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Old 05-05-2011, 07:26 PM   #126
Chris Li
 
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
Well, what vocabulary do you use?
Well, vocabulary that we all understand. The reason that it's hard to describe to someone you've never met is the same reason why it's hard (impossible, I would say) to learn Aikido from a book to any reasonable level. Could you learn to be an opera singer from a book? Probably not - but if you were already an opera singer you could probably get a fair amount of useful information from that book.

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-05-2011, 07:41 PM   #127
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
It matters because the people who is teaching it are not aikido instructors.
There are Aikido instructors studying and teaching this, as I said before.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
A handful of them, on their own, in a world with thousands of aikido dojo.
Ten dojo or a hundred, I'm not sure that it matters that much. What matters is that the information is being publicly taught and is spreading. How many people were teaching Aikido in 1935? One, in a world with thousands of martial arts dojo.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
But it makes a difference. IP/Aiki has to be obtained outside of aikido. For an art which claims to be the path of Aiki having to go outside for it is sad, and it's sadder that this fact is not going to change.
Where did Ueshiba go for Aiki? Why would it be wrong to go to the source if there is something that you don't understand? And as I said, there are already "recognized Aikido shihan" studying and teaching this stuff, so it has already changed.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Did you train with founder? Sorry, I was not aware of that.
And you point is what? I've been in Aikido long enough to form a reasonable opinion. Watanabe trained with the founder, Saito trained with the founder - they had very different opinions. Training with the founder is no magic touchstone for veracity.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Semantics.
Okay, explain to me semantically why something that is being taught publicly is an "underground art".

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I'm not waiting anymore Chris, I went back to "sports" time ago. No more leaps of faith for me.
And yet - you're still spending day after day hanging around on Aikido forums...

It's really not much of a leap - all it takes is a weekend workshop.

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-05-2011, 07:41 PM   #128
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Hi Jason,

I think I understad what you mean and I've also looking to fix my issues with aikido (going outside aikido, of course, I'm a lost cause for aikido) and helping others to find quality IP/Aiki instruction also outside of aikido because, the people who is teaching it, people like Dan, Mike, Ark, Howard, Ushiro, etc., are not aikido instructors.
I think that's just the reality that we have to accept for now and IMO, it's not a bad thing. It makes it difficult as far as integrating these things into aikido as a whole, but that's temporary. There's going to be a point in the future where the people who are just jr. instructors (if that even) in their orgs now are going to be the shihans and are going to be running the show. So how they do things and what they integrate in their training is up to them. THat's when change will happen. Looking to change things from the bottom up, now, is a lost cause i'm afraid. at least in the larger orgs and such. Smaller orgs or independant dojos have a much easier time of it. The next 20 years could, no should, be a very interesting time for aikido as a whole.
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Old 05-05-2011, 07:44 PM   #129
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Well, vocabulary that we all understand. The reason that it's hard to describe to someone you've never met is the same reason why it's hard (impossible, I would say) to learn Aikido from a book to any reasonable level. Could you learn to be an opera singer from a book? Probably not - but if you were already an opera singer you could probably get a fair amount of useful information from that book.

Best,

Chris
Well, why not try and describe it? There seems to be plenty of people on Aikiweb who have attended various Internal Strength seminars at this stage, notwithstanding their own training.

At best, you might find that concepts chime with other people's experiences and that will help clarify one's own understanding. At worst, well, nobody will know what you're talking about, so no harm done Aikiweb is a discussion forum, after all.
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Old 05-05-2011, 08:02 PM   #130
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
Well, why not try and describe it? There seems to be plenty of people on Aikiweb who have attended various Internal Strength seminars at this stage, notwithstanding their own training.

At best, you might find that concepts chime with other people's experiences and that will help clarify one's own understanding. At worst, well, nobody will know what you're talking about, so no harm done Aikiweb is a discussion forum, after all.
Well I have, in other forums, but I don't want to get into too much detail because:
  1. As I said, there are inherent difficulties.
  2. My personal level is so abysmally low.

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-05-2011, 08:15 PM   #131
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Hi Chris,

Lets agree to disagree and that's all.

But,
Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
And you point is what? I've been in Aikido long enough to form a reasonable opinion. Watanabe trained with the founder, Saito trained with the founder - they had very different opinions. Training with the founder is no magic touchstone for veracity.
My point is that I didn't knew if you trained with the founder.

Quote:
Okay, explain to me semantically why something that is being taught publicly is an "underground art".
Graffiti is underground art, punk is underground music. Both are in public view but not mainstream.

Quote:
And yet - you're still spending day after day hanging around on Aikido forums...
And in other martial art forums, and reading books, and in the mat...sometimes one learns interesting things in unexpected places (and knows nice people too).

Quote:
It's really not much of a leap - all it takes is a weekend workshop.
Or a cheap camera and 5 minutes of tape. Five min. of your time demonstrating unequivocally the effects of IP/Aiki training to a guy in the other side of the world is asking too much?

BTW, I want to make clear I'm not saying IP/Aiki doesn't exist. What I'm saying is IP/Aiki training is not going to be found in the majority of aikido dojo around. The IP/Aiki proponents are not going to make aikido change.

Regards

@Jason,

I think you're overly optimistic. I hope to review this thread in 2030 and see which one of us is going to pay the beers.

Cheers.

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 05-05-2011 at 08:20 PM.
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Old 05-05-2011, 08:38 PM   #132
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Well I have, in other forums, but I don't want to get into too much detail because:
  1. As I said, there are inherent difficulties.
  2. My personal level is so abysmally low.

Best,

Chris
Fair enough, but you did comment that you had some level of understanding of what Shihan level practitioners (In Daito Ryu in this case) were doing from video clips.I believe you also have had some experience of DR when in Japan, so I was interested to read you point of views on this.

You also mentioned that senior teachers like Yamaguchi could do some skills, but could not explain or analyze what they were doing,
and that the "Japanese" model is an inferior vehicle for transmitting these skills compared to the "Western" model.

I don't disagree with this view BTW, but surely an open transmission of these skills includes open discussion an analysis?

Most people interested in this area are complete beginners in any event.
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Old 05-05-2011, 08:43 PM   #133
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
Tony,

If you were to walk into a room full of people whom you do not know and you start busting their balls and as a result, they didn't like you, would you honestly try to say that the problem is that they don't have a thick enough skin and that's why they don't get you? Are you kidding me? YOu seriously wouldn't for one second think that maybe, MAYBE, it's just that you're going a little to far before these people know you and maybe, just maybe you should take it back a notch so that they can get to know you a little so that through that relationship they cna better take your ball busting? It is you sir, who needs the reality check.
I don't think so Jason I really do think that many on AW are somewhat over sensitive and therein lies the reality check? It gives me an idea as to some of the characters in the "clique" that doesn't exist on this site, As for ball busting? ...... Blimey! If you guys are that sensitive maybe it's a good thing I am around.... at least it keeps it lively if nothing else Maybe I should use a feather and just tickle them, would that suit you?
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Old 05-05-2011, 09:18 PM   #134
graham christian
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

I must say that in all the videos pointed to of people doing ip I cannot see personally any relationship to what O'Sensei did.

I do see certain effects demonstrated and why that can lead to some calling them 'tricks' or indeed showing off. That doesn't mean what they are doing is not real but it doesn't impress me. Why? Because over the years I have learned many ways of doing things that look impressive and yet find in myself it's o.k. as part of learning but not what I call Aikido. In fact onlookers love those things and want to know how it's done but that to me defeats the purpose of doing Aikido unless I want to be a circus act.

When I watch O'Sensei the main and most enduring thing I see is harmonious motion. I see an ability to unerringly lead the attacker, to smoothly and magically almost 'dissappear' and 'reappear' due to his command over correct motion and spacial awareness. When the person attacks he is indeed already behind them.

Of course many who trained with O'Sensei were taken aback by his 'power' and and thus many have stated as much and yet I feel it is this point that leads people astray. How to be more powerful. So much said about his power and his strength and yet not so much emphasised on his Aiki motion. Thus people are blinded in my opinion.

I find those who also trained with O'Sensei and yet prefer to talk about and demonstrate principles and how they relate to harmonious motion, connection and tachnique generally do not do these 'impressive' demos of 'magical' (yet real,depending) power.

So back to the thread and Tomiki. Not my style and to bring a smile to tony's face-not my cup of tea, I'm quite'cosy' with what I do. But seriously though, when I watch the motions done, the basic motions in Tomiki I see sliding movement in all eight directions designed to harmonize and enter etc. Excellent. His aim as with most Aikido Shihans was to give a method that leads towards the goal of harmony.

These are my observations I have been drawn to offer be they as they are.

The only personal gripe I have really is 'when will people realize that true power lies in harmony.'

Regards.G.
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Old 05-05-2011, 09:21 PM   #135
Chris Li
 
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
Fair enough, but you did comment that you had some level of understanding of what Shihan level practitioners (In Daito Ryu in this case) were doing from video clips.I believe you also have had some experience of DR when in Japan, so I was interested to read you point of views on this.

You also mentioned that senior teachers like Yamaguchi could do some skills, but could not explain or analyze what they were doing,
and that the "Japanese" model is an inferior vehicle for transmitting these skills compared to the "Western" model.

I don't disagree with this view BTW, but surely an open transmission of these skills includes open discussion an analysis?

Most people interested in this area are complete beginners in any event.
I did a few years with various Daito-ryu groups, but I was never really a Daito-ryu guy. I went to a lot of Yamaguchi's classes - they were almost all the same, and almost nobody ever seemed to be doing quite what he was. My experience with Yamaguchi's students is that a few of them managed to get something at some level, but had a hard time explaining it or transmitting it themselves.

As I said, we discuss things openly - feel free to come by anytime

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-05-2011, 09:46 PM   #136
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
Fair enough, but you did comment that you had some level of understanding of what Shihan level practitioners (In Daito Ryu in this case) were doing from video clips.I believe you also have had some experience of DR when in Japan, so I was interested to read you point of views on this.

You also mentioned that senior teachers like Yamaguchi could do some skills, but could not explain or analyze what they were doing,
and that the "Japanese" model is an inferior vehicle for transmitting these skills compared to the "Western" model.

I don't disagree with this view BTW, but surely an open transmission of these skills includes open discussion an analysis?

Most people interested in this area are complete beginners in any event.
What exactly would you like to discuss and analyze Oisin? Just some aspect of internal power? While I do not disagree with Chris that it is a nebulous subject, I do feel it is one that can be discussed to some degree, with the caveat that you either have to at some point accept that what you're being told is possible or (and even better) actually get out and go work with some people who have some level of demonstrable skill so that you can feel that it possible.

Last edited by chillzATL : 05-05-2011 at 09:48 PM.
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Old 05-05-2011, 09:50 PM   #137
Gorgeous George
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I did a few years with various Daito-ryu groups, but I was never really a Daito-ryu guy. I went to a lot of Yamaguchi's classes - they were almost all the same, and almost nobody ever seemed to be doing quite what he was. My experience with Yamaguchi's students is that a few of them managed to get something at some level, but had a hard time explaining it or transmitting it themselves.

As I said, we discuss things openly - feel free to come by anytime

Best,

Chris
I'm curious: what do you think of Seishiro Endo sensei?
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Old 05-05-2011, 10:08 PM   #138
Chris Li
 
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
I'm curious: what do you think of Seishiro Endo sensei?
It's been more than 25 years since I spent much time in his classes at hombu. At the time, he was very personable and quite powerful, in the relaxed, Yamaguchi style. He used to sweep my feet out a lot.

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-06-2011, 05:06 AM   #139
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I must say that in all the videos pointed to of people doing ip I cannot see personally any relationship to what O'Sensei did.

I do see certain effects demonstrated and why that can lead to some calling them 'tricks' or indeed showing off. That doesn't mean what they are doing is not real but it doesn't impress me. Why? Because over the years I have learned many ways of doing things that look impressive and yet find in myself it's o.k. as part of learning but not what I call Aikido. In fact onlookers love those things and want to know how it's done but that to me defeats the purpose of doing Aikido unless I want to be a circus act.

When I watch O'Sensei the main and most enduring thing I see is harmonious motion. I see an ability to unerringly lead the attacker, to smoothly and magically almost 'dissappear' and 'reappear' due to his command over correct motion and spacial awareness. When the person attacks he is indeed already behind them.

Of course many who trained with O'Sensei were taken aback by his 'power' and and thus many have stated as much and yet I feel it is this point that leads people astray. How to be more powerful. So much said about his power and his strength and yet not so much emphasised on his Aiki motion. Thus people are blinded in my opinion.

I find those who also trained with O'Sensei and yet prefer to talk about and demonstrate principles and how they relate to harmonious motion, connection and tachnique generally do not do these 'impressive' demos of 'magical' (yet real,depending) power.

So back to the thread and Tomiki. Not my style and to bring a smile to tony's face-not my cup of tea, I'm quite'cosy' with what I do. But seriously though, when I watch the motions done, the basic motions in Tomiki I see sliding movement in all eight directions designed to harmonize and enter etc. Excellent. His aim as with most Aikido Shihans was to give a method that leads towards the goal of harmony.

These are my observations I have been drawn to offer be they as they are.

The only personal gripe I have really is 'when will people realize that true power lies in harmony.'

Regards.G.
.......
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Old 05-06-2011, 06:43 AM   #140
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I do see certain effects demonstrated and why that can lead to some calling them 'tricks' or indeed showing off. That doesn't mean what they are doing is not real but it doesn't impress me. Why? Because over the years I have learned many ways of doing things that look impressive and yet find in myself it's o.k. as part of learning but not what I call Aikido. In fact onlookers love those things and want to know how it's done but that to me defeats the purpose of doing Aikido unless I want to be a circus act.
I like this guy.
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Old 05-06-2011, 07:47 AM   #141
RonRagusa
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
When I watch O'Sensei the main and most enduring thing I see is harmonious motion.
Hi Graham -

Overall, nice post.

It's a shame that the word 'harmony' has developed such a, as Tony might say, 'woo-woo' reputation. When applied to two people moving relative to one another, the word simply describes motion in concert, not conflict.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Of course many who trained with O'Sensei were taken aback by his 'power' and and thus many have stated as much and yet I feel it is this point that leads people astray. How to be more powerful. So much said about his power and his strength and yet not so much emphasised on his Aiki motion. Thus people are blinded in my opinion.
Many of O Sensei's power demonstrations were related to pointing out how one can remain still, stable and centered while being stressed as a result of being pushed, pulled or lifted. Aikido happens when one combines this ability with harmonious motion. Without the ability to remain stable and centered while in motion it is easy for an attacker to take the defenders balance and turn the tables on him.

People get blinded on both sides of the divide, failing to realize that there is, in reality, no divide and that Aikido is a product of integrating both.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I find those who also trained with O'Sensei and yet prefer to talk about and demonstrate principles and how they relate to harmonious motion, connection and tachnique generally do not do these 'impressive' demos of 'magical' (yet real,depending) power.
When used at events in an effort to recruit students power demonstrations can prove to be an effective tool. Their real value however is in the role of exercises used to find and strengthen one's center.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
So back to the thread and Tomiki. Not my style and to bring a smile to tony's face-not my cup of tea, I'm quite'cosy' with what I do. But seriously though, when I watch the motions done, the basic motions in Tomiki I see sliding movement in all eight directions designed to harmonize and enter etc. Excellent. His aim as with most Aikido Shihans was to give a method that leads towards the goal of harmony.
Agreed. Just another path to travel. The ability to find Aikido along many different roads is part of what makes it such a rich and appealing art.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
The only personal gripe I have really is 'when will people realize that true power lies in harmony.'
Folks move along at their own pace Graham. At any given moment we are all where we are and moving forward. Transform your gripe into a wish and let it go.

Best to you.

Ron

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Old 05-06-2011, 09:17 AM   #142
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I did a few years with various Daito-ryu groups, but I was never really a Daito-ryu guy. I went to a lot of Yamaguchi's classes - they were almost all the same, and almost nobody ever seemed to be doing quite what he was. My experience with Yamaguchi's students is that a few of them managed to get something at some level, but had a hard time explaining it or transmitting it themselves.

As I said, we discuss things openly - feel free to come by anytime

Best,

Chris
Chris, thanks for the invitation. Hawaii and some training in Aiki sounds awesome. I actually mentioned to my wife a couple of months ago: "Hey, let's go to Hawaii for a little break!", and I got "the look", followed by "why do you suddenly want to go to Hawaii? You NEVER wanted to go to Hawaii before."

I think she suspects something

Oh well, I suppose I'm just going to have to keep feeding her the weather reports.

Regards,
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Old 05-06-2011, 09:49 AM   #143
oisin bourke
 
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
What exactly would you like to discuss and analyze Oisin? Just some aspect of internal power? While I do not disagree with Chris that it is a nebulous subject, I do feel it is one that can be discussed to some degree, with the caveat that you either have to at some point accept that what you're being told is possible or (and even better) actually get out and go work with some people who have some level of demonstrable skill so that you can feel that it possible.
Hi Jason,

What peaked my interest was Chris's comments about some Daito Ryu practitioners.

I don't know Chris personally, but I know that he has relatively extensive knowledge of training in Aikido and Daito Ryu, both inside Japan and out. Along with his knowledge of the language/culture and exposure to some internal practices recently, I'd find his comments well worth paying attention to.

That being said, if you, or others, who have had exposure to IP training would like to add comments on videos of Horikawa Kodo or Okamoto etc; as a DR practitioner, I'd love to read them.

I completely agree that there's no substitute for flesh and bone training, but this is a virtual discussion forum.

If one attempts to explain body/mind skills, I believe it helps the describer understand what they are (or are not) doing.

In any case, if you wish to comment, perhaps a new thread would be in order, as this is way off topic (my fault!)

Regards,
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Old 05-06-2011, 10:15 AM   #144
Chris Li
 
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
Chris, thanks for the invitation. Hawaii and some training in Aiki sounds awesome. I actually mentioned to my wife a couple of months ago: "Hey, let's go to Hawaii for a little break!", and I got "the look", followed by "why do you suddenly want to go to Hawaii? You NEVER wanted to go to Hawaii before."

I think she suspects something

Oh well, I suppose I'm just going to have to keep feeding her the weather reports.

Regards,
Dan will be coming down for a workshop 4th of July weekend and Mike will be coming down July 23/24. Takeshi Yamashima (who was one of Yamaguchi's long time students) will be coming down at the end of July (29/30/31). Plenty of fun this summer! (plenty of good weather too)

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-06-2011, 10:18 AM   #145
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Dan will be coming down for a workshop 4th of July weekend and Mike will be coming down July 23/24. Takeshi Yamashima (who was one of Yamaguchi's long time students) will be coming down at the end of July (29/30/31). Plenty of fun this summer! (plenty of good weather too)

Best,

Chris
Good God... You're killing me...
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Old 05-06-2011, 10:28 AM   #146
graham christian
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Hi Graham -

Overall, nice post.

It's a shame that the word 'harmony' has developed such a, as Tony might say, 'woo-woo' reputation. When applied to two people moving relative to one another, the word simply describes motion in concert, not conflict.

Many of O Sensei's power demonstrations were related to pointing out how one can remain still, stable and centered while being stressed as a result of being pushed, pulled or lifted. Aikido happens when one combines this ability with harmonious motion. Without the ability to remain stable and centered while in motion it is easy for an attacker to take the defenders balance and turn the tables on him.

People get blinded on both sides of the divide, failing to realize that there is, in reality, no divide and that Aikido is a product of integrating both.

When used at events in an effort to recruit students power demonstrations can prove to be an effective tool. Their real value however is in the role of exercises used to find and strengthen one's center.

Agreed. Just another path to travel. The ability to find Aikido along many different roads is part of what makes it such a rich and appealing art.

Folks move along at their own pace Graham. At any given moment we are all where we are and moving forward. Transform your gripe into a wish and let it go.

Best to you.

Ron
Hi Ron.

Just one point I need to clear here and that is hwat I meant by 'power'.

I agree that when O'Sensei did what you call power demonstrations they were for reasons as you describe ie: to show the potential we have to be stable in the face of and thus this being another major aspect of Aikido. However this I call stability and indeed lead people away from the view of this as power but rather to the view that they can gain the ability to increase their stability in the face of life, living, being attacked et.al.

This part of Aikido leads to a person in life being more able to face problems, wind ups, situations etc. without whining and complaining and so much more.

No, the 'power' of which I refer to is the use of principles in a way that sends someone flying or cavorting about in an uncontrolled manner or such like. To me this is an abuse of power and thus in my experience, done to the unaware I file as tricks.

The one thing I admire about the more traditional styles or so called harder styles is that they steer people away from that arrogance.

One thing I think many miss is the fact that any Shihan worth his salt should be teaching the students how to be more centered and stable too and if they did that then the studends wouldn't be flying off and cavorting about like bambi on ice.

Thus I see the good Shihans as those who demonstrate and share. The bad ones I see as those who demonstrate and boost their own ego.

Good talking to you. G.
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Old 05-06-2011, 10:44 AM   #147
chillzATL
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
Hi Jason,

What peaked my interest was Chris's comments about some Daito Ryu practitioners.

I don't know Chris personally, but I know that he has relatively extensive knowledge of training in Aikido and Daito Ryu, both inside Japan and out. Along with his knowledge of the language/culture and exposure to some internal practices recently, I'd find his comments well worth paying attention to.

That being said, if you, or others, who have had exposure to IP training would like to add comments on videos of Horikawa Kodo or Okamoto etc; as a DR practitioner, I'd love to read them.

I completely agree that there's no substitute for flesh and bone training, but this is a virtual discussion forum.

If one attempts to explain body/mind skills, I believe it helps the describer understand what they are (or are not) doing.

In any case, if you wish to comment, perhaps a new thread would be in order, as this is way off topic (my fault!)

Regards,
I have one video I can reference:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXNqdl3-KFo

Specifically the very beginning, but the principle he's demonstrating throughout is ok, though a bit too floppish. At least he's not doing the electricity type demo that is often seen.

Anyway, the beginning is to me, great. He's connecting to uke's center, getting under them and lifting his arms (and uke) without using his shoulders/chest/biceps, very smooth and relaxed and uke is actually putting some weight into him. It takes a very specific type of body training to be able to do that.

Have someone hold a jo arms lenght out from them, horizontal. you stand facinng them and also grab the jo at arms length and try to raise the jo up with them putting just a little bit of weight into the jo and see if you can do it using nothing but your arms, but without using yoru shoulders/chest/arms. To call it hard is a gross understatement.

now stand closer to the jo so that your hips are almost directly under the jo and this time whole holding the jo in place, drop your hips down a foot or so (keep your hands on the jo and at the same level they were before dropping your hips) and kind of get under the jo. Now keep the distance between your hand and hips consistent and just stand up. While you will probably still have tension in your shoulders/chest/etc to support the jo, you should see that it's much easier to lift the jo without introducing a whole lot more tension into your body.

In that video, that's what Horikawa is doing, but without physically moving his center to get under uke and without using the normal muscles one would use to do what he's doing. The rest of the demos on the vid are pretty much an extension of that, connecting to uke's center, getting under them and moving them where their balance isn't. That's also pretty much every aikido technique you'll see as done by o'sensei, regardless of era.

Last edited by chillzATL : 05-06-2011 at 10:59 AM.
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Old 05-08-2011, 05:36 AM   #148
ewolput
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Eddy Wolput wrote: View Post
Yamada's movie is in a dvd produced by Hal Sharp, judoka, and the main title of the DVD is Fukko Judo by Tadayuki Satoh.
TADAYUKI SATOU DEVELOPMENT CLINIC
Fukko (Renaissance) Judo USJA Sanction 11-021
Saturday, February 5, 2011 Pasadena Dojo, 595 Lincoln Ave, Pasadena 91103 9:00 AM -- 12:00 PM: (Body movement/ controls and throwing) 12:00 PM -- 1:00 PM: Lunch Break (lunch provided)
1:00 PM -- 4:00 PM: (Throwing, submissions and self defense applications) $35.00, (DVD $25.00) Please make checks payable to Hal Sharp for clinic fee and for DVD donation
Registration: At event.
Eligibility:
All judokas who are current members of USJF, USJA or USJI and associated Aikido/Jujitsu organizations with insurance.
Clinician: Tadayuki Satou, 7th Dan (Aikido), 6th Dan (Judo) Professor (Shihan) Waseda University, Tokyo, Japan
At the end of WWII Kenji Tomiki, a professor of Calligraphy, Judo and Aikido, was imprisoned by the Soviet Army for three years because he was branded an intellectual. While in his cell he devised a method of Aikido for Judoka. The product of this effort was the Tomiki Akido System, Kodokan Modern Self Defense (Goshin Jutsu) and Police Self Defense (Taiho Jutsu). Satou was a disciple of Tomiki and later developed a series of techniques directly related to Judo which he called Fukko Judo. In 2010 I videoed this amazing system in Tokyo, which we now share with you. These will improve your techniques including throwing, submission holds and self defense applications.
Available at the clinic is a rare video showing Fukko Judo (2010 clinic) and 1955-56 demonstration of Tomiki Aikido System, Taiho Jutsu and Goshin Jutsu. (Donation $25.00)
Hal Sharp, 8th Dan References: Fukko Judo, http://judoforum.com/index.php?/topi...judo-kito-ryu/ Tomiki, http://www.tomiki.org/tomikiaikido.html
For information contact: Ryan Fukuhara 310.251.6162 / af906@lafn.org
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Old 11-16-2015, 11:49 PM   #149
Sojourner
Location: Adelaide
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Eddy Wolput wrote: View Post
Yamada's movie is in a dvd produced by Hal Sharp, judoka, and the main title of the DVD is Fukko Judo by Tadayuki Satoh. Someone gaave me the DVD, I don't know where to buy.

In Tomiki Aikido, the old Ueshiba teachings are kept alive in what is called Koryu no kata, which is basically old prewar teachings from Ueshiba.
Also Iwama style has some original teachings.
In Minoru Mochizuki Yoseikan aikido you can find original prewar teachning........

Maybe others can add more
The Koryu no kata does seem quite interesting and worth some further investivation, my understanding was that the Yoshinkan style of Gozo Shioda was regarded to be prewar style Aikido also?
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