Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-01-2011, 01:39 PM   #76
Chris Parkerson
Dojo: Academy of the Martial Arts
Location: ohio
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 740
United_States
Offline
Re: bad technique vs. resistance

I have a saying that comes from homeopathic medical jargon that I apply to throwing arts. I call it the "Law of Similars".

In throwing arts, we need to float uike's whole body rather than just his/her upper torso. You will feel "resistance" when the uke's upper body is being stretched out while his/her lower body recenters itself inside their base.

If you only use your upper torso when practicing a technique, you only push or pull on the uper torso of uke. Thus the "law of similars".

The principle involved is about how long your leverage is. If you do your work from the bottoms of your feet, then you will float uke's whole body from the bottom of his/her feet. I believe that this rule is one of the most important principles we must follow.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2011, 02:40 PM   #77
JCT53
Dojo: Just This Aikido
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 59
Offline
Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Quote:
Zach Trent wrote: View Post
Thanks everyone for your suggestions and feedback:

I guess I wonder about the nature of ukemi- if ukemi means to recieve then why on earth would you ever resist?

Sometimes nage does not have my center, but that doesn't mean i resist him- I dunno
To me as uke, I don't really "resist" (or, as it is called at our dojo, "punk") tori, however, I do often walk out of a technique if it lacks in balance taking. So, I guess uke should be...neutral. He should be intent on attacking, not making tori's job hard, but he should not be like a house of cards and fall at the lightest touch either. That is just my thought.

*Take is with a grain of salt as I have only been formally training for 2 years*

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment."
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2011, 06:33 PM   #78
Alberto_Italiano
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 296
Offline
Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Students need to have permission to allow their technique to be what it "wants to be" rather than training themselves to force their partners into some predetermined form demonstrated by the Sensei. Otherwise you are simply training them to force their techniques and killing their sensitivity. Very bad martial arts.
Ah this guy has always been my ideal Sensei :-)
And he is not disjointed imho: he is intellectually rich. This is why posts where George intervenes normally branch out in many directions.

However to put my two worthless and rough cents into the original question: when uke resists openly, what to do?

There are much more competent answers than mine.
However, right or wrong: personally, I brazenly wait.

I just keep my hands on uke's arm in the position I was attempting the technique, and to his usually evident bewilderment, I just stay with my hands on him exerting no force whatever and I just wait.
Some ukes look at me as if wondering: well, do something.
I won't. I wait for them to do something.
Yet if he waits for too long, I can suddenly produce an arm lock, and wait in that position.

Sooner or later he has to move. As soon as he moves I follow his movement and see whether a technique flows out of it to unbalance him.
When he moves I follow his direction adding a bit of my own force and if he loses balance, it is normally possible to place a convenient technique. You don't need a big repertoire - certainly I haven't.

True, most dojos won't let you practice this way. But, then, they also shouldn't allow rigid ukes too. But, then...

ps i am a guy who fell several times on the mat (and on the ground) toghether with Ukes, in a very unstylish fashion with my legs flailing in the air, who attempts occasionally to force a technique (bad habits never die), and whose techiniques utterly fail once out of three times - on top of that, as a tori I lost balance myself slipped and fell twice face down doing a tenkan + kotegaeshi go figure: so, by all accounts discard my approach.

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 05-01-2011 at 06:44 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2011, 02:20 PM   #79
Shany
 
Shany's Avatar
Dojo: ISTA
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 163
Israel
Offline
Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Quote:
Zach Trent wrote: View Post
Hi- I'm sorry if this has been discussed to death...but I have a question and situation I am curious to hear your ideas about.

Um...In Aikido...what is the difference between someone resisting energy and you doing a poor technique?

I worked with a guy doing Shihonage the other day and I could only move him slightly before I felt a lot of resistance----"I was like man my technique is not good"----but my instincts were like "I ain't gonna fight this guy" so I moved him as far as I could and then changed sides.

