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Old 05-05-2011, 08:56 AM   #101
hughrbeyer
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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You suggest to take the sword and start practising with it. I will discuss this with my iai and jo teacher. It seems there are people on this forum who don't know each other very well and by not knowing the backround of the person making a "strange" remark.
Um, are you saying my comment about suburi strikes you as strange? Why? O-Sensei said: "When you have no sword, move as if you had a sword." How can I do that if I don't know how I'm supposed to move with a sword? Anyway, let's take this digression off to the other thread.

Quote:
Larry: As with anything to do with "IP" if you are not aware of how your mind affects subtle aspects of your body's alignment, muscular organization etc. you can do the movements for a lifetime and not get anything out of it but a good sweat and some exercise... One simple example of this is the second movement in the Shodokan "warm ups", just after jumping to get the blood going. The hand/arm positions shown are a very basic example of aiki age and aiki sage, but if one is not aware of what mental imagery, skeletal alignments, breathing and internal tensions that should be associated with the movement, they simply shake their arms up and down and then squat.
This is interesting and I'd love to hear more about it, but you do realize that this is exactly the criticism that is being leveled against traditional aikido training, don't you? The external forms are taught but not the understanding of internals that gives the external form life, and because they're internal it's very hard to figure them out on one's own. So we all end up practicing pretty movements that don't mean anything. We have to bring an understanding of these aspects of "mind" back into our training explicitly if we want to elevate aikido as an art.

I'm interested that Tomiki considered the IP stuff "tricks". What's a trick and what's core to aikido? Good technique? Joint locks? Using movement to lead uke off balance? IP? Aikido brings all those together into a unified whole, which is part of what makes it such a fascinating art. I have to say tho, so far as I'm concerned, it's the internal connection (which IP enables) that matters. Without that, the rest is just sound and fury.

Quote:
Philip: before the thread degenerates any further into Tony vs. the world, I'd just like to make acomment about the original topic.
Actually, the "Tony vs. the world" thread is here. Please make a note of it.
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Old 05-05-2011, 10:20 AM   #102
Chris Li
 
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post

This underground IP/Aiki movement is not going to change anything.
It's hardly underground - it's just not available everywhere...yet.

There are plenty of videos of folks with good skills on Youtube, do we really need more? What people need is to get their hands on someone who can push them in the right direction. Then they have to put in the work.

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-05-2011, 10:22 AM   #103
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Thank you, Larry! And, sorry, I probably should have phrased the question so it related more to the point of the thread. I do think it is interesting to consider the Tomiki method as a way to frame the criticism though.
Thank you again, Larry.
Take care,
Matt
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Old 05-05-2011, 10:56 AM   #104
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
It's hardly underground - it's just not available everywhere...yet.
If is not widely available is underground, and I don't believe this IP/Aiki is going to be common in this century, much less in the next decades.

It will be a "for a few chosen only" thing like it ever has been.

Quote:
There are plenty of videos of folks with good skills on Youtube, do we really need more?
Define good skills.

Links to some of said clips would be useful to see if your good skills definition matches mine, because we could be considering good skills different things.
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Old 05-05-2011, 10:56 AM   #105
phitruong
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
I Do Ryoku (movement power) and Datsu Ryoku (soft arm power).

LC
Larry, is that a typo? wouldn't that be "I Do Ryoku", "U Do Ryoku", "We Do Ryoku"? hey, i feel a rap song coming.

*sorry, couldn't help meself. i will now perform yonkyo on myself to atone..... oowww oh god! that hurt! bastard put on the yonkyo too hard!*

please resume the scheduled entertainment!
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Old 05-05-2011, 11:23 AM   #106
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
It will be a "for a few chosen only" thing like it ever has been.
The only reason this may be the case is because people simply won't put in the time needed to get anywhere with it. It will not be because the information isn't out there and freely available to anyone who wants to seek it out.
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Old 05-05-2011, 11:54 AM   #107
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Jason,

People all around the world is putting time, money, effort, sweat, pain and mat hours in things like BJJ, Judo, Boxing, MMA..., systems that have been demonstrating they work if you put the required work (and they require a lot of work). People is not lazy, people is tired of giving and not receiving, people is tired of being fooled.

