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Old 05-10-2011, 01:28 PM   #51
Aikibu
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Yes Shoji Nishio and others considered these "elements" The Myth of "One Atemi" to the average Aikidoka is just that.... A Myth... Though as one advances in the Aiki Arts One Atemi ( or in the boxer's case the knock out punch) with clear and full intention is enough. The Myth then becomes Reality. I have felt it... and seen it done... and I am open minded and willing to practice hard enough to pursue it... and hopefully express it fully in my practice someday. For now... Maai... Irimi/Atemi and Technique will have to serve as a poor substitute and for those rare times in Randori where I don't think... I just enter... I seem to get by.

"Sincere Heart Through Austere Practice." Shoji Nishio Shihan

William Hazen
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Old 05-10-2011, 05:21 PM   #52
sakumeikan
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Reuben Yap wrote: View Post
Thanks Joe, so you are attacking the elbow joint to execute the throw?

Also this you are cutting the hand as it extends for the punch or prior to it being pulled back to get the control?
Dear Rueben,
The primary objective i Aikido is to avoid being hit.The Irimi /Tenkan motion should if applied correctly put you close to the boxer , but on his dead side.Next thing try and establish control of leading hand , preferably when the motion of the arm is going forward.Difficult to achieve control of an arm/forearm if its retracting.As far as the elbow joint is concerned there must be a direct attack on the joint-if not the guy will barely move/stumble forward .As far as atemi is concerned I would not attack the face -attack in the region of soft tissue rib area.As I said this is not an easy type of opponent to deal with, care must be taken.Apply leverage on elbow /wrist area and drive/use your total body to effect kusushi /kake on Uke. Another point , blend with your opponent,
lead his mind if possible.[I suggest you research articles on subject -Path of an Echo]
cheers, joe
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Old 05-11-2011, 12:23 AM   #53
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Rueben,
The primary objective i Aikido is to avoid being hit.The Irimi /Tenkan motion should if applied correctly put you close to the boxer , but on his dead side.Next thing try and establish control of leading hand , preferably when the motion of the arm is going forward.Difficult to achieve control of an arm/forearm if its retracting.As far as the elbow joint is concerned there must be a direct attack on the joint-if not the guy will barely move/stumble forward .As far as atemi is concerned I would not attack the face -attack in the region of soft tissue rib area.As I said this is not an easy type of opponent to deal with, care must be taken.Apply leverage on elbow /wrist area and drive/use your total body to effect kusushi /kake on Uke. Another point , blend with your opponent,
lead his mind if possible.[I suggest you research articles on subject -Path of an Echo]
cheers, joe
Thanks Joe! Your replies are very insightful and I was hoping I could trouble you with a few more to clarify some things.

I know we can't apply udekimenage in certain situations and these situations often change.

I guess this question is divided into three parts (sorry couldn't be more concise).

Question 1: My question is in what ideal but plausible situation can we apply udekimenage relating to the entry and control?

I am assuming this is from a cross which is closest to how we practice tsuki since a jab is in most cases non-commital and fast. My aiki-solution to jabs is just to parry, or to maintain ma-ai

Would I need to move my body and establish control of the hand before he pulls back his punching arm? I feel that this is only possible if the punch itself is not balanced and slow in retracting or nage has already anticipated the cross.

One of the difficulties is that although there are I times where my timing is good and I can indeed cut the hand before it retracts but the moment he feels the grip, there's an instinct for uke to pull back the hand rather than to overextend it. This happens VERY fast often unconsciously by uke.

Is udekimenage then not the right technique to do and it's better to just do an irimi throw and something else that appears more natural? If so then udekimenage has some use albeit a rather limited role (where a punch is unbalanced and the uke is slow in pulling back).

Question 2: In facing an assailant who does not attack in one swift attack but rather squares off to you before teeing off, what is a valid Aiki strategy?

How I view Aikido against such an assailant is that I should evade or parry (or in Aiki terms, redirect) the the non committal or setup attacks (for e.g. jabs), perhaps throwing in some atemi to create attempts to move in or break the opponent's rhythm and once he does indeed overextend himself then it's time to spring into action (which was my approach in the video).

I understand Aikido is not to be seen as a sparring art, but not all self defense situations are one where the uke is enraged and charging you and throwing wild punches. There are some who may have a little experience in punching and know better than to open with a huge single attack unless it's a sucker punch (I think anyone who has brawled before will know this).

Question 3:The throw itself is actually therefore a direct attack on the elbow joint rather than a true 'throw'?

I often get the stumble forward reaction even when I apply with a deep entering and projection down and forward. Uke says he feels the projection and the power of the projection but feels he can still remain standing.

Is therefore the only way for this to be applied is a very direct attack on the joint and if he resists he then breaks his elbow? (assuming this is not training). Does the leg position of nage have anything to do with assisting with the throw? (see my first post where I ask whether we should use our front leg to act as a sort of a 'trip'.
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Old 05-11-2011, 12:48 AM   #54
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Now people say that Aikido if applied correctly will always be beautiful and that if it isn't executed in a single stroke, you're doing it wrong.

I beg to differ. Aikido is Aikido if the principles are adhered to and the opponent is neutralized without permanent/serious injury (I'm also assuming arm breaks count as a serious injury) then it's Aikido. The techniques are merely a path and an expression of how to do this developing the building blocks for such a method of defending oneself.

I therefore present to you Koichi Tohei's video of him dealing with a person with little knowledge of Aikido. Of course you can see both participants are holding back. Herman (the big guy) isn't really charging him full on but just resisting the technique while Tohei isn't also being an ass.

The results are as follows:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvJ3bI-VyDg

Also read this article.

Does this shake my belief in the idealized form of Aikido? Yes.

Does this mean that Aikido is useless? Far from it, I thought it was a good demonstration of an understanding of balance and movement could be used to neutralize a larger person without harming him.

If we accept Aikido as not having to be beautiful but techniques to be seen as the 'perfect' idealized forms which we can aspire to but not necessarily pull off in a random true conflict situation, it becomes much more easier to accept Aikido as a martial art.

Reminds me a bit of Plato who postulated that below the world of apparent change is a world of timeless unchanging essences which are templates for ordinary objects on earth, for example, that for each actual horse there exists somewhere a perfect ‘Horse Form' of which real horses are but imperfect imitations.

We may never achieve the 'ideal' horse but we can compare our horses whether it's closer or further from this ideal. I think this is a useful way of viewing Aikido techniques.

We aim for the ideal knowing that it may be impossible to reach, but when we fail to reach it, we should not dismiss the entire idea as unworkable. A horse is still a horse however imperfect it is as long as it meets the basic parameters of what a horse is.

Similarly the same goes with Aikido?

Just my 2 cents.
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Old 05-11-2011, 03:07 AM   #55
Michael Varin
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Reuben,

I like your attitude.

And anyone who reposts the infamous Herman vs. Tohei video gets major respect from me. The attempts to excuse Tohei's blatant lack of skills in that video always make me chuckle. To Tohei's credit I will acknowledge that he was working against a significant weight advantage.

I will second what Demetrio said earlier. You cannot put a square peg into a round hole... At least not with great difficulty and damage to the pieces involved.

You have to look at the context from which these techniques came. Then you will start to see the problems for which they were devised to solve.

A boxer's 1-2 combo is not of much concern to a man armed with a sword. In fact, I would say that unless you knock him out with one punch, it was an insane way to attack.

Even against a knife a boxer is over matched and will likely lose a battle of attrition.

These techniques came from a time when the men who used them always carried weapons and wanted to use those weapons as their primary tools of attack and defense.

Squaring up to throw punches or grapple with such an opponent just doesn't fit into the equation.

What types of scenarios would likely be of great concern to a swordsman? Fighting other armed opponents? Fighting multiple opponents? Fighting someone who is unarmed but is attempting to impede your use of your weapon?

The answer is right there.

Look at the evasions or blends in aikido. As demonstrated in your video they do not make much sense against a boxer. Their risk is much greater than their reward. As far as Joe's advice goes, it's simply unrealistic... It will only happen by chance. And there are many more higher percentage and more appropriate techniques available for that situation.

Now, picture an attack with a weapon. Do the blends suddenly become easier? No! But do they make infinitely more sense? Yes. And you will find that the risk versus reward is now more balanced. If you approach weapons defense with a boxers mentality and use the defenses taught in boxing, you are sure to be a dead man. If you use the blends seen in aikido you may have a chance to survive.

To be effective there is still much work to do, but if you are not able to understand the context of your martial art there will be no end to the confusion and frustration.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 05-11-2011, 04:44 AM   #56
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
You have to look at the context from which these techniques came. Then you will start to see the problems for which they were devised to solve.
In this sense, I suggest to look into european medieval-renaissance martial arts manuals. There you can see lots of aikido looking techniques for defending against sword or dagger wielding attackers.