I wasn't frustrated, just curious- the guy says "You want me to stop resisting? I find it helps me learn when people resist, but I can stop." I said, no, you just do what you want to. Its cool.

When I felt the resistance I noticed other techniques that were opening up...but it wasn't what the teacher showed so I just kept failing at Shihonage.

What do you guys think? Should your techniques work even when someone gets super rigid and muscled up?
Out in the real world, people will use resistance all the time, because that's their defensing mechanism.. but in the dojo, they are learned not to use resistance, which is also a mistake in the long run.
What you basically need to do is to develop and sharpen your instincts and your ingenuity to come up with a new resolution (not necessarily a technique) faster to get out of the situation you're in it.
If it were a life or death situation, I'm sure the adrenaline would kick in to find a faster solution, but we don't wanna rely only on that, do we?

So when you study, welcome resistance, ask people to be resistant to you at times, because, it is the perfect guide toward a faster resolution.

and when all else fails, grab the balls.

Last edited by Shany : 05-02-2011 at 02:26 PM.

A good stance and posture reflects a proper state of mind
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2011, 08:45 PM   #80
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
Location: Peterborough, NH
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 653
United_States
Offline
Re: bad technique vs. resistance

What I do depends entirely on uke and my relative experience.

If uke is junior, I assume they don't know what they're doing and I tell them why they don't want to be doing it. This may include a gentle demonstration, such as moving slightly from my center and inviting them to observe how their rigidity has given me a direct channel to control their center. Or it may include a more active demonstration, such as showing how easy it is for me to punch them when their rigidity leaves them open. (With junior aikidoka, it's nearly always being too stiff.)

If uke is at about the same level as me, I feel free to adapt the technique to take advantage of whatever opening they've given me. Recently, a guy I was practicing with received the beginning of shiho nage with totally stiff arms. Rather than trying to complete shiho nage, I took advantage of the leverage he'd given me to throw an odd reverse-kokyu thing that never would have worked if he'd been receiving properly. To his credit, he immediately saw what had happened and loosened up.

If uke is significantly senior, I assume they know what they're doing and they're trying to teach me something. So I try to find a way to move them compatibly with the technique we're practicing without fighting their power.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2011, 08:35 PM   #81
Mario Tobias
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 252
Philippines
Offline
Re: bad technique vs. resistance

My experience is that no matter how much the resistance uke is offering and how stable he is, there will always be a position where he will be weakest. Looking for these weakest positions takes experiementation and training.

My sensei says all techniques in general can be broken down into 3 generic movements 1) taking the balance (kuzushi) 2) doing the technique and 3) takedown, the most important being the first one and the last one, takedown as a "bonus". If you havn't taken his balance, you can't do the technique and if you can't do the technique, you can't do the takedown.

Kuzushi, as my sensei said is the most important but in my opinion/experience is also the hardest to master (a very good example of this is Endo sensei). Not only would you need to take physical balance, but you would also need to "take the mind". If you've successfully taken the balance, the resistance won't be there or has been diminished for you to do the technique properly. If your technique is poor, it's either your technique or you've done not so good a job at taking partner's balance fully or you let him regain balance even for an instant during the technique.

IMO also is that uke's kuzushi should always be taken everywhere and anywhere in the technique. Nowhere in the technique should uke be stable or regain stability. Uke will only be able to offer resistance "during" the technique if there is an instant of him regaining balance or him getting his center back.

My ideal analogy of a technique is Ying and Yang; it should be a picture where NAGE is of perfect balance and centeredness while UKE is the oppposite, where none of those traits exist.

Last edited by Mario Tobias : 05-03-2011 at 08:41 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2011, 10:12 PM   #82
Reuben
 
Reuben's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Seishinkan
Location: Kuching
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 111
Malaysia
Offline
Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
But as you said, in application, if they resist your technique, a new situation will arise, one where you can use another technique. In application you will flow from one technique to the next, because you can't expect any one technique to always work.
I think this is the key and as most things in real life it's often a combination of factors.

