Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Weapons

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-11-2011, 08:00 PM   #126
KaliGman
Dojo: Warren Budokan
Location: Youngstown, Ohio
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 36
United_States
Offline
Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
For our own organization of thought, it is high time we are clear about what we want to know.

Technical syllabus is one thing, I don't believe FMA have anything "over" Aikido in this area.

Training methodologies are another thing. This would involve sparring, resistance drills etc. Some FMA have a major advantage here over most Aikido. The dog brothers are a good example of this.

Experience is another thing. People who have been in real life and death knife fights. This kind of experience is fleeting. First there are few people who have been in a life and death struggle over a knife. Second, most people who have didn't gather that much information from the exchange. That is to say, the one or two encounters didn't give them huge amounts of (non-personal) information over people who haven't been in a knife fight.

When training with an experienced person, it's important to remember they can only give you some insights, they cannot give you their experience. This can be seen time and again in sport martial arts. The best competitors don't necessarily make good teachers, and will often have a stable of students who are not great competitors.

Knife fighting is extremely dangerous, so very few would choose, or have the opportunity to be in many life and death exchanges. With the few that have, there is no guarantee that they can pass along any information that will help you.

Sparring, is as close as most of us will ever get (it's also as close as we want to get). Sparring can tell us what technical syllabus work well in sparring. But it's important to remember that sparring is not knife fighting.
Well, you know what they say about opinions. Personally, having studied aikijujitsu and aikido methodology as well as FMA, I would say that the technical syllabus of blade oriented arts (there are several Filipino Martial Arts that do not use the blade much if at all), is far superior. If I am looking to get the best knife and unarmed against the knife training I would seek a specialist, just as when I want someone to fix the engine on my car I go to an auto mechanic rather than a gunsmith.

Sparring is very good. However, to get really good unarmed against the knife, you have to spar against someone who is good with a knife. If you can't do progressive indirect attacks where you cut or thrust on one line and change to another line instantly, can't cut and thrust multiple times per second and on various lines of attack, can't attack with fluid and varied combinations, and can't do all this without telegraphing your moves, then you are a poor knife sparring partner.

As for instructors, I have found, over years of training in various disciplines, to include special tactics and firearms, that the absolute best instructors had real world experience and dojo/sparring/martial training/range training experience.

Your mileage may vary. Additionally, and somewhat off topic, I have seen some of your videos and, based on the body mechanics I have seen, you seem to be one of the more "martially minded" Aikido practitioners posting here. I disagree with you a bit on knife training, but applaud your efforts to find a good "combat system" within your Aikido.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2011, 08:14 PM   #127
KaliGman
Dojo: Warren Budokan
Location: Youngstown, Ohio
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 36
United_States
Offline
Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Eric Joyce wrote: View Post
Hi Chris,

By 1-10 pattern do you mean they are basically cutting the shape of a 1, 2, 3, etc.? I assume that is what you meant. I never heard of it before.
You probably never heard of it because it is incorrect. Kali/excrima/arnis systems are not all based around a 10 count pattern. Some are based around 7 angles, some 8, some 12, etc. One of the keys of most systems is to study the possible ways an opponent can bend an arm and attack you with a knife (the lines or angles of possible attack). Different attacks can come from different angles. Some systems emphasize various drills with multiple attacks from the same angle, some vary the angle. Sometimes the cutting methodology is a hit and retract (a hacking cut) and sometimes it is a cut or slash through. Patterns are learned to teach principle and body mechanics. When you fight, you had better be free form and non-repetitive or your pattern will be seen, intercepted, interrupted, and destroyed.

For a better idea of an FMA perspective concerning angles of attack, consider the slash through pattern in my own system, Albo Kali Silat. There are seven cuts, forming an asterisk type pattern, and then a thrust to the center to dot the asterisk. This is a beginning drill/pattern. It gets a lot more complicated from there.

I hoped this helped you rather than confused you. If you want more information on this, PM me or email me so we don't hijack this thread, and I'll try to explain things a bit more clearly (and point you to a couple of online resources that might help you out).
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2011, 09:38 AM   #128
jester
 
jester's Avatar
Location: Texas
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 329
United_States
Offline
Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Charles Toor wrote: View Post
Should I be worried that aikido in general is not effective for unarmed taking away tanto, or believe in aikido and that it is powerful enough to take away tanto safely, just I haven't seen it yet?
It all comes down to the person. Anyone with a knife is dangerous, even a young kid. Disarming a trained attacker with a knife would be almost impossible without getting cut.

Best thing to do is avoid the situation. Aikido training with knives teaches principals but I personally don't think they are meant for actual knife disarming.

I know everyone has an opinion on this but I can almost guarantee that if I had a knife and you tried to take disarm me, you will get cut no matter what Aikido rank or style you are.

-
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2011, 10:31 AM   #129
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote: View Post
It all comes down to the person. Anyone with a knife is dangerous, even a young kid. Disarming a trained attacker with a knife would be almost impossible without getting cut.

Best thing to do is avoid the situation. Aikido training with knives teaches principals but I personally don't think they are meant for actual knife disarming.

I know everyone has an opinion on this but I can almost guarantee that if I had a knife and you tried to take disarm me, you will get cut no matter what Aikido rank or style you are.

-
Hi Tim.
May I add something here as I agree it does all come down to the person concerned.

The point I think which is missed is that when talking about weapons vs. unarmed is the fact that the game has changed.

Now I think that those who use weapons are as guilty as those who don't in as much as reality goes. For instance is it REAL to the person with a knife that he has now given the right to the other person to break his neck or severely damage him.

The whole attitude here seems to be 'one has a weapon and the other must try to disarm'

That's good practice but not real in the sense that it doesn't fit life circumstances. When someone in life brings out a weapon you have now entered a new game the solution of which is not fighting but is budo. Thus the reality of budo comes into play which is nothing to do with fighting.

Good Aikido teaches you this. How many weapons people understand this? How many weapons people understand that they are putting their own life in danger when they use a weapon?

Samurai learned this lesson I suspect. Hence never to draw the sword unless you really are going to use it.

I would say that a great percentage of people who threaten with knives or even guns are relying completely on fear and the apparent sense of power it gives them over an unarmed opponent. Carried away by what they could do TO the opponent yet as in life the first to complain if the opponent then does something to them.

Thus I put it to you that if your weapons training is to do with budo
then it is indeed a fine art. If on the other hand a person learns it for other reasons it is merely a path to delusion and the way of the coward.

What do you think?

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2011, 01:00 PM   #130
jester
 
jester's Avatar
Location: Texas
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 329
United_States
Offline
Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I would say that a great percentage of people who threaten with knives or even guns are relying completely on fear and the apparent sense of power it gives them over an unarmed opponent.
This could be true, I don't know the stats but my point being that all things being equal (which we can only assume since this is hypothetical), the knife will win out. It's rock paper scissors at this point.

These type of questions can never be answered though. All situations are different, all attacks are different, all attackers are different. Is the sun in your eyes? Were you sneezing at the moment of attack? Is there a slippery surface? Is the guy on PCP? Were you on PCP?

I don't think the person being attacked has to disarm the attacker but he has to control the knife or render it useless somehow.

The original question wondered if Aikido is an effective art for disarming an opponent with a knife. I still say no. Running is the best defense for a knife.

-
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2011, 04:48 PM   #131
Eric Joyce
Dojo: Budoshingikan
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 179
United_States
Offline
Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

If you really want to amp up your training and test those aikido prinicples out, I highly recommend using a Shock Knife:

http://www.shocknife.com/

I use them in my Krav Maga training. A very humbling tool I must say but fun to test yourself.

I also agree with Tim, run if you can. Don't play hero.

Eric Joyce
Otake Han Doshin Ryu Jujutsu
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2011, 08:49 PM   #132
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote: View Post
This could be true, I don't know the stats but my point being that all things being equal (which we can only assume since this is hypothetical), the knife will win out. It's rock paper scissors at this point.

These type of questions can never be answered though. All situations are different, all attacks are different, all attackers are different. Is the sun in your eyes? Were you sneezing at the moment of attack? Is there a slippery surface? Is the guy on PCP? Were you on PCP?

I don't think the person being attacked has to disarm the attacker but he has to control the knife or render it useless somehow.

The original question wondered if Aikido is an effective art for disarming an opponent with a knife. I still say no. Running is the best defense for a knife.

-
Tim. Thanks for the response. Check out that saying you used above though......'All things being equal.......rock, scissors paper etc. This is actually 'all things being NOT equal.

This is precisely my point. Accepting you are dealing with a not equal situation. So talking about these matters they need to be put in the right category which is a category of not equal. That's the reality to start from. That's the perspective needed.

From that perspective a person can see clearly the simplicity of the scene. If someone draws a knife (not equal) and you want to play that game of not equal then obviously you draw out a bigger knife. Then he draws out a sword. Then you draw out a gun.

That's the madness involved in weapons use to be superior to the opponent. Just crazyness in action and is nothing to do with 'all things being equal' Its all to do with a mindset called being superior and dominant.

What that mindset fails to realize is where it leads to.

It is good sense to tell someone to run from a knife as being unarmed and probably therefore incapable of defeating it then that would apparently be the best course of action.

However, that doesn't mean don't train armed verses unarmed for that is an important part of Aikido where much can be learned. when someone find how to move and face a weapon and can do it with ease then and only then can you say it is possible and in fact for that person quite easy.

Is the person holding the weapon quite prepared to be damaged by the opponent? For he is bringing unfairness into the equasion and is quite willing to harm the opponent.(Be it using a tanto or bokken or whatever) I say this because people keep using the mantra of 'real' Well that works both ways. Real would mean giving the person with the tanto a black eye or bruised face or damaged shoulder for he is quite willing if being'real' to jab you hard and give you bruising.

Thus we see 'real' is not very real at all for if you have to damage each other then no one would be fit for the battlefield.

Training is training and merely a representation to build up skills and ability so that if an in life situation arises you automatically do without thinking.

Aikido actually teaches you not to run. It teaches how to move. How to move against an attack without discrimination as to whether the person has a weapon or not, is a boxer or a sumo or whatever.

If a person doesn't believe this then they doubt Aikido. Aikido would put you behind the person with the knife. So Aikido isn't the problem for Aikido works. We are the problem until we can see this and do it.

This is my personal view and experience. It is not a put down of you or anyone. It is merely a viewpoint I offer as my reality.

Thanks for listening.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2011, 07:30 AM   #133
jester
 
jester's Avatar
Location: Texas
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 329
United_States
Offline
Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Tim. Thanks for the response. Check out that saying you used above though......'All things being equal.......rock, scissors paper etc. This is actually 'all things being NOT equal.
Hey Graham, I think you misinterpreted my meaning. All things being equal means that you have the same exact skills before the knife is added.

It is after the knife where Rock, Paper, Scissors comes into play.

Sorry for the confusion and thanks for the reply!

-

Eric, that knife looks very cool! How potent is the shock? Do you have to press a button or anything or is it on all the time??


Tim

Last edited by jester : 05-19-2011 at 07:35 AM. Reason: Link Added
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2011, 09:24 AM   #134
Eric Joyce
Dojo: Budoshingikan
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 179
United_States
Offline
Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote: View Post
Hey Graham, I think you misinterpreted my meaning. All things being equal means that you have the same exact skills before the knife is added.

It is after the knife where Rock, Paper, Scissors comes into play.

Sorry for the confusion and thanks for the reply!

-

Eric, that knife looks very cool! How potent is the shock? Do you have to press a button or anything or is it on all the time??

Tim
Hey Tim,

Yes they are cool. Pricey as well but a fantastic training tool that provides immediate feedback. The electricity is controlled by an activator button on the handle. When I stab or slice, I depress the button and bingo...voltage city. It uses a 9 volt battery I believe. Just make sure to use them carefully. Protective goggles are highly recommended. Just read the instructions carefully to understand how it works and how it feels. The knife has adjustable settings (low, med, high). The highest setting can be painful (like a bee sting) and it does stimulate you through clothing. Also, the shock knife makes a very odd noise that can definitely add to the adrenaline of the situation

Eric Joyce
Otake Han Doshin Ryu Jujutsu
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How I Met Aikido rulemaker General 2 06-29-2010 10:02 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 12 Peter Goldsbury Columns 32 05-16-2009 06:05 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 5 Peter Goldsbury Columns 69 12-31-2008 11:41 AM
Is Aikido effective for police? erogers General 136 07-13-2008 07:00 AM
For Ted Ehara - Boundary of your aikido? billybob General 123 12-18-2006 04:52 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:16 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate