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Old 06-06-2011, 06:00 PM   #26
gregstec
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Yes...but I won't show you how to do it.
I won't tell you how to do it.
Instead, I will open a discussion
And ask...you....how to do it.
"You are the experts after all."
And then magically I will make you think you are learning something meaningful, from a discussion about nothing.
me
You getting too esoteric for me - you drinking Sake again

Greg
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Old 06-06-2011, 07:25 PM   #27
Marc Abrams
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Yes...but I won't show you how to do it.
I won't tell you how to do it.
Instead, I will open a discussion
And ask...you....how to do it.
"You are the experts after all."
And then magically I will make you think you are learning something meaningful, from a discussion about nothing.
me
I would try to engage in a discussion about that, but I remember hearing about a family lore about a relative in England who rode with King Arthur. They talked about a rabbit with big gnarly teeth and claws. A killer rabbit I am told......

Me 2
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Old 06-06-2011, 09:28 PM   #28
DH
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote: View Post
All of those guys are gripping from a very very weak position. It proves that Kuzushi before applying a technique is very important!

I like the way he slides away from his uke right at the start.

-
The weak gripping helps what he is doing with his arms, but it would work anyway. Even if the grips were strong, no matter. What actually is going on is blatantly obvious if a) your body is trained b) you understand aiki. The rest is a piece of cake.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 06-06-2011, 09:54 PM   #29
DH
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Quote:
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Yes...but I won't show you how to do it.
I won't tell you how to do it.
Instead, I will open a discussion
And ask...you....how to do it.
"You are the experts after all."
And then magically, I will make you think you are learning something meaningful, from (edit) discussions that go no where.
me
You're getting too esoteric for me - you drinking Sake again

Greg
Seriously...from you of all people?
I got surprising emails from a group of folk who cracked up, as they experience it regularly.
Think dude, think.
me
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Old 06-07-2011, 05:51 AM   #30
gregstec
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Seriously...from you of all people?
I got surprising emails from a group of folk who cracked up, as they experience it regularly.
Think dude, think.
me
GOT IT

it was me drinking the Sake last night - no, make that cheap Gin; numbs the brain

Greg
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Old 06-07-2011, 08:14 AM   #31
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
The weak gripping helps what he is doing with his arms, but it would work anyway. Even if the grips were strong, no matter. What actually is going on is blatantly obvious if a) your body is trained b) you understand aiki. The rest is a piece of cake.
Cheers
Dan
Have to disagree to some extent. If uke was allowed to change his grip in accordance to Tori's movement (this would be a stronger position for Uke because it evolves like in real life), then Uke wouldn't be able to do that technique at all. A strong position will constantly evolve. That's the basics of Aikido.

All these type of demos fall under the false pretense that Uke is going to be a static loaf. They do teach a basic principal but like you said it's blatantly obvious and totally one sided.

-

-It seems to be all about semantics!
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Old 06-07-2011, 08:37 AM   #32
Marc Abrams
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote: View Post
Have to disagree to some extent. If uke was allowed to change his grip in accordance to Tori's movement (this would be a stronger position for Uke because it evolves like in real life), then Uke wouldn't be able to do that technique at all. A strong position will constantly evolve. That's the basics of Aikido.

All these type of demos fall under the false pretense that Uke is going to be a static loaf. They do teach a basic principal but like you said it's blatantly obvious and totally one sided.

-
Tim:

I would respectfully disagree with your position. The level that Dan is talking about is one in which your time frame is slower than the person with aiki/internal skills. Your body simply cannot process the information overload quick enough to be able to offer any kind of effective response. At that level, by the time you have made contact, you are already behind the eight ball, which is behind the wrecking ball that is about to hit you while you just notice the eight ball. You have to experience this first hand in order to truly grasp what I am talking about. I know personally! I have always been congenitally stupid enough to insist that I look at the eight ball while the wrecking ball crushes me far more frequently than I should have, before I had to acknowledge the inadequacy in my training and abilities so that I could be open to learn what Dan is talking about. I genuinely hope that one day, my congenital stupidity will wear off enough to actually learn this stuff well enough to be able to do it in a real-time manner.

Regards,

marc abrams
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Old 06-07-2011, 09:43 AM   #33
DH
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote: View Post
Have to disagree to some extent. If uke was allowed to change his grip in accordance to Tori's movement (this would be a stronger position for Uke because it evolves like in real life), then Uke wouldn't be able to do that technique at all. A strong position will constantly evolve. That's the basics of Aikido.

All these type of demos fall under the false pretense that Uke is going to be a static loaf. They do teach a basic principal but like you said it's blatantly obvious and totally one sided.

-
Demos are demos
But since you decided to talk about real time applicability.....I am not changing one single comment or opinion. What I do in solo training, I do in kata, I do in drills, I do in sparring, I do in fighting. The only reason it looks different is due to speed, and the type of attacks someone brings. IP/aiki is not only fluid, it is hyper fluid and produces power and aiki non-stop in motion, and what SHioda is demonstrating can fit the bill if you know what you're doing.
To be fair, I have yet to see, feel, or meet an Aikido or Daito ryu person of any rank who both understands and can do, what I just said to you to the level I am talking about. I'm not saying they don't exist, I just have never seen it.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 06-07-2011, 09:43 AM   #34
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Tim:

The level that Dan is talking about is one in which your time frame is slower than the person with aiki/internal skills. Your body simply cannot process the information overload quick enough to be able to offer any kind of effective response.
Maybe, but unless we are all in the room together and show what each other knows, we will never fully agree or know what the other is describing. Proof is in the pudding as they say!

I don't see myself ever grabbing anyone like that so that point is moot. The bottom line is that an automatic reflex is the fastest thing you can do. Fortunately for me our randori system teaches that very effectively. You should always think that nothing ever works. That way you adapt to the situation.

I also don't know exactly what Dan is teaching and have never seen any videos or demos from him but the internal arts are nothing new. I use it in my daily life.

For example, I used to compete throwing knives and can easily throw a 1 pound knife over 90 feet. It's all physics and I use my entire body like a whip. I see others that can't throw more than 40 feet max. They have no connection with their body, mind, breathing etc. and use mostly arm strength and power.

-

-It seems to be all about semantics!
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Old 06-07-2011, 04:23 PM   #35
graham christian
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote: View Post
Maybe, but unless we are all in the room together and show what each other knows, we will never fully agree or know what the other is describing. Proof is in the pudding as they say!

I don't see myself ever grabbing anyone like that so that point is moot. The bottom line is that an automatic reflex is the fastest thing you can do. Fortunately for me our randori system teaches that very effectively. You should always think that nothing ever works. That way you adapt to the situation.

I also don't know exactly what Dan is teaching and have never seen any videos or demos from him but the internal arts are nothing new. I use it in my daily life.

For example, I used to compete throwing knives and can easily throw a 1 pound knife over 90 feet. It's all physics and I use my entire body like a whip. I see others that can't throw more than 40 feet max. They have no connection with their body, mind, breathing etc. and use mostly arm strength and power.

-
Sounds good to me.

G.
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Old 06-07-2011, 04:30 PM   #36
graham christian
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

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David Yap wrote: View Post
Borrowing Graham's thread on Strength vs Ki; from another aikido's great - Gozo Shioda sensei:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DiNQgAbH0Y&NR=1

Cheers

David Y
Hi David. Yes Godo Shioda was an Aikido great. However there is not much resemblance to the art practiced by Koichi Tohei.

I'm not saying you see it as the same but thought I'd mention it as others seem to understand what he was doing and would be mistaken if they think that is Ki Aikido as done by Tohei.

Regards.G.
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Old 06-07-2011, 08:19 PM   #37
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Hi David. Yes Godo Shioda was an Aikido great. However there is not much resemblance to the art practiced by Koichi Tohei.

I'm not saying you see it as the same but thought I'd mention it as others seem to understand what he was doing and would be mistaken if they think that is Ki Aikido as done by Tohei.

Regards.G.
scratching my head (ya, head lice). is Shioda's Ki different from Tohei's Ki? seemed like that is what you implied. maybe i read that wrong, perhap? or are you saying that the outward forms are different?
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Old 06-08-2011, 07:40 AM   #38
gregstec
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
To be fair, I have yet to see, feel, or meet an Aikido or Daito ryu person of any rank who both understands and can do, what I just said to you to the level I am talking about. I'm not saying they don't exist, I just have never seen it.
Cheers
Dan
I was at an Okamoto sensei seminar where I saw him do the same drill in Shioda's video. This was not a demo during the seminar but an impromptu thing during lunch. Four of us were sitting on a bench and a fifth person was standing in front of Okamoto. He had the two people on either side of him ( I was sitting next to one of those guys) grab his arms like in the video and then had the guy standing grab his gi. The only difference from the video was that he locked up each as they touched him and he did not wait until all three grabbed him, also his movement was much smaller than Shioda's.

Now I can not attest to the level of Okamoto's skill from my limited exposure to him (I am sure it is not low), but maybe those three fellows that grabbed him can. The two guys that grabbed his arms you know very well, their initials are HP and JD - maybe you can ask them the next time you see them

Greg
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Old 06-08-2011, 09:48 AM   #39
graham christian
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
scratching my head (ya, head lice). is Shioda's Ki different from Tohei's Ki? seemed like that is what you implied. maybe i read that wrong, perhap? or are you saying that the outward forms are different?
Hi Phi.
Yes to both in short. To me it is the difference that makes all the difference and so what looks similar is in fact equated as the same thing.

Hence as I started Aikido based on Toheis principles from I might add a very stern teacher (zen style) I came across many people who could do things from other arts based on 'Ki' or 'chi' and had to go back training wondering what the difference was and indeed why it could be so different if it's meant to be Ki for example.

Thus I consider now I am quite good at recognising the differences.

That's all really.

Regards.G.
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Old 06-08-2011, 10:10 AM   #40
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Thus I consider now I am quite good at recognising the differences.
That's all really.
Regards.G.
Differences in Ki? Really?
What are they?
Dan
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Old 06-08-2011, 10:38 AM   #41
graham christian
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Differences in Ki? Really?
What are they?
Dan
Now that would mean I have to write a book Dan. Before we get into any play on words however let me say you could look at it as different aspects of Ki.

However, I prefer different types of Ki.

Remember also we have different frames of reference as you wisely spotted.

Now, purely to show one difference which many people doing Aikido are unaware of and some may even disbelieve is Kiatsu. Healing Ki or you could say using Ki to induce the Ki of another to heal.

It's very soft and yet powerful, done with the tips of the fingers generally without pressure and so cannot be equated with shiatsu or acupressure for example or even what I see called by many to be Reiki.

Add to that your approach is from a physical combative approach and my approach is from a purely spiritual non.competitive way.

Thus from a spiritual point of view there are many, many differences.

Regards.G.
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Old 06-08-2011, 10:52 AM   #42
gregstec
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Now that would mean I have to write a book Dan. Before we get into any play on words however let me say you could look at it as different aspects of Ki.

However, I prefer different types of Ki.

Remember also we have different frames of reference as you wisely spotted.

Now, purely to show one difference which many people doing Aikido are unaware of and some may even disbelieve is Kiatsu. Healing Ki or you could say using Ki to induce the Ki of another to heal.

It's very soft and yet powerful, done with the tips of the fingers generally without pressure and so cannot be equated with shiatsu or acupressure for example or even what I see called by many to be Reiki.

Add to that your approach is from a physical combative approach and my approach is from a purely spiritual non.competitive way.

Thus from a spiritual point of view there are many, many differences.

Regards.G.
Ki is Ki - there are no different types of ki. However, there are many applications of ki where kiatsu is one application and ki in a martial technique is another.

I am familiar with kiatsu as taught by Koretoshi Maruyama and I am also familiar with the application of ki in Dan's exercises - same ki in both, just different uses.

Greg
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Old 06-08-2011, 11:01 AM   #43
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Ki is Ki - there are no different types of ki. However, there are many applications of ki where kiatsu is one application and ki in a martial technique is another.

I am familiar with kiatsu as taught by Koretoshi Maruyama and I am also familiar with the application of ki in Dan's exercises - same ki in both, just different uses.

Greg
Greg. This isn't a competition. I am merely answering a question.

As I said I am not interested in plays on words either. Usages. Yes that's yet another aspect of Ki developement. But for me saying there is only one Ki is like saying there is only one type of wood, there is only one type of water, there is only one type of light.

From one angle it is true yet on further inspection there are many differences.

That's all. G.
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Old 06-08-2011, 11:53 AM   #44
gregstec
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Greg. This isn't a competition. I am merely answering a question.

As I said I am not interested in plays on words either. Usages. Yes that's yet another aspect of Ki developement. But for me saying there is only one Ki is like saying there is only one type of wood, there is only one type of water, there is only one type of light.

From one angle it is true yet on further inspection there are many differences.

That's all. G.
I don't have a clue where you got the idea that my post was intended to enter in a competition. I was simply stating my view on Ki.

You have stated that your Aikido follows Tohei's model. I too have studied Tohei's model under Koretoshi Maruyama when he was Tohei's first chief instructor of the Ki Society back in the middle 70s so I can relate to your perspectives somewhat. I am also a student of Dan's so I know where he is coming form on ki as well.

As a student of Tohei's model, you should know that ki is in all things and that it is what makes the universe animated. There is only one ki with many different uses dependent on how it is controlled internally and external by the body - yes, I said external to the body. Ki can be projected from the body and used to extend your awareness - not in a ki fireball type of way, but in a very subtle way. Until one realizes and learns how to do this, you will never get your skill to a higher level.

Greg
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Old 06-08-2011, 12:09 PM   #45
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
I don't have a clue where you got the idea that my post was intended to enter in a competition. I was simply stating my view on Ki.

You have stated that your Aikido follows Tohei's model. I too have studied Tohei's model under Koretoshi Maruyama when he was Tohei's first chief instructor of the Ki Society back in the middle 70s so I can relate to your perspectives somewhat. I am also a student of Dan's so I know where he is coming form on ki as well.

As a student of Tohei's model, you should know that ki is in all things and that it is what makes the universe animated. There is only one ki with many different uses dependent on how it is controlled internally and external by the body - yes, I said external to the body. Ki can be projected from the body and used to extend your awareness - not in a ki fireball type of way, but in a very subtle way. Until one realizes and learns how to do this, you will never get your skill to a higher level.

Greg
Greg. The competition aspect came from you mentioning Dan. O.K. maybe it was purely comparitive. My apologies.

Of course Ki is universal and external to the body as well as in it. There's no disagreement there. Ki in Toheis model as you put it is indeed extended out and taken into the body but I wouldn't say 'from the body' I would say from one point which is put at a location of center.( maybe my way of saying the same thing)

I too laugh at such concepts of balls of Ki. What's new?

G.
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Old 06-08-2011, 12:29 PM   #46
gregstec
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Greg. The competition aspect came from you mentioning Dan. O.K. maybe it was purely comparitive. My apologies.

Of course Ki is universal and external to the body as well as in it. There's no disagreement there. Ki in Toheis model as you put it is indeed extended out and taken into the body but I wouldn't say 'from the body' I would say from one point which is put at a location of center.( maybe my way of saying the same thing)

I too laugh at such concepts of balls of Ki. What's new?

G.
Yes, from center where all energies come through, around, into, and controlled by - where the mind also resides as well and NOT in the head

Greg
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Old 06-08-2011, 12:31 PM   #47
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
you should know that ki is in all things and that it is what makes the universe animated.

Greg
This sounds a lot like Star Wars!

Does everyone agree on what Ki is? I wouldn't think so. Translating the idea of Ki to a westerner seems difficult. I don't think anyone here has a monopoly on the word so it will mean different things to different people.

Maybe everyone can state what they think Ki is.

I don't think there is any Ki inherent in a rock but when i throw it I transfer my Ki (energy) to it and that's what makes it fly so far.

K=B+P

Ki = Biomechanics plus Physics.

-

-It seems to be all about semantics!
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Old 06-08-2011, 12:34 PM   #48
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Yes, from center where all energies come through, around, into, and controlled by - where the mind also resides as well and NOT in the head

Greg
Indeed. G.
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Old 06-08-2011, 12:46 PM   #49
gregstec
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

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Tim Jester wrote: View Post
This sounds a lot like Star Wars!

Does everyone agree on what Ki is? I wouldn't think so. Translating the idea of Ki to a westerner seems difficult. I don't think anyone here has a monopoly on the word so it will mean different things to different people.

Maybe everyone can state what they think Ki is.

I don't think there is any Ki inherent in a rock but when i throw it I transfer my Ki (energy) to it and that's what makes it fly so far.

K=B+P

Ki = Biomechanics plus Physics.

-
It is like Star Wars - qi/ki is where Lucas got the idea for the Force

The rest of your post will start the ki wars up all over again - best not to go there

Let's just say it is OK to agree to disagree on ki until either party learns more or becomes enlightened in some other way on the subject.

Best
Greg
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Old 06-08-2011, 12:58 PM   #50
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Re: Strength vs Ki.

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
The rest of your post will start the ki wars up all over again - best not to go there

Best
Greg
I wasn't aware of the Ki wars!! But understandable! These aren't the droids you are looking for.

It seems that in Aikido there seems to be the Scientific or the Spiritual crowd. This seems more like a religious debate sometimes!!

-It seems to be all about semantics!
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