But the key thing is that uke shouldn't be applying resistance to cockblock the technique that he knows what is going to happen exactly. At this stage, it's important just to get the flow and learn the technique and introduce bit by bit of resistance so that you know he's not just dancing/giving it to you. A bit of resistance is ok but if you have real problems moving his arm, he's over resisting specifically to your technique.

When practicing a specific technique, resistance should only be so that you can feel how the technique should work and how the application of force from uke affects his balance and the technique. Without any resistance, Aikido is just a dance. However with too much resistance, the technique is jammed unless u apply superior strength which is not Aikido.

Now to the question, how do you know the technique works if it doesn't work against resistance? You have to assume uke does not know what you're going to do which is what usually happens in a more 'real' situation. Randoori is a good place to practice a higher level of resistance from uke where you are free to change and use whatever techniques you have learnt to go with whatever resistance he gives you. You know...if uke pulls, go with him, if uke pushes let him pass through sort of thing.

Now I have met highly ranked uke, that since they have had years of Aikido training, in randoori with more resistance, switching techniques becomes more difficult as they know what you're planning to do but you'll be surprised how you can appear that you're doing one technique and then change it into a different one. But that's a separate problem for another day
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2011, 04:10 AM   #83
Carsten Möllering
 
Carsten Möllering's Avatar
Dojo: Hildesheimer Aikido Verein
Location: Hildesheim
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 839
Germany
Offline
Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Quote:
Reuben Yap wrote: View Post
...
When practicing a specific technique, resistance should only be so that you can feel how the technique should work and how the application of force from uke affects his balance and the technique. [
I practice with a different understanding. We try to learn and to teach two ways of acting:

First way is to make a given technique work even if uke is resisting or trying to hinder this speficic waza. We try this just by using "aiki", not muscel power. This is usefull to work on a specific technique and on an understanding of details, aiki, connection (atari) and so on. It's just "technical". And it helps to develop self-confidence and "intention". To not just react to a situation but also to create the situation, which is important I think.

To learn to be flexible and to adapt to different situations is not the aim of this first way to learn.
This only is the second way: To learn to adapt, to spontaneusly change or "create" technique, to be flexible. And to accept a given situation.

Quote:
However with too much resistance, the technique is jammed unless u apply superior strength which is not Aikido.
Hm, I / We assume that the techniques of aikido are "designed" to deal with resistance without relying on strength / muscle power. I /we think exactly this to be the essence of aiki
So a "good" technique can not be jammed. (Or only when uke is much more advanced than tori.) Because it disturbes the "structure" of uke and works right through or around his strength. That's why we welcome strong resistance when working this way.

Quote:
Now to the question, how do you know the technique works if it doesn't work against resistance?
Refering to our understanding - you can't. If you have to assume that uke doesn't know what is coming or that he will not block a technique using dumb strengh you will not know wether a technique works or not. What we practice and what we see as "good" waza does not rely on this assumption. Being able to do a certain technique just because or just when uke is unaware of it we don't call "working" or "good". Maybe the action of tori can be called "good" or "working". But not waza in this case.

Last edited by Carsten Möllering : 05-12-2011 at 04:18 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2011, 05:22 AM   #84
Reuben
 
Reuben's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Seishinkan
Location: Kuching
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 111
Malaysia
Offline
Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Carsten: I think that to see an Aikido technique as irresistable no matter what uke does can't be right. What you're saying is that even when uke KNOWS what is going to happen and is allowed to resist, nage should be able to effortlessly do the technique if he's skilled enough.

I think that goes against the grain of what Aikido is. You work with what your uke gives you, so if he is resisting against one technique, you just do another one which his resistance makes him weak too. That's what Aikido is, using his resistance against him and different Aikido techniques are specific ways to deal with certain kinds of resistance.

What is the 'right' Aikido technique to do changes on what he gives you. So yes a 'right' Aikido technique will always work, but that doesn't mean you can apply a specific technique no matter what the resistance is, since it will be then the wrong technique for that situation.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2011, 07:43 AM   #85
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,157
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Dear all.
My tuppence worth here.Generally speaking in an Aikido lesson Uke knows what Tori is going to do beforehand.Now sometimes you get the occasional King Kong ]immovable object type of guy or the guy who deliberately blocks your waza.The first group usually ar just naturally stiff etc.The second group imo is the awkward squad.My own tactic is to appeal to the guys good nature , inviting him/her to soften up a bit..If this appeal does work, I have to either walk away from King Kong, soften him up [Atemi] or depending on circumstances alter the waza.
Of course the same situation can occur when Tori is being difficult eg not taking care of Uke.Many years ago I had reason to 'persuade 'a guy who was doing Shiho Nage in a elbow injurying manner.I gave this guy an opportunity to make my life more tolerable by not wrenching my arm off.He did not respond to my pleas.I took him to one side and quite against Aikido principles[I was younger then ] I stated quote 'If you do Shiho Nage once more on me like you have been doing despite my pleas , the next time you do it , I will [pardon the Greek ] EF---G - do you'.
Your body is on loan to Tori.This does not give Tori the right to
abuse you.Its a partnership Uke /Tori , both sides of the same coin.Both should learn from any encounter.
Cheers, Joe
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2011, 07:58 AM   #86
Carsten Möllering
 
Carsten Möllering's Avatar
Dojo: Hildesheimer Aikido Verein
Location: Hildesheim
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 839
Germany
Offline
Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Quote:
Reuben Yap wrote: View Post
What you're saying is that even when uke KNOWS what is going to happen and is allowed to resist, nage should be able to effortlessly do the technique if he's skilled enough.
Yes. - If he's skilled enough. Technically spoken this is (or should be) true.
It is just not allways reasonable in the sense of self-defense.

Quote:
I think that goes against the grain of what Aikido is.
Ok, this is your point of view.
In the aikido wich was taught to me from the very beginning, this is on the contrary a very important aspect of aiki. Not the only one, but a big one.
And is crucial when talking about kihon waza.

Quote:
You work with what your uke gives you, so if he is resisting against one technique, you just do another one which his resistance makes him weak too.
Then what do you do, if uke gives you nothing?
Can you only react? How do you take the initiative?
Do you depend on uke or are you free?

Quote:
That's what Aikido is, using his resistance against him and different Aikido techniques are specific ways to deal with certain kinds of resistance.
This may be true for the "wide/large/big" and "external" movements.
But you can also deal with resistance by a little rotation of the hand, the angle of the elbow, a small movement of your foot and ...
... not changing the external movement i.e. technique, but just using the "internal" structure" of your body, i.e. staying in the same technique but changing things hardly to see.

To me aiki doesn't only mean to "choose" the "right" technique but also choose the "right way" within a certain technique.

Quote:
... but that doesn't mean you can apply a specific technique no matter what the resistance is, ...
You mean, you think you are not able to do so or you don't like to do so?
We practice this way and learn how apply a specific technique no matter what the resistance is. Exactly this is part of our daily practice. It is not all, but part of our training.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2011, 08:10 AM   #87
Carsten Möllering
 
Carsten Möllering's Avatar
Dojo: Hildesheimer Aikido Verein
Location: Hildesheim
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 839
Germany
Offline
Re: bad technique vs. resistance

And how do you experience whether your technique is "good" or "works"? Can check your technique really only in randori?
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2011, 08:32 AM   #88
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,919
Spain
Offline
Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Short answer: Yes

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2011, 09:29 AM   #89
Alberto_Italiano
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 296
Offline
Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
And how do you experience whether your technique is "good" or "works"? Can check your technique really only in randori?
IMHO:
Basically randori is our only benchmark in Aikido. Actually also randori is far from being immune by ukes who still accommodate your technique, however it seems the best we can have as far as testing our techiniques in a more realistic setting is concerned.

Personally, I test all the techniques out of the dojo in a gym with a couple of friends who either don't know what i am going to attempt, or once they know they don't give a damn and keep either behaving normally in the striggle or also opposing vigorous resistance.

This immediately limited the scope of my techniques to a few basic ones plus a couple of customized versions that I would not do in a dojo but that introduce some efficacy against a determined opponent.
About 80% of the techniques I made in a dojo and that seemed to work there, I found out they do simply nothing against an opponent that won't do a thing to help you.

Of course, this also depends on the fact my aikido sucks. No problem admitting it. But it depends also on the fact some aikido techniques have been totally spoilt and wasted by years of malpractice against ukes that do their best to fall as soon as you lift a finger. We too often train treading too fictional a set.

The craziest thing of all is that one of the techniques that you can better place against a realistic opponent is the one I would have judged less fit: nikkyo. If you struggle your way to a wrist, nikkyo just seems the most spontaneous torsion to try.

In my very modest experience:
Major techniques that work:
arm locks of my invention derived from aikido
sankyo
nikkyo
Ikkyo can work if you quit doing it placing a hand on uke's elbow: place your chest or your forearm on it

kotegaeshi can do wonders, but in my experience it's not easy to "persuade" an uke who doesn't help you to put his palm upward

Major techiniques that never work
iriminage
Ikkyo !
atemi: works on "normal" guys, while guys with a boxing background, predictably, are not impressed by it in the least...

Still attempting to understand whether shiho nage could work - mine still sucks so I can't really judge yet about it.

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 05-12-2011 at 09:32 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2011, 09:45 AM   #90
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,919
Spain
Offline
Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
Personally, I test all the techniques out of the dojo in a gym with a couple of friends who either don't know what i am going to attempt, or once they know they don't give a damn and keep either behaving normally in the striggle or also opposing vigorous resistance.
Hi Alberto,

I'm wondering which "ruleset" are you using. MMA or a more restricted one?

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2011, 10:29 AM   #91
Alberto_Italiano
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 296
Offline
Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Hi Alberto,

I'm wondering which "ruleset" are you using. MMA or a more restricted one?
No ruleset at all, except safety.

I have been proceeding as follow in the last year:

1) My goal is to develop an aikido that may work in a really real situation. My idea of a "real" situation is that of my boxing background - over 20 years ago. An incoming attacker fast on foot, throwing punches, and not intimidated by an atemi.

2) Despite it may sound unconsequential with what stated above, behind the surface I am pursuing a spiritual goal: i want to dominate a fight using something that excludes any possibility of hitting my opponent. I consider this a challenge.

3) I gave up for the time being any hope of getting a belt. That's just not my goal right now. I will allow myself to pursue belts only when I feel ready - if ever. My idea of the 6th kyu is that of a 1st kyu, so I know I just will never get a belt. - *shrugs*

4) I don't attend one dojo. I attend several, i show up for a month to learn new approaches, then I disappear for 3 months. I don't really care whether they think I am just a lurker or someone not entirely in his good wits. I learned to keep a low profile because dojos don't like pupils who are too inclined to overanalyze the _failures_ of a technique.

5) I then train with 3 gusy out of the gym, two are ex friends of the times I was boxing long long ago. Another one hopped in seeing us training.
I do a lot of katas.

6) Till now, evidently, my aikido utterly sucks because I find using Aikido against a determined attacker exactly as difficult as this dan found it when he tried for fun with a friendly foe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMg1OuKWcgI (ps I don't consider that iriminage, but as said I have my onw rules )

It's an hopeless pursuit probably, and done all in the wrong and most unacademic manner. But at least it's gonna be my way, right or wrong.

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 05-12-2011 at 10:40 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2011, 11:11 AM   #92
Maarten De Queecker
Dojo: Aikikai Gent, Brugse Aikido Vereniging
Location: Bruges
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 139
Belgium
Offline
Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
And how do you experience whether your technique is "good" or "works"? Can check your technique really only in randori?
You know your technique works if you've got an uke who's got the sincere intention to utterly destroy you with an attack and you can succesfully stay in control of the situation.

Since randori seems to be the ultimate goal in aikido, it should count as the best way to test whether or not your technique works. However, randori with bad ukes aren't all that either. Uke should always attack with the intent to hit or immobilize you.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2011, 11:42 AM   #93
Alberto_Italiano
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 296
Offline
Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
IMHO (...)

The craziest thing of all is that one of the techniques that you can better place against a realistic opponent is the one I would have judged less fit: nikkyo. If you struggle your way to a wrist, nikkyo just seems the most spontaneous torsion to try.
Discussion boards are so useful because they also give you an opportunity to think, besides many others.

I think the reason an otherwise complex technique like nikkyo seems to come spontaneously against a heavily dynamic attacker depends on this: you attempt to irimi laterally to one arm.

If you manage to outfast your adversary who immediately attempts to face you squarely again to go on hitting you, at the moment you place your hands on his arm (say right arm, and you're lateral on his right side) your wrists are going to land there in extension (outstrech your arm, now raise your hand upward so that its back facing you: anatomically, that's an extension of the wrist).

At that point, once grabbed the arm, the spontaneous movement is precisely that of producing your wrist flexion (the opposite movement) because you just have a residual extension radius amounting nearly to nothing: you can't go that direction (that would prepare an uke upward palm for a kotegaeshi) any further.

Ath that point your next flexion, of course, produces exactly either a nikkyo set or goes for the sankyo.
I think this may account for why nikkyo seems to prevail, for me - I think.

It would be very unnatural going lateral and grabbing uke's arm with flexed wrists - that would mean grabbing from within, a position that makes you even more vulnerable and without any possibility of adding the momentuum of your chest leaning forward - which latter instead fits pefectly extended wrists grabbing an arm and then rotating internally with flexion.

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 05-12-2011 at 11:48 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2011, 02:58 PM   #94
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,919
Spain
Offline
Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
No ruleset at all, except safety.

I have been proceeding as follow in the last year:

1) My goal is to develop an aikido that may work in a really real situation. My idea of a "real" situation is that of my boxing background - over 20 years ago. An incoming attacker fast on foot, throwing punches, and not intimidated by an atemi.
Kicks, throws/takedowns and groundfighting included or punching only?

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2011, 01:01 AM   #95
David Yap
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 561
Malaysia
Offline
Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Yes. - If he's skilled enough. Technically spoken this is (or should be) true.
It is just not allways reasonable in the sense of self-defense.

Ok, this is your point of view.
In the aikido wich was taught to me from the very beginning, this is on the contrary a very important aspect of aiki. Not the only one, but a big one.
And is crucial when talking about kihon waza.

Then what do you do, if uke gives you nothing?
Can you only react? How do you take the initiative?
Do you depend on uke or are you free?

This may be true for the "wide/large/big" and "external" movements.
But you can also deal with resistance by a little rotation of the hand, the angle of the elbow, a small movement of your foot and ...
... not changing the external movement i.e. technique, but just using the "internal" structure" of your body, i.e. staying in the same technique but changing things hardly to see.

To me aiki doesn't only mean to "choose" the "right" technique but also choose the "right way" within a certain technique.

You mean, you think you are not able to do so or you don't like to do so?
We practice this way and learn how apply a specific technique no matter what the resistance is. Exactly this is part of our daily practice. It is not all, but part of our training.
Good post, Carsten.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2011, 01:42 AM   #96
Alberto_Italiano
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 296
Offline
Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Kicks, throws/takedowns and groundfighting included or punching only?
Well, I have to manage with what I can find here, and here there is no MMA. So...
Punching only - but there is also a reason for that.

Throws and takedowns may occur occasionally though.

The reason I find punching enough is such that only a guy who has a boxing background may understand it.
Whoever has been there will never forget that.

This is why I suggest that if you want to understand it, and why I say so, one ought to fight with a boxer who has at least 30 official fights under his "belt" - that is the "competent boxer" somebody spoke of in this thread, if I remember right.

No thai boxe guys (your atemi may work on many of them: most are just young men who occasionally spar a couple of minutes) - no karate guys: in my times I sparred for "fun" (fun means we squarely hit each other in the face all the same, but without pursuing cerebral incapacitation) with karate black belts and I never found one who could resist pure boxing.

I think eventually it all boils down to this and only this: you should find an opponent used to receive punches right on his face on nearly a daily basis and used to trade them - for at least one year, say.

Karate guys do not do that in their training routine: they hit fictionally.
You need somebody who is not intimidated in the least by any type of actual punishment - an adversary that will keep pursuing you no matter what.

Apparently, boxing to date provides that type of training as a regular routine more intensively than any other approach.

You won't need Mike Tyson - try to aikido these, within that speed that at times the video shows:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3b-bxejU1U

Aikido will shift instantly from the perfect ideograms we see in gyms to plain ugly - well, at least mine, ok!
It's not you cannot place a technique: it's that it becomes INCREDIBLY difficult to do so, and when you do you scramble.

ps oh, and you do not atemi them - positively!

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 05-13-2011 at 01:48 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2011, 02:26 AM   #97
Alberto_Italiano
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 296
Offline
Re: bad technique vs. resistance

I hope thel following helps to understand why I say I find applying [my lousy...] aikido so difficult.

Boxing normalcy, imagine yoruself in it with only aikido at your hands:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYFYSS1zI_8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRvfC0Os_kM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10cF8emJRU8

ps this type of opponent provides resistance as well.

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 05-13-2011 at 02:30 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2011, 03:11 AM   #98
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
I hope thel following helps to understand why I say I find applying [my lousy...] aikido so difficult.

Boxing normalcy, imagine yoruself in it with only aikido at your hands:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYFYSS1zI_8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRvfC0Os_kM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10cF8emJRU8

ps this type of opponent provides resistance as well.
Hi once again Alberto.

I like your honesty.

Thought I'd give you a few ideas you could work with. First a couple of short stories.

Over 20 years ago now whilst training with my friend (who I've mentioned before was a boxer) I witnessed a scene that made an impression. He had brought his old time boxing friend to Aikido as this guy was having a bit of a rough time in life and we had decided Aikido would help him through it. This guy, a few years before had won the 'aba' championships two years running and then turned professional under a trainer called Mickey Duff. He had six fights undefeated but then got a detatched retina and was medically thereafter 'banned' from boxing.

So there we are a few years later than that training. He boxed actually a bit in the style of Smoking Joe Frazier. Anyway, at the end of the lesson our teacher was talking to him and explaining how all sports have rules and if you understand that you can see which principle or action would defeat or bewilder the opponent.

This led to Dave (the boxer) disagreeing and thus led to a demonstration. The teacher said all he would do is apply MA-AI. After two minutes Dave hadn't connected once and stopped and said it was like it wasn't fair as he wasn't fighting back.

The point here is that firstly applying that one principle (and being very good at it) leads to a condition of no fight. It's outside the 'rules' and believe it or not the boxers comfort zone.

I found this fascinating at the time because then I could see how those boxers like Ali and Nasseem Mohammed (albeit much later) apply that ma-ai principle, with patience, whilst using it to manoever to a position of strength or getting the opponent to move to a position of weakness.

Soon after that experience I was kind of set up in a friends shaolin kung fu school and told to fight the guy who was the senior student. The guy came at me with kicks and punches and all I did was keep ma-ai and 'parry' with tegatana as I was very good at that. In the end the guy just stopped. He looked at his teacher and shrugged his shoulders as if to say 'What should I do?' The teacher smiled and told us to bow out.

I went away a bit confused and in two minds. One was I was happy I had stuck to what I knew of Aikido but the other was I realized I couldn't work out how to enter from such an opponent. Basically, I had more to learn.

As with all types of fighters or situations in life or even business propositions it's a matter of studying the opponent or scene and finding which principles ARE applicable to such rather than how to make the ones you know applicable.

Food for thought?

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2011, 03:39 AM   #99
Alberto_Italiano
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 296
Offline
Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
(...)

Dave hadn't connected once and stopped and said it was like it wasn't fair as he wasn't fighting back.

The point here is that firstly applying that one principle (and being very good at it) leads to a condition of no fight.
(...)

Food for thought?
yes of course. Actually that seems the only viable aikido - no aikido at all, and only maai

(albeit a boxer can get at you anyway - maai exists also in boxing, and it is performed actually within the shortest range which is the most difficult maai to keep because a maai that can afford the long distance is, of course, much easier: bringing here an unfair example, the absolute master of boxing Maai at close quarters was Cassius Clay... lol).

However I am envisioning a situation where I have to fight - limited space to move by, for instance.
I am striving for an aikido that accepts the engagement. This not only makes things very difficult, but it is clearly too ambitious a goal for my bad aikido.

But that's what i want, that's why aikido fascinated me - you see, the idea of accepting close quarters and high dynamism without having the option of hitting back.

If you attempt aikido in that setting (and a Martial Art should find itself comfortable in both settings), it all becomes nearly impossibile to me.

These guys are too fast, they won't let you go lateral because they move with you and keep facing me, and even when I grab an arm, they immediately prove to me they have two and the grabbed arm has a high resistance level, and well the whole is a mess.

It ends up like in Reuben's video - you go for ikkyo (oooh! ikkyo! lol ) if you can, or you do things that can be dubbed "iriminage" but actually are chokes.
And it's no Reuben's fault!

Let me add a small story myself.
About 6 months ago I was in this ki-dojo. I can't remember right now what technique we were trying, however the dan guy could not place it on me.
This not because of any active resistance on my part (I never stay rigid just to prove a point) but simply because I was keeping a natural dinamysm - if you attempt to grab my arm, hey I withdraw it quickly in randori...! It won't stay there to await technique.

We came to a stall and i ended up saying to the guy "ok, don't worry if the technique failed. We're all here to learn. Now, just do something. Do something else. But do something, say: what comes to your mind?"
He said "well, this" - he produced a bear hug, lifted me from the ground and threw me away.

I got up and smiled: "that's quite something - however, when i said do something, I meant: do something that is Aikido"

This means only this: when we face an opponent determined not to please us, many of us, incljuding dans, end up doing things that are not aikido.
Go figure me with my incompetence!
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2011, 04:04 AM   #100
Alberto_Italiano
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 296
Offline
Re: bad technique vs. resistance

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
This means only this: when we face an opponent determined not to please us, many of us, incljuding dans, end up doing things that are not aikido.
Go figure me with my incompetence!
I am trying this type of Aikido because I don't think that it is impossibile.

I only think that our Aikido training routines (so different from the boxing ones) have never been designed to meet these situations.

Probably the apparently endemic amount of aikidokas who could not place any longer a sophisticated technique on a determined opponent, comes entirely by the fact we train within an excessively hypercontrolled routine that has stripped off the combative potential of aikido.

I am looking for the Aikido unknown, maybe, which given my incompetence is a preposterous wishful goal - I know this!

But that's the only Aikido I want, the only aikido that says something to me - and too many dojos instilled in me the sensation that if I follow their routines, after 5 years I may still have learned an unusable aikido perhaps without ever knowing.
Their routines apparently are not designed for the goal of meeting a truly hostile environment.

Thence, there I go fumbling for a training routine of mine and perfectly aware my aikido sucks!
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Correlation of Aikido and Daito-Ryu Waza John Driscoll Columns 28 08-04-2013 06:01 PM
Train of thought Ketsan General 35 12-04-2006 07:13 AM
Poll: How important is physical resistance in your aikido training? AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 23 04-21-2006 04:09 PM
Rank-Aikido (pun intended) senshincenter General 88 11-21-2005 03:55 PM
What are you working on? akiy Training 15 06-29-2000 11:52 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:45 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate