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Old 05-30-2011, 05:14 PM   #176
abraxis
 
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Hi Rudy,
The lad is content...as much as can be said of a 2-year old, at any rate. I agree that testing is a crucial componant to any system of teaching. It's somewhat at the heart of the learning process. I don't play Go, but I do play chess so there are similarities between the two. Chess is usually broken into 3 portions: opening, middle game, and end game. The first and last portions are the most well-defined because the circumstances are the simplest. They're usually the first things a coach will cover, along with the most common axioms (e.g. knight on the rim, chances are dim). My chess coach in high school would test us by having us prove our understanding of end game mechanics: force mate using king and rook; advance pawn to queen along various columns (some are forceable draws, some aren't); etc. With the exception of end-game mechanics, the other two portions of play are more open to interpretation. Some people have a knack for turning a bad opening into something good because most people only study the "good" openings. Every now and then old lines will get revived because someone discovered something new...and you never know how it will work, until you test it on some level. I played the 3rd ranked player in the state (scholastic level of play) and should have won because I knew a rare counter to his favorite defense. I got over-excited and nervous and missed a rook early in the game. Another aspect of play I clearly needed to test.
I think a difficult aspect of testing has to do with the fact that we all have to start somewhere. Standardized testing falls short on this account because it neglects non-standard things. So testing should be a never-ending process of application under a variety of circumstances, ideally.
Anyhow, I'm probably rambling and using a lot to say very little...I enjoy talking about chess a little too much sometimes.
Take care,
Matt
Hi Matt,
Another one of the problems with standardized testing is that it promotes a minimum level of mastery for a generic student. I've always felt a tutorial teaching model which allows curriculum and testing to be individualized produces the most efficient learning. Not always available due to limited resources and the costs involved however.

I know a little bit, a very little bit, about chess and a major difference between it and go is that in chess two sides start with all their resources on the board and attack and destroy each others resources until there is a draw or a checkmate. In go two players start with an empty board and stake out respective claims to territory until there is no space remaining to be claimed. Very often the best games involve a number of changes in the lead with attacks and counter-attacks going on simultaneously in several parts of the board at once and the final result is a difference of only a couple of points between two closely matched players making more than 100 moves each in the course of the game. Often the difference is due to one player sacrificing too much to make territorial gains as pieces captured are subtracted from territory gained. Handicaps can be figured very accurately so that a higher ranking player can play with interest against a weaker player. Both games involve a lot of the same skills and abilities but go is, at least to me, much more like aikido than chess is. With your background in chess you could progress from 30-kyu to 10-kyu in no time at all. See http://www.kyu2dan.com/index.php for more info and enjoy.
Best regards,
Rudy

Last edited by abraxis : 05-30-2011 at 05:21 PM.
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Old 05-30-2011, 05:19 PM   #177
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

I get the feeling 3 or 4 conversations are going on in parallel here. Even though they are all interesting, it becomes hard to follow each conversation.
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Old 05-30-2011, 05:24 PM   #178
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

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Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
well, yes of course anything can have a value. I agree. Of course, one paradigm can be more effective than another, too.

What I cannot understand, and what keeps puzzling me is why, among the many paradigms that may have a teaching value for attaining the depths of a kata, we have decided to found our default training using the ideograms of a samurai who could not come to terms with the fact he was no longer entitled to wield a sword, while we refuse of taking into consideration making our main and major training based on punches and strikes instead, as they occur in our modern western fights.

Our fights are no longer mostly sword fights, but mostly fist fights.

I have nothing against demonstrating a kata on a shokomenuchi also, as an occasional variation.
My contention is that our default teaching programs should be based on punching attacks because that's what we could be called to act upon in the vast majority of "street" cases.

Letting shokomenuchis and telegraphed yokomenuchsi being our default paradigm rather than determined fast and fastly rechambered punching, seems to me like having turned priorities, with the unavoidable consequence that many pupils may found themselves instantly at odds when attenpting aikido against a modern western attack. Most of them seem utterly unaware of the difficulties that implies, and our videos of "tsuki vs aikido" completely conceal to their eyes and training experience how incredibly challenging it may be getting an hold of an arm against a frantic attacker who rechambers instantly and then rechambers and strikes over and over again, within half a second's timespan, all the while stepping back and forward spinning on himself to be sure he keeps facing us.

This seems something many aikidokas are completely unaware of.

The reason I insist so much is that after 36 official boxing matches, I know as a fact what a challenge a competent boxer can be if your goal is to seize one of his arms. It's not going to be easy game!!!
Alberto:

I think that you raise an interesting point in the distinction between a fighting style and a fighting art. They are not the same thing and are frequently confused and mixed up with one another. In many respects, a fighting style is mostly concerned with the external aspects of surviving a fight. A fighting art is more of an self-exploratory process that centers around the self amidst a conflict. I have pursued both paths in my life and for over the last twenty years, sought the path of the art form. Both are valid and respectable pursuits. I personally prefer the art at this point in my life. I frankly think that it has enabled me to have a higher success rate in surviving a conflict.

The issue regarding trying to grasp/control the arm with a good punch or jab is ridiculous. That said, the techniques can still emerge by virtue of the dynamics of movement and connection, rather than feeble attempts to control. Aikido in it's essence, is not about control over, but connection with another person. The techniques should reflect that ideal.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
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Old 05-30-2011, 05:38 PM   #179
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

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Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
I was thinking, for instance, that a bag stuffed with weights (I was thinking of phonebooks) and a long strap by which it can be held to make it spin could perhaps have some training value - dunno how yet of course, but after all we have here a lively thread about new (or not so new) training ideas.
I think Dave put it well. I depends on what you want to work on. I think those are some good ideas. I used to take my heavy bag and spin it as fast as I could so I could see what it felt like to interact with a spinning target. I'd hit it or "jam" it in a kind of two-handed shomenuchi, playing around with the spin and against the spin.
I would also play with rope or power cords to try and move the whole cord using wave/spiral motions, trying to use my center and to have a sense of connecting through the whole length. Coincidentally i tried this the other day and was dissapointed at how badly I was at controlling the cord. I used to be able to make the wave travel the whole length, but not any more.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 05-30-2011, 05:44 PM   #180
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

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I get the feeling 3 or 4 conversations are going on in parallel here. Even though they are all interesting, it becomes hard to follow each conversation.
Quite a challenge if your looking to integrate all of them into a useful new synthesis.
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Old 05-30-2011, 07:33 PM   #181
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

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(Off-off-topic):

Microsoft and Aikikai

Aug 12 2010

Eric Draken

They have one major thing in common!

As a Computer Science major we had to study the history of computers and software from all the way back when they used water machines to tell time. In that class we studied a young Bill Gates. He wrote MS-BASIC, a programming language/interpreter, which was written on punch tape and demonstrated at a Home Brew Club meeting in the late 70's. He was not the only one making BASIC interpreters at that time. Why was he so successful then?

His copy got stolen, copied many, many times, and as a result became the de facto standard version of BASIC. He tried hard to fight this piracy. However, as a result of the widespread copying, unexpectedly everyone wanted to be Bill Gates BASIC compatible. Now his is a household name.

When Aikido videos get into the wild and go viral on YouTube, it helps to spread the art and the unique style of that shihan. Doshu, Tissier, Endo and Saito are my favorite examples. Maybe they try hard to prevent piracy, maybe they feel C'est la vie. Either way, I know more about Tissier and Doshu than I know about any other shihan. I can safely say that Aikikai is the de facto standard of Aikido because of its widespread publications and the sheer number of practitioners who follow it and love it.

As a result, I want my Aikido to be Aikikai-compatible because then I belong to a brotherhood of like-minded people who all believe in more or less the same philosophy. Not only that, because I also want to know of a particular style (財団法人合気会のは), I can feel more connected to O-Sensei, Japan, and my Aikido heroes.

This is only possible because we live in the best era with free, universal access to a wealth of Aikido knowledge which brings together a global Aikido community. Isn't that wonderful?

It is a shame that some brilliant shihans don't want to be recorded, or only want to keep their videos private. They don't realize that they are dooming themselves to obscurity and their unique style and insights to oblivionů just like those other guys who wrote their versions of BASIC.

Update: 2010.08.11 -- This post is about the whole idea of shihans being recorded at their dojos, at embukai, at seminars, at expos, and for commercial DVDs. I firmly believe that those who do not share their Aikido in this digital world may have their unique style lost in time.


http://wazajournal.com/thoughts/bill...d-aikikai.html
Interesting piece Thomas. Interesting point too.