You have to regain the confidence of people because, due the lies of the past generation, today's serious seekers of budo don't trust you anymore.

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 05-05-2011 at 12:00 PM. Reason: adding second paragraph.
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Old 05-05-2011, 11:57 AM   #108
Chris Li
 
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
If is not widely available is underground, and I don't believe this IP/Aiki is going to be common in this century, much less in the next decades.

It will be a "for a few chosen only" thing like it ever has been.
Just because it isn't available where you are doesn't mean that it's underground.There are plenty of public workshops and study groups working on this stuff.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Define good skills.

Links to some of said clips would be useful to see if your good skills definition matches mine, because we could be considering good skills different things.
Kodo Horikawa's on Youtube, so is Seigo Okamoto, Ark, and even...Ueshiba. Take your pick .

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-05-2011, 12:05 PM   #109
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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John Burn wrote: View Post
Tony, yet again, no offense to your Aikido, but why don't you actually put a video of yourself online showing us your version of IP? Because in that promo video of you, well, sorry but there was nothing even remotely showing IP in anyway. Aikido yes, but no IP. Don't take this as a negative comment.

Most of these guys are involved with private discussions and lots of people on Aikiweb also get involved with those private discussions - many of the guys (and girls) on here have posted videos, they're just hidden in plain sight Erm, well more like hidden with a password.
According to you John no, IP? but then I would expect that, when are we going to see one of you?....... I would love to see your IP, you know us sailor's......

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 05-05-2011 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 05-05-2011, 12:24 PM   #110
hughrbeyer
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Y'know, I think we have to be more specific about what we mean by IP. Aikido is an internal art--all aikido is internal to some degree. I've never met the aikido dojo where they don't talk about ki, connection, and taking balance.

So I think the interesting questions are: What are you trying to achieve with internal power? What concepts and language do you have to talk about it? How detailed is that language? How specific can you be about using internal power to deal with specific martial situations, not just the attack but what happens after the attack? How does your understanding of internal power integrate with external movement?
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Old 05-05-2011, 12:27 PM   #111
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Just because it isn't available where you are doesn't mean that it's underground.There are plenty of public workshops and study groups working on this stuff.
Chris, I'm not talking of being available here. I'm talking of being available where you are. How many aikido dojo are operating in USA?, and in Japan?, and in France? How many of them offer IP/Aiki training ater all those years of talking.

Imagine for a moment I move to a big city (LA, NYC, Paris, Tokyo) wiht lots of fine and famous Aikido dojo. What is really available regarding IP/Aiki?

Quote:
Kodo Horikawa's on Youtube, so is Seigo Okamoto, Ark, and even...Ueshiba. Take your pick .
Demos, demos and more demos. Except for some rare clips of Ushiro sensei, nothing that can make an skeptic pack and move.
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Old 05-05-2011, 12:49 PM   #112
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
According to you John no, IP? but then I would expect that, when are we going to see one of you?....... I would love to see your IP, you know us sailor's......
Wasn't just according to me Tony, not by a long way. There is a least one video floating around of me, you just need to look.

Most of the guys who know their stuff (not me) can look at a video and know who's faking it or who hasn't got it. If you've felt it, or had even a little exposure there are things you can describe and see even in a video and no-one seems to be seeing it in your one.

On a level of 1 to 10, I wouldn't even get a 1 yet, but you know, I have gotten off my backside and met some of these people and I am actively involved in working with the people in my club on this stuff, we're working on it together - who've you met who has the goods? Who can vouch for you in IP and not in ecky thump terms? You might be handy to have around in a fight, I get that, I have no problem with that side of your aikido.

Last edited by john.burn : 05-05-2011 at 12:50 PM. Reason: added something!

Best Regards,
John

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Old 05-05-2011, 12:56 PM   #113
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Tony, don't take the ecky thump thing as too offensive Just realised is an ancient and traditional martial art originating from Lancashire up North.

Best Regards,
John

www.chishindojo.co.uk
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Old 05-05-2011, 01:27 PM   #114
chillzATL
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Jason,

People all around the world is putting time, money, effort, sweat, pain and mat hours in things like BJJ, Judo, Boxing, MMA..., systems that have been demonstrating they work if you put the required work (and they require a lot of work). People is not lazy, people is tired of giving and not receiving, people is tired of being fooled.

