressing some of their rather bizarre and poorly thought through points, discussion with them is a waste of time.
Cheers
Dan
Oi! Bizarre is my word how dare you steal it! Ha, ha.

Nice to know I'm a drive by shooter though. Does that make you a chinese takeaway?
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Old 06-14-2011, 06:36 AM   #63
Chris Knight
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Ha ha. That's quite witty actually. I'm drawn to the mystery but after much questioning my curiosity has been satisfied.

Regards.G.
Ignorance is bliss, as they say
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Old 06-14-2011, 06:38 AM   #64
graham christian
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post
Ignorance is bliss, as they say
So is understanding.
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Old 06-14-2011, 06:42 AM   #65
Chris Knight
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
So is understanding.
Understanding what??
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Old 06-14-2011, 06:48 AM   #66
graham christian
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post
Understanding what??
Understanding anything is bliss my friend. He who says ignorance is bliss merely validates ignorance. Another limited saying.
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Old 06-14-2011, 06:52 AM   #67
Chris Knight
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Understanding anything is bliss my friend. He who says ignorance is bliss merely validates ignorance. Another limited saying.
I wasn't asking about anything, I was asking about the discussion in hand

Chris
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Old 06-14-2011, 07:00 AM   #68
graham christian
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post
I wasn't asking about anything, I was asking about the discussion in hand

Chris
Wow. I have lots of understandings now. Where would you like me to start? Plus why do you ask?
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Old 06-14-2011, 07:07 AM   #69
lbb
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Hey, guys? When you're exchanging a series of one-liners like that (or even multi-liners), doesn't that suggest to you that you ought to take it to private message? It's no longer a forum discussion at that point.
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Old 06-14-2011, 07:11 AM   #70
Chris Knight
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Wow. I have lots of understandings now. Where would you like me to start? Plus why do you ask?
For a fellow Brit your hard work Graham... I thought it was a simple enough question.

Anyway, in relation to Aikido, from my very limited view of an excellent art, I dont feel like the basics on their own will give us back the art of Ueshiba. Someone who could control energy from a single touch generating spiral forces through every essence of his body and absorbing energy on impact. Not just redirecting... The list goes on but this, I believe is the arguement of I/S guys?? Which is why I have enbarked on solo training to enhance my training, before I fall into any bad habits which are harder to untrain.

just my take
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Old 06-14-2011, 07:12 AM   #71
Chris Knight
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Hey, guys? When you're exchanging a series of one-liners like that (or even multi-liners), doesn't that suggest to you that you ought to take it to private message? It's no longer a forum discussion at that point.
sorry mary, back to topic
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Old 06-14-2011, 07:51 AM   #72
graham christian
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post
For a fellow Brit your hard work Graham... I thought it was a simple enough question.

Anyway, in relation to Aikido, from my very limited view of an excellent art, I dont feel like the basics on their own will give us back the art of Ueshiba. Someone who could control energy from a single touch generating spiral forces through every essence of his body and absorbing energy on impact. Not just redirecting... The list goes on but this, I believe is the arguement of I/S guys?? Which is why I have enbarked on solo training to enhance my training, before I fall into any bad habits which are harder to untrain.

just my take
Thank you. I like your view on Aikido and your view on Ueshiba. I also like your view on not just redirecting....

So I understand that and concur. The basics not giving you that I cannot comment on for I don't know what you call basics.

I understand only that the basics as given to you in place 'a' leads you to look elsewhere.

If due to such circumstances the ip guys give you what you need then obviously that's good is it not? I understand that.

Personally I am amused by people who think Aikido is the way of deflecting energy.

That's THE argument of the ip guys? Ha ha. Then why don't they say so? Hell, thats a basic I teach from day one. No secrecy, no promoting it as x, y or z.

Well, people I know know this. People in some Aikijutsu know this, people in hapkido and various arts know this.

Finally, bad habits being hard to untrain? I disagree. I have met many Aikidoka over the years who have come looking for that difference they appear to be missing. At first they feel they have wasted a lot of time but I tell them they have wasted nothing.

With a better understanding they soon correct anything they see in themselves as a bad habit. You will develope 'bad habits' in whatever form of training you do until you reach a very high standard. Then the chances are that you will still have some but much fewer. So don't fall for that old nonsense.

Regards.G.
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Old 06-14-2011, 08:07 AM   #73
Chris Knight
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Thank you. I like your view on Aikido and your view on Ueshiba. I also like your view on not just redirecting....

So I understand that and concur. The basics not giving you that I cannot comment on for I don't know what you call basics.

I understand only that the basics as given to you in place 'a' leads you to look elsewhere.

If due to such circumstances the ip guys give you what you need then obviously that's good is it not? I understand that.

Personally I am amused by people who think Aikido is the way of deflecting energy.

That's THE argument of the ip guys? Ha ha. Then why don't they say so? Hell, thats a basic I teach from day one. No secrecy, no promoting it as x, y or z.

Well, people I know know this. People in some Aikijutsu know this, people in hapkido and various arts know this.

Finally, bad habits being hard to untrain? I disagree. I have met many Aikidoka over the years who have come looking for that difference they appear to be missing. At first they feel they have wasted a lot of time but I tell them they have wasted nothing.

With a better understanding they soon correct anything they see in themselves as a bad habit. You will develope 'bad habits' in whatever form of training you do until you reach a very high standard. Then the chances are that you will still have some but much fewer. So don't fall for that old nonsense.

Regards.G.
Dont quote me on the IP guys Graham, that's just a guess..
Are you unmoveable in every direction, under any amount of pressure, in any posture?
Can you absorb a person's energy on touch until they literally are 'paralysed, and can be thrown whilst you keep constant body form?
When people grab you, are they thrown with no movement, using spiraling energy or just via leading??

All interesting questions.... and something I'll be training for 20+ years before I can start to comprehend. I don't think many people can say they've mastered Ueshiba's art though. As they say, you have to feel it to understand??

ps/.. i'm totally happy with my current aikido training as i do it for a hobby, but in practical application im looking outside the box to get an integrated martial art and if I have to look to the far east then so be it lol

Last edited by Chris Knight : 06-14-2011 at 08:11 AM. Reason: edit
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Old 06-14-2011, 08:17 AM   #74
graham christian
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post
Dont quote me on the IP guys Graham, that's just a guess..
Are you unmoveable in every direction, under any amount of pressure, in any posture?
Can you absorb a person's energy on touch until they literally are 'paralysed, and can be thrown whilst you keep constant body form?
When people grab you, are they thrown with no movement, using spiraling energy or just via leading??

All interesting questions.... and something I'll be training for 20+ years before I can start to comprehend. I don't think many people can say they've mastered Ueshiba's art though. As they say, you have to feel it to understand??
Yeah, and I've got a cape to prove it. Ha ha. Seriously though all those questions are interesting and are now on the topic of my understanding of such things and regarding them what I can or cannot do personally. This is where what Mary says is pertinent.

It's for a different thread or for private messaging.

Regards.G.
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Old 06-14-2011, 08:23 AM   #75
jester
 
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Re: Basics, basics, basics

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post
Are you unmovable in every direction
That's physically impossible unless you have 3 or more legs.

-

-It seems to be all about semantics!
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