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Old 05-10-2011, 04:13 AM   #26
Aikibu
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

How can you execute udekimenage with "resistance" without Atemi?

I understand resistance to mean your Uke has their center. If that's the case... No technique will work very well.

William Hazen
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Old 05-10-2011, 04:21 AM   #27
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Excuse me for being cheeky, but given the video Reuben posted...
Yeah let's trade atemis for punches, and let's see who loses focus first.

This in case Reuben wants also to put udekimenage in the context of his video - if not so, of course, one may also atemi.
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Old 05-10-2011, 04:22 AM   #28
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

@Alberto:

I think only a subset of Aikido techniques work against fast strikes. The simpler the technique, the easier it is to pull off and I think even in randoori, you seldom see the long executed techniques since it takes too long to pull off.

Perhaps just perhaps the other techniques serve to develop an understanding of Aikido principles and repertoire to apply in a wide variety of situations since punches as common as they are, are a subset of the attacks that an opponent can attack with.

Techniques that I find myself using often in such circumstances:

This also can easily lead to those elbow locks and controls which are pretty effective Hiji-jime if I'm not mistaken. Of course if I'm fancy, can always turn it into nikyo etc etc.

Irimi-nage i have to my surprise found to be quite effective in many situations albeit in slightly modified forms.

Simple kokyu throws where I just over extend the person are also common especially from hook strikes. Or a sudden direct entering body movement to close the distance as he tries to close the distance as well to move into a kokyu throw.

Techniques in which are difficult to perform in my experience against fast punching combos:

Kote-gaeshi unless you have really overextended him which is hard against a fast striking opponent. People with strong wrists will not go if they are still more or less balanced. I find it hard to prove these to ppl as my own wrists are very thin and susceptible to kote-gaeshi even from a stationary position.

Shihonage: Although I have to say I feel that my shihonage speed is above average, it is difficult to get into that position from a strike. Better for holds and not against a fully

Kaiten-nage: I only find that i get myself in this situation after some clinch work not directly. Shomen unarmed strikes in real attacks are rare.

and of course udekimenage...
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Old 05-10-2011, 04:23 AM   #29
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
How can you execute udekimenage with "resistance" without Atemi?

I understand resistance to mean your Uke has their center. If that's the case... No technique will work very well.

William Hazen
Balance has already been broken through leading. Uke's balance is already brought off his center towards me and it is possible for me to just drag further off into that direction and perhaps bring him to the ground albeit in an ugly fashion.

Resistance is only that he doesn't roll. He just tries to stay on his two feet after the throw without rolling.

As for losing focus under fire this is something that can be trained through repeated stress innoculation (push to the point where you're just about to crumble and then slowly improve on this) which will greatly reduce the flinching (though I'm not sure in an Aikido dojo). In our imperfect state, we have to realize and accept that we may get hit and learn to quickly recenter our minds to the matter at hand.

Last edited by Reuben : 05-10-2011 at 04:29 AM.
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Old 05-10-2011, 04:28 AM   #30
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Reuben - since you're open to this type of experiments, and I find it immensely commendable: make him wear 12 ounces boxing gloves. 12, not 10 ounces. They're quite safe. (and theorically you can nikkyo also a hand in gloves - for what matters is the wrist)
You wear a boxing face protection and mouth (teeth) protection.

Be sure you have plenty of space around and no objects you might fall upon and hurt yourself.

Then, unless you are aware of medical conditions impeding that, allow him to land his blows as he would to a real foe, with the provision he avoids your nose possibly.

Plan 2 rounds - 6 minutes.

Try to apply only and exclusively aikido - not even chokes.

Then let me know! Thank you!

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 05-10-2011 at 04:30 AM.
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Old 05-10-2011, 04:29 AM   #31
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
It depends on the fact it will never work.

It's a technique that should flow out of your hands in a situation where it seems the spontaneous and suitable thing to do.
This is correct and also the base of aikido. You don't do a technique, you flow into one.

"Oh yeah, now I can do this, and this situation lends itself perfectly for that..."

You act to what's given to you. Never try to force a technique, it won't work. Bend and adapt.
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Old 05-10-2011, 04:33 AM   #32
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
Reuben - since you're open to this type of experiments, and I find it immensely commendable: make him wear 12 ounces boxing gloves. 12, not 10 ounces. They're quite safe. (and theorically you can nikkyo also a hand in gloves - for what matters is the wrist)
You wear a boxing face protection and mouth (teeth) protection.

Be sure you have plenty of space around and no objects you might fall upon and hurt yourself.

Then, unless you are aware of medical conditions impeding that, allow him to land his blows as he would to a real foe, with the provision he avoids your nose possibly.

Plan 2 rounds - 6 minutes.

Try to apply only and exclusively aikido - not even chokes.

Then let me know! Thank you!
I'll try this though I think 6 minutes is really pushing it given how intense it all is :P I also actually think the boxing gloves is a handicap for me since it is hard to capture the boxing gloves if i want to apply any sort of wrist throw/lock.

Also Fight science interestingly showed that wearing bigger ounce gloves doesn't really mean more protection. Seemed to deliver the same impact if perhaps on a marginally larger surface area.
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Old 05-10-2011, 04:35 AM   #33
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Maarten De Queecker wrote: View Post
This is correct and also the base of aikido. You don't do a technique, you flow into one.

"Oh yeah, now I can do this, and this situation lends itself perfectly for that..."

You act to what's given to you. Never try to force a technique, it won't work. Bend and adapt.
I don't doubt the truth of this.

What I felt was even when I was in an ideal situation to do this throw, as long as he posted his leg, it really didn't do much although there was
a) an uke that is offbalance
b) a projection that used his momentum and did project him a few feet away

the key thing is that he was not obliged to roll and he could quickly come back at me. There was no throw.

Even where the uke was compliant and let himself be taken off balance with the only instruction was NOT to roll, he managed to still stay on his two feet.

Last edited by Reuben : 05-10-2011 at 04:37 AM.
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Old 05-10-2011, 04:38 AM   #34
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Reuben Yap wrote: View Post
I'll try this though I think 6 minutes is really pushing it given how intense it all is :P I also actually think the boxing gloves is a handicap for me since it is hard to capture the boxing gloves if i want to apply any sort of wrist throw/lock.

Also Fight science interestingly showed that wearing bigger ounce gloves doesn't really mean more protection. Seemed to deliver the same impact if perhaps on a marginally larger surface area.
We need to think of safety - he has to wear the gloves. You won't place a sankyo with them on, but your theorical repertoire remains nonetheless mostly intact.

I am referring to the 12 ounces because normally you find either 10 or 12 - the more protection I can grant you as I suggest such an idea, the better - even if marginal.

6 Minutes are normally broken in 2 rounds with a 1 minute pause between them.

Keep in mind that normally amateur boxers fight on the 3 rounds distance (pro on the 12).
2 rounds seem fine - let's do aikido under fatigue and actual blows that carry no compliments.

It's gonna be a fantastic experience - sobering, but also beautiful in its own way.

Thank you again for your video - I really loved it, and exactly because techniques were messy.

ps consider you have space to dance around - some real situations may not afford that - unless you may get an actual ring which seems a good compromise between little space and a whole room.
I am referring to these things because they are consolidated sportive standards when it comes to actually hit.

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 05-10-2011 at 04:46 AM.
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Old 05-10-2011, 04:43 AM   #35
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Ah i thought u meant 2 rounds of 6 minutes each :P

Yeah two 3 minutes round is standard lol.
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Old 05-10-2011, 04:51 AM   #36
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

@ Reuben
ps ask your medical doctor too first, absolutely. Maybe he is aware of some condition that you're not, and which should prevent it.

Be extra safe, Reuben, if you decide to do it. Consult your doctor too. If he says no, means no.

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 05-10-2011 at 04:54 AM.
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Old 05-10-2011, 05:00 AM   #37
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

On a separate but related tangent:

Stefan Stenudd has posted an excellent chart on the varying difficulties he feels with techniques on a variety of attacks:

http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/aikido...hiwaza-mae.htm
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Old 05-10-2011, 05:13 AM   #38
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

No such a thing without your medical doctor clearing. It's not an option.
I understand that people spar in gyms everyday, but they do have a medical clearing for that specificity. I had it, they have it.

You too.
If you do it, either you do it right or you won't do it.

Without it, you can keep doing as you do now only.
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Old 05-10-2011, 05:16 AM   #39
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

No worries I will get that approval although I spar in a MMA gym three times a week for about 2 years so most likely if I had any problems I would be dead by now :/ That said no harm being prudent.

The Stefan Stenudd post was unrelated to ur medical thing.
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Old 05-10-2011, 05:20 AM   #40
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
No such a thing without your medical doctor clearing. It's not an option.
I understand that people spar in gyms everyday, but they do have a medical clearing for that specificity. I had it, they have it.

You too.
If you do it, either you do it right or you won't do it.

Without it, you can keep doing as you do now only.
I know it wasn't related.
Do check with your doc first.

We are guys who either do things right or we don't. You're one of this pack, so you will do it either right, or nothing.

Your doc express clearing - mandatory.
In case you had it, you may explain to him you had one clearing already (if you had it for MMA) - he will decide if it applies, or provide or deny a new one.

ciao
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Old 05-10-2011, 06:21 AM   #41
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Reuben Yap wrote: View Post
Techniques in which are difficult to perform in my experience against fast punching combos:

Kote-gaeshi unless you have really overextended him which is hard against a fast striking opponent. People with strong wrists will not go if they are still more or less balanced. I find it hard to prove these to ppl as my own wrists are very thin and susceptible to kote-gaeshi even from a stationary position.

Shihonage: Although I have to say I feel that my shihonage speed is above average, it is difficult to get into that position from a strike. Better for holds and not against a fully

Kaiten-nage: I only find that i get myself in this situation after some clinch work not directly. Shomen unarmed strikes in real attacks are rare.

and of course udekimenage...
I think you are trying to put a square peg in a round hole. These techniques are not designed for dealing with boxing style combos.

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Old 05-10-2011, 06:49 AM   #42
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

yup im not saying those techniques don't work. they just don't work in these particular set of circumstances. don't get me wrong.
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Old 05-10-2011, 07:06 AM   #43
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
You know Reuben - we all noticed this thing in Aikido. Of course, we try not to be too vocal about it, also because if we do, we immediately find plenty of guys who explain to us that:
1) it is not so
2) it is for demonstration purposes
3) aikido is too dangerosu - it's lethal, and if you're not extremely careful, who knos what could happen
4) aikido may maim you: if an ikkyo is done in the right way, your arm would end up being on the mat, tore apart
5) oh, it is for demonstration purposes
6) and, last but not least, did I mention it is for demonstration purposes?

What I am saying is: you're right, too many techniques, placed outside of the hypercontrolled setting of many dojos, would miserably fail, and the gap we may discover comparing those videos with what we might witness, instead, with an aikidoka taking real hyperhostile (and no longer hypercontrolled) enemy fire, spreads so vast a gulf that it is seemingly unbridgeable.

However, the idea behind Aikido is so fascinating, that I pursue it.
I pursue it also if dojos at times make me fill sick with their too fictional approach.
I will never be a good aikidoka - this because of my own incompetence and my own quirks, and also because I refuse of considering myself good or bad after the standards of how I can place a ude kime nage on an uke who will do his best to fall down if I sing gingle bell too loud.

But Aikido is beautiful.
And if you can place one of its techniques (I know it's a big if), game over: fight concluded.
How much punishment you took in the meanwhile is open to speculation, of course.

But Aikido is beautiful.
The challenges it poses when you decide you want to make it work against a real situation are fascinating.
And if by chance you manage to land a technique - bingo!

And, perhaps, dojos don't suffice.

develop your aikido too - in that case, drop on his arm and show him the floor. Or don't ever use that technique in a real situation (oh, and don't ever use iriminage too in a real situation)

I don't know.
Alberto,
The reasons why some Aikido doesnt work is that in many cases the aikido being practised by some people is akin to Fred and Ginger
sashaying to the strains of Cheek To Cheek.As far as Udekime nage is concerned if you focus on Ukes elbow joint and attack it in a positive manner Uke will soon be moveable.Cheers, Joe.
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Old 05-10-2011, 07:19 AM   #44
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
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As far as Udekime nage is concerned if you focus on Ukes elbow joint and attack it in a positive manner Uke will soon be moveable.Cheers, Joe.
I agree but I think Reuben's problem is in the setting of the technique. Ude kime nage in a clinch/grappling situation is not especially difficult, against boxing strikes is another story.

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Old 05-10-2011, 10:22 AM   #45
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I agree but I think Reuben's problem is in the setting of the technique. Ude kime nage in a clinch/grappling situation is not especially difficult, against boxing strikes is another story.
Dear Demetrio,
How so?If the boxer punches for example a right hander to the face /body, MOVE TO DEAD SIDE{ [by irimi /tenkan ]-EVASION.Control wrist /forearm of attacker FIRMLY and ATTACK the ONCOMING ELBOW JOINT.[- Control ]IF A BODY SHOT [Chudan ]keep close to the guy, on the deadside. If Jodan , vary the move and take the guy over [in this case ] your left shoulder ,.Make strong atemi as you enter this disturbs the boxers rhythm[ if possible use a premptive strike .You cannot afford to let a boxer take the initiative and set you up.Too dangerous.Timing / maai and good spirit is required here.Formula::Complete Evasion/Control/Atemi then execute Waza. Cheers, Joe.
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Old 05-10-2011, 10:44 AM   #46
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Maybe.

The theory looks solid, we only need a competent boxer to test it. Meanwhile i'll stick with getting a 2 on 1 from the clinch and work from there.

Cheers.

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Old 05-10-2011, 11:54 AM   #47
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Demetrio,
How so?If the boxer punches for example a right hander to the face /body, MOVE TO DEAD SIDE{ [by irimi /tenkan ]-EVASION.Control wrist /forearm of attacker FIRMLY and ATTACK the ONCOMING ELBOW JOINT.[- Control ]IF A BODY SHOT [Chudan ]keep close to the guy, on the deadside. If Jodan , vary the move and take the guy over [in this case ] your left shoulder ,.Make strong atemi as you enter this disturbs the boxers rhythm[ if possible use a premptive strike .You cannot afford to let a boxer take the initiative and set you up.Too dangerous.Timing / maai and good spirit is required here.Formula::Complete Evasion/Control/Atemi then execute Waza. Cheers, Joe.
Thanks Joe, so you are attacking the elbow joint to execute the throw?

Also this you are cutting the hand as it extends for the punch or prior to it being pulled back to get the control?

Last edited by Reuben : 05-10-2011 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 05-10-2011, 12:14 PM   #48
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Demetrio,
How so?If the boxer punches for example a right hander to the face /body, MOVE TO DEAD SIDE{ [by irimi /tenkan ]-EVASION.Control wrist /forearm of attacker FIRMLY and ATTACK the ONCOMING ELBOW JOINT.[- Control ]IF A BODY SHOT [Chudan ]keep close to the guy, on the deadside. If Jodan , vary the move and take the guy over [in this case ] your left shoulder ,.Make strong atemi as you enter this disturbs the boxers rhythm[ if possible use a premptive strike .You cannot afford to let a boxer take the initiative and set you up.Too dangerous.Timing / maai and good spirit is required here.Formula::Complete Evasion/Control/Atemi then execute Waza. Cheers, Joe.
Joe what you say is certainly worth of consideration. And I am glad we both realize that the situation is dangerous and should by no account be underestimated.

I don't know, however, if you have considered these elements:

1] Evasion: a boxer doesn't stay there as you move laterally: he moves laterally to face you squarely at your same pace, all the while throwing punches.
The "competent boxer" Demetrio mentioned can be incredibly fast, Joe!

Let me say, the first time I was exchanging gloves on a ring for training, I was shocked.
It all seems something else when you just look at it.
Once there facing the real fire, you realize how difficult it can be, and how fast a competent boxer can be on feet and punches both. After weeks I still was not even able to hit him!

2] Atemi: on a boxer it is bound to do nothing: are you aware a boxer is used to get on his face not an atemi but combination of punches, and yet he loses no focus?

To be sure, here I am not speaking of somebody doing a few Thai boxe now and then - I am speaking of a guy used to official fights as a regular routine - it is immaterial then if he is fighting as a pro on the 6 rounds, the 12 rounds, or an amateur used to the olympic 3 rounds.
An atemi will not break the rhythm of a boxer used to deliver (without losing breath and moving on his feet too) seqences of jab/jab/right/uppercut/right/hook/hook///jab/right/jab/jab - I am sure you are aware boxers work on combinations not on isolated lucky attempts. And they are used to give them and receive them. And let me add - a punch is not an atemi: it something meant to produce a cerebral concussion possibily, it's stuff delievered at you with full intention.

How can one hope that an atemi is going to make this type of opponent lose his focus?
That's my question.

It's true then that Aikido doesn't seem tailored to face a boxeur as you previously stated on this thread - yet if Aikido becomes basically unusable, like in Reuben video, against someone boxing with even just a bit of determination, what is Aikido for?
Showers of punches are a very typical attack.

We cannot hope all our attackers are going to hold our wrists and threat us interminably as we work out what we can place.

thank you!

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 05-10-2011 at 12:29 PM.
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Old 05-10-2011, 12:41 PM   #49
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

ps An amateur boxer with some 30 official fights under his belt, will brush aside an incoming atemi by making a mere and minimal gesture with his left hand wrist as he is in guard (I regret I have no video to let you see how a good boxer can brush aside incoming fast jabs by a less competent foe), and as your atemi is still sliding on his cheek, he will immediately enter your guard ("irimi" his way) with a direct right in less than half a second.

This is typical.
And that's how fast he will be.

Aikido against that poses a problem and it eventually boils down to scrambling for the ikkyo we teach to our 6th kyus.
Reuben was not incompetent in his video - rather, he was facing a mild & very firendly version of the problem we speak of.

We are imagining aikido against a competent attacker - how would it perform, if also against a friendly one it already needs to go for the neck and strangle as they both fall down?

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 05-10-2011 at 12:52 PM.
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Old 05-10-2011, 01:58 PM   #50
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Maarten De Queecker wrote: View Post
This is correct and also the base of aikido. You don't do a technique, you flow into one.

"Oh yeah, now I can do this, and this situation lends itself perfectly for that..."

You act to what's given to you. Never try to force a technique, it won't work. Bend and adapt.
Yup...If Uke exhibits resistance that's a sure sign you're trying to force something that's not there and though the video on the boxer had the right spirit... focusing on "blocking" instead of "entering" will not work against a seasoned martial artist and is not very effective against even amateurs. Brings to mind that other "R" word. Realism...As Mr De Queeker hints at... If you're thinking of a particular technique before you're executing it... it's no different than telegraphing a punch. Only Sincere hard practice will help. I suggest you look at old vids of Randori with some of the Masters like Shioda Shihan. He enters.....Nuff said.

William Hazen
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