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Old 05-11-2011, 06:49 AM   #57
Marc Abrams
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Reuben,

I like your attitude.

And anyone who reposts the infamous Herman vs. Tohei video gets major respect from me. The attempts to excuse Tohei's blatant lack of skills in that video always make me chuckle. To Tohei's credit I will acknowledge that he was working against a significant weight advantage.
Michael:

On what basis have you concluded that Tohei Sensei had a blatant lack of skills? I suppose you have some first hand knowledge of that? Maybe you would like to talk about some of the senior deshi of O'Sensei who thought that way as well and told you so? Maybe you have some first hand accounts from some of the well-respected martial artists of that time who made their way through that dojo? Maybe you are just blowing smoke from where the sun don't shine?

As to the discussion at hand, if you are genuinely connected to the attacker, the attack will dictate the technique. The other way around is just hypothetical talk......

Marc Abrams
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Old 05-11-2011, 07:09 AM   #58
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Reuben,

I like your attitude.

And anyone who reposts the infamous Herman vs. Tohei video gets major respect from me. The attempts to excuse Tohei's blatant lack of skills in that video always make me chuckle. To Tohei's credit I will acknowledge that he was working against a significant weight advantage.

I will second what Demetrio said earlier. You cannot put a square peg into a round hole... At least not with great difficulty and damage to the pieces involved.

You have to look at the context from which these techniques came. Then you will start to see the problems for which they were devised to solve.

A boxer's 1-2 combo is not of much concern to a man armed with a sword. In fact, I would say that unless you knock him out with one punch, it was an insane way to attack.

Even against a knife a boxer is over matched and will likely lose a battle of attrition.

These techniques came from a time when the men who used them always carried weapons and wanted to use those weapons as their primary tools of attack and defense.

Squaring up to throw punches or grapple with such an opponent just doesn't fit into the equation.

What types of scenarios would likely be of great concern to a swordsman? Fighting other armed opponents? Fighting multiple opponents? Fighting someone who is unarmed but is attempting to impede your use of your weapon?

The answer is right there.

Look at the evasions or blends in aikido. As demonstrated in your video they do not make much sense against a boxer. Their risk is much greater than their reward. As far as Joe's advice goes, it's simply unrealistic... It will only happen by chance. And there are many more higher percentage and more appropriate techniques available for that situation.

Now, picture an attack with a weapon. Do the blends suddenly become easier? No! But do they make infinitely more sense? Yes. And you will find that the risk versus reward is now more balanced. If you approach weapons defense with a boxers mentality and use the defenses taught in boxing, you are sure to be a dead man. If you use the blends seen in aikido you may have a chance to survive.

To be effective there is still much work to do, but if you are not able to understand the context of your martial art there will be no end to the confusion and frustration.
Dear Michael,
Please note we are being asked how to apply a specific waza [Ude Kime Nage ] to a boxer.I would not personally choose this waza to handle this situation.Having said that I stated that entering into and getting on the opponents dead side[I assume you know where that is[not being condecending] you shorten the distance obviously and you are or should be close to your uke.
This enables you to initiate various waza[if you enter deeply ] eg choke waza is possible.Chance does not come into the equation.
You either get hit or you dont. Same with weapons.
Regarding the Tohei /Herman incident I believe Tohei Sensei was set limitations on what he could do.In a separate challenge match with one of two large brothers who engaged Tohei Sensei in a challenge match Tohei Sensei pinned the opponent .The other brother declined an invitation to try his luck.
Thanks for your constructive criticism , Cheers, Joe.
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Old 05-11-2011, 07:28 AM   #59
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Reuben Yap wrote: View Post
Thanks Joe! Your replies are very insightful and I was hoping I could trouble you with a few more to clarify some things.

I know we can't apply udekimenage in certain situations and these situations often change.

I guess this question is divided into three parts (sorry couldn't be more concise).

Question 1: My question is in what ideal but plausible situation can we apply udekimenage relating to the entry and control?

I am assuming this is from a cross which is closest to how we practice tsuki since a jab is in most cases non-commital and fast. My aiki-solution to jabs is just to parry, or to maintain ma-ai

Would I need to move my body and establish control of the hand before he pulls back his punching arm? I feel that this is only possible if the punch itself is not balanced and slow in retracting or nage has already anticipated the cross.

One of the difficulties is that although there are I times where my timing is good and I can indeed cut the hand before it retracts but the moment he feels the grip, there's an instinct for uke to pull back the hand rather than to overextend it. This happens VERY fast often unconsciously by uke.

Is udekimenage then not the right technique to do and it's better to just do an irimi throw and something else that appears more natural? If so then udekimenage has some use albeit a rather limited role (where a punch is unbalanced and the uke is slow in pulling back).

Question 2: In facing an assailant who does not attack in one swift attack but rather squares off to you before teeing off, what is a valid Aiki strategy?

How I view Aikido against such an assailant is that I should evade or parry (or in Aiki terms, redirect) the the non committal or setup attacks (for e.g. jabs), perhaps throwing in some atemi to create attempts to move in or break the opponent's rhythm and once he does indeed overextend himself then it's time to spring into action (which was my approach in the video).

I understand Aikido is not to be seen as a sparring art, but not all self defense situations are one where the uke is enraged and charging you and throwing wild punches. There are some who may have a little experience in punching and know better than to open with a huge single attack unless it's a sucker punch (I think anyone who has brawled before will know this).

Question 3:The throw itself is actually therefore a direct attack on the elbow joint rather than a true 'throw'?

I often get the stumble forward reaction even when I apply with a deep entering and projection down and forward. Uke says he feels the projection and the power of the projection but feels he can still remain standing.

Is therefore the only way for this to be applied is a very direct attack on the joint and if he resists he then breaks his elbow? (assuming this is not training). Does the leg position of nage have anything to do with assisting with the throw? (see my first post where I ask whether we should use our front leg to act as a sort of a 'trip'.
Dear Rueben,
To make a stab at your question[not in numerical order]
Question Two;
If the opponent just squares up and does not launch an attack -do nothing.Keep calm /alert and respond to his movement
as and when he launches the attack.If you see a gap in Ukes
armour, do whatever it takes to exploit this gap.Aikido waza can be anything you choose to use.
Question Three
Ideally the whole body is involved in Aikido, be it throwing /pinning waza.Ude kime Nage because there is a potential to
damage the elbow joint, if it is required to take extreme measures so be it.
QuestionOne,
You have to assess the situation.It depends on the speed /angle and trajectory of the punch.If Uke is powerful, neutralises him by absorbing the attack [draw him out [Ushiro Tenkan -then enter and complete Ude Kime Nage ].If attack is not too positive ,
enter in direct[as I indicated last blog ]and throw the guy.
Basically you have two options 1.You either shorten the distance between you both .2. You make the partner overextend
his reach.As one of our other contributors stated Ukes actions determines your responses.
Cheers Joe.
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Old 05-11-2011, 08:01 AM   #60
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Question Two;
If the opponent just squares up and does not launch an attack -do nothing.Keep calm /alert and respond to his movement
as and when he launches the attack.If you see a gap in Ukes
armour, do whatever it takes to exploit this gap.Aikido waza can be anything you choose to use.
Hi Joe,

Another option in this case is taking the initiative instead of waiting for him/her to attack.

Cheers.

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Old 05-11-2011, 08:04 AM   #61
Dazzler
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Hi Joe,

Another option in this case is taking the initiative instead of waiting for him/her to attack.

Cheers.
With attack being best form of defence that is very true.

Just check for cameras first.
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Old 05-11-2011, 08:09 AM   #62
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

I had (and still have) lots o' trouble with ude kime nage. I believe that our current ude kime nage (and other kokyu nage throws such as kaiten nage) were altered by O'Sensei and subsequent shihan to be more safe to practice. Largely, my proof of these altered techniques lies in the outward expression of ukemi. That is, we do not direct our opponent into the ground [as directly]; we throw our opponent away with a clear path of ukemi. I believe this altered ending is inconsistent with some of the older jujitsu arts where nage focused tori's energy into the ground. In Judo we call this "dashing" and the reference is to place tori's shoulders close to your feet.

The several references to a Judo-like application of this technique often put back into the technique the "dashing" component. The arm bar holds uke close to nage; both a foot sweep that removes the balance structure and the top-heavy shoulder pressure drives uke into the ground. If uke avoids the foot sweep and escapes he leaves beyond a balance void (shikaku) from the extra step. I think ude kime nage in aikido is representative of these principles without the danger of the fall. Try any of the related Judo applications and I think you get a different result, compliant uke or not. But that's not aikido, right?

To get more technical, I think a big part that we miss is the irrimi component of the throw. When I thought about ude kime nage as a throw I always entered too shallow. I am moving to get behind my attacker, then turning to deliver my counter-attack. My partner needs to feel my energy/intent behind her and recognize the inherent danger in my position. She should be abandoning her position in conjunction with me applying pressure, the result is her balance broken forward. The irrimi is the cause of kuzushi and why I am able to move through her shoulder without opposition. Also, I think we sometimes move our inside leg too soon. when I enter, I move with a tenkai but I do not step through the throw until I have started her movement. If I move my leg through the throw too soon I find that I give her a balance structure and lose kuzushi.

My opinion on ude kime nage is that it was modified and you need a little work to get back some of the functioning jutsu. I do not think that is a bad thing but it does mean you need to be sensitive to the potential of what nage could be doing to you. I turned to judo to find some of the functional aspects of ude kime nage and there is no shortage of techniques that clinch tori's arm while removing the lower balance structure - they just don't give tori a nice projected exist strategy.
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Old 05-11-2011, 08:10 AM   #63
Maarten De Queecker
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Reuben,

I like your attitude.

And anyone who reposts the infamous Herman vs. Tohei video gets major respect from me. The attempts to excuse Tohei's blatant lack of skills in that video always make me chuckle. To Tohei's credit I will acknowledge that he was working against a significant weight advantage.

I will second what Demetrio said earlier. You cannot put a square peg into a round hole... At least not with great difficulty and damage to the pieces involved.

You have to look at the context from which these techniques came. Then you will start to see the problems for which they were devised to solve.

A boxer's 1-2 combo is not of much concern to a man armed with a sword. In fact, I would say that unless you knock him out with one punch, it was an insane way to attack.

Even against a knife a boxer is over matched and will likely lose a battle of attrition.

These techniques came from a time when the men who used them always carried weapons and wanted to use those weapons as their primary tools of attack and defense.

Squaring up to throw punches or grapple with such an opponent just doesn't fit into the equation.

What types of scenarios would likely be of great concern to a swordsman? Fighting other armed opponents? Fighting multiple opponents? Fighting someone who is unarmed but is attempting to impede your use of your weapon?

The answer is right there.

Look at the evasions or blends in aikido. As demonstrated in your video they do not make much sense against a boxer. Their risk is much greater than their reward. As far as Joe's advice goes, it's simply unrealistic... It will only happen by chance. And there are many more higher percentage and more appropriate techniques available for that situation.

Now, picture an attack with a weapon. Do the blends suddenly become easier? No! But do they make infinitely more sense? Yes. And you will find that the risk versus reward is now more balanced. If you approach weapons defense with a boxers mentality and use the defenses taught in boxing, you are sure to be a dead man. If you use the blends seen in aikido you may have a chance to survive.

To be effective there is still much work to do, but if you are not able to understand the context of your martial art there will be no end to the confusion and frustration.
This post should get a place in some kind of hall of fame...
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Old 05-11-2011, 08:52 AM   #64
Andy Kazama
 
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_718dOW09k
Shinya Aoki @ 2 mins. Obviously, this is VERY Jitsu/applied, but if you watch the fight up to this point I think there are a couple of useful points, including the use of the leg trips (ouchi gari) to set this up and get "uke's" hips back, creating the opportunity for kazushi - likely key to making this technique work both in/outside the dojo.
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Old 05-11-2011, 09:16 AM   #65
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote: View Post
With attack being best form of defence that is very true.

Just check for cameras first.
As long as the attack is "inminent" I'm legally covered here.

Ed.

Have you seen Iaido episode of "Samurai Spirit"?

This part is very interesting, imho. Starting at 8:19

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 05-11-2011 at 09:21 AM.

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Old 05-11-2011, 11:48 AM   #66
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Hi Joe,

Another option in this case is taking the initiative instead of waiting for him/her to attack.

Cheers.
Dear Demetrio,
Yes indeed!! I was working on the pricincple that Uke made the first move.As you say you dont have to wait, but Uke Kme Nage would not be my first choice -perhaps an handy bar stool/3 by 2 chunk of seasoned timber over the brainbox of the assailant might be a better and more reliable option[and no need to study for years /decades to acquire such basic skills].
Cheers, Joe.
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Old 05-11-2011, 08:48 PM   #67
Reuben
 
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Thank you for the responses. I would have to go through them later in the day when I have more time but am happy to see healthy discussion here!

