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Old 05-19-2011, 04:33 PM   #26
SeiserL
 
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Re: Frustration with super-soft aikido class

IMHO, it would be reasonable to have this conversation with your Sensei and see if they can help you connect the connectedness to your technique.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 05-20-2011, 02:34 AM   #27
Abasan
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Re: Frustration with super-soft aikido class

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Not a bad practical algorithm!
I remembered my 1st year game theory halfway through the post. Lol.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 05-20-2011, 07:40 AM   #28
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Re: Frustration with super-soft aikido class

Is connection the same thing as timing? I assume it is but I've never heard it explained as connection. Just having correct timing.

-
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Old 05-20-2011, 07:56 AM   #29
Dave Forde
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Re: Frustration with super-soft aikido class

Quote:
jester wrote: View Post
Is connection the same thing as timing? I assume it is but I've never heard it explained as connection. Just having correct timing.

-
my understanding of connection is that if you grab you are not grabbing an arm you are grabbing the whole person and you are grabbing with your whole body. just like a boxers punch starts from his toes if you like.
my teacher has a saying that sums it up for me 'when your are grabbed - who's grabbing who?' by that he means can the other person let go of you, can he kick or punch? and when I try to let go of him there are consequences . timing is related but slightly different but still vital i reckon if one is to blend and 'connect' with uke.
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Old 05-20-2011, 07:59 AM   #30
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Re: Frustration with super-soft aikido class

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote: View Post
Is connection the same thing as timing? I assume it is but I've never heard it explained as connection. Just having correct timing.
To me connection is a different thing. The word Endo sensei uses is "atari". It is a certain way of "touching" uke and getting connected to his center through this way of touching and moving this.

uhh it's even difficult to explain this in my own language ...
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Old 05-20-2011, 09:01 AM   #31
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Re: Frustration with super-soft aikido class

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote: View Post
Is connection the same thing as timing? I assume it is but I've never heard it explained as connection. Just having correct timing.

-
Dear Tim.
No-timing is not the same as connection.Cheers, Joe
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Old 05-20-2011, 10:14 AM   #32
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Re: Frustration with super-soft aikido class

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Dear Tim.
No-timing is not the same as connection.Cheers, Joe
Thanks for that explanation!
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Old 05-20-2011, 10:44 AM   #33
Janet Rosen
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Re: Frustration with super-soft aikido class

Connection is the joining of the two peoples centers to form one unit. The goal of the attacker should be an attack that connects to the others center. The goal of the one being attacked is to make the connection earlier than the attacker does. As I currently understand things.

Janet Rosen
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Old 05-20-2011, 10:54 AM   #34
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Re: Frustration with super-soft aikido class

At this time, my sense of the connected state is a dependency achieved (and maintained) through balance, kuzushi. My partner becomes dependent upon my balance to maintain hers; this can be done will little pressure (or resistance). "Who's grabbing who?" is a great statement because your balance and ability to move are demonstratively affected if your partner controls your balance (kuzushi).
Similarly, the timing in which I achieve and maintain kuzushi is a window of opportunity that depends upon my partner's sense of balance and body awareness. If I do not seize my partner's balance within that window of opportunity I need to again search for an[other] opening (suki) in my partner's structure.
Finding out the "when" to act is very important to good aikido. Getting the chance to feel how your balance structure can affect others is very important to aikido. Don't let "soft" get confused with "in-effective".
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Old 05-20-2011, 11:43 AM   #35
Fred Little
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Re: Frustration with super-soft aikido class

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote: View Post
Is connection the same thing as timing? I assume it is but I've never heard it explained as connection. Just having correct timing.

-
No. Take an gas or diesel automobile -- there is the timing of the driver, and there is a considerable amount of timing internal to the engine system. Both could be perfect, but if the tranny is slipping, the u-joint is trashed, and the tires are bald, the effective transmission of power isn't going to happen and that ride just won't go down the road the way it should.

(This is an illustration. Don't take the analogy too far.)

Hope this helps.

FL

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Old 05-20-2011, 12:11 PM   #36
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Re: Frustration with super-soft aikido class

Thanks for the comments.

For me it seems like it's more semantics. Without a "connection" your timing is off so bad timing equals bad connection.

My boss studies Ki Aikido and we basically agreed that what I group in as timing also includes connection and off balance. I can now add this term to my vocabulary!

-
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Old 05-20-2011, 01:07 PM   #37
Janet Rosen
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Re: Frustration with super-soft aikido class

Tim, I'm not sure they are always so, you should pardon the expression, connected.... what I mean is, you can do partner practices from static grabs or even via balancing a horizontal jo between the two people's extended tegatanas that explore establishing/losing/establishing connection and they have nothing to do with timing.
I would say, without connection, you can still have the "right" timing in terms of moving/entering and ending up at the right place at the right time....you just either won't affect your partner or you will do so via muscling through.

Janet Rosen
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Old 05-20-2011, 01:46 PM   #38
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Re: Frustration with super-soft aikido class

The problem with training solely in technique without parallel training in connection is that it can develop really bad habits that will be very hard to eliminate once they are ingrained. There's nothing wrong with training waza -- at 6th kyu you definitely need to learn basic aikido movements as well, but I would consider yourself very fortunate that you get to study in classes that are focused on connection from time to time.
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Old 05-20-2011, 02:44 PM   #39
PhillyKiAikido
 
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Re: Frustration with super-soft aikido class

As a student, you have every right to expect what to study in class, but it doesn't mean your expectations or interests are the best for your growth in Aikido. If you do Aikido just for fun, pick a dojo that best meets your need or ask the teacher to teach something that won't make you bored. If you're serious about studying the true art, you need good teachers, hard training and tallents. Considering you're now a beginner, your teacher may know better about the art than you.

Connection is the core of Aikido, you should feel fortunate that your teacher knows the importance of it. As you see more in the Aikido community, you'll find not many teachers know about that, and fewer teachers unstand what connection really is.

IMHO, connection is just connection, it has nothing to do with anything else such as timing, centers or Kuzushi. It's like two rivers merge and become one, it's like your forearm linked with your upper arm through your elbow joint, blood and flesh, you'll feel nothing when you have the connection. It's easier to understand it if you study Ki. Once you have the connection, the rest parts of Aikido techniques such as timing, center or Kuzushi ... are just consequences.

Enjoy Aikido!

Last edited by PhillyKiAikido : 05-20-2011 at 02:47 PM. Reason: typos
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Old 05-20-2011, 04:02 PM   #40
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Re: Frustration with super-soft aikido class

Quote:
Fred Little wrote: View Post
No. Take an gas or diesel automobile -- there is the timing of the driver, and there is a considerable amount of timing internal to the engine system. Both could be perfect, but if the tranny is slipping, the u-joint is trashed, and the tires are bald, the effective transmission of power isn't going to happen and that ride just won't go down the road the way it should.

(This is an illustration. Don't take the analogy too far.)

Hope this helps.

FL
Hi Fred,
Did you buy your dodgy car from a smooth talking salesman?As it happens your description fits my very first car -a junkheap from Vauxhall motors.What a pig!!!
Cheers, Joe
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Old 05-20-2011, 04:07 PM   #41
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Re: Frustration with super-soft aikido class

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote: View Post
Thanks for that explanation!
Dear Tim,
Did you want a more detailed answer?You asked the question , I gave you the answer.Let me know if you wish more info.
Maybe P.M you???Cheers, Joe.
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Old 05-20-2011, 04:09 PM   #42
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Re: Frustration with super-soft aikido class

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
you just either won't affect your partner or you will do so via muscling through.
Thanks for that Janet and PhillyKiAikido. I've just never heard the term Connection used in Tomiki Aikido or Judo.

I think my idea of timing differs from others. Timing to me is getting the correct off balance and keeping Uke off-balance until he's in an unstable position and falls on his own accord. Timing is like the gears of a watch.

If the timing breaks, you get out of sync and have to get back in time. I guess you can replace timing with connection and say If the connection breaks, you get out of sync and have to regain your connection??

I always have grouped Off balance, Entering and Throwing as parts of Timing. Do you see connection as keeping Uke off-balance? Do you see keeping Uke off-balance as controlling Uke's center?

Tomiki Aikido is very linear and I don't do a lot of circular movements. The throws are more direct so the connection issue doesn't seem to be as prevalent as it would be if you are leading someone.

Thanks

-
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Old 05-20-2011, 04:10 PM   #43
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Re: Frustration with super-soft aikido class

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Tim,
Did you want a more detailed answer?You asked the question , I gave you the answer.Let me know if you wish more info.
Maybe P.M you???Cheers, Joe.
I was just kidding with you Joe, hence the smile! If you can add anything, I'd appreciate it.

-
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Old 05-20-2011, 05:04 PM   #44
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Re: Frustration with super-soft aikido class

Connection is not "like" anything; it is not a metaphor but a real, palpable energetic physical link between two people and as such can be specifically trained to feel for. In many dojos this is the intent of kokyu dosa - not to "do the throw" so much as to learn to feel the connection then move your center so that your partners is lifted ( kuzushi not being connectedness but flowing from connection) and then, yes he can be thrown. Done slowly it's an excellent way for both partners to give verbal feedback as it is very easy for connection to be fleeting - as soon as a person thinks about moving his partner it can vanish and you have to breath, relax, find it again. Happens to me all the time.....

Janet Rosen
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Old 05-20-2011, 05:09 PM   #45
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Re: Frustration with super-soft aikido class

To answer your question...as I understand things at the moment...I'd express it as: intent>connection>kuzushi; connection permits moving as a unit; kuzushi being the undermining of uke's structure that enables the technique. Timing gets you where you need to be at the right time and certainly can't be disregarded!

Janet Rosen
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Old 05-24-2011, 02:17 PM   #46
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Re: Frustration with super-soft aikido class

Well, I don't know how well I understand it or if we're all talking about the same thing, but in any case it's interesting to try to explain and see if what I say makes any sense.... From what _I_ understand in my own mind, a fairly basic and 'visible' example of what I think I'd probably refer to as connection would be through a series of locked joints. E.g. if I am holding a good sankyo, ukes wrist and elbow are locked and I am pushing through their shoulder at such an angle that I have a lever arm connecting their hand to their torso. And if I keep my arms extended in front of me and don't collapse my wrists, there's also a connection from my hips to my hand. So by twisting my hips I can directly move ukes torso, because I've made and maintained a good connection.

Except that in some techniques the leverage and transmission of forces is not as obvious as in a sankyo. But when done right, there is still a connection between your body (usually your hips) and their torso or hips, and I mean connection in a very straightforward physical way using forces and levers, not as a metaphor or anything psychological.

Of course the same words are often used for somewhat different things, so maybe what I'm thinking of isn't what most people mean when they say connection... I don't know...

What the best way to learn how to do that is is another question, though... through separate exercises, through actual techniques, etc...
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Old 05-25-2011, 03:10 AM   #47
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Re: Frustration with super-soft aikido class

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I train at an aikido dojo and one of my senseis, a shodan, is very into connection exercises. He sometimes makes an entire class out of them.
I think this shodan might be overdoing it. This is probably not a clever way to run a class, since unevitably some people will get very frustrated (like I would be if an entire class was speant on hip throws, since I suck mightily at hip throws). The first years one teach, one very easily overdo things and way too often, people who start teaching and the head of the dojo have too little conversation on how things are or should be done.

Talking to the main teacher of the dojo might not be a bad idea. The shodan teaching could need a tip or two on class structure, perhaps. If the main teacher says "I think X is doing that just fine" I guess you just sigh and bear with these classes. I take it you have several people teaching in the dojo, so there should be plenty of classes more to your liking.

Personally I would probably have loved this kind of classes, even as a 6th kyu.... eventually you will learn something from them, although you don't quite see the benefits now.
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Old 05-25-2011, 09:13 AM   #48
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Re: Frustration with super-soft aikido class

In short, I have trained in kickboxing, Kajukenbo, BJJ and for the past 12 years Aikido in mulitiple systems. I have found that in real combat situations the type of training that Shodan is offering you was most beneifical in that it builds neropathways that are solid and you can not make aikido techniques work without sensing the movements of an attacker. I do think it would be a good idea to allow even a shodan to lead you. I have a long way to go too, I must be open to learning at every opportunity, that is Aiki to me, fresh mind and open to any point that presents itself, and PATIENCE which is a greater lesson. But if you are unhappy you really should find some happiness in your training, you will get what you want if you seek long enough. BEST to you in your path. Domo. BTW i know I can't spell, but I hear that physicist refered to above could not either...

in Aiki
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Old 06-03-2011, 08:17 PM   #49
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Re: Frustration with super-soft aikido class

Aikido's core has become weak from too much explaination, from too many who can't , teach. People who can lecture fine but cannot go beyond a pretty demo. Too many are jumping willing to fix this and that with attactive sales pitches that add there slant on aikido adding to the tower of bable that is now a shell of aikido.
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Old 06-04-2011, 04:02 PM   #50
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Re: Frustration with super-soft aikido class

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
To answer your question...as I understand things at the moment...I'd express it as: intent>connection>kuzushi; connection permits moving as a unit; kuzushi being the undermining of uke's structure that enables the technique. Timing gets you where you need to be at the right time and certainly can't be disregarded!
Nice post Janet. Easy to say... hard to do. With proper training and good uke that give a real attack and try to recover if you do what you said and do their best within the yakusoku of the training to keep being "dangerous" it can become "not so difficult." Correct intent and continuation of that intent is necessary in both parties to learn timing and where you "need to be."

Best regards,

Chuck Clark
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