Regards.G.
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Old 05-30-2011, 07:34 PM   #182
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Talking Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Partial cloud of fractured fragments with videos for this thread so far…

Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?a new type of training, facing a sparring punching partner with high mobility Find a teacher who offers you, what you need
And a skilled puncher ain't leaving the hand out for you to grab either The type of attack shouldn't matter. Cross-training is cross-referencing the material
The only training you need is going out to bars and pick up fights Not all bars are equal in effectiveness. If you want to fight, fight. If you want to box, box. If you want to study Aikido, study Aikido What??? The idea that O'Sensei was too stupid or ignorant to account for the way 95% of all physical conflicts start ( with a series of punches) in his syllabus requires a detailed explanation Um may I call a semantic time out? So I wonder: (a) where is founder's syllabus?
Why don't you ask Do I need to get better at Aikido? When the altercation involved just civilians The ratio of punches increased significantly. Please try to look at what I "wrote" not what you're "reading". Who is DJ? Well, since the two of you are determined to fight, I guess we'll find out if it begins with a flurry of punches or something altogether different. there may always be more than one attacker seek "New Training" I beg to differ...
they might even fall over when a strike or kick misses (especially when alcohol plays a part)
I would be interested in your impression of his practice and meanwhile I'll work on my semantics Now, can we go back on topic? every time you get it wrong then you get hit
From what I read here, we are kindred spirits not if I go by a quick skim of the police reports from my city I totally agree. Good Post A man with a 28" razor doesn't need to worry too much
If that raptor pilot ejects, I hope that he can deal with angle of attacks in a more up-close and personal setting..... "Don't ever, EVER punch someone in the head with your bare hand."
we went from "aikido does not focus on combat" to "aikido is not combat effective.
like the tea master Sen Rikyű said it's time to invent a new STUDENT
Pema Chodron says, you don't get lasting happiness by moving around the external circumstances. refuse to believe that in order to be realistic, one has to forfeit Aikido and go to die in bars. I took Aikido to learn to fight better. Not to be at peace with the world
a very tough place where Japanese were not welcome seemed to be just the place he was looking for I hope you come up with some answers Sorry for thread drift all
Let's not get overly dramatic, here...I make a point that if a new person is not striking well, that they punch me in the chest Maybe I've just been lucky This is incorrect for several reasons.
What a surprise....not! To save time I will accept what you say
'old-fashioned' physical farming certainly involves all kinds of interesting body mechanics.
I must say I did not totally accept his analysis of the current status of Aikido.
I frequently have contact with farmers and farming (opinions are of course like rear ends
That is also done without any real data, the Japanese are out to get you.
That's your problem, not anybody else's. I'm just a fella trying to help, and hoping it all works out.
Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see! I tend to be a little myopic in my reading. I also welcome constructive advice So, where does Morihiro Saito fit into this picture?
So you teach the spiritual principles do you? People were discussing the concept of "delusional" right? That is a bit harsh.
As usual I find myself caught between two different ideas and trying to weigh them both.
was surprised to read that Bill Gates is a go player too. I think I'm going to play a game now
Danika Patrick finishes in 10th or so Quos ferit, feriat silentio, in silentio et diligentia salus tamen.
Having to "Walk your talk"... in strange rooms, can be risky Do you train in Aikido?
hope those few don't screw it up for the rest of us in the meantime.
We don't fight disarmed cowboys shooting at us with invisible guns SEAL's are better not because they are faster, stronger, and better trained, though they are fast, and strong and well-trained
What I cannot understand, and what keeps puzzling me is why shows the mindset of the people posting I think you would have to write a book to explain this stuff in detail.
It's not all about content pure luck can dictate that outcome
Sounds pretty ridiculous to me so far this fairly screams selection bias in action.
Most people don't seem to want to change how they communicate though
Every now and then old lines will get revived because someone discovered something new
ding-ding-ding-ding-ding. we had to study the history of computers and software from all the way back when they used water machines to tell time Proof may simply not be available in any hard way...And as it relates to conversation over the internet I know a little bit, a very little bit
Even though they are all interesting, it becomes hard to follow Aikido in it's essence, is not about control over, but connection with another person. The techniques should reflect that ideal.
tried this the other day and was disappointed…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51090bGcoR8
http://ejmas.com/jnc/2007jnc/jncart_Leblanc_0701.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVqE9DKCcrk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW6pVFOpE6Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwTE0...eature=related
http://www.usgo.org/teach/quotes.html

