Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-06-2011, 12:16 PM   #1
abraxis
 
abraxis's Avatar
Location: New England
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 185
United_States
Offline
Is Aikido an Art Form?

As someone who is new to discussions of Aikido I get the impression that many discussions and questions center on what real Aikido is, how to do it properly,what is its true purpose, are we being faithful to the founder, what is the roll of skill versus spirit etcetera. Many aspects of these discussions appear to be attempting to define the indefinable or measure the unmeasurable. That doesn't keep many of us from using words, logic, reason, belief, and our practice of Aikido to help us answer questions we feel need to be asked and answered. But there doesn't ever seem to be universal agreement. Is this because Aikido is beyond logic, science, linguistics and the other disciplines we all find so useful in our daily pursuits?. From my brief experience, the rational and the empirical do not appear to offer much help in resolving these issues despite the most diligent attempts over many years by any number of scholarly and dedicated individuals who have achieved international recognition for their practice and teaching of Aikido. Is this because Aikido is beyond all these approaches? Is it because at its center Aikido is an Art Form and as such will not reveal itself or be defined by any of these methods?
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2011, 12:18 PM   #2
tlk52
Dojo: Aikido of Park Slope/NY Aikikai
Location: NYC
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 105
United_States
Offline
Re: Is Aikido an Art Form?

I believe that, Yes, it is and Art form
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2011, 12:45 PM   #3
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,153
United_States
Offline
Re: Is Aikido an Art Form?

Quote:
Rudy Ternbach wrote: View Post
But there doesn't ever seem to be universal agreement. Is this because Aikido is beyond logic, science, linguistics and the other disciplines we all find so useful in our daily pursuits?.
No, it's because you just don't get universal agreement on anything, no matter how logical or scientific its basis. That doesn't mean that aikido is something that can best be described in logical or scientific terms; it just means that even if it were, that wouldn't be sufficient to get us to universal agreement. We humans are contrary critters!
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2011, 01:04 PM   #4
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Location: Florida Gulf coast
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,878
United_States
Offline
Re: Is Aikido an Art Form?

IMHO, it depends on the person.
For many its a hobby.
For some its a craft.
For a few its an art.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2011, 01:09 PM   #5
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,222
United_States
Offline
Re: Is Aikido an Art Form?

What Mary said. I think part of the difficulty is the approach Kaiso had. It would be one thing if Aikido were only a single set of specific movements, but it changed over time and was placed into such a large context that I think the limitations of human logic and understanding stand out like they do. For me it's like so much of the poetry of Emily Dickenson: it's compelling, it brings all kinds of possible meanings to the mind, but damned if I know exactly what she was talking about with any certainty. That said, I think it's definately an art form.

An analogous lecture by one of my all-time heroes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkhBcLk_8f0
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2011, 01:10 PM   #6
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,299
Offline
Re: Is Aikido an Art Form?

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
IMHO, it depends on the person.
For many its a hobby.
For some its a craft.
For a few its an art.
It is what you want it to be and what you make it to be.

dps
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2011, 01:54 PM   #7
guest1234567
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 428
Spain
Offline
Re: Is Aikido an Art Form?

Hi Rudy,
Reading this forum you will find a lot of opinions of what aikido is, today I read a very nice description from a spanish Aikido teacher who wrote a few books for beginners, in the blog is a tool to translate the article http://aikidolarraona.blogspot.com/2...el-aikido.html. I hope it can help you a bit.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2011, 02:15 PM   #8
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Is Aikido an Art Form?

Rudy.
What is art? What is an art form? For me the answer lies in these two questions.

When an artist is learning how to draw he is learning certain principles and practicing applying them to paper. During this process he or she learns more principles and practices applying them also until a certain level of skill is achieved.

After much study and practice the 'apprentice' learns many skills until he can put them together in a harmonious fashion and thus produce a picture. Aha! Art!!! Thus the picture is an art form and the painter is an artist.

I remember watching a plasterer doing a friends room with high ceilings and he was using stilts. Everything was so smoothly done and looked so darned easy that I remember thinking 'Wow, this guys turned plastering into an art form.'

Thus when I see a great sports star like Zinadine Zidane in football who has gone beyond the normal skill level and now turned his application into an art form I can but only admire the scene.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2011, 02:15 PM   #9
Alberto_Italiano
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 296
Offline
Re: Is Aikido an Art Form?

IMHO - regardless of the fact Aikido seems to lend itself too much to speculation (the complexity of a few techiniques is such, that you need a very accommodating uke to train with them - this may eventually lead to the consolidation of a "fictional" aikido, with the consequent misinterpretation of it as something highly speculative. But Aikido is not speculative: bad aikidokas like me can be).

Anyway - any Martial Art can become an Art.
To me, this expression has a meaning only if the Martial side is never forfeited in the process - which sadly often happens, and the "art" part of "Martial Art" takes easily (and cheaply) the lead.

So, what is, again IMHO, that makes _any_ Martial Art an Art?
The domination of the violent setting - and I can never emphasize enough the term: violence.

A Martial Art is an Art when it can deal with brutality and violence, mastering them.

The challenges that a competent attacker intent indeed to the goal of seriously and badly injuring you, are incredibly complex and immensely difficult to be coped with.

Psychologically, facing a real & competent attacker will ignite immediately the whole set of our most atavic encephalic features: F-E-A-R, and LOTS of it. It may paralyze you, or may make you do the most unconsiderate movements.

You have to dominate that.

You have then to dominate the noise - it may seem immaterial, but some real fights may involve a lot of scaring noise - from verbalized threats to blasts to crashing objects to people screaming. It may include gunfire cracks. You need to be able to keep your focus also if stuff is going into pieces around you.

You have to dominate pain. It does not matter how good your techniques are, the chances a real attacker will hit you are consistent.
Breaking ons's lip is a matter of nothing, the most clumsy blow thrown WITHOUT boxing gloves at one's mouth is normally enough to make an upper lip go immediately asunder.

If you get blows on your chin, you will see flashlights (do you know the saying "seeing the stars?"...). If you get blows on your mandibula, you may feel your ankles fail in a funny and irresistible manner (that's why people can be knocked down...). If you get a blow on your ears, it causes an abrupt variation of pressure and you will feel a funny sensation as if a bell has rung into your head (do you know the saying "hearing bells?"...).
One blow on your eyebrows may cause significant bleeding, whose main concern is that it may blind one of your eyes, besides scaring you because you've no clear assessment of the damage endured.
Oh, and you can get a broken nose, of course. One lucky and unexpected blow may suffice.
So, you also neede to be able to take a LOT of punishment (for: it may happen!) and yet go on, being aware it's not over till it's not over.

Then you must be able to keep a visual of the whole situation: no closing your eyes under incoming hands.

Then you must be able, in Aikido, to vary your technical approach instantly, on the spot, following your opponent's movements.
You also need not to panic if a technique fails. Techniques should flow out of you like water from a tap.

And these, to mention just a few.

To be sure, I don't know how to do all these things.
It can come only with serious practice.

To me, IMHO, being able to do that, _is_ Art.
Quintessentially. And regardless of the name of the Art, be it Aikido, hapkido, Karate, or Boxing.

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 05-06-2011 at 02:26 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2011, 02:32 PM   #10
guest1234567
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 428
Spain
Offline
Re: Is Aikido an Art Form?

Hi Rudy again,
According to Wikipedia: Art is the product or process of deliberately arranging items (often with symbolic significance) in a way that influences and affects one or more of the senses, emotions, and intellect.
Yes, Aikido is an Art Form.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2011, 02:43 PM   #11
abraxis
 
abraxis's Avatar
Location: New England
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 185
United_States
Offline
Re: Is Aikido an Art Form?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote:

....An analogous lecture by one of my all-time heroes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkhBcLk_8f0
Surely you're joking, Mr.Gano.

Last edited by akiy : 05-06-2011 at 03:13 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2011, 03:38 PM   #12
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,217
Spain
Offline
Re: Is Aikido an Art Form?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
An analogous lecture by one of my all-time heroes:...
You don't cease to amaze me.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2011, 04:01 PM   #13
abraxis
 
abraxis's Avatar
Location: New England
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 185
United_States
Offline
Re: Is Aikido an Art Form?

Quote:
Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
Hi Rudy again,
According to Wikipedia: Art is the product or process of deliberately arranging items (often with symbolic significance) in a way that influences and affects one or more of the senses, emotions, and intellect.
Yes, Aikido is an Art Form.
I agree completely with you Carina but a quick reading leads me to think the Wikipedia entry needs to be extensively revised.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2011, 04:06 PM   #14
abraxis
 
abraxis's Avatar
Location: New England
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 185
United_States
Offline
Re: Is Aikido an Art Form?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
...What is art? What is an art form? For me the answer lies in these two questions. ....Thus when I see a great sports star like Zinadine Zidane in football who has gone beyond the normal skill level and now turned his application into an art form I can but only admire the scene. Regards.G.
So Graham, you know it when you see it. I feel the same way.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2011, 04:14 PM   #15
abraxis
 
abraxis's Avatar
Location: New England
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 185
United_States
Offline
Re: Is Aikido an Art Form?

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
IMHO, it depends on the person.
For many its a hobby.
For some its a craft.
For a few its an art.
True, Not all who practice are artists but for some it is their form of artistic expression.

Last edited by abraxis : 05-06-2011 at 04:23 PM. Reason: Didn't say what I meant the first time.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2011, 05:07 PM   #16
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,217
Spain
Offline
Re: Is Aikido an Art Form?

Aikido is not an art. It has some commonalities with the religio-aesthetic tradition of Japan but is not an art in the western aesthetics sense of the word. .

BTW,

Quote:
Is this because Aikido is beyond logic, science, linguistics and the other disciplines we all find so useful in our daily pursuits?. From my brief experience, the rational and the empirical do not appear to offer much help in resolving these issues despite the most diligent attempts over many years by any number of scholarly and dedicated individuals who have achieved international recognition for their practice and teaching of Aikido. Is this because Aikido is beyond all these approaches?
I'd say these attempts have been (a) not so diligent and (b) mediated with lot of agendas and politics. This is the cause of today's confusion.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2011, 05:41 PM   #17
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,334
Offline
Re: Is Aikido an Art Form?

As a visual artist, and one who has pondered all sides of the art/artisan/craft issue for many years....I would say aikido is not an art in the sense that painting or dance or poetry are art.

There *are* analogies that can be made in terms of the process: most artists spend time learning a certain amount of technique or craft in order to have the technical chops to do decent creative work. In endeavors like aikido or golf, one works on the technical craft and eventually does something that is uniquely that person's own version of it.

But I don't think that personalized touch or style = "art."

A throw may be pretty, a swooping roll elegant, a person's randori termed "artfully done" because it was nice to watch..... but generally the goal of aikido is to do something with one's partner that has martial intent and outcome. If the goal going into the process of bowing onto the mat and moving towards one's partner is explicitly to create an experience for the benefit of others who are viewing it, we are viewing dance, so that might be art....but then I don't know that it's aikido anymore.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2011, 06:18 PM   #18
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,222
United_States
Offline
Re: Is Aikido an Art Form?

...ok maybe not. I was just trying to find something on uncertainty that I thought could relate.
Too much trying to see the world in a grain of sand maybe.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2011, 07:21 PM   #19
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,222
United_States
Offline
Re: Is Aikido an Art Form?

Quote:
dictionary.com on art wrote:
the quality, production, expression, or realm, according to aesthetic principles, of what is beautiful, appealing, or of more than ordinary significance.
I guess it probably can't be "art" in the sense of "gei" (http://japanese.about.com/library/bl...2_geijutsu.htm )
but in a broader sense of the term maybe it still works. The individualized interpretations of what is of "more than ordinary significance" seems to imply an art quality doesn't it? Thoughts on that? Safer to say Aikido can be an art form, maybe.
At what point does a bunch of oil (or other items) on a surface cease/start being art? When someone finds it beautiful?
Take care,
Matt
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2011, 07:45 PM   #20
RonRagusa
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 782
United_States
Offline
Re: Is Aikido an Art Form?

Art is in the eye of the artist. What other people think is irrelevant. Aikido is an art form.

Ron

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2011, 07:50 PM   #21
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,222
United_States
Offline
Re: Is Aikido an Art Form?

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Art is in the eye of the artist. What other people think is irrelevant. Aikido is an art form.

Ron
This is irrelevant. But I agree.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2011, 08:26 AM   #22
abraxis
 
abraxis's Avatar
Location: New England
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 185
United_States
Offline
Re: Is Aikido an Art Form?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Aikido is not an art....these attempts have been (a) not so diligent and (b) mediated with lot of agendas and politics....
Doesn't that depend on who was doing it? Do you feel this lack of diligence and excess of politics was the case for all 8th, 9th, and even 10th Dan Shihans? Were none of them artists? The impression I got from watching Mitsunari Kanai, Shihan, 8th Dan, was that he was a true artist.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2011, 10:16 AM   #23
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,217
Spain
Offline
Re: Is Aikido an Art Form?

Quote:
Rudy Ternbach wrote: View Post
Doesn't that depend on who was doing it?
No.

Quote:
Do you feel this lack of diligence and excess of politics was the case for all 8th, 9th, and even 10th Dan Shihans?
I can't talk for all of them, but imho, and for various motives, politics, partishanship and poor scholarship has been (and still is) the norm in aikido community

Quote:
Were none of them artists?
What if some of them were. That doesn't makes aikido itself an art, what it makes is some people practised aikido as an art, as others practised it as a budo, and others practised it as a business, and others practised it as a shugyo, others as a cult and so on.

Quote:
The impression I got from watching Mitsunari Kanai, Shihan, 8th Dan, was that he was a true artist
But as he is not with us we can't ask him about if your impression is correct and if he viewed himself as an artist or not.

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 05-07-2011 at 10:29 AM. Reason: poor grammar
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2011, 10:27 AM   #24
abraxis
 
abraxis's Avatar
Location: New England
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 185
United_States
Offline
Re: Is Aikido an Art Form?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
....But as he is not with us we can't ask him about if your impression is correct and if he viewed himself and artist or not.
My impression is based not just on what I saw but also on what I heard him say. "Aikido is an Art but it is a Martial Art"--Kanai Shihan, Cambridge, Masstts, 1976. I'm not making this up. I would only add, and this is, from what I can gather and that's not much I admit, it is in the category of Performance Art.

Best regards,

Rudy

Last edited by abraxis : 05-07-2011 at 10:29 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2011, 10:37 AM   #25
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,217
Spain
Offline
Re: Is Aikido an Art Form?

Well, it seems Kanai Shihan was into Klens-Bigman's (or viceversa) but I'm not sure if I agree with that view or if I'm understanding you.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido Reuben General 126 02-17-2015 10:56 PM
Aikido & "The old form of the posture in kenjutsu" Erick Mead Techniques 0 02-01-2010 03:18 PM
Aikido - Martial Arts - Fighting George S. Ledyard External Aikido Blog Posts 54 09-18-2009 07:23 AM
The Practice of Aikido George S. Ledyard External Aikido Blog Posts 21 06-23-2009 07:31 PM
AikiWeb Raffle for Mary Heiny Sensei akiy General 68 05-27-2008 11:37 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:16 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2017 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2017 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate