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Old 05-09-2011, 10:44 AM   #1
Reuben
 
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Effective udekimenage against resistance

Now I have been experimenting with udekimenage against tough resisting opponents (think MMA, BJJ people) and been meeting limited success.

A bit of history, been practicing Aikido for some 18 years maybe and over the past 2 years have taken up MMA. This has been a very educational journey for me in discovering the intricacies of Aikido techniques since I would sometimes horse around with the peeps to try Aikido techniques against them and find that I improved my technique since I understood the mechanics needed to get them working on a resisting opponent. I of course ask them to throw me a more dedicated attack unlike normal MMA strikes so I have some momentum to work with to offbalance them.

The problem with testing these techniques with Aikidoka (even experienced ones) is that their bodies and minds are already conditioned for Aikido movements and even when I tell them to resist, the technique still works on them hence I decided to try this on someone who knows nothing about Aikido and see how it goes.

My findings:
Udekimenage when done like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5wJAB9qTl8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7uLXOIj0c4&NR=1

doesn't work, even when the person is off balanced. At most it becomes a small projection just projecting him forward but he doesn't fall as he can easily just post his leg forward to stop him from falling.

There is of course the nasty way in which you apply a crank towards the elbow using your shoulder and upper arm but this even with pain doesn't lead to a throw unless the intention is to break his arm by smashing it on the extended arm with my shoulder...which I don't think is very Aiki.

Another thing I tried was locking the arm diagonally across my body and pushing forward and into with my shoulder and hip but this too although generated pain just resulted in a projection as well with no fall. Once again he could just post his leg forward and although it hurt, it was not a throw.

Now I saw a couple of these videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inuH8-XZlsQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrCLnvkt7TI

and realized that in both these videos there was a slight leg sweep/trip or at least the legs were positioned in a way that prevented the leg from posting. I haven't tried this yet (going to do so asap).

However I was wondering how everyone has been taught udekimenage....with the leg position in a way to trip or without? Are you taught that is an elbow breaking technique?

Last edited by Reuben : 05-09-2011 at 10:53 AM.
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Old 05-09-2011, 11:31 AM   #2
NagaBaba
 
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

General pointer as in all aikido techniques, that your hips must take place of attacker hips when you throw him.

It means for me that in ALL techniques (throws or others) the vector of your power goes through his hips. In the case of udekimange, all 3 joins of his arm have to be locked simultaneously and connected to his center. Then you use this as a leverage to put him on the top of his toes, otherwise he will simply bend his knees and no throw is possible.

Now HOW to achieve such situation with resistance (or countering) from attacker, that another story LOL You need to learn a leading, but it is really difficult. No experienced attacker will give extended arm…

Nagababa

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Old 05-09-2011, 11:50 AM   #3
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Reuben Yap wrote: View Post
However I was wondering how everyone has been taught udekimenage....with the leg position in a way to trip or without?
With the leg being more an obstruction (because the stepping towards uke's front to generate kuzusi) than a trip.

Quote:
Are you taught that is an elbow breaking technique?
Mainly as nage waza, but one that can be easily converted in ara waza.

On resisting opponents: start with a greco/russian 2 on 1 and work from there.

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 05-09-2011 at 11:55 AM.

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Old 05-09-2011, 02:58 PM   #4
Michael Hackett
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

I've seen (and felt) a variation from Yoseikan Budo that they call tenben nage. Nage grips Ukes wrist with both hands and locks his arm diagonally across the body. Nage then twists outward to about 45 degrees and throws by moving his hips forward. Uke must be on his toes though.

Michael
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Old 05-09-2011, 03:44 PM   #5
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

downward hand, aim for balls.
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Old 05-09-2011, 03:59 PM   #6
Keith Larman
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
downward hand, aim for balls.
I tried that, but it just didn't seem to work on her...

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Old 05-09-2011, 04:14 PM   #7
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

It depends on the fact it will never work.

It's a technique that should flow out of your hands in a situation where it seems the spontaneous and suitable thing to do. Unfortunately, very few situations will be such if you end up under real heavy enemy fire.
Without an uke who intentionally falls down, you will never project anyone who is on some strong or mild footing with that stuff.

But we have hope: your last sentence reveals that you got it: the intention of these techniques, just like of ikkyo, probably was that of breaking an arm - place them in a warlike situation like deadly duel, and you start suspecting immediately that they were designed to do much more than what is done on dojos.

So my brutal suggestion is not to project uke, but to ground him. This is the least Aiki thing one can envision and you ought to issue a Wanted board for what I am saying and a ban from all the good and respectable dojos in the world lol - ground him, drop yourself on his shoulder.
This is goin to get your Sensei showing you the door, but if you happen to apply that in a real fight against an attacker with a knife in his hands, you won't have time to post here but, rather, you will be scrambling for dear life.

Drop yoruself on his shoulder, and forget projecting him: ground him face down headlong - his teeth on the floor.

In the dojo, instead, keep pretending it works like in the videos :-D

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 05-09-2011 at 04:20 PM.
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Old 05-09-2011, 05:53 PM   #8
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Oh I was watching once again your videos. A related one was this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tbdRCq5Zqk

Under this respect, my half-humorous and half-serious answer becomes more serious - for: tell me, in this latest video, what's the difference between that "iriminage" and hitting uke in the face with a punch: wouldn't he likely fall in both cases?

Some techniques seem stuff to put in store for when you become a demigod at Aikido - when the techniques flow so spontaneously from your hands that whatever incoming dynamic immediately elicits its appropriate response.
That is: you need to be able to extract the Sword in the Stone first... then yes, you can secure any fight. Undoubtedly.

However there are so few at that stage (certainly not me!) and it would need so much training with ukes of every flavour, that my suggestion to ground him seems less unwarranted, and less humourous - after all, in that video we see an 8th dan throwing a _dissimulated_ punch at one's face!
Let's call a rose with another name!

Actually, with ude kime nage one would think that the more the arm is rigid, the better. Maybe this: try irimi badly into his armpit and give a strong hip thrust, and get ready to drop on him when you see it did not work?

I really don't know. Some techiniques are a big mistery to me and when you say hey they don't work if uke is very aggressive and/or strong and/or rigid I'm all with you.

PS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7uLXOIj0c4&NR=1 IMHU is comical. They probably meant as a demonstration of how we can make people laugh :-D

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 05-09-2011 at 06:01 PM.
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Old 05-09-2011, 08:33 PM   #9
Reuben
 
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Alberto: Yeap I'm not saying they are sterling examples of Aikido but I found it difficult to find any high levels demonstrating this technique but I may have struck gold:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgBTi1lrg10

Watch this one where Gozo Shioda does it and I don't see any use of the leg trip/position. That being said it does look like the uke is flinging himself (though with someone as bad-ass as Shioda one can hardly blame the uke).

But what is more telling is that udekimenage is known as 'hijiate' in Yoshinkan which if I understand correctly is translated as 'strike to elbow?' If so we can safely conclude that this technique as originally designed was to break/strike the extended elbow rather than throw itself and that the dojo version of this technique is just for safety rather than it being an effective technique in its dojo form.

These techniques really should come with an instruction manual :/

Appreciate anyone in the Yoshinkan school to comment on this also
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Old 05-09-2011, 09:22 PM   #10
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

I did ask kancho to show me how to do the technique correctly last year. I told him my sensei experienced the same technique from kancho some decades back and I wanted to experience the same.

My sensei said when Kancho did it to him, he flipped over on the same spot without feeling any pain. He did this several times. And in no way was it a joint lock throw he emphasised.

When kancho did it to me though, he basically utilised enshin from the forearm all the way until my shoulder and the fulcrum is that shoulder not the elbow lock, thus when being thrown imagine yonkyo...

In the end I didn't fall in the same spot and I did feel all of the technique. He must have let me off since I probably don't have the ukemi skills of sensei.

Anyway, the fact that you want to post with your lead foot is irrelevant when your face is going to be planted on the mat. That being said, if the fulcrum is still the elbow, yes your are likely to be able to stop it. I wouldn't but you could.

Quote:
Reuben Yap wrote: View Post
Alberto: Yeap I'm not saying they are sterling examples of Aikido but I found it difficult to find any high levels demonstrating this technique but I may have struck gold:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgBTi1lrg10

Watch this one where Gozo Shioda does it and I don't see any use of the leg trip/position. That being said it does look like the uke is flinging himself (though with someone as bad-ass as Shioda one can hardly blame the uke).

But what is more telling is that udekimenage is known as 'hijiate' in Yoshinkan which if I understand correctly is translated as 'strike to elbow?' If so we can safely conclude that this technique as originally designed was to break/strike the extended elbow rather than throw itself and that the dojo version of this technique is just for safety rather than it being an effective technique in its dojo form.