Last edited by abraxis : 05-30-2011 at 07:46 PM.
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Old 05-30-2011, 07:46 PM   #183
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
This is an issue in the education field relating to Advanced Placement classes. Many people feel that by taking the kids who, for whatever reason, already do better and giving them a discrete location, you punish those who don't do as well (for a variety of reasons)....the counter-argument often being, however, that by leaving a highly developed student in a lower-developed setting, you're still holding them back....
I don't get the sense there is an easy answer to account for both issues (focusing on a few to make them real good, or many to make them somewhat good); we're clearly going to have to make concessions somewhere.
Sure there is, abandon the factory model of uniform input/output production line and go back to the older ideal of group learning -- which is as true in the one room schoolhouse (where my great-grandfather had to read and write Greek and Latin to graduate high school) as in the kohai-sempai form. The better students learn more by having to also help teach what they have learned to the newer or less apt pupils. They learn to understand by having to explain. But that requires us (Westerners) to give them independently demonstrable concepts ( even at low levels of utility) and objectively descriptive language to use in doing that -- and which we have until now thoroughly lacked.
Many were left unknowing and those that began to notice waited to be todl what was wrong or how to fix it. Noone of that was their fault they simply lacked any normal tools for independent descriptive critique and to recognize and development the elements of the training that remedy the problem.
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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I get the sense he's describing what he perceives to be a systemic problem and his part of remedying that involves teaching those who are in charge of their respective segments of the system...and largely because (I'm guessing somewhat) certain people have asked him to.
...
You've been given a lot of flack for your use of mechanical models. I like them because they give me interesting/useful ideas to reference. Dan has been given a lot of flack for his opinions on the general state of Aikido. I like them because they give me interesting/useful ideas to reference.
I share Dan's critical view of the state of aikido, in general, but not his view of the lack of resources to address it within the art -- for the reasons stated. The aiki-taiso are the main overlooked and ill-attended aspect of those resources, but with weapons and due attention to what the formalized paired kata in waza actually represent, they form a tripod of training. Constant alternation between them allows the revelations of each to reinforce the others.

I have attended to trying to explain objectively why they matter, and how they relate in ways that are freed from either idiosyncratic expression, (e.g. - Dan, among others,however effective in their own right) and ill-understood foreign terminology that are used for place holders with extremely poor descriptive boundaries in our categories and only loosely or metaphorically translated, if ever. That can be fixed. I see one way of fixing it. There are others.
But they must be fixed in terms that provide the tools for independent comprehension and development in order to avoid the same degradation from the same causes we have seen to this point.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
That all said, I do wish I saw more conversation in which "we" seemed to try to understand the validity to what the other was saying more than to make the other understand us.
I am always open to conversation.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 05-30-2011, 08:00 PM   #184
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

I think a couple of interesting points have developed that I would like to address.

First, I believe O'Sensei absolutely wanted to wanted aikido to attract a larger demographic. He said as much in numerous interviews and altered his curriculum to allow for better consumption by the lesser trained non-martial community. O'Sensei's aikido was derived from his exposure to multiple martial arts, from which he mixed the overlapping principles and developed an art. O'Sensei realized (and rightfully so) the methods and training avenue he took to arrive at his aikido was not a path that could be consumed by many, particularly by non-martial and incompetent martial artists. One can argue the extend to which aikido has been altered from the aikido O'Sensei expressed, but what we do today is not what O'Sensei did. Give credit to the fact that the aikido O'Sensei began disseminating post-war and Doshu continued was consumable en mass and today we have a large training population because of that curriculum.

Second, I believe this large training population has created a technical issue that is damaging the dissemination of proper aikido. Simply put, more poor aikido people are disseminating the art than good aikido people. Again, you can argue the number but we are in the process of rebuilding a competent teaching population.

From my perspective today's training population includes a number of incompetent individuals, many whom are quite satisfied in their incompetence. I do not believe O'Sensei expanded the world of aikido to people so so they could not "get it." How many people do you know train aikido? How many of those people can do aikido? Not armchair quarterbacks; I mean understand, apply, and execute aikido principle on and off the mat, no excuses, no whotifs. 1 in 4? 1 in 10? 1 in 20? Now how many of those competent people are good? That's a small number...

In ASU, I have noticed a trend in some of the good people I choose to follow. They stopped teaching technique. You go to see Saotome Sensei or Ikeda Sensei and your weekend is spent working on aiki exercises. I believe ASU is working to try to re-invigorate its aikido with aiki. It is stupid to even say it. We don't know what we are doing or why we are doing it and I am thankful of leadership that is working to correct those issues.

Outside of the parameters of conduct we can't even replicate aikido. We have changed aikido's philosophies to match our skill set, we have not changed our skill set to match O'Sensei's philosophy. Sometimes we can't even keep ourselves in line with our BS and we contradict ourselves. Call it conjecture, call it hearsay, call it a lie. Ikeda Sensei is often quoted for saying aikido works, your aikido does not. I believe this is his way of reminding us that what we think is aikido sometimes is not what aikido is.

We can go right on pretending that our aikido is great. We can use pejorative language and dismiss those who remind us we are not wearing clothes. The elitist intellectual inside us wants to rationalize our aikido as competent. I couldn't throw my uke because he had bad energy... or she was not being sensitive... or he was resisting... How about because I didn't correctly apply the technique?

We are trying to present a education to a greater number of individuals than who are competent to consume it. Sugar coat it however you will, but not every human being was meant to train aikido. Not every human being who trains aikido will be competent. Not every human being who is competent will be good. That's OK. The origin of martial arts was to educate a fighting body to a level of competency greater than the average person. Understand that goal and praise those who provide additional outlet for those who excel.
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Old 05-30-2011, 08:32 PM   #185
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I would also play with rope or power cords to try and move the whole cord using wave/spiral motions, trying to use my center and to have a sense of connecting through the whole length. Coincidentally i tried this the other day and was dissapointed at how badly I was at controlling the cord. I used to be able to make the wave travel the whole length, but not any more.
Try a length of moderate weight chain slightly longer than you can reach over your head. Lay it out on the floor and grab one end -- then get the opposite end off the floor in a repeatable and controllable way -- until you do -- watch your head !

There are other good exercises with it but that is a good one to work on. "Linear" striking with the loose end of the chain is another one -- like a whip but not like a whip -- and double watch your head until you figure that one out.

The length is such that if you do it properly you know you can manipulate the remotest part of your partner's whole structure directly. Kokyu tanden ho is the same essential "shape" and dynamic as the striking or lifting chain but slower -- a landslide versus the crashing wave. Funetori, tekubi furi, udefuri all train aspects of this.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 05-31-2011, 07:22 AM   #186
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

I met this guy on the internet a few years ago. He had all sorts of crazy ideas about internal power and aiki and training for it. He truly believed he had something. When I finally met him, he had nothing, absolutely nothing by way of either. One of the saddest things was touching hands with him and the look in his eyes when he realized he had wasted so many hours trying to work out something that was essentially worthless in the first place and not worth one single hour of his time.
Thankfully, he is now doing the smart thing. He's going out to meet a few of the guys who actually do have something and have a history of successfully teaching.
Unfortunately, he is not a teacher, but I made him promise that everywhere he goes, and with his mates, he would help others avoid the trap of bad advice.

Its funny how exposure and education can change your view. I can't imagine anyone looking at the aiki arts and NOT thinking they need an overhaul, but I understand how many cannot see that. Two years ago a Japanese Shihan (a friend of Doshu) told his students he was quitting teaching aikido because he discovered aiki. He invited them to quit if they didn't like it. Several did. The others...well...they are learning aiki. It will be interesting when those different student groups meet a few years from now. When they feel it, most stop in their tracks and switch over, but some people...well...there is just no helping some people.
Doshu said to him "Thats amazing, but I can't do that. They would kill me if I did that. I have to do what my father did."
As Peter Goldsbury pointed out, there is a status quo in aikido. a rather bland standard. It is very real and while some see through the smoke, others think it is the gold standard. Oh well.
The new leaders, the best of the best, will no longer be from Japan. They blew it and many know it. Their response will be to circle the wagons (like you see sometimes here), a desperate last gasp that in the end will prove to be futile. We do need a new training model and it is already all around you.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 05-31-2011, 07:31 AM   #187
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Alberto
There is a seamless way to go from ground to kneeling to weapons to MMA with a single body method to produce aiki. It is actually within the art but I have yet to see anyone capable of it in aikido or Daito ryu. It can be demonstrated in slow motion seemlessly from classical models to boxing, then at speed. It is truly beautiful, a prize worth the work, the one truth of aiki. Don't give up hope on the art, change your training. There are already shihan in the art doing just that. Whether people like it or not, the ASU may be leading the way with its openess and innovative mindset.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-31-2011 at 07:42 AM.
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Old 05-31-2011, 07:53 AM   #188
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

One small edit
Another group pursuing this are Shirata's guys in Oregon and the Netherlands. As I stated here, Shirata was one of the greats under Ueshiba, and lo and behold, he had solo exercises that actually had value and work.....and Kisshomaru....banned them.

I can't wait for some of the books that are going to be written in a few years about the early days of modern aikido. So many interesting stories that gibe seamlessly with what I have previously been told..
New model? The art would have been in a lot better shape with the old one being allowed to actually be taught.

ASU, some of Imaizuma's people, Shirata's people, Birankai teachers, Shihan in the USAF, Ki society, Daito ryu people, four different Koryu and ICMA, joining with MMA people...and all chasing one thing. Interesting indeed. Were not inventing a new training, we are in hot pursuit of an old one that actually worked.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-31-2011 at 08:02 AM.
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Old 05-31-2011, 08:46 AM   #189
sakumeikan
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
One small edit
Another group pursuing this are Shirata's guys in Oregon and the Netherlands. As I stated here, Shirata was one of the greats under Ueshiba, and lo and behold, he had solo exercises that actually had value and work.....and Kisshomaru....banned them.

I can't wait for some of the books that are going to be written in a few years about the early days of modern aikido. So many interesting stories that gibe seamlessly with what I have previously been told..
New model? The art would have been in a lot better shape with the old one being allowed to actually be taught.

ASU, some of Imaizuma's people, Shirata's people, Birankai teachers, Shihan in the USAF, Ki society, Daito ryu people, four different Koryu and ICMA, joining with MMA people...and all chasing one thing. Interesting indeed. Were not inventing a new training, we are in hot pursuit of an old one that actually worked.
Dan
Dear Mr Harden,
Good article , your last sentence gives me hope for the future.
Cheers, Joe.
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Old 05-31-2011, 08:58 AM   #190
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
...ASU, some of Imaizuma's people, Shirata's people, Birankai teachers, Shihan in the USAF, Ki society, Daito ryu people, four different Koryu and ICMA, joining with MMA people...and all chasing one thing. Interesting indeed. Were not inventing a new training, we are in hot pursuit of an old one that actually worked.
Dan
Positive...Futuristic... Outstanding!
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Old 05-31-2011, 10:28 AM   #191
graham christian
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Let me see now. It appears to me there is a new game at hand. THE SOLUTION.

1. You get a new way of training and delivery that fills a hole left by the current modus operandi.

2. You demonstrate it to people of high standing and those aware enough to see it's beneficial application.

3. You promote, promote, promote.

4. In such promotion you gather all data and names of people who agree.

5. You denegrate and ridicule the governing body in their ways.

Numbers 1 to 4 is fine. Number 5 is despicable. Such is my view.

This may be standard business practice, it may be considered normal, it may be human nature. I may be wrong in my thinking.

However, let's remove the smoke and mirrors shall we.

Number 5 only has one outcome. A split. Talk about going back to the old ways. Unless of course that's what some want.

Regards.G.
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Old 05-31-2011, 10:49 AM   #192
Eric Joyce
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Let me see now. It appears to me there is a new game at hand. THE SOLUTION.

1. You get a new way of training and delivery that fills a hole left by the current modus operandi.

2. You demonstrate it to people of high standing and those aware enough to see it's beneficial application.

3. You promote, promote, promote.

4. In such promotion you gather all data and names of people who agree.

5. You denegrate and ridicule the governing body in their ways.

Numbers 1 to 4 is fine. Number 5 is despicable. Such is my view.

This may be standard business practice, it may be considered normal, it may be human nature. I may be wrong in my thinking.

However, let's remove the smoke and mirrors shall we.

Number 5 only has one outcome. A split. Talk about going back to the old ways. Unless of course that's what some want.

Regards.G.
Hi Graham,

I think what Dan is doing (you may or may not agree with his style of delivery) is to bring awareness about this particular skill set and to challenge other aikidoka's ways of thinking and training. I don't believe Dan was denigrating or ridiculing, but rather making an observation that he feels passionate about.

Eric Joyce
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Old 05-31-2011, 10:54 AM   #193
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Well let's see:
The promotion part of it involves so many people either teaching or training it that it defies any self serving goals like money or fame. It's more about the work...not the person.

The split means what? Most people trainng this way. Opperate just fine within their art. Just who is splitting from whom?
Internal power and aiki are defining, you either got it- to one degree or another-or you don’t. The trouble with more and more people getting it is that it makes the japanese shihans and the decades long training requirement...obsolete. Even worse, we are combatively more effective to boot.
You say it is causing a division, I have your arts teachers telling me it is bringing people together in ways they have never seen before.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-31-2011 at 11:04 AM.
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Old 05-31-2011, 11:34 AM   #194
graham christian
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Well let's see:
The promotion part of it involves so many people either teaching or training it that it defies any self serving goals like money or fame.

The split means what? Most people trainng this way. Opperate just fine within their art. Just who is splitting from whom?
Internal power and aiki are defining, you either got it- to one degree or another-or you don't. The trouble with more and more people getting it is that it makes the japanese shihans and the decades long training requirement...obsolete. Even worse, we are combatively more effective to boot.
You say it is causing a division, I have your arts teachers telling me it is bringing people together in ways they have never seen before.
Dan
Dan.
Thanks for the reply. I agree that if it is filling a hole and bringing more and more people from different part of the arts together then that is good and commendable.

I am only saying that there is still a lesson to be learned. If you say negative things about another group then it invites negative attacks. Negative attacking brings negative attacking leads to the same old wars and blames and us and them and who is best etc.

Thus division, created division.

My views are from my understanding of Aikido be they right or wrong and thus lead me to see there are differences between wars and splits or division compared to peaceful transition.

In peaceful transition no one gets hurt. By letting those who you consider 'wrong' be, by non resisting and moving on then that is also progress without the negativity.

There is an old maxim, divide and rule, which uses such negativity. An old game. Yet those who do it are unwittingly following or being encouraged by a few with such aims. Either way it's all unnecessary from my view.

Actually, I am neutral to this whole scene and watch with interest.

I have seen the same thing happen before, be it with Tohei situation or the splits in England or any other scene in life. It gets quite boring.

It only takes one discipline to adhere to in my opinion for better progress and less politics. The discipline of not doing number 5.

That's all.

Enjoy your venture and may you have great success.

Regards.G.
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Old 05-31-2011, 02:42 PM   #195
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

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In peaceful transition no one gets hurt. By letting those who you consider 'wrong' be, by non resisting and moving on then that is also progress without the negativity.
I believe that we are trying to arrest a transition that is ongoing. In Graham's example, the people who "have it" are the "wrong" minority, I believe a small minority. And the majority is not leaving them alone. Not withstanding Mr. Hardin's communication style, I can probably drum up many personal and negative attacks on the likes of Dan and the Internal guys on this website alone.

I think we need to also come to understand that having our feelings hurt does not equate to negativity. In a previous post I stated that I believe some aikido people are not competent in aikido. That does not mean they are bad people, or that I would not be friends with them or even that they should quit training. It simply means that they do not possess and express the necessary skills to apply principles of aikido.

The problem is when the have nots begin drowning out the haves. This creates a diminishing equation that eventually damages the art beyond repair. As stewards of the art, I believe we all have a responsibility to protect the integrity of aikido.

The equation of harmony will always require a balanced outcome; here is no such thing as a "peaceful transition" or a "free lunch". The cost for many of us in this case is realizing and admitting we don't have it and finding a training method that will allow us to get it. But ego is not a problem in aikido, right?
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Old 05-31-2011, 05:05 PM   #196
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

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Jon Reading wrote: View Post
I believe that we are trying to arrest a transition that is ongoing. In Graham's example, the people who "have it" are the "wrong" minority, I believe a small minority. And the majority is not leaving them alone. Not withstanding Mr. Hardin's communication style, I can probably drum up many personal and negative attacks on the likes of Dan and the Internal guys on this website alone.

I think we need to also come to understand that having our feelings hurt does not equate to negativity. In a previous post I stated that I believe some aikido people are not competent in aikido. That does not mean they are bad people, or that I would not be friends with them or even that they should quit training. It simply means that they do not possess and express the necessary skills to apply principles of aikido.

The problem is when the have nots begin drowning out the haves. This creates a diminishing equation that eventually damages the art beyond repair. As stewards of the art, I believe we all have a responsibility to protect the integrity of aikido.

The equation of harmony will always require a balanced outcome; here is no such thing as a "peaceful transition" or a "free lunch". The cost for many of us in this case is realizing and admitting we don't have it and finding a training method that will allow us to get it. But ego is not a problem in aikido, right?
Great Post.

William Hazen
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Old 05-31-2011, 05:27 PM   #197
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
I believe that we are trying to arrest a transition that is ongoing. In Graham's example, the people who "have it" are the "wrong" minority, I believe a small minority. And the majority is not leaving them alone. Not withstanding Mr. Hardin's communication style, I can probably drum up many personal and negative attacks on the likes of Dan and the Internal guys on this website alone.

I think we need to also come to understand that having our feelings hurt does not equate to negativity. In a previous post I stated that I believe some aikido people are not competent in aikido. That does not mean they are bad people, or that I would not be friends with them or even that they should quit training. It simply means that they do not possess and express the necessary skills to apply principles of aikido.

The problem is when the have nots begin drowning out the haves. This creates a diminishing equation that eventually damages the art beyond repair. As stewards of the art, I believe we all have a responsibility to protect the integrity of aikido.

The equation of harmony will always require a balanced outcome; here is no such thing as a "peaceful transition" or a "free lunch". The cost for many of us in this case is realizing and admitting we don't have it and finding a training method that will allow us to get it. But ego is not a problem in aikido, right?
Dear Jon,
Ego is not a problem in Aikido?I trust this is said with tongue in cheek. Cheers, Joe.
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Old 05-31-2011, 06:13 PM   #198
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
Great Post.

William Hazen
Yeah Jon. Quite a few good posts up there.
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Old 05-31-2011, 06:52 PM   #199
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

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I believe that we are trying to arrest a transition that is ongoing. ...The equation of harmony will always require a balanced outcome; here is no such thing as a "peaceful transition"...
Are we witnessing something here which is more than a transition within an organization of loosely affiliated dojos? Are we witnessing the equivalent of a religious reformation or a political revolution? I know this sounds dramatic and Aikido is not a religion or a country but it does seem that certain long held core beliefs are being questioned and in some people's eyes this may appear to be heresy while at the same time there are reformers who say they are trying to return to the true beliefs and practices of earlier days.

If this is not a "peaceful transition" and it comes to a war of styles, philosophies and methods of teaching I'm sure it will be a non-violent one and harmony will eventually prevail. And it will, without a doubt, be televised.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfJd0...eature=related

Last edited by abraxis : 05-31-2011 at 07:01 PM.
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Old 05-31-2011, 10:27 PM   #200
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Re: Do We Need To Invent A New Training? Yes/No/Maybe/How?

Mr. Ternbach
I get hesitant in over-reaching and using strong analogy to describe the current movement.
Why can't it be simple?
What is preventing us from having fun exploring the roots of the art and leaving it at that?
These days I feel more like a kid playing with friends than someone with an agenda. Let's leave that to the pin heads who want to ...be somebody, while we actually....do...some great shit all around them!!
Why not look to the future as a playground (lots of work for sure, but fun anyway) where people of like minds will meet and interact.
That fulfills Ueshiba's goals, and our goals as well. When you think of it, he was really having fun wasn't he. Did you catch the gleam in his eye? To hell with these people all caught up in the system.
How great is it to be rocking the house and them not being able to do a damn thing to you while they rank each other and hold meetings...and we are free and laughing at the same time and shooting past their best efforts!!
I think Ueshiba would be cracking up!
Cheers
Dan

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