You have to regain the confidence of people because, due the lies of the past generation, today's serious seekers of budo don't trust you anymore.
The difference is that in all of those instances you have a more immediate ROI vs. internal training. If you roll for a week straight with someone who is good, you should be demonstrably better at the end of that week. Internal training requires a reconditioning and retraining of the body that is tiring, both mentally and physically and to be perfectly honest, BORING at the onset. That's a hard thing for a lot of people to do, especially when even after that initial hump, it's still not something that you can really "use" in the same sense as you could other more direct training. It's just the initial hump that you need to get over in order to really be able to feel what you're doing, what your uke/partner is doing and work toward building the connections and such that are needed to eventually get to normal application and it doesn't get any easier.

To address the other aspects of your post. I do NOT do this stuff because I feel there is anything ineffective or wrong with my aikido or the aikido as taught by our small organization. I have been in fights with my aikido and successfully used it to defend myself. Not matches or sport, but fights where I knew there were no rules to protect me so I damned well better protect myself. I am not alone in that within our organization either. I don't say that to portray myself as some sort of badass. I know good and well there are untold numbers of people who could kick my ass, but the notion that all aikido is weak and "doesn't work" and that everyone who practices it is being sold some snake oil is and always will be laughable to me. Good technical aikido, hard training and honest training (if you don't move, you WILL get hit) can still provide you with a good and effective set of self defense tools. I know this is not the reality of most aikido, but I knew that twenty years ago too. I was here back in 2000 saying many of the same things Tony says today, albeit (hopefully) without the insulting tone. Had I continued to hang around here I would have very likely been one of the people calling Mike and Dan idiots as I relayed the above story. Fortunately for me I was not, but when I returned and started reading their posts, I wanted too, but the curious nature of age is that it changes us. So rather than do that I continued to read and I found myself getting more and more interested. I eventually found some local people who were working on this stuff and actually had some demonstrable skill. I went in as a skeptic, but with an open mind. We still come from a ki society background and I honestly believed that I did "relaxed" pretty darned well. I was wrong and I immediately knew that what they were doing was very different, in body, than what I had done and I wanted it. Not because I felt that what I was doing was weak, but because I honestly felt that it was the path to something "more" than what I was doing. As I've developed what tiny skill I have I find so many connections to the things Ueshiba used to say that were written off as "spritual gibberish" and I love that. I find it fascinating that the human body can do some of this stuff. I can hardly do anything these days without mentally taking stock of what's happening within my body and then making adjustments to try and get some measure of IP training out of it or see if using my body that way, the correct way, yields a different result.

Anyway, I got off on a ramble there, but the point is that I made myself one of the "chosen few" and anyone who is interested can do the same with just a little effort. People who are unhappy with their aikido, feel cheated by it or whatever and are waiting to have something proven to them before making efforts to fix it, probably don't have the mindset to do it in the first place. They could have done plenty to fix their aikido before Mike and Dan showed up and they didn't, so their disappointment and trust issues are largely their own.
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Old 05-05-2011, 01:40 PM   #115
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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John Burn wrote: View Post
Tony, don't take the ecky thump thing as too offensive Just realised is an ancient and traditional martial art originating from Lancashire up North.
I do the 'ampshire 'og version.....

And good for you, that you got off your "ass".....
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Old 05-05-2011, 01:48 PM   #116
Chris Li
 
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Chris, I'm not talking of being available here. I'm talking of being available where you are. How many aikido dojo are operating in USA?, and in Japan?, and in France? How many of them offer IP/Aiki training ater all those years of talking.

Imagine for a moment I move to a big city (LA, NYC, Paris, Tokyo) wiht lots of fine and famous Aikido dojo. What is really available regarding IP/Aiki?
Dan Harden and Mike Sigman are both in the US. Ark has visited the US. Both of them and Ark have been to Europe.

For example, in Honolulu, which is a smallish city, Dan Harden has been here a number of times and will be back in July. Mike Sigman will be here in July, Sam Chin will be here in September.

Excuses are vanishing...

There are no Shodokan (Tomiki) dojo in Honolulu, does that mean that it is an "underground" art?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Demos, demos and more demos. Except for some rare clips of Ushiro sensei, nothing that can make an skeptic pack and move.
Plenty there if you know what you're looking at. Not much, maybe, if you don't. That's one reason why the videos that everyone demands are of such little use. Get yourself somewhere that you can get your hands on one of those guys.

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-05-2011, 01:51 PM   #117
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
The difference is that in all of those instances you have a more immediate ROI vs. internal training. If you roll for a week straight with someone who is good, you should be demonstrably better at the end of that week. Internal training requires a reconditioning and retraining of the body that is tiring, both mentally and physically and to be perfectly honest, BORING at the onset. That's a hard thing for a lot of people to do, especially when even after that initial hump, it's still not something that you can really "use" in the same sense as you could other more direct training. It's just the initial hump that you need to get over in order to really be able to feel what you're doing, what your uke/partner is doing and work toward building the connections and such that are needed to eventually get to normal application and it doesn't get any easier.

To address the other aspects of your post. I do NOT do this stuff because I feel there is anything ineffective or wrong with my aikido or the aikido as taught by our small organization. I have been in fights with my aikido and successfully used it to defend myself. Not matches or sport, but fights where I knew there were no rules to protect me so I damned well better protect myself. I am not alone in that within our organization either. I don't say that to portray myself as some sort of badass. I know good and well there are untold numbers of people who could kick my ass, but the notion that all aikido is weak and "doesn't work" and that everyone who practices it is being sold some snake oil is and always will be laughable to me. Good technical aikido, hard training and honest training (if you don't move, you WILL get hit) can still provide you with a good and effective set of self defense tools. I know this is not the reality of most aikido, but I knew that twenty years ago too. I was here back in 2000 saying many of the same things Tony says today, albeit (hopefully) without the insulting tone. Had I continued to hang around here I would have very likely been one of the people calling Mike and Dan idiots as I relayed the above story. Fortunately for me I was not, but when I returned and started reading their posts, I wanted too, but the curious nature of age is that it changes us. So rather than do that I continued to read and I found myself getting more and more interested. I eventually found some local people who were working on this stuff and actually had some demonstrable skill. I went in as a skeptic, but with an open mind. We still come from a ki society background and I honestly believed that I did "relaxed" pretty darned well. I was wrong and I immediately knew that what they were doing was very different, in body, than what I had done and I wanted it. Not because I felt that what I was doing was weak, but because I honestly felt that it was the path to something "more" than what I was doing. As I've developed what tiny skill I have I find so many connections to the things Ueshiba used to say that were written off as "spritual gibberish" and I love that. I find it fascinating that the human body can do some of this stuff. I can hardly do anything these days without mentally taking stock of what's happening within my body and then making adjustments to try and get some measure of IP training out of it or see if using my body that way, the correct way, yields a different result.

Anyway, I got off on a ramble there, but the point is that I made myself one of the "chosen few" and anyone who is interested can do the same with just a little effort. People who are unhappy with their aikido, feel cheated by it or whatever and are waiting to have something proven to them before making efforts to fix it, probably don't have the mindset to do it in the first place. They could have done plenty to fix their aikido before Mike and Dan showed up and they didn't, so their disappointment and trust issues are largely their own.
There is a slight difference from insulting to pee taking, if anyone felt "insulted" I suggest you get a reality check, go and work as a doorman or cabbie or anyone who has had to deal with the public in general perse..... better still become a serviceman in your particular country, you will develop a much thicker skin, almost rhino like in your attitude and you will smile and generally amuse yourself that you are being so kind to them........
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Old 05-05-2011, 02:00 PM   #118
chillzATL
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
There is a slight difference from insulting to pee taking, if anyone felt "insulted" I suggest you get a reality check, go and work as a doorman or cabbie or anyone who has had to deal with the public in general perse..... better still become a serviceman in your particular country, you will develop a much thicker skin, almost rhino like in your attitude and you will smile and generally amuse yourself that you are being so kind to them........
Tony,

If you were to walk into a room full of people whom you do not know and you start busting their balls and as a result, they didn't like you, would you honestly try to say that the problem is that they don't have a thick enough skin and that's why they don't get you? Are you kidding me? YOu seriously wouldn't for one second think that maybe, MAYBE, it's just that you're going a little to far before these people know you and maybe, just maybe you should take it back a notch so that they can get to know you a little so that through that relationship they cna better take your ball busting? It is you sir, who needs the reality check.
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Old 05-05-2011, 05:17 PM   #119
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
This is interesting and I'd love to hear more about it, but you do realize that this is exactly the criticism that is being leveled against traditional aikido training, don't you? The external forms are taught but not the understanding of internals that gives the external form life, and because they're internal it's very hard to figure them out on one's own. So we all end up practicing pretty movements that don't mean anything. We have to bring an understanding of these aspects of "mind" back into our training explicitly if we want to elevate aikido as an art.
Hi Hugh,
I totally agree. I for one have never leveraged any criticism against "traditional" training. I have trained in almost every major Aikido method to get an idea of what may not be taught from my paradigm and I have learned much from those in "traditional" aikido as well as Yoshinkan and even Ki no Kenkyukai. Not all about "IP" but important things nevertheless.

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
I'm interested that Tomiki considered the IP stuff "tricks". What's a trick and what's core to aikido? Good technique? Joint locks? Using movement to lead uke off balance? IP? Aikido brings all those together into a unified whole, which is part of what makes it such a fascinating art. I have to say tho, so far as I'm concerned, it's the internal connection (which IP enables) that matters. Without that, the rest is just sound and fury.
To clarify, Tomiki did not consider IP stuff "tricks" he considered it "showing off" apparently. I guess he saw Aiki as a critical element embodied in everything one does in Aikijujutsu. It is a core technical concept that influences and controls everything from how one stands, moves, thinks, applies throws, locks etc. As a result (and maybe due to Judo's influence) he was more akin to teach the elements of Aiki as part of other technical concepts such as kuzushi and tai sabaki instead of using raw examples such as a "push test" for example. Like I said before, it would appear in his technique but he would not strip the "aiki" out and show it in an isolated manner per se. Was this a good idea, I don't know. However there are reports where he did things commonly associated with IP or aiki knowledge. One occurence was referenced by Nariyama Shihan of the Shodokan. It is somewhere on Aikiweb and also on the Shodokan website.

I'm giving my own views here of course as I am not an expert in this area.

Regards

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 05-05-2011, 05:39 PM   #120
oisin bourke
 
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post

Plenty there if you know what you're looking at. Not much, maybe, if you don't. That's one reason why the videos that everyone demands are of such little use. Get yourself somewhere that you can get your hands on one of those guys.

Best,

Chris
Chris, what is there that you see in the videos of Horikawa and Okamoto? How are they similar/ different? What should one be looking at?
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Old 05-05-2011, 05:57 PM   #121
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
Anyway, I got off on a ramble there, but the point is that I made myself one of the "chosen few" and anyone who is interested can do the same with just a little effort. People who are unhappy with their aikido, feel cheated by it or whatever and are waiting to have something proven to them before making efforts to fix it, probably don't have the mindset to do it in the first place. They could have done plenty to fix their aikido before Mike and Dan showed up and they didn't, so their disappointment and trust issues are largely their own.
Hi Jason,

I think I understad what you mean and I've also looking to fix my issues with aikido (going outside aikido, of course, I'm a lost cause for aikido) and helping others to find quality IP/Aiki instruction also outside of aikido because, the people who is teaching it, people like Dan, Mike, Ark, Howard, Ushiro, etc., are not aikido instructors.

Quote:
Chris Li wrote:
Dan Harden and Mike Sigman are both in the US. Ark has visited the US. Both of them and Ark have been to Europe.

For example, in Honolulu, which is a smallish city, Dan Harden has been here a number of times and will be back in July. Mike Sigman will be here in July, Sam Chin will be here in September.

Excuses are vanishing...
Hi Chris,

Which one of them is an aikido shihan from a recognized aikido org?