These techniques really should come with an instruction manual :/

Appreciate anyone in the Yoshinkan school to comment on this also

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 05-09-2011, 09:25 PM   #11
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Reuben Yap wrote: View Post
as 'strike to elbow?' If so we can safely conclude that this technique as originally designed was to break/strike the extended elbow rather than throw itself and that the dojo version of this technique is just for safety rather than it being an effective technique in its dojo form.
Forgive my lack of experience: do you imply also that when I said drop yourself on his arm and make his teeth hit the mat, I did not say, after all, that anathema that will get me banned from all the Aiki forums of the world?
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Old 05-09-2011, 09:58 PM   #12
Reuben
 
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
I did ask kancho to show me how to do the technique correctly last year. I told him my sensei experienced the same technique from kancho some decades back and I wanted to experience the same.

My sensei said when Kancho did it to him, he flipped over on the same spot without feeling any pain. He did this several times. And in no way was it a joint lock throw he emphasised.

When kancho did it to me though, he basically utilised enshin from the forearm all the way until my shoulder and the fulcrum is that shoulder not the elbow lock, thus when being thrown imagine yonkyo...

In the end I didn't fall in the same spot and I did feel all of the technique. He must have let me off since I probably don't have the ukemi skills of sensei.

Anyway, the fact that you want to post with your lead foot is irrelevant when your face is going to be planted on the mat. That being said, if the fulcrum is still the elbow, yes your are likely to be able to stop it. I wouldn't but you could.
Did you feel pain? I understand using it as a fulcrum from the shoulder which is how I did it for many years but to drive the shoulder forward and down, I felt the forward force and was projected forward but I could still remain on my two feet. My whole upper body is already brought down to an almost horizontal line which shows that my balance has been broken but the posting prevented me from having my face planted on the mat and still remain on my two feet.

Is udekimenage is in effect a pain and break compliance technique? In the sense that if you resist, you're going to get your arm broken therefore you better roll. Thing is I think that even if I don't resist the technique and go with the throw, I can still get away on my two feet.

Where is your dojo in Malaysia? Maybe I should pop by and see how it is done (please don't break my arm).
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Old 05-09-2011, 10:03 PM   #13
Reuben
 
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
Forgive my lack of experience: do you imply also that when I said drop yourself on his arm and make his teeth hit the mat, I did not say, after all, that anathema that will get me banned from all the Aiki forums of the world?
hahaha well this whole thing is a contradiction.

We are told that Aikido is meant not to harm the opponent. But we are also by told by most instructors that we are to do what is necessary in a self defense situation.

Now assuming if I'm in a self defense situation and somehow get into udekimenage position, my question is, can I throw the guy or do I have to drop him/break his arm to make it work. If so, I'm much better off using a different art. (unlikely for an attacker to comply with your attack).
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Old 05-09-2011, 11:10 PM   #14
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Reuben Yap wrote: View Post
hahaha well this whole thing is a contradiction.

We are told that Aikido is meant not to harm the opponent. But we are also by told by most instructors that we are to do what is necessary in a self defense situation.

Now assuming if I'm in a self defense situation and somehow get into udekimenage position, my question is, can I throw the guy or do I have to drop him/break his arm to make it work. If so, I'm much better off using a different art. (unlikely for an attacker to comply with your attack).
You know Reuben - we all noticed this thing in Aikido. Of course, we try not to be too vocal about it, also because if we do, we immediately find plenty of guys who explain to us that:
1) it is not so
2) it is for demonstration purposes
3) aikido is too dangerosu - it's lethal, and if you're not extremely careful, who knos what could happen
4) aikido may maim you: if an ikkyo is done in the right way, your arm would end up being on the mat, tore apart
5) oh, it is for demonstration purposes
6) and, last but not least, did I mention it is for demonstration purposes?

What I am saying is: you're right, too many techniques, placed outside of the hypercontrolled setting of many dojos, would miserably fail, and the gap we may discover comparing those videos with what we might witness, instead, with an aikidoka taking real hyperhostile (and no longer hypercontrolled) enemy fire, spreads so vast a gulf that it is seemingly unbridgeable.

However, the idea behind Aikido is so fascinating, that I pursue it.
I pursue it also if dojos at times make me fill sick with their too fictional approach.
I will never be a good aikidoka - this because of my own incompetence and my own quirks, and also because I refuse of considering myself good or bad after the standards of how I can place a ude kime nage on an uke who will do his best to fall down if I sing gingle bell too loud.

But Aikido is beautiful.
And if you can place one of its techniques (I know it's a big if), game over: fight concluded.
How much punishment you took in the meanwhile is open to speculation, of course.

But Aikido is beautiful.
The challenges it poses when you decide you want to make it work against a real situation are fascinating.
And if by chance you manage to land a technique - bingo!

And, perhaps, dojos don't suffice.

develop your aikido too - in that case, drop on his arm and show him the floor. Or don't ever use that technique in a real situation (oh, and don't ever use iriminage too in a real situation)

I don't know.

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 05-09-2011 at 11:15 PM.
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Old 05-09-2011, 11:34 PM   #15
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

It's a contradiction, yes.
I don't know if Aikido will ever find a way out of this contradiction. I doubt it, because its prerequiste would be having Federations acknowledge the contradiction.
But why should they? Why?

Besides, after all, we can see videos where O'Sensei trains aikidokas exactly in the way most dojos do.

You are alone with this Sphinx, Reuben. You have to find yourself what of Aikido is usable and what not. Nobody's gonna tell you.
Go find a partner off the mat, and check with him - then back to the dojo - then back to check out of the dojo whether what they told you holds "true" against fire.

To date, I have found no better solution - and most of my techniques suck, in fact.
One wonders: do they know that a determined opponent grabbing your hand will NEVER let you place an ikkyo on him?
They make you spin ukes around with iriminage: one wonders, do they know a real attacker will NEVER let you bend his neck with a fairy tales touch?
They make you do ude kime nage against ukes whose consistency is that of leaves in the wind.

Go to the dojo. Then double check outside of it.
Find your Aikido - it won't look beautiful, probably - pretty aikido is for -ahem- demonstration purposes
If you are to be one day good at it, I doubt you will become such going to any Doe Dojo thrice a week. I really doubt it.

Aikido is an art of deception

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 05-09-2011 at 11:43 PM.
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Old 05-09-2011, 11:51 PM   #16
Abasan
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Reuben Yap wrote: View Post
Did you feel pain? I understand using it as a fulcrum from the shoulder which is how I did it for many years but to drive the shoulder forward and down, I felt the forward force and was projected forward but I could still remain on my two feet. My whole upper body is already brought down to an almost horizontal line which shows that my balance has been broken but the posting prevented me from having my face planted on the mat and still remain on my two feet.

Is udekimenage is in effect a pain and break compliance technique? In the sense that if you resist, you're going to get your arm broken therefore you better roll. Thing is I think that even if I don't resist the technique and go with the throw, I can still get away on my two feet.

Where is your dojo in Malaysia? Maybe I should pop by and see how it is done (please don't break my arm).
Hi Rueben, I don't feel pain when kancho did it to me. But this could be as much because I reacted with the ukemi appropriate to the technique. I didn't go and post my leg out just to see if I could stop his technique. Having analysed that I realise that I haven't truly answered the OP's question I suppose.

In fact to be honest, I've had on occasion some students posting their leg out when I didn't get the enshin right. To which I will then try to project more down through their shoulders which sometimes result in the face plant. So I don't think this is the correct way, not the way my sensei will have it in anycase but it's what I'm physically able to perform at this point in time. I hope to improve.

My dojo is in Bkt Jelutong, you're welcome to come and share experience. Drop me a pm.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 05-10-2011, 12:38 AM   #17
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Reuben Yap wrote: View Post
... We are told that Aikido is meant not to harm the opponent. ...
This is a sentence I first read on an internet forum and never heard from a teacher.

Quote:
But we are also by told by most instructors that we are to do what is necessary in a self defense situation.
"Everything is allowed in aikido", is a sentence I heard of a teacher during my very first seminar.

To not hurt the opponent is not part of the picture of the aikido I know. And will not work with an opponent who isn't used to aikido.

But what is more interesting to me:
When I practice with people who don't do aikido the ude kime nage which doesn't seem to work is one of the most effective tools. (Without breaking the elbow ... )
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Old 05-10-2011, 01:22 AM   #18
Reuben
 
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
But what is more interesting to me:
When I practice with people who don't do aikido the ude kime nage which doesn't seem to work is one of the most effective tools. (Without breaking the elbow ... )
Could you share how you do it? Ideally with video if possible (hard to imagine in words)! Much thanks! I would be very grateful for this.

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
It's a contradiction, yes.
I don't know if Aikido will ever find a way out of this contradiction. I doubt it, because its prerequiste would be having Federations acknowledge the contradiction.
But why should they? Why?

Besides, after all, we can see videos where O'Sensei trains aikidokas exactly in the way most dojos do.

You are alone with this Sphinx, Reuben. You have to find yourself what of Aikido is usable and what not. Nobody's gonna tell you.
Go find a partner off the mat, and check with him - then back to the dojo - then back to check out of the dojo whether what they told you holds "true" against fire.

To date, I have found no better solution - and most of my techniques suck, in fact.
One wonders: do they know that a determined opponent grabbing your arm will NEVER let you place an ikkyo on him?
They make you spin ukes around with iriminage: one wonders, do they know a real attacker will never let you bend his neck with a fairy tales touch?
They make you do ude kime nage against ukes whose consistency is that of leaves in the wind.

Go to the dojo. Then double check outside of it.
Find your Aikido - it won't look beautiful, probably - pretty aikido is for -ahem- demonstration purposes
If you are to be one day good at it, I doubt you will become such going to any Doe Dojo thrice a week. I really doubt it.

Aikido is an art of deception
Well being less than a week away from my 3rd dan exam after practicing tachi dori techniques and san nin holds..you can say that I too have become jaded with the way Aikido is being taught but I refuse to give up just yet.

I am very lucky to have students who don't mind seeing their Sensei get punched in the face when trying out new stuff and those from other disciplines too don't mind showing me their stuff and their opinions of what works and doesn't.

I am also blessed to practice in an MMA studio environment with nice people who aren't out to show how strong they are and are just there to have fun and learn so it's great to try out new stuff on them.

At the end of the day, until someone shows me otherwise, I will continue trying to find modifications of dojo techniques to achieve what I feel are 'Aiki' like solutions to problems as long as they meet the following
a) The ability to control without having to hurt.
b) Using the opponent's energy to off balance him.

Times have changed and so has the nature of attacks. Those who refer to Aikido as being developed from battlefield arts the vast majority I would think know little about fighting on the medieval battlefield (indeed who does nowadays?) and I would hazard a guess that battlefield war then is very much different than your average self defense situation.

The video below of was of me when I was in my first few months training in MMA and was exposed to MMA sparring. I thought it would be fun to just mess about with Aikido to see how it works against someone who does punch combos and is given license to resist if he can. This is an experiment and I realize my uke is much smaller than me and that he's throwing not so committal attacks (which I told him he was free to do so) nor is it a good example of how Aikido (or MMA) should be performed. It is sloppy no less!

I merely thought I record it as a snapshot of my Aikido development and I post it here to share since the discussion has evolved somewhat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMg1OuKWcgI

Last edited by Reuben : 05-10-2011 at 01:31 AM.
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Old 05-10-2011, 01:33 AM   #19
Reuben
 
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
Hi Rueben, I don't feel pain when kancho did it to me. But this could be as much because I reacted with the ukemi appropriate to the technique. I didn't go and post my leg out just to see if I could stop his technique. Having analysed that I realise that I haven't truly answered the OP's question I suppose.

In fact to be honest, I've had on occasion some students posting their leg out when I didn't get the enshin right. To which I will then try to project more down through their shoulders which sometimes result in the face plant. So I don't think this is the correct way, not the way my sensei will have it in anycase but it's what I'm physically able to perform at this point in time. I hope to improve.

My dojo is in Bkt Jelutong, you're welcome to come and share experience. Drop me a pm.
Thanks the next time I drop by I will look you guys up!
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Old 05-10-2011, 01:37 AM   #20
ewolput
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Mae otoshi is a similar technique in the Tomiki Aikido repertoire. Here is a link where you can see mae otoshi with a non cooperative opponent :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD4LSqRGxG0
It is the 4th technique, but in the clip there are more variations.

There was a time when this technique was banned in shia because a lot of injuriesi, but now again is free to use it.

Eddy Wolput
www.shobukai.be
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Old 05-10-2011, 02:22 AM   #21
Michael Varin
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Reuben,

For starters, I refer to the technique that you call udekimenage as mae otoshi.

Second, I have a different outlook on the techniques that have become part of aikido and where their natural effectiveness lies.

If you were to perform mae otoshi while you are holding a weapon, uke may well have more incentive (the more powerful the weapon, the greater the incentive) to hold on to you until a throw is achievable. Additionally, if you are armed in this scenario, a "small projection" may very well be all you need to effectively end the fight.

And what if you have multiple opponents and your biggest concern is to free yourself for continued movement?

By the way, I really enjoyed the spirit of your video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMg1OuKWcgI

It reminds me of the early stages of my exploration into the effectiveness of aikido techniques. I think I can give you a big hint that will put you light-years ahead. It all revolves around context. You have to free yourself from the one-on-one, empty-hand context that we have all come to believe is where martial arts should prove themselves. Start experimenting with weapons and multiple opponent situations. See where aikido fits better and where mma struggles. You might be surprised.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 05-10-2011, 02:30 AM   #22
Reuben
 
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
It reminds me of the early stages of my exploration into the effectiveness of aikido techniques. I think I can give you a big hint that will put you light-years ahead. It all revolves around context. You have to free yourself from the one-on-one, empty-hand context that we have all come to believe is where martial arts should prove themselves. Start experimenting with weapons and multiple opponent situations. See where aikido fits better and where mma struggles. You might be surprised.
Thanks for the tip!

ewol & Michael: will look into mae otoshi later on today
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Old 05-10-2011, 02:43 AM   #23
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Do you know what? this is perhaps the most interesting video with an aikidoka in, that I have seen in two years.
Do not dismiss it as mere fun. It is one of the more instructive instances to be found online. I don't mean it's terrific in itself - I mean we nearly never see on video guys who have the guts of showing themselves in a setting that won't make them look good.
Fantastic.
And you're a Dan!

Well, my personal judgement aside, just in order to contribute to the discussion and keeping in mind with humilty that I am a bad aikidoka, yet perhaps I have a few considerations to make and maybe not all of them are unconsequential or to be dismissed like stuff.

1] You are facing an opponent who throws punches.
Now, too many aikidokas seem to forget that, in a real situation, this is precisely what you have to face in most cases. Commendable choice!

Now, it is true that your uke is not really experienced - you would be surprised how a vaguely decent boxer (no Thai: pure boxing) with say 30 fights on his shoulders (with "decent boxer" I mean only this: you won't need Ray Sugar leonard) can hit you and keep you at bay. However, he has the merit of pursuing you (our ukes throw mild stuff and - doh - wait!)

2] This training, that you rightly dub "fun" (or so: "messing around") ought instead to be exactly a daily part of our training.
See how difficult it was to place one technique - and the simplest of all, Ikkyo: number one. I mean, you know too the ikkyos we see on videos - everything seems simple.
It is not.

3] Let's examine briefly the two techniques you manage to land. One is the Ikkyo.
Of course. That's exactly and nearly the only thing we can do to someone throwing punches, and what I normally attempt too - we strive to get lateral, and once lateral you have no time to think of fancy things with a fast paced opponent - you do what you can, and what you can has a name: Ikkyo.
The "yet" stays in this: yet, facing such attacks, our aikido is reduced to nearly nothing - it necessarily becomes very poor.
One wonders: why we learn scores of techniques, when even under mild & friendly fire we can't apply more than 3 or 4 at best?

4] You produce a neck lock - and that's correct, though it's not aikido any longer. But I think that, then and there, you realized what I realized: a real fight immensely depletes our Aikido.

5] Of course, I think you know (and I hope that you will take no offense if I state the obvious - with the premise that in my case it is even worse!): that aikido is immensely ugly.

I mean: what is left there of all those super sophisticated videos we see with super sleek techniques all super easily applied and all invariably succeeding and ukes falling on the floor immediately?
We move from immaculate aikido to plain ugly (I mean to the eye) without any intermediate step!
In an instant, we have jumped beyond the whole gap!

6] Envision a situation where the boxer gets at you: imagine the problems for fun you had there, what they could turn into once actual blows hit you: they do pose a challenge. From ugly to uglier.

Morale: one cannot "udekimenage" on these guys - one has to go for the jugular

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 05-10-2011 at 02:46 AM.
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Old 05-10-2011, 02:57 AM   #24
Reuben
 
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
Do you know what? this is perhaps the most interesting video with an aikidoka in, that I have seen in two years.
Do not dismiss it as mere fun. It is one of the more instructive instances to be found online. I don't mean it's terrific in itself - I mean we nearly never see on video guys who have the guts of showing themselves in a setting that won't make them look good.
Fantastic.
And you're a Dan!

Well, my personal judgement aside, just in order to contribute to the discussion and keeping in mind with humilty that I am a bad aikidoka, yet perhaps I have a few considerations to make and maybe not all of them are unconsequential or to be dismissed like stuff.

1] You are facing an opponent who throws punches.
Now, too many aikidokas seem to forget that, in a real situation, this is precisely what you have to face in most cases. Commendable choice!

Now, it is true that your uke is not really experienced - you would be surprised how a vaguely decent boxer (no Thai: pure boxing) with say 30 fights on his shoulders (with "decent boxer" I mean only this: you won't need Ray Sugar leonard) can hit you and keep you at bay. However, he has the merit of pursuing you (our ukes throw mild stuff and - doh - wait!)

2] This training, that you rightly dub "fun" (or so: "messing around") ought instead to be exactly a daily part of our training.
See how difficult it was to place one technique - and the simplest of all, Ikkyo: number one. I mean, you know too the ikkyos we see on videos - everything seems simple.
It is not.

3] Let's examine briefly the two techniques you manage to land. One is the Ikkyo.
Of course. That's exactly and nearly the only thing we can do to someone throwing punches, and what I normally attempt too - we strive to get lateral, and once lateral you have no time to think of fancy things with a fast paced opponent - you do what you can, and what you can has a name: Ikkyo.
The "yet" stays in this: yet, facing such attacks, our aikido is reduced to nearly nothing - it necessarily becomes very poor.
One wonders: why we learn scores of techniques, when even under mild & friendly fire we can't apply more than 3 or 4 at best?

4] You produce a neck lock - and that's correct, though it's not aikido any longer. But I think that, then and there, you realized what I realized: a real fight immensely depletes our Aikido.

5] Of course, I think you know (and I hope that you will take no offense if I state the obvious - with the premise that in my case it is even worse!): that aikido is immensely ugly.

I mean: what is left there of all those super sophisticated videos we see with super sleek techniques all super easily applied and all invariably succeeding and ukes falling on the floor immediately?
We move from immaculate aikido to plain ugly (I mean to the eye) without any intermediate step!
In an instant, we have jumped beyond the whole gap!

6] Envision a situation where the boxer gets at you: imagine the problems for fun you had there, what they could turn into once actual blows hit you: they do pose a challenge. From ugly to uglier.

Morale: one cannot "udekimenage" on these guys - one has to go for the jugular
I'm glad you found my video entertaining lol though I don't think you should look too deeply into me having a dan grade as sometimes I wonder with my views on Aikido whether I am actually a true Aikidoka Exams and true understanding of techniques are quite separate things.

I've actually learnt a few things since then so I think it's a good time to post a new video and will do so when I can.

The guy striking has also gotten wise to my tricks and is less afraid to hold back (in a separate instance I got caught up in trying to secure the hand and he just proceeded to repeatedly punch me albeit lightly in the face which was a very important lesson). I probably should also try messing more with my MMA friends with Aikido maybe with some limited rules like you can only punch or grab/takedown me but no feints and also try Michael's suggestion of different sort of scenarios.

I have no doubt that my Aikido is ugly. That being said I have successfully pulled off a textbook sudden duck and trip thing on an unexpecting sparring partner.
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Old 05-10-2011, 03:05 AM   #25
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: Effective udekimenage against resistance

Quote:
Reuben Yap wrote: View Post
I
(in a separate instance I got caught up in trying to secure the hand and he just proceeded to repeatedly punch me albeit lightly in the face which was a very important lesson).
Of course he did!
It's only our ukes who have one arm only

That's was one of the thing I attempted to emphasize: imagine those repeated punches in the face being thrown with intention, and no gloves.
Let's talk of atemi! You lose your focus, and there he goes: you find out he is now hitting you with both hands again!

Since that is the most typical situation, the most typical attack - you don't nikkyo that. You won't yonkyo it. You don't shiho nage it. You don't iriminage that stuff.

You ikkyo it, at most - and in less than a minute you soon find out you have to choke him (falling down with him)!

Once again, I can't thank you enough for this video - at times it seemed to me I was speaking of UFOs that I was the only one to have sighted

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 05-10-2011 at 03:08 AM.
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