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Old 06-08-2011, 01:39 PM   #51
DH
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote: View Post
I wasn't aware of the Ki wars!! But understandable! These aren't the droids you are looking for.

It seems that in Aikido there seems to be the Scientific or the Spiritual crowd. This seems more like a religious debate sometimes!!
Nope, not in person, not once, not ever.
Ten thousand words of debate end in person.
Hence, many will avoid getting together at all costs!
Dan
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Old 06-08-2011, 02:24 PM   #52
gregstec
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

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Tim Jester wrote: View Post
I
It seems that in Aikido there seems to be the Scientific or the Spiritual crowd. This seems more like a religious debate sometimes!!
Amen to that brother!
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Old 06-09-2011, 08:10 PM   #53
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Amen to that brother!
Steckel sensei,

Since you studied both, do you mind to share with us your oppinions about the similarities and differences of those two styles?

Thanks!

Ting
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Old 06-10-2011, 07:15 AM   #54
gregstec
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Ting Piao wrote: View Post
Steckel sensei,

Since you studied both, do you mind to share with us your oppinions about the similarities and differences of those two styles?

Thanks!

Ting
Hi Ting,

First, I am not a Sensei - I am just another guy doing aiki that is willing to share what I know with others of a like mind

Second, I am not sure what you mean between styles. Tohei's model is a style of Aikido that teaches ki development and technical waza. What Dan is teaching is not a style nor is there any waza taught. All he is doing is teaching body conditioning for the development of internal strength via solo exercises and paired drills. The use of ki/qi/intent is important for the success of the exercises, but Dan does not really teach its development - he will give pointers on how to do it, but it is not his main focus.

However, this is where Tohei's ki development can compliment what Dan is doing. The application of Tohei's four principles of mind and body coordination is an excellent start for learning internal skills - internal strength just can not happen without a coordinated mind and body. However, it is just the crucial first step in the development of internal skills - Tohei never took his model to the next step, but Dan has.

I hope I answered your question to some degree.

Greg
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Old 06-10-2011, 09:26 AM   #55
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Nice clip supporting the view that Shioda trained with Horikawa

Greg
Good use of stomach muscle isometrics there....
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Old 06-10-2011, 09:28 AM   #56
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Hi Ting,

First, I am not a Sensei - I am just another guy doing aiki that is willing to share what I know with others of a like mind

Second, I am not sure what you mean between styles. Tohei's model is a style of Aikido that teaches ki development and technical waza. What Dan is teaching is not a style nor is there any waza taught. All he is doing is teaching body conditioning for the development of internal strength via solo exercises and paired drills. The use of ki/qi/intent is important for the success of the exercises, but Dan does not really teach its development - he will give pointers on how to do it, but it is not his main focus.

However, this is where Tohei's ki development can compliment what Dan is doing. The application of Tohei's four principles of mind and body coordination is an excellent start for learning internal skills - internal strength just can not happen without a coordinated mind and body. However, it is just the crucial first step in the development of internal skills - Tohei never took his model to the next step, but Dan has.

I hope I answered your question to some degree.

Greg
So Dan is better than Tohei is he? I 'd love to see that on video....
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Old 06-10-2011, 09:39 AM   #57
DH
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
So Dan is better than Tohei is he? I 'd love to see that on video....
I'd rather have shown you in person!
But it's not singular, Tony. Forget me, there are many others dude! There is much more to the use of IP/aiki past what Tohei was doing. He was good but he got to a point and did not explore further. Don't make your world so small. I'm a small fish in big pond...I'm just glad to be in the water.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 06-10-2011 at 09:43 AM.
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Old 06-10-2011, 10:35 AM   #58
gregstec
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
So Dan is better than Tohei is he? I 'd love to see that on video....
Never said that - just said he is doing something that Tohei was not - that is all.

Greg
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Old 06-10-2011, 11:42 AM   #59
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Graham, "Ki" as you call it is a subtle use of strength used economically and trained body mechanics, nothing more..... When will people get that....? As for IS/IP the same thing in another guise or hype as Dan likes to harp on about and we all know that to, so no surprise there either, but at least I speak my mind.....
The word ki was never spoken of in all the years I practised aikido except by the laziest of people hoping to find it without effort, that is the problem today....

What you do is an exercise form which is great for you, but it would not work in a real scenario where someone is not going to comply with you, and you know it.....!!

If people would own up and call it an exercise system derived from self defence then I would prefer it, but to call it self defence is an absolute joke and if we were all completely honest.....? Well I am and so are a few others on here, but the rest are completely in cuckoo land and in with the fairies, but that's life, full of Walter Mitties and few able to cope with reality.... but who am I ? Just a nobody according to many on here, ha ha!! However I do like your audacity and the way people fawn over your posts, it's quite amusing, keep it up!!
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Old 06-10-2011, 11:46 AM   #60
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I'd rather have shown you in person!
But it's not singular, Tony. Forget me, there are many others dude! There is much more to the use of IP/aiki past what Tohei was doing. He was good but he got to a point and did not explore further. Don't make your world so small. I'm a small fish in big pond...I'm just glad to be in the water.
Dan
Same here, I just like to swim before I drown..... my world is vast and I see more than you think ......
so put it up on video.....

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 06-10-2011 at 11:50 AM.
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Old 06-10-2011, 11:48 AM   #61
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Never said that - just said he is doing something that Tohei was not - that is all.

Greg
Better rephrase it then...?
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Old 06-10-2011, 11:54 AM   #62
graham christian
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Graham, "Ki" as you call it is a subtle use of strength used economically and trained body mechanics, nothing more..... When will people get that....? As for IS/IP the same thing in another guise or hype as Dan likes to harp on about and we all know that to, so no surprise there either, but at least I speak my mind.....
The word ki was never spoken of in all the years I practised aikido except by the laziest of people hoping to find it without effort, that is the problem today....

What you do is an exercise form which is great for you, but it would not work in a real scenario where someone is not going to comply with you, and you know it.....!!

If people would own up and call it an exercise system derived from self defence then I would prefer it, but to call it self defence is an absolute joke and if we were all completely honest.....? Well I am and so are a few others on here, but the rest are completely in cuckoo land and in with the fairies, but that's life, full of Walter Mitties and few able to cope with reality.... but who am I ? Just a nobody according to many on here, ha ha!! However I do like your audacity and the way people fawn over your posts, it's quite amusing, keep it up!!
Hi Tony San. (ha ha) Good to see you back from your trip.

Good to know you have never even heard Ki mentioned and yet know all about it.

However, what I really want to know is how was your holiday? Good I hope. Believe it or not I think many would love to hear how it was over there. (I believe you went to Japan otherwise I'm just making a fool of myself once again)

New thread?

Regards.G.
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Old 06-10-2011, 12:34 PM   #63
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Hi Tony San. (ha ha) Good to see you back from your trip.

Good to know you have never even heard Ki mentioned and yet know all about it.

However, what I really want to know is how was your holiday? Good I hope. Believe it or not I think many would love to hear how it was over there. (I believe you went to Japan otherwise I'm just making a fool of myself once again)

New thread?

Regards.G.
Only from guys like yourself Graham , otherwise it was never mentioned.
Nippon was great and so are the people, generous to a fault and I couldn't have wished for a better holiday.....
Managed to get some training in, Shodokan of course.... Attended the 49th conveyor belt aikido demo where I saw a few well known faces and had my photo taken with a couple, the funny part is me being a heretic which is even more hilarious....!!
But it was worth it!! You wouldn't believe where I was sat!!!!!
Managed to do a few repairs where it was needed for friends. Had a great time with them......Experienced a few tremors while on the wonderful rear end cleaning loos as that is quite an experience if the water is too hot or cold, whoopeee!! Matelots would love it, shampoo and rinse.....!! And a dryer all in one, Did the whole Japanese bit, Sushi, miso soup (don't like it) but everything else was allright and very delicious, lots of beer and sake and bottomless legs which they thought I had!!. Sumo tournament, the hot springs, and so forth, not sure about the boys there though?
Did a sardine train one night on the Yamanote line, I was lucky that I was surrounded by women and had my hands up on the stirrups!! No flies on this kid!!
The country is beautiful, but many are still suffering while the politicians dither on the east coast, but much is being done by those in the know.... They are a tough lot in the country, but that is the contrast between city folk and country bumpkins like myself....
Tokyo cabbies think us British cabbies have very high standards, but so do they, a tad more expensive but clean and honest in the main....
I could go on but it would get boring. I have dubbed Shibuya "titty" land on account of one of it's shops in the area it's the one with all the escalators but I forget the name of the building. Roppongi reminded me of Singapore but more up market as to what it was when I was there in 1970.... Went to a drag show there where they really did have ki ti's in the cast of dancers who were very good..... One of my friends didn't realise they were men.... titter....
Its a good experience and I will go again, Nippon that is.....
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Old 06-10-2011, 01:06 PM   #64
graham christian
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Only from guys like yourself Graham , otherwise it was never mentioned.
Nippon was great and so are the people, generous to a fault and I couldn't have wished for a better holiday.....
Managed to get some training in, Shodokan of course.... Attended the 49th conveyor belt aikido demo where I saw a few well known faces and had my photo taken with a couple, the funny part is me being a heretic which is even more hilarious....!!
But it was worth it!! You wouldn't believe where I was sat!!!!!
Managed to do a few repairs where it was needed for friends. Had a great time with them......Experienced a few tremors while on the wonderful rear end cleaning loos as that is quite an experience if the water is too hot or cold, whoopeee!! Matelots would love it, shampoo and rinse.....!! And a dryer all in one, Did the whole Japanese bit, Sushi, miso soup (don't like it) but everything else was allright and very delicious, lots of beer and sake and bottomless legs which they thought I had!!. Sumo tournament, the hot springs, and so forth, not sure about the boys there though?
Did a sardine train one night on the Yamanote line, I was lucky that I was surrounded by women and had my hands up on the stirrups!! No flies on this kid!!
The country is beautiful, but many are still suffering while the politicians dither on the east coast, but much is being done by those in the know.... They are a tough lot in the country, but that is the contrast between city folk and country bumpkins like myself....
Tokyo cabbies think us British cabbies have very high standards, but so do they, a tad more expensive but clean and honest in the main....
I could go on but it would get boring. I have dubbed Shibuya "titty" land on account of one of it's shops in the area it's the one with all the escalators but I forget the name of the building. Roppongi reminded me of Singapore but more up market as to what it was when I was there in 1970.... Went to a drag show there where they really did have ki ti's in the cast of dancers who were very good..... One of my friends didn't realise they were men.... titter....
Its a good experience and I will go again, Nippon that is.....
Brilliant. Sounds great. Thanks for that. Did you say you did some training? You mean by Japanese??? I'm glad you exploded that myth then because on reading some folks here I was beginning to think they don't teach Geijin. Mmm, or maybe they didn't teach you their secret techniques.

Regards.G.
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Old 06-10-2011, 01:10 PM   #65
gregstec
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

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Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Better rephrase it then...?
No need to rephrase - you misunderstood my point and I clarified it for you - done, not an issue...
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Old 06-10-2011, 04:05 PM   #66
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Brilliant. Sounds great. Thanks for that. Did you say you did some training? You mean by Japanese??? I'm glad you exploded that myth then because on reading some folks here I was beginning to think they don't teach Geijin. Mmm, or maybe they didn't teach you their secret techniques.

Regards.G.
Don't be daft Graham, there is nothing secret as its "hidden in plain sight". If there were "secrets" they would win everything outright, which they don't..... "Ki", as you call it, the Asians have no monopoly on it, race has nothing to do with it, only hard work, body conditioning and knowing which way to move......Path of least resistance.....? Every sparky knows that one....
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Old 06-10-2011, 04:06 PM   #67
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Never said that - just said he is doing something that Tohei was not - that is all.

Greg
Still want to see it.....
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Old 06-10-2011, 04:14 PM   #68
Chris Li
 
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Still want to see it.....
Then go see him - he was in England recently, and he'll be back there or on the continent.

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-10-2011, 08:50 PM   #69
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Then go see him - he was in England recently, and he'll be back there or on the continent.

Best,

Chris
Can't afford what he's asking to pay!! I would make that a yes if I see it first on video, and please don't tell me how I have just afforded to go to Tokyo, that wouldn't have been possible if it wasn't for the kindness of friends I have there, believe it.....
Seeing is believing as well as feeeling, don't you think?
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Old 06-10-2011, 10:13 PM   #70
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Managed to get some training in, Shodokan of course.... Attended the 49th conveyor belt aikido demo where I saw a few well known faces and had my photo taken with a couple, the funny part is me being a heretic which is even more hilarious....!!
But it was worth it!! You wouldn't believe where I was sat!!!!
Oh, I would.
I was there and saw someone looking suspiciously like you do in your photograph. Because you have been away from Aikiweb for a while, I did not make the connection at the time. Did they give you a bento?

Best wishes,

PAG

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 06-10-2011 at 10:19 PM.

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Old 06-11-2011, 03:11 AM   #71
Mark Freeman
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Can't afford what he's asking to pay!! I would make that a yes if I see it first on video, and please don't tell me how I have just afforded to go to Tokyo, that wouldn't have been possible if it wasn't for the kindness of friends I have there, believe it.....
Seeing is believing as well as feeeling, don't you think?
Hi Tony,

shame you couldn't, as the whole weekend was a great experience, enjoyed by all who attended. Dan is a good teacher, who has what he says he has. He teaches with a great deal of humour, patience, enthusiasm and generosity.

Personally I came away feeling that it was time and money well spent. Apart from having the pleasure of meeting and practicing with good people from different styles of aikido and chinese martial arts, I learnt much and am now in the process of trying to integrate this into my own understanding of aikido and how I practice and teach.

I didn't go to see Dan to try and fix anything about my own aikido, I am happy with where I am with that, and I know that my teacher (who Sensei Ellis knows very well, and will confirm) is about as good as they get.

Last week an old shodan student of mine was in the area and came to visit for a session. The feedback she gave to the friend she was staying with (another shodan student of mine) was that she really enjoyed the lesson and that my teaching was somehow 'on another level'. I still teach exactly the same curriculum, however, I know that what I have gained from meeting both Dan Harden and Mike Sigman (neither of whom I was aware of before I came onto aikiweb), has both informed and inspired me to better pass on what I know to my students.

I must admit that I was sceptical of both men at first, but decided the only way to know the truth is to lay hands on both, which is what I set out to do. I'm glad I did, as I am wiser for it.

Glad you had a good time in Japan, the forum has been quite quiet in your absence

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 06-11-2011, 11:07 AM   #72
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Oh, I would.
I was there and saw someone looking suspiciously like you do in your photograph. Because you have been away from Aikiweb for a while, I did not make the connection at the time. Did they give you a bento?

Best wishes,

PAG
Must have been my twin brother Peter....
No I didn't get a bento , I wasn't able to stay that long as we were with Yamaguchi Shihan of the Goju Karate Kai as his guests.... The young lady who was with us is a long time student of his, who happened to study Shodokan/Tomiki aikido with us while in the UK for 5 years....
I did look over to you but you didn't seem to recognise me, so I left it at that...... Never mind.... maybe next year if you are lucky....
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Old 06-11-2011, 07:05 PM   #73
graham christian
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Don't be daft Graham, there is nothing secret as its "hidden in plain sight". If there were "secrets" they would win everything outright, which they don't..... "Ki", as you call it, the Asians have no monopoly on it, race has nothing to do with it, only hard work, body conditioning and knowing which way to move......Path of least resistance.....? Every sparky knows that one....
Ahh, Grasshopper!

I never thought I would hear you talk about the path of non-resistance. Very good.

Indeed electricity and all energies follow the paths of non-resistance and that includes spiritual energy too. They follow if only we would allow them to.

Resistance blocks these paths wouldn't you say?

Regards.G.
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Old 06-12-2011, 06:21 AM   #74
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Ahh, Grasshopper!

I never thought I would hear you talk about the path of non-resistance. Very good.

Indeed electricity and all energies follow the paths of non-resistance and that includes spiritual energy too. They follow if only we would allow them to.

Resistance blocks these paths wouldn't you say?

Regards.G.
Graham, the whole point of "aikido" (or even jutsu?) is to use the least point of resistance.... That can only be achieved by your partners (in your discipline) resisting you while you find the least point of resistance..... That includes atemi don't you think? Hence the reason we use the unsoku method in T/S aikido. I found this quite easy to take to after my boxing training in the R.N. All fighting or martial arts have fundamental stances and movement no matter what part of the globe it comes from. Aikido as a grappling art is no different to judo in my opinion...
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Old 06-12-2011, 06:43 AM   #75
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
Hi Tony,

shame you couldn't, as the whole weekend was a great experience, enjoyed by all who attended. Dan is a good teacher, who has what he says he has. He teaches with a great deal of humour, patience, enthusiasm and generosity.

Personally I came away feeling that it was time and money well spent. Apart from having the pleasure of meeting and practicing with good people from different styles of aikido and chinese martial arts, I learnt much and am now in the process of trying to integrate this into my own understanding of aikido and how I practice and teach.

I didn't go to see Dan to try and fix anything about my own aikido, I am happy with where I am with that, and I know that my teacher (who Sensei Ellis knows very well, and will confirm) is about as good as they get.

Last week an old shodan student of mine was in the area and came to visit for a session. The feedback she gave to the friend she was staying with (another shodan student of mine) was that she really enjoyed the lesson and that my teaching was somehow 'on another level'. I still teach exactly the same curriculum, however, I know that what I have gained from meeting both Dan Harden and Mike Sigman (neither of whom I was aware of before I came onto aikiweb), has both informed and inspired me to better pass on what I know to my students.

I must admit that I was sceptical of both men at first, but decided the only way to know the truth is to lay hands on both, which is what I set out to do. I'm glad I did, as I am wiser for it.

Glad you had a good time in Japan, the forum has been quite quiet in your absence

regards,

Mark
That as maybe, but I wouldn't have been here anyways, I was already in Nippon. We have an exercise in T/S called tandoku undo where we use the connection, the point of the exercise to move your partners whilst they resist, not often practised the way I have learnt to apply it...
But there you go..... Most do the exercise solo, but it is incorporated in kata's such as the dai yon of T/S aiki, so it is learnt either way.....
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