Quote:
There are no Shodokan (Tomiki) dojo in Honolulu, does that mean that it is an "underground" art?
It could be argued Shodokan is not aikido in a strict sense as it's ouside of the aikido iemoto system and their teaching methods are in contradiction with founder's and his heirs ideals about what aikido is.

In any case, I would't say Shodokan is mainstream aikido.

Quote:
Plenty there if you know what you're looking at. Not much, maybe, if you don't. That's one reason why the videos that everyone demands are of such little use.
What if the little use ot these clips is because they don't show clearly the effects of IP/Aiki in resisting, uncooperative and trained opponents? Why there are no videos of IP/Aiki with "aliveness"?

Anyway, may be I'm wrong in my predictions about IP/Aiki being taught in the majority of aikido dojo in the next 20 or 30 years. Time will tell but I don't see it happening.

Cheers.

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 05-05-2011 at 06:07 PM. Reason: clarification
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Old 05-05-2011, 06:11 PM   #122
Chris Li
 
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
Chris, what is there that you see in the videos of Horikawa and Okamoto? How are they similar/ different? What should one be looking at?
Well, If I talk about it with my guys then we all know what we're talking about, because we feel each other all the time, but it's hard to talk about it without a common vocabulary - that's why I said that videos are of limited use.

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-05-2011, 06:29 PM   #123
Chris Li
 
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Hi Jason,

I think I understad what you mean and I've also looking to fix my issues with aikido (going outside aikido, of course, I'm a lost cause for aikido) and helping others to find quality IP/Aiki instruction also outside of aikido because, the people who is teaching it, people like Dan, Mike, Ark, Howard, Ushiro, etc., are not aikido instructors.

Hi Chris,

Which one of them is an aikido shihan from a recognized aikido org?
Why does that matter?

If that kind of thing matters, there are a number of "recognized aikido shihan from recognized aikido organizations" working with this stuff.

But it really shouldn't make a difference as to whether you yourself are working on it or not.

In any case, as far as I'm concerned, "Aikido" is whatever Ueshiba was doing, and everything that I've seen Dan do fits in just fine.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
It could be argued Shodokan is not aikido in a strict sense as it's ouside of the aikido iemoto system and their teaching methods are in contradiction with founder's and his heirs ideals about what aikido is.

In any case, I would't say Shodokan is mainstream aikido.
But it's not an "underground art", which was my point. There are no Nishio style dojo in Honolulu either, but that doesn't mean that Nishio style (which is Aikikai) is an "underground art" either.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
What if the little use ot these clips is because they don't show clearly the effects of IP/Aiki in resisting, uncooperative and trained opponents? Why there are no videos of IP/Aiki with "aliveness"?
Like I said, better to get yourself where you can get your hands on someone than waiting around for someone to put it on TV.

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-05-2011, 06:54 PM   #124
oisin bourke
 
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Well, If I talk about it with my guys then we all know what we're talking about, because we feel each other all the time, but it's hard to talk about it without a common vocabulary - that's why I said that videos are of limited use.

Best,

Chris
Well, what vocabulary do you use?
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Old 05-05-2011, 06:57 PM   #125
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Why does that matter?
It matters because the people who is teaching it are not aikido instructors.

Quote:
If that kind of thing matters, there are a number of "recognized aikido shihan from recognized aikido organizations" working with this stuff.
A handful of them, on their own, in a world with thousands of aikido dojo.

Quote:
But it really shouldn't make a difference as to whether you yourself are working on it or not.
But it makes a difference. IP/Aiki has to be obtained outside of aikido. For an art which claims to be the path of Aiki having to go outside for it is sad, and it's sadder that this fact is not going to change.

Quote:
In any case, as far as I'm concerned, "Aikido" is whatever Ueshiba was doing, and everything that I've seen Dan do fits in just fine.
Did you train with founder? Sorry, I was not aware of that.

Quote:
But it's not an "underground art", which was my point. There are no Nishio style dojo in Honolulu either, but that doesn't mean that Nishio style (which is Aikikai) is an "underground art" either.
Semantics.

Quote:
Like I said, better to get yourself where you can get your hands on someone than waiting around for someone to put it on TV.
I'm not waiting anymore Chris, I went back to "sports" time ago. No more leaps of faith for me.
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