I just thought that I'll chip in here what I tried in my dojo yesterday night.

One of our seniors showed me that udekimenage executed in such a way that really propels you forward despite the attempt to post.

What we did was the following:
a) Uke is offbalanced to the side (he's slightly leaning off where his extended hand is). I knew this but it was the 2nd bit that really made the difference

b) A twist in the extended hand has to be be applied firmly (if you're nage, you are twisting the hand TOWARDS YOU, almost but not exactly like a motorcycle rev I suppose). This helps greatly in twisting the opponent's body into a more off-balanced position and generates a bit of 'lift' where the uke feels like he has to tiptoe a bit (similar to the action on the wrist on a shihonage entry). I felt that the twist and lift were key in off-balancing the uke in two more different axises.

c) Then drive forward and down with the shoulder (of course using your whole body weight) against the upper arm just above the elbow. Uke's arm should be brought close to you while you do this so that nage's full weight is felt into the throw and not just an attack on the elbow.

Even from a static position and WITHOUT the leg post (though I suppose no harm to implement it as well), uke is flung to the ground and attempts to post made him almost eat his own knee. Uke was significantly larger than me but for the sake of practice and theory we started from the offbalanced position and then he resisted.

One of my main problems was that my wrists are comparatively small and frail in comparison to my size so having the required wrist strength to achieve this twist was difficult especially against people with big or strong wrists. Having strong wrists you have to admit helps a great deal both in taking techniques and also applying techniques. Indeed in Aikido we have exercises to strengthen the wrist so I guess time to do more of those :P

Just to clarify that the 'boxer thing' is a separate issue from the 'udekimenage' question. It just developed and somehow got merged until I myself got confused as to what my question was Until Demetrio and Joe's discussion I was not asking how to apply udekimenage to a boxer's punches.

The main question is: How to apply udekimenage against resistance where many ppl have contributed here and I believe I might have found the answer as above.

The second question which branched off (and then unwittingly merged) was: When facing someone who punches reasonably well (i'm not even talking about a trained boxer which Aikido is not designed to deal with and I GET THAT (lol so please don't say square peg round hole thing) ) but perhaps your average Joe who knows how to throw a one-two what kind of strategies and techniques are effective. I posted what I felt worked for me (and a video albeit a poor example of it) but wanted your thoughts. You have to admit that in a 'real life' unarmed situation, punches are by far the MOST common and they aren't of the sort that we practice in dojos.

So let's separate the two questions now since it is clear that udekimenage ISN'T an ideal technique for one-twos or balanced strikers.

I can say this having got into several altercations myself from idiots who just wish to pick a fight (for e.g. jealous ex boyfriends or guys in clubs trying to show their stuff). In those situations, no beautiful Aikido technique flowed unfortunately but just a step off the attack, followed by a punch to their face which was in my EXTREMELY FORTUNATE cases sufficient in flooring them before I quickly left the scene.

An interesting story which I wish to share, one of these guys even had the cheek (after I had floored him), to ask me to give him a free punch back since I had 'punched him first' (he attacked first but I made contact first) and grabbed my belongings (my Blackberry with all my contacts and business e-mails) refusing to let me leave. After about 5 minutes of trying to get my stuff back through negotiation or quick snatches, I unfortunately just lost it, high mounted him and then threatened to end him after which I think he was shocked at my change of demeanor and started shivering maybe in fear or god knows what.

I grabbed my phone then left but I was not proud of myself that day as I knew that if he had attempted to punch me while I was in mount, I would have just gone berserk since I was so close to the breaking point. Would have been nice to get him in some nice Aiki lock and then retrieve my Blackberry rather than losing it that day but looking back I really wouldn't know how else to have dealt with it.

Last edited by Reuben : 05-11-2011 at 08:56 PM.
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Old 05-12-2011, 03:03 AM   #68
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Reuben Yap wrote: View Post
Could you share how you do it?
Hm, no specific "tricks". Very "normal".

Not breaking ukes elbow but locking it (compare hiji kime osae), so bringing strain (?) to his arm and by this creating a connection to ukes center.
Throwing in the direction of uke, not forward.
I emphasize very much on the rotation of toris arm which lies under ukes elbow. This seems most important to me.

No leg sweeping or something like that. Not hitting ukes elbow.
Just "normal" waza.

I just found this video. (But it's a little bit "show".)

Last edited by Carsten Möllering : 05-12-2011 at 03:06 AM.
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Old 05-12-2011, 05:14 AM   #69
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Have anyone found a video of Ude kime nage performed on a resisting (I mean fighting back) opponent?

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Old 05-12-2011, 06:13 AM   #70
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Hm, no specific "tricks". Very "normal".

Not breaking ukes elbow but locking it (compare hiji kime osae), so bringing strain (?) to his arm and by this creating a connection to ukes center.
Throwing in the direction of uke, not forward.
I emphasize very much on the rotation of toris arm which lies under ukes elbow. This seems most important to me.

No leg sweeping or something like that. Not hitting ukes elbow.
Just "normal" waza.

I just found this video. (But it's a little bit "show".)
Dear Carsten,
In each of the points you make I would generally agree on .These are fine in a dojo, but within the context of the original post I think you might have to modify the waza to suit the uncompromising Uke.
Cheers, Joe.
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Old 05-12-2011, 07:08 AM   #71
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
... .These are fine in a dojo, but within the context of the original post I think you might have to modify the waza to suit the uncompromising Uke.
Yes, maybe true. I practiced with non aikidoka but only in dojo or gyms.
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Old 05-12-2011, 09:32 AM   #72
Amir Krause
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

udekimenage

At least the way |I learn Aikido, the techmnique should be able to break the arm, the combination of good Ukemi with the break possiblity, leads to a throw as Uke tries to escape your technique.

The break is oriented slightly up, so Uke will raise himself to escape, and would not be able to evade the technique with a single step.

This is not a simple technique, it takes lots of training in order to create force with varying vectors against his arm while only touching it at your elbow, without a grab.

As for the boxing Video
Very nice and couragious try, but you are missing the most important thing - you keep staying out of distance. As the puncher closes the distance, you must not retreat, rather you have to advance and get to his side, at which point you will find may opportunities stating to arise, in order to really get those chances, you should create Kuzushi and not by a grab&pull of Uke rather by understanding the center and positioning yourself accordingly.
The latter is not simple, and takes lot and lots of practice with slow punches, getting faster and more sophisticated as you progress.

Amir

Last edited by Amir Krause : 05-12-2011 at 09:35 AM.
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Old 05-12-2011, 12:33 PM   #73
Aikibu
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
udekimenage

At least the way |I learn Aikido, the techmnique should be able to break the arm, the combination of good Ukemi with the break possiblity, leads to a throw as Uke tries to escape your technique.

The break is oriented slightly up, so Uke will raise himself to escape, and would not be able to evade the technique with a single step.

This is not a simple technique, it takes lots of training in order to create force with varying vectors against his arm while only touching it at your elbow, without a grab.

As for the boxing Video
Very nice and couragious try, but you are missing the most important thing - you keep staying out of distance. As the puncher closes the distance, you must not retreat, rather you have to advance and get to his side, at which point you will find may opportunities stating to arise, in order to really get those chances, you should create Kuzushi and not by a grab&pull of Uke rather by understanding the center and positioning yourself accordingly.
The latter is not simple, and takes lot and lots of practice with slow punches, getting faster and more sophisticated as you progress.

Amir
What Amir said...Thank You.
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Old 05-12-2011, 11:43 PM   #74
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
udekimenage

At least the way |I learn Aikido, the techmnique should be able to break the arm, the combination of good Ukemi with the break possiblity, leads to a throw as Uke tries to escape your technique.

The break is oriented slightly up, so Uke will raise himself to escape, and would not be able to evade the technique with a single step.

This is not a simple technique, it takes lots of training in order to create force with varying vectors against his arm while only touching it at your elbow, without a grab.

As for the boxing Video
Very nice and couragious try, but you are missing the most important thing - you keep staying out of distance. As the puncher closes the distance, you must not retreat, rather you have to advance and get to his side, at which point you will find may opportunities stating to arise, in order to really get those chances, you should create Kuzushi and not by a grab&pull of Uke rather by understanding the center and positioning yourself accordingly.
The latter is not simple, and takes lot and lots of practice with slow punches, getting faster and more sophisticated as you progress.

Amir
Interesting! Thanks for your thoughts!
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Old 05-13-2011, 02:24 AM   #75
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
The break is oriented slightly up, so Uke will raise himself to escape, and would not be able to evade the technique with a single step.
yes

Quote:
This is not a simple technique, it takes lots of training in order to create force with varying vectors against his arm while only touching it at your elbow, without a grab.
exactly
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