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Old 05-08-2011, 08:26 PM   #1
oisin bourke
 
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Kodo Horikawa's aiki

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
I have one video I can reference:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXNqdl3-KFo

Specifically the very beginning, but the principle he's demonstrating throughout is ok, though a bit too floppish. At least he's not doing the electricity type demo that is often seen.

Anyway, the beginning is to me, great. He's connecting to uke's center, getting under them and lifting his arms (and uke) without using his shoulders/chest/biceps, very smooth and relaxed and uke is actually putting some weight into him. It takes a very specific type of body training to be able to do that.

Have someone hold a jo arms lenght out from them, horizontal. you stand facinng them and also grab the jo at arms length and try to raise the jo up with them putting just a little bit of weight into the jo and see if you can do it using nothing but your arms, but without using yoru shoulders/chest/arms. To call it hard is a gross understatement.

now stand closer to the jo so that your hips are almost directly under the jo and this time whole holding the jo in place, drop your hips down a foot or so (keep your hands on the jo and at the same level they were before dropping your hips) and kind of get under the jo. Now keep the distance between your hand and hips consistent and just stand up. While you will probably still have tension in your shoulders/chest/etc to support the jo, you should see that it's much easier to lift the jo without introducing a whole lot more tension into your body.

In that video, that's what Horikawa is doing, but without physically moving his center to get under uke and without using the normal muscles one would use to do what he's doing. The rest of the demos on the vid are pretty much an extension of that, connecting to uke's center, getting under them and moving them where their balance isn't. That's also pretty much every aikido technique you'll see as done by o'sensei, regardless of era.
Thanks for that Jason. That's a fairly clear explanation. Questions that follow your description are: How do you move/raise your arms without using shoulders/shest biceps? What do you move?
Also, how do you "get under" someone if you cannot drop your hips e.g when you are in seiza?
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Old 05-08-2011, 10:27 PM   #2
Janet Rosen
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Re: Kodo Horikawa's aiki

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
Thanks for that Jason. That's a fairly clear explanation. Questions that follow your description are: How do you move/raise your arms without using shoulders/shest biceps? What do you move?
Also, how do you "get under" someone if you cannot drop your hips e.g when you are in seiza?
I'm not Jason, but...
"How do you move/raise your arms without using shoulders/shest biceps?" = for me, engaging lats and triceps (= body use for classic "weight underside and extend")
and
"how do you "get under" someone if you cannot drop your hips" = for me, even harder, since I don't kneel and have to do kokyu dosa sitting cross legged! But while completely static I can still drop my center because center does not equal hips. Think engaging abdominals and sinking them - if your upper body is connected, everything drops with center, and if you maintain your dropped shoulders AND your triceps extension as you drop center, you sink under while extending towards uke and can undermine his structure....
that's what I'm working on these days.

Janet Rosen
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Old 05-08-2011, 10:55 PM   #3
Walter Martindale
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Re: Kodo Horikawa's aiki

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
Thanks for that Jason. That's a fairly clear explanation. Questions that follow your description are: How do you move/raise your arms without using shoulders/shest biceps? What do you move?
Also, how do you "get under" someone if you cannot drop your hips e.g when you are in seiza?
I'd bet that if someone took an electromyogram of the shoulders, chest muscles and biceps (and trapezius) they'd find that the only way you raise your arms (without using swing momentum or outside help) is to engage the muscles. Denervate those muscles, no movement.

I'm at a complete loss about the 'get under' part if you can't lower your centre of mass.
W
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Old 05-09-2011, 12:40 AM   #4
Janet Rosen
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Re: Kodo Horikawa's aiki

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
I'd bet that if someone took an electromyogram of the shoulders, chest muscles and biceps (and trapezius) they'd find that the only way you raise your arms (without using swing momentum or outside help) is to engage the muscles. Denervate those muscles, no movement.
W
Again, it is very easy to raise the arms using the lats and triceps to come up from below with shoulders actually lowered (the Pilates thing of "going down to go up," as well as how Tohei Sensei taught to raise arms by extending ki, as well as the sometimes used visualization of "imagine you are a puppet and let the tips of your fingers raise up and out in front of you" ...all are different ways to get to the same actual muscle engagement). Chest yes, if you consider lats as chestal, but not shoulder or biceps.

Janet Rosen
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Old 05-09-2011, 02:11 AM   #5
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Re: Kodo Horikawa's aiki

Very interesting video to me:

I see a lot of things we practice with Endo sensei.
At least it looks exactly the same.

There is no "dropping of hips" in the aikido as I understand and practice it. If you are able to connect with your partner there is no need to get under his center (which was the way I was taught formerly) to move him.

Very interesting video!
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Old 05-09-2011, 04:22 AM   #6
Michael Varin
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Re: Kodo Horikawa's aiki

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote:
Anyway, the beginning is to me, great. He's connecting to uke's center, getting under them and lifting his arms (and uke) without using his shoulders/chest/biceps, very smooth and relaxed and uke is actually putting some weight into him.
I'm not so sure that uke is putting any weight on him. Many karateka who do not strike bags/pads feel their own punches in their shoulders and think they are hitting hard, but very little is transferred into their fist and beyond. I think we have the grabbing version of this here. From my experience, tension within uke does not necessarily translate into nage bearing weight.

Would you agree that at least 85% of what is shown beyond 0:47 would not have occurred without a totally compliant uke?

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 05-09-2011, 04:28 AM   #7
Michael Varin
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Re: Kodo Horikawa's aiki

Aiki Kinesiology… I'm coining the term.

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote:
see if you can do it using nothing but your arms, but without using yoru shoulders/chest/arms. To call it hard is a gross understatement.
To call this possible is a gross overstatement.

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote:
without using the normal muscles one would use to do what he's doing.
Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote:
"How do you move/raise your arms without using shoulders/shest biceps?" = for me, engaging lats and triceps
Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote:
Again, it is very easy to raise the arms using the lats and triceps to come up from below with shoulders actually lowered
Janet, to my knowledge the latissimus dorsi and triceps muscles do not participate in shoulder (glenohumeral) flexion, i.e, raising the upper arm in front of the body.

The lats do play a role in scapular depression and retraction, which are very important movements, but neither will raise your arm.

I don't mean to be too sarcastic or give anyone a hard time. Martial arts aside, I am fascinated by the movement of the human body. I just think we should expect a much higher level of clarity and accuracy in our discussion. It can only be to everyone's benefit.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 05-09-2011, 06:51 AM   #8
phitruong
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Re: Kodo Horikawa's aiki

there was a study using Kuroda sensei as the subject.

http://budoshugyosha.over-blog.com/a...-65641305.html

http://budoshugyosha.over-blog.com/a...-65721885.html

Kuroda sensei used small amount of biceps and mostly triceps and grand dorsal for up and down movement compared to normal folks. same with the horizontal cut movement. it's not that he didn't use the other muscles normal folks used to move their arms, but he used much less of them.

i suspected that Horikawa sensei used similar muscle groups.

now it would be even more interesting if they have done the full body monitoring. would be interesting to find out what his lower body doing at the same time.
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Old 05-09-2011, 08:24 AM   #9
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Re: Kodo Horikawa's aiki

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
I'm not so sure that uke is putting any weight on him. Many karateka who do not strike bags/pads feel their own punches in their shoulders and think they are hitting hard, but very little is transferred into their fist and beyond. I think we have the grabbing version of this here. From my experience, tension within uke does not necessarily translate into nage bearing weight.

Would you agree that at least 85% of what is shown beyond 0:47 would not have occurred without a totally compliant uke?
Well, you can see uke tensing up, but yes, that does not mean any real transfer of force, but he's also leaning over and into him, so there has to be some weight transfer going on there. It's the only part of the video that holds enough water that I would want to show it as a valid demo, but we could debate the particulars of that part and never come to any agreement as to just how much force is involved.

After that, nobody in the video was giving Horikawa any resistance, but yes, I do believe that a good bit of what was being done there could be done with a resisting uke, though honestly I cannot say to what degree. I've only experienced a few of those myself.
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Old 05-09-2011, 08:37 AM   #10
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Re: Kodo Horikawa's aiki

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
I'd bet that if someone took an electromyogram of the shoulders, chest muscles and biceps (and trapezius) they'd find that the only way you raise your arms (without using swing momentum or outside help) is to engage the muscles. Denervate those muscles, no movement.

I'm at a complete loss about the 'get under' part if you can't lower your centre of mass.
W
Muscle use is still involved, there's no way around it, but you're avoiding using the major muscles as completely as possible. Our view of the role of muscles in the body is horrible incomplete. Spend some time searching on the myofascial connections of muscles and you'll quickly see how medical science is just now starting to recognize the more connected nature of the muscles of our body and how those connections can be strengthed without focusing on localized development as we know it (biceps, triceps, etc etc).

getting under someone without physically dropping your center means that the source of your force is coming at uke from beneath their center. It's something that can be conditioned, developed and trained.
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Old 05-09-2011, 09:02 AM   #11
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Re: Kodo Horikawa's aiki

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
Thanks for that Jason. That's a fairly clear explanation. Questions that follow your description are: How do you move/raise your arms without using shoulders/shest biceps? What do you move?
Also, how do you "get under" someone if you cannot drop your hips e.g when you are in seiza?
Hi Oisin, thanks for making the new thread.

There are some mechanical things you can do to help, extending your hands down and out to raise your hands rather than simply raising them in a normal arc, but that's avoiding the real work I'm afraid. You have to condition your body to be able to support itself against forces without the use of the major muscles. The only way to do this is to do things with light enough pressure that those major muscles aren't activated. Over time the connections become strong enough to provide support without those major muscles. The only way to get that base conditioning is to start as light as possible. Anything that causes the major muscles to kick in means that those "other muscles" aren't getting conditioned, which means you'll never avoid using them in some form or another.

For instance, hold your hand out in front of you and have someone push on it. If you relax your shoulders as completely as possible what tpyically happens is that your shoulder will kind of collapse back. If you force your shoulder to not collapse, the rest of the shoulder will engage pretty quickly. If you do the same thing with just a small amount of force you can suppot it, but without the shoulder collapsing and without the major muscles kicking in to support it. If you do that for a little while you'll find that the shoulder becomes capable of supporting more force while retaining that same relaxed strength as it had when you were being pushed on with little to no force. Every joint in the body can be conditioned in a similarly, but the major ones that seem to often get in the way are the shoulders/chest, lower back and pelvis area.

Getting under someone without dropping your center just means that you are directing force at them, lower than their center of gravity. Imagine a steel pole buried in the ground. Since the pole doesn't flex or give in any way, you could say that it is an extension of the ground. With enough of the above you would get to a point that by keeping yoru body relaxed you are like that pole, a conduit to the ground and when you move your forces are originating from the ground so that everythign you put out is always lower than the other person.

Give me a little bit and I'll draw a diagram or two that might make sense.
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Old 05-09-2011, 10:27 AM   #12
Janet Rosen
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Re: Kodo Horikawa's aiki

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Janet, to my knowledge the latissimus dorsi and triceps muscles do not participate in shoulder (glenohumeral) flexion, i.e, raising the upper arm in front of the body.

The lats do play a role in scapular depression and retraction, which are very important movements, but neither will raise your arm.

I don't mean to be too sarcastic or give anyone a hard time. Martial arts aside, I am fascinated by the movement of the human body. I just think we should expect a much higher level of clarity and accuracy in our discussion. It can only be to everyone's benefit.
No offense taken, Michael. I'm hoping that at a Calif aikiweb meetup (Labor Day wkend? Aikido of Diablo Valley?) kinesiology, ground paths, etc will be some of the things we informally play with.

Janet Rosen
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Old 05-09-2011, 11:07 AM   #13
Mark Freeman
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Re: Kodo Horikawa's aiki

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
There are some mechanical things you can do to help, extending your hands down and out to raise your hands rather than simply raising them in a normal arc, but that's avoiding the real work I'm afraid. You have to condition your body to be able to support itself against forces without the use of the major muscles. The only way to do this is to do things with light enough pressure that those major muscles aren't activated. Over time the connections become strong enough to provide support without those major muscles. The only way to get that base conditioning is to start as light as possible. Anything that causes the major muscles to kick in means that those "other muscles" aren't getting conditioned, which means you'll never avoid using them in some form or another.
Hi Jason,

I think your point above is very important and has to be grasped by anyone wanting to move their practice onto a different level.

I am of the mind that many who practice with uke fully resisting will impede their process as they will almost certainlly engage the major muscles. I agree the light pressure approach allows for the sensitivity required to know when the major muscles kick in. Once the conditioning is in place, then higher stess testing is possible as the conditioned body will relax and only use what is minimally neccessary to moved the opponent.

Quote:
For instance, hold your hand out in front of you and have someone push on it. If you relax your shoulders as completely as possible what tpyically happens is that your shoulder will kind of collapse back. If you force your shoulder to not collapse, the rest of the shoulder will engage pretty quickly. If you do the same thing with just a small amount of force you can suppot it, but without the shoulder collapsing and without the major muscles kicking in to support it. If you do that for a little while you'll find that the shoulder becomes capable of supporting more force while retaining that same relaxed strength as it had when you were being pushed on with little to no force. Every joint in the body can be conditioned in a similarly, but the major ones that seem to often get in the way are the shoulders/chest, lower back and pelvis area.
This seems to me to be pretty close to one of Tohei's ki development exercises

Quote:
Getting under someone without dropping your center just means that you are directing force at them, lower than their center of gravity. Imagine a steel pole buried in the ground. Since the pole doesn't flex or give in any way, you could say that it is an extension of the ground. With enough of the above you would get to a point that by keeping yoru body relaxed you are like that pole, a conduit to the ground and when you move your forces are originating from the ground so that everythign you put out is always lower than the other person.
I like that visualization, I will play with that one if I may.

I offer the clip below as an exercise for anyone to try as I think it relates well to the thread OP

Quote:
Recently I found I could describe some of this to my class in a different way than I had before. And I offer it as an opportunity for you to try out and let me know what you experience from your perspective. Let me say though, I have only done this with my own students and have not tested it out on an outsider like you describe in your post above.

I have uke hold my wrists and push them towards my body, trapping them at the top of leg groin area ( a groundpath is established of course). Then I imagine this - My arms are like two ropes and have no strength of their own. My one point/hara/dantien call it what you will is like a balloon that has pressure inside it. The pressure from the uke on the outside is eqaul to the pressure from the hara on the inside, there is equilibrium and my hands are 'trapped' between the two opposing forces. Then and this is where the interesting stuff starts, I mentally increase the pressure/ki from the inside, so the balloon starts to get bigger and bigger. At all times I feel my hands and arms are like innocent bystanders, as they remain squashed between uke and the internal pressure of the balloon. As a connection has already been made with uke at the start, I never fail to move uke backwards with surprising ease.

Similar to the exercise you describe ( I've seen it on vid). But maybe with the difference of my weird way of thinking.

I love this stuff, it is what keeps me going and looking for more effective ways of doing things.

It is good that there are people honestly searching for things that others don't believe exist or dont want to believe or can't be bothered to put the time in to discover. In reallity though if it works it works. How we describe it will be subjective and hopefully some will manage to objectify what is realy going on.
regards,

Mark

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Old 05-09-2011, 12:18 PM   #14
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Re: Kodo Horikawa's aiki

I see these tricks like they have nothing to do with aikido.

Aikido is a dynamic interaction between nage and uke, where they roles interchange constantly. Such static attacks like on the video are done in aikido ONLY where you are teaching complete beginners a new technique. The main point is, when an attack is about to touch your body, the technique is already finished. That is possible because you are controlling an attacker from the moment the attack starts in his mind. If you don’t do that, you are doing a merely some kind of jujutsu.

Aikido is happening BEFORE contact.

Nagababa

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Old 05-09-2011, 02:37 PM   #15
Mark Freeman
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Re: Kodo Horikawa's aiki

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I see these tricks like they have nothing to do with aikido.

Aikido is a dynamic interaction between nage and uke, where they roles interchange constantly. Such static attacks like on the video are done in aikido ONLY where you are teaching complete beginners a new technique. The main point is, when an attack is about to touch your body, the technique is already finished. That is possible because you are controlling an attacker from the moment the attack starts in his mind. If you don't do that, you are doing a merely some kind of jujutsu.

Aikido is happening BEFORE contact.
I less see them as tricks than as exercises and why confine anything to beginners, even the most basic exercises can be practiced at the highest levels?

I agree with the main body of your post though, aikido does happen before contact,

regards

Mark

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Old 05-09-2011, 02:43 PM   #16
Gerardo Torres
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Re: Kodo Horikawa's aiki

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
I see these tricks like they have nothing to do with aikido.

Aikido is a dynamic interaction between nage and uke, where they roles interchange constantly. Such static attacks like on the video are done in aikido ONLY where you are teaching complete beginners a new technique. The main point is, when an attack is about to touch your body, the technique is already finished. That is possible because you are controlling an attacker from the moment the attack starts in his mind. If you don't do that, you are doing a merely some kind of jujutsu.

Aikido is happening BEFORE contact.
These are no mere tricks but demonstrations of the same type of aiki and body skills that Ueshiba used in his aikido -- the engine that drove his techniques. Ueshiba and Kodo were both Daito-ryu men. Ueshiba in particular did it for 20 years; you don't just shake that training out of your body.

The aiki and body skills demonstrated in this video and by Ueshiba are not just tricks for showmanship. They are demonstrations of how a body can move with or without physical interaction with an opponent. I am also sure there is a lesson being delivered behind these demonstrations, we just can't see them in their full context in the video.

Before physical interaction occurs, a trained body like Kodo's or Ueshiba's allows them to move in a more unified way, which results in less telegraphing, increased speed and power, all while keeping superior balance in all directions. These skills improve "irimi" and all the elements needed to dominate in the preamble of an attack, including "intention". So the advantages are not limited to just static drills but apply before, during and after physical contact happens.

Non-trained bodies rely too much on momentum, uke giving you their center (levels of compliance vary but are nowhere near the resistance a trained body can handle), over-use of major muscles, torquing, pulling, pushing, power vs. power (tactile pressure). As resistance increases, these deficiencies become even more obvious, resulting in more and more torquing, muscling, and "assaulting" of the uke, in other words stylized force vs force and violence masked as aiki. A trained body minimizes all of this, making everything more efficient -- bujutsu -- and in my view providing the best possible set of skills to realize aikido's goal of controlling an opponent without resorting to violence.

My $0.02.
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Old 05-09-2011, 04:15 PM   #17
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Re: Kodo Horikawa's aiki

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These are no mere tricks but demonstrations of the same type of aiki and body skills that Ueshiba used in his aikido -- the engine that drove his techniques. Ueshiba and Kodo were both Daito-ryu men. Ueshiba in particular did it for 20 years; you don't just shake that training out of your body.

The aiki and body skills demonstrated in this video and by Ueshiba are not just tricks for showmanship. They are demonstrations of how a body can move with or without physical interaction with an opponent. I am also sure there is a lesson being delivered behind these demonstrations, we just can't see them in their full context in the video.

Before physical interaction occurs, a trained body like Kodo's or Ueshiba's allows them to move in a more unified way, which results in less telegraphing, increased speed and power, all while keeping superior balance in all directions. These skills improve "irimi" and all the elements needed to dominate in the preamble of an attack, including "intention". So the advantages are not limited to just static drills but apply before, during and after physical contact happens.

Non-trained bodies rely too much on momentum, uke giving you their center (levels of compliance vary but are nowhere near the resistance a trained body can handle), over-use of major muscles, torquing, pulling, pushing, power vs. power (tactile pressure). As resistance increases, these deficiencies become even more obvious, resulting in more and more torquing, muscling, and "assaulting" of the uke, in other words stylized force vs force and violence masked as aiki. A trained body minimizes all of this, making everything more efficient -- bujutsu -- and in my view providing the best possible set of skills to realize aikido's goal of controlling an opponent without resorting to violence.

My $0.02.
I disagree. On this video, as well as all others Daito ryu trick, there is no interaction before contact or after, because all they are completely static. Not only nage is static but also uke. It is really hilarious, uke is not even adjusting his position one inch even if he can, and instead he is falling down like a stiff piece of wood. What prevent them from moving?? -- convention of training. Such convention is radically contrary to aikido principles as developed by Founder.

Example: In aikido, if nage is attacked by multiple attackers, he will move out of circle and will choose opponent and go to him. In Daito ryu, nage is staying in the middle of the attackers, and they will attacking him, again by convention, one by one, and nage without moving will pill them up.

So Daito ryu trick are counterproductive to develop aikido principles.

You are talking about resistance -- there is no resistance possible in Daito ryu training (except one dojo of Sagawa sensei), particularly when they do these tricks. Simply because with uke that is "alive' (only adjusting his position) none of these tricks would work for real. In contrary in aikido there large room for training with resistance and counters (because of freedom of movement) that develop really trained body.

I don't believe that sitting and doing tricks will develop anything good to prevent a real violence. Free movement -- yes of course.
You are talking about training of "intention". Static practice is not developing any intention. Everything is preprogrammed; there is no question to develop anything like that. To really develop intention you have to get rid off all preprogrammed exercises and radically static uke. It is done in aikido by spontaneous dynamic attacks in jiu waza.

Nagababa

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Old 05-09-2011, 04:23 PM   #18
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Re: Kodo Horikawa's aiki

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I disagree. .
how about just starting another thread so you can discuss whatever it is you want to discuss and not cluttering this one up?
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Old 05-09-2011, 05:06 PM   #19
Howard Popkin
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Re: Kodo Horikawa's aiki

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
I disagree. On this video, as well as all others Daito ryu trick, there is no interaction before contact or after, because all they are completely static. Not only nage is static but also uke. It is really hilarious, uke is not even adjusting his position one inch even if he can, and instead he is falling down like a stiff piece of wood. What prevent them from moving?? -- convention of training. Such convention is radically contrary to aikido principles as developed by Founder.

Example: In aikido, if nage is attacked by multiple attackers, he will move out of circle and will choose opponent and go to him. In Daito ryu, nage is staying in the middle of the attackers, and they will attacking him, again by convention, one by one, and nage without moving will pill them up.

So Daito ryu trick are counterproductive to develop aikido principles.

You are talking about resistance -- there is no resistance possible in Daito ryu training (except one dojo of Sagawa sensei), particularly when they do these tricks. Simply because with uke that is "alive' (only adjusting his position) none of these tricks would work for real. In contrary in aikido there large room for training with resistance and counters (because of freedom of movement) that develop really trained body.

I don't believe that sitting and doing tricks will develop anything good to prevent a real violence. Free movement -- yes of course.
You are talking about training of "intention". Static practice is not developing any intention. Everything is preprogrammed; there is no question to develop anything like that. To really develop intention you have to get rid off all preprogrammed exercises and radically static uke. It is done in aikido by spontaneous dynamic attacks in jiu waza.
When was the last time you were in a Daitoryu dojo with a qualified instructor ?

Just curious.

Howard
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Old 05-09-2011, 09:17 PM   #20
NagaBaba
 
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Re: Kodo Horikawa's aiki

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote: View Post
When was the last time you were in a Daitoryu dojo with a qualified instructor ?

Just curious.

Howard
Hello Howard,
The topic is not about me, lets not turn it to personal attacks
Jason, you are right, I'm going back to lurking.

Nagababa

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Old 05-09-2011, 09:20 PM   #21
Howard Popkin
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Re: Kodo Horikawa's aiki

This was not a personal attack at all, just curious what personal, hands on experience you are relating this to.

Best regards,

Howard

Last edited by Howard Popkin : 05-09-2011 at 09:20 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 05-09-2011, 09:54 PM   #22
hughrbeyer
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Re: Kodo Horikawa's aiki

@Michael, A story from another domain: My brother-in-law is trained in classical ballet. He says that they are taught, when doing a leg lift, to visualize pushing up the leg with the muscles underneath, rather than pulling it with the muscles on top.

Now, at least according to classical physiology, this is nonsense. You can't push with a muscle. But ballet is a very demanding discipline--they wouldn't be telling each other this if it didn't work. Something about that visualization ("Keep weight underside"?) works for making the body move correctly.

@Szczepan, your first point is that these exercises are tricks because they're static. No, they're static because they're exercises. Once you get the feel you certainly can use the same principles to receive an attack, take balance, and move uke throughout a technique. All the masters, starting with O-Sensei, showed "tricks" like this. Think they were just amusing themselves?

That said, I wish senior aikidoka wouldn't show stuff like is later on that vid, not unless they can do it with a trained MMA fighter on the other end. Aikido should be about expanding the range and flexibility of responses possible in a martial situation. Demonstrating how you have trained your ukes to limit the range of their responses to the point where they can't get out of an invisible box doesn't seem like much of an advertisement to me.
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Old 05-10-2011, 04:42 AM   #23
Michael Varin
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Re: Kodo Horikawa's aiki

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote:
there was a study using Kuroda sensei as the subject.

http://budoshugyosha.over-blog.com/a...-65641305.html

http://budoshugyosha.over-blog.com/a...-65721885.html

Kuroda sensei used small amount of biceps and mostly triceps and grand dorsal for up and down movement compared to normal folks. same with the horizontal cut movement. it's not that he didn't use the other muscles normal folks used to move their arms, but he used much less of them.
Looks somewhat interesting.

Unfortunately, my wife is already asleep, so I can't really understand the French. (Fortunately, I can avoid the "you've been with my for eight years and you still don't know French" criticisms that go along with my requests for translations!)

It looks to me like it wasn't so much that Kuroda used "less" of the muscles, but that he used them in different ways or at different times.

I am guessing that the center of the graphs, where the activity peaks, is the downward cut. Everything is pretty much as I would expect it to be.

The major difference is that the "amateur" keeps excessive tension in his biceps & triceps while holding the sword in kamae and during the raise. And I would bet the major difference in the activity of the trapezius, is that Kuroda is retracting the scapula, while the "amateur" is elevating the scapula.

By far the biggest flaw in this "study" was the failure to monitor the activity of the deltoids.

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote:
now it would be even more interesting if they have done the full body monitoring. would be interesting to find out what his lower body doing at the same time.
Agreed.

Bottom line, muscles move our body. No matter how much some people seem to wish otherwise. So maybe we should just learn to use them the right way, instead of pretending like we don't use them at all.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 05-10-2011, 04:45 AM   #24
Michael Varin
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Re: Kodo Horikawa's aiki

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote:
Muscle use is still involved, there's no way around it, but you're avoiding using the major muscles as completely as possible. Our view of the role of muscles in the body is horrible incomplete. Spend some time searching on the myofascial connections of muscles and you'll quickly see how medical science is just now starting to recognize the more connected nature of the muscles of our body and how those connections can be strengthed without focusing on localized development as we know it (biceps, triceps, etc etc).
Muscles perform a variety of roles: prime movers, synergists, stabilizers, fixators, neutralizers, antagonists.

So what does it mean to avoid "using the major muscles as completely as possible"? Which muscles would be preferable? In what ways?

I do believe that strength, on any level, is a skill. It involves the nervous system, coordination, and technique, amongst other factors. Regardless of what science has and will recognize, the physical world is what it is. I doubt anyone who ever seriously attempted to gain strength found isolated use of the muscles to aid them in their endeavor.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 05-10-2011, 08:24 AM   #25
chillzATL
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Re: Kodo Horikawa's aiki

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Muscles perform a variety of roles: prime movers, synergists, stabilizers, fixators, neutralizers, antagonists.

So what does it mean to avoid "using the major muscles as completely as possible"? Which muscles would be preferable? In what ways?
It means just that Michael, to avoid using the major muscles as completely as possible. I'm not sure how to say it more clearly, but if you do anything that requires those big ole mass moving muscles and then try to do while avoiding using those muscles, you'll figure it out. As for what muscles, I don't know man. I don't have the background or vocabulary to answer that and while I find the knowing and understanding part cool and complimetary, I don't think it's going to change what I'm doing or make it any clearer for anyone else.

Quote:
I do believe that strength, on any level, is a skill. It involves the nervous system, coordination, and technique, amongst other factors. Regardless of what science has and will recognize, the physical world is what it is. I doubt anyone who ever seriously attempted to gain strength found isolated use of the muscles to aid them in their endeavor.
One only has to look at the changes in the strength and conditioning world over the last decade or so to know that your statement is incorrect. It wasn't long ago that strength training was done body builder style. Work the biceps, triceps, shoulders, back, etc, all in isolation. Now there is a shift to more "real work" type exercises. Flipping tractor tires, swinging hammers, climbing ropes, etc, because it better translates into actual usable strength.
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