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Old 05-04-2011, 04:40 PM   #76
DH
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I'm not holding my breath waiting for that.
Really, I don't think the aikido community at large, from the file and rank to shihan level, is interested about IP/Aiki spreading.
Well I think it is obvious that the rank and file are completely oblivious as to what IP/aiki is and what they are missing that is the foundation of everything they have been trying to do. I also agree that they don't care at all.
Why am I so sure it will change?
Because everyone who encounters IP/aiki and learns to use it...wants it. The numbers will only continue to grow as it is occuring year by year, and now teacher by teacher. Soon it will be exponantial in one form or another.
Not that it matters, but I would add that Japanese shihan...and Doshu (including a shihan who is a long time friend of his who is training this and has talked with him about it) are not as "out of the loop" as you may think. They already know of the buzz and the players, and what is being said and done. Again, though I don't think the Japanese are going to be the ones to fix it anyway. They don't really have what it takes to teach it well, With them it will be as it always was, catch as catch can.
Dan
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Old 05-04-2011, 04:45 PM   #77
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

One of the things I find so interesting is that by all accounts I've seen, Tomiki was very specific in how to practice. It's one of the things I really enjoyed about my very short stint at the Himeji Shodokan club. Given this and the fact that he is held so highly as an example of internal strength, where do we suppose the disconnect (assuming one exists, of course; I'm in no position to know one way or the other) took place? I hear a lot of how Ueshiba may have changed his teaching, but I would think Tomiki would have been very up front with what to do, and representative to a large degree in how Ueshiba taught prewar.
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Old 05-04-2011, 05:04 PM   #78
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Why am I so sure it will change?
Because everyone who encounters IP/aiki and learns to use it...wants it. The numbers will only continue to grow as it is occuring year by year, and now teacher by teacher. Soon it will be exponantial in one form or another.
Time will tell, but I don't think the change is coming soon and much less exponentially.

Quote:
Not that it matters, but I would add that Japanese shihan...and Doshu (including a shihan who is a long time friend of his who is training this and has talked with him about it) are not as "out of the loop" as you may think. They already know of the buzz and the players, and what is being said and done.
Sure they're not "out of the loop" but that doesn't make them interested in IP/aiki spreading. It would be recognizing that they have been selling an "aikido for dummies" as the real deal for the last 60 years.
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Old 05-04-2011, 05:31 PM   #79
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Time will tell, but I don't think the change is coming soon and much less exponentially.

Sure they're not "out of the loop" but that doesn't make them interested in IP/aiki spreading. It would be recognizing that they have been selling an "aikido for dummies" as the real deal for the last 60 years.
Isn't the change already begun? And if they don't embrace it wouldn't the supposed difference be that much more obvious?
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Old 05-04-2011, 05:43 PM   #80
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Isn't the change already begun?
It's still underground and will remain underground until accepted and promoted by the establishment.

Quote:
And if they don't embrace it wouldn't the supposed difference be that much more obvious?
They only have to say "this is not Aikido" and that's all. File and rank will follow.

The IP/Aiki proponents, if they are really interested in IP/Aiki spreading and becoming mainstream, should adopt a different marketing (for a lack of better word) strategy.
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Old 05-04-2011, 05:58 PM   #81
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
The IP/Aiki proponents, if they are really interested in IP/Aiki spreading and becoming mainstream, should adopt a different marketing (for a lack of better word) strategy.
What do you think would be a good approach?
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Old 05-04-2011, 06:53 PM   #82
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Tony:

Please cite your source as to where Dan claims that he has "IT" and nobody else does. If you cannot find that source, then kindly issue an apology for your "mistake." Dan has been open about acknowledging other people in the community that have some of "IT" as well (Dan never claimed to or currently claims to have all of "IT").

Using one of Dan's quotes "You don't know what you don't know." One of the people that Dan has mentioned (myself as well), Ushiro Sensei says something like "the biggest block to your learning is what you already think that you know."

You have been encouraged to experience at least one of those two people and you have alternated by being dismissive of what you might learn/experience or claim that you already have "IT."

Very senior martial artists train with both Dan and Ushiro Sensei. Maybe, just maybe they do so for very good reason. You would never know why until you experienced for yourself. Then again, you can continue to claim mutually incompatible reasons for not wanting to experience either of them..... Kind of fitting what the moniker is at the bottom of your posts. Maybe it is you who is afraid of the truth, because it might hurt you to realize how much you didn't learn after all.

Marc Abrams
So you are saying, like Dan, that none other than those you mention have not discovered it for themselves don't know? Well that is a contradiction in terms isn't it? There are many inflated grades that I'm aware of and have studied as many years if not more? Have they really wasted their time for all these years, or maybe that just haven't thought about it that much?
Me? I am just a lowly 4th dan who according to you and Dan knows nothing...... Grades to me really mean nothing, it's just a numbers game. Do you honestly think I care about what you are trying to preach to me? Am I worried and really concerned about it? If I was, I would be the first to apply for one of Dan's courses in "IP" much like yourself Marc, but then again maybe don't have "it" so maybe you have that need....? I'm quite happy with what I was given in the beginning and have worked on it. Tomiki Sensei gave us the "tools", it's up to everyone who studies his system to make the best of it and find out for themselves by trial and error... Not everybody is going to get "it"..... that's life.....
I didn't study under one teacher, but many, and I learned to get the best out of them. it's been a fairly long road , but self revelation comes at a price, I believe it's called hard work....... Some, it seems find difficult to do......
I'm sure Dan is quite competent, power to him, but don't you think that we all haven't discovered something for ourselves along the way?
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Old 05-04-2011, 07:17 PM   #83
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
It's still underground and will remain underground until accepted and promoted by the establishment.

They only have to say "this is not Aikido" and that's all. File and rank will follow.

The IP/Aiki proponents, if they are really interested in IP/Aiki spreading and becoming mainstream, should adopt a different marketing (for a lack of better word) strategy.
Demetrio:

My teacher, who was a direct student of O'Sensei talked about the "secret" study groups that people partook in then. That still happens today. The manner in which a Shihan might teach at the headquarters might be very, very different from how he teaches at his own dojo. The "establishment" might not overtly promote the "other stuff", but they certainly haven't squashed it either. I am not waiting for a straight answer from some authority, rather trying to become as good, or potentially better than my teacher. IP/Aiki skills is one pathway toward that goal. I know my teacher is supporting me to become the best that I possibly can be.

Hopefully we all are on that path to self-betterment.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
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Old 05-04-2011, 07:22 PM   #84
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

I may be wrong, and I apologize if I am, but I get the impression that Dan's message is that "IP" is so misunderstood that it's practically not there at all (by his and others' standards at least) in the rather large Aikido community. I haven't been following a lot of the IP conversations for a while, but I also haven't seen any names in Aikido as being described as having "any" of it. However, I do hear a lot about people from Aikido, high ranking ones even, who are learning it, which implies that some people somewhere have something.
So I think parts of the message (by him and others) might be taking center-stage in these conversations, eclipsing the whole.
I'm still curious about my question regarding Tomiki though. I would think he would be a person who would have been very clear about how he trained with Ueshiba, but I might also be inferring too much. I'm not even a "lowly" yondan. I'm a 5th kyu (of an independant dojo, not Shodokan) and a rather poor one at that.
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Old 05-04-2011, 07:25 PM   #85
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
So you are saying, like Dan, that none other than those you mention have not discovered it for themselves don't know? Well that is a contradiction in terms isn't it? There are many inflated grades that I'm aware of and have studied as many years if not more? Have they really wasted their time for all these years, or maybe that just haven't thought about it that much?
Me? I am just a lowly 4th dan who according to you and Dan knows nothing...... Grades to me really mean nothing, it's just a numbers game. Do you honestly think I care about what you are trying to preach to me? Am I worried and really concerned about it? If I was, I would be the first to apply for one of Dan's courses in "IP" much like yourself Marc, but then again maybe don't have "it" so maybe you have that need....? I'm quite happy with what I was given in the beginning and have worked on it. Tomiki Sensei gave us the "tools", it's up to everyone who studies his system to make the best of it and find out for themselves by trial and error... Not everybody is going to get "it"..... that's life.....
I didn't study under one teacher, but many, and I learned to get the best out of them. it's been a fairly long road , but self revelation comes at a price, I believe it's called hard work....... Some, it seems find difficult to do......
I'm sure Dan is quite competent, power to him, but don't you think that we all haven't discovered something for ourselves along the way?
Tony,

You should try and stop twisting words for a change so that you can justify your feeling belittled and attacked. Nowhere did I talk about just Dan and Ushiro Sensei as being the only two that have IT. Where exactly did I say that you know nothing? Once again, maybe an apology is in order for intentionally distorting what I said.

If you were not so worried about this topic, then you probably would not be posting so much about it.

This arena has nothing to do about what we have discovered for ourselves along the way and has everything to do with continuing to reach out and discover anew. O'Sensei certainly set a model for doing so. Once again, try taking your own moniker to heart and practice what you preach.

Marc Abrams

ps- If I was preaching to you, I would at least expect you to tithe!
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Old 05-04-2011, 07:37 PM   #86
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Me? I am just a lowly 4th dan who according to you and Dan knows nothing......
Hey Tony
Ya know, I never said that...and I truly...truly...do not feel that way. Please don't put words in my mouth...or thoughts in your head!! It prevents us from communicating, staight up..You alienate yourself from me, and not the other way round.
Quote:
but don't you think that we all haven't discovered something for ourselves along the way?
If you had discovered (your words) what I and others are talking about, you would recognize it and discuss it as a practical reality, and not be make fun of it as magic and stupiding.
Stop being defensive. It's all good. When are you willing to embace advice in a friendly, and non confrontational manner?
Have you even heard me tell you that on any other day I would be agreeing with you? How about responding to a full and friendly post instead of picking points to argue?
Cheers
Dan.

Last edited by DH : 05-04-2011 at 07:43 PM.
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Old 05-04-2011, 08:46 PM   #87
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Hey all. (And an online hi back to you, Dan!)

@Eddy, I want to be clear that I don't intend my remarks above to be a slam on the Tomiki system. My first real dojo and first real sensei were Tomiki, and I have a lot of fondness for the style. But people were talking about what Tomiki may have preserved from the Founder that the Aikikai didn't, and wondering if it included aiki and internal power (Gerardo).

When you talk of the Tandoku Undo exercises teaching good posture and balance and correct movement, I totally understand that. And if you want to argue that Tomiki kept more of the jujitsu movements than the Aikikai, I'd agree with that too. But neither tandoku undo nor the basic randori-no-kata train aiki/IP as Dan teaches it in any explicit way; I can't see how those movements train those IP principles in any implicit way; and I never heard any talk of how those principles underlie the movements. (We were taught Tohei's four principles, by contrast.)

This isn't good or bad, it just suggests that whatever the reason Tomiki split from Hombu, and whatever he took with him to emphasize in his style, this wasn't it.

Contrast that with baguazhang, where my experience is measured in hours. Dan has a language and explicit visualizations to work on what he's doing, and I haven't encountered any of that in bagua yet. But from the first warm-up exercise we did (literally), we were clearly practicing some of the same basics. Especially interesting in light of the speculation in Hidden in Plain Sight about possible Chinese roots of Daito-Ryu.

Whether Tandoku Undo teaches good use of the handblade, well... if you're gonna teach sword movements, get a sword. I think you'd do better to spend the time on kesagiri suburi practice. You'd learn more about moving from center, and moving the center, and moving, and proper hanmi, and extension, and ki extension, and keeping the shoulders loose, and not muscling the movement, and not allowing the movement to take you off center, and a bunch of other stuff, than all the tandoku undo in the world.

I'm also unimpressed by shiai as a way of keeping martial effectiveness in the art. If you're not doing full contact, it's a game. It may teach lots of good awareness, but it's not going to guarantee martial effectiveness. I never knew how many ways I could be open until I joined my current dojo.

As for Dan's Aiki/IP... One of the charming things about Dan is that "Dan Harden" and "marketing strategy" don't really fit in the same sentence. He does what he does, take it or leave it. But my attitude is, once I've seen it, why the hell would I not take it? I'm shown a way to increase the effectiveness of my aikido by an order of magnitude and I'm going to, what, just walk away? Might as well take up tiddlywinks, at that point.

I think a lot of the angst here comes from a perception that what Dan does is an alternative to aikido. Certainly when we started experiencing with it in my dojo I worried about where it would all lead... I first fell in love with aikido, after all. If I wanted to do Daito-Ryu, I'd be doing Daito-Ryu. But over the last year it's become very clear that what you get when you apply the aiki/IP stuff to aikido is--aikido. And a very nice aikido too, IMHO.

As an aside, why would I want my spirit to "fit in" with the guy who's attacking me? My spirit is my own.

Gassho, all.
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Old 05-04-2011, 09:03 PM   #88
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
I think you'd do better to spend the time on kesagiri suburi practice. You'd learn more about moving from center, and moving the center, and moving, and proper hanmi, and extension, and ki extension, and keeping the shoulders loose, and not muscling the movement, and not allowing the movement to take you off center, and a bunch of other stuff...
...
As an aside, why would I want my spirit to "fit in" with the guy who's attacking me? My spirit is my own.

Gassho, all.
That's very interesting! I'm not saying my experience is the same, but this fits with my meager understanding of Aikido (I can't compare well with tandoku undo though). My experiences with kesa cutting practices have always felt very useful in the ways you described, and my understanding of the "harmony" in Aikido is that it's based on harmonizing with Nature/natural principles and leaving it somewhat up to the other guy to adjust, much of the adjustment being based on the inherent strength of tori's connection with "Heaven and Earth."
Thank you!
Matt
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Old 05-05-2011, 01:25 AM   #89
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Smile Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post

Whether Tandoku Undo teaches good use of the handblade, well... if you're gonna teach sword movements, get a sword. I think you'd do better to spend the time on kesagiri suburi practice. You'd learn more about moving from center, and moving the center, and moving, and proper hanmi, and extension, and ki extension, and keeping the shoulders loose, and not muscling the movement, and not allowing the movement to take you off center, and a bunch of other stuff, than all the tandoku undo in the world.
You suggest to take the sword and start practising with it. I will discuss this with my iai and jo teacher.
It seems there are people on this forum who don't know each other very well and by not knowing the backround of the person making a "strange" remark.

Anyway the expression "internal power" is creating a very controversial debate. There are people who have it and there are people who don't have it, but it seems most of them don't have the "skill" to bring the message.
In Tomiki aikido, as a stated before, we don't use the expression "internal power", we use the term "skill" and "skillfull" to express the ability of someone.
The tandoku undo are exercises not only empty handed, but you also can use a weapon to create proper bodymovement which is the foundation to create "skill".
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Old 05-05-2011, 02:03 AM   #90
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I'm still curious about my question regarding Tomiki though. I would think he would be a person who would have been very clear about how he trained with Ueshiba, but I might also be inferring too much.
Hi Matthew,

From my talks with certain J.A.A. Shihan who are continually researching this subject, Tomiki was very clear on certain aspects of his training with Ueshiba M. The impression I got however was that he considered a lot of the "ki" tricks etc. that may be associated with knowledge of what the Chinese artists and some others refer to as "Internal Power" as showing off, so he rarely demonstrated these things in isolation but it was ever present in his waza. During my talks, I was also told about a particular closed door, 2-week long training session with Tomiki and Ueshiba M. alone, where critical aspects of Ueshiba's Aiki Jujutsu were revealed. How true these claims are I don't know, but later Tomiki went on to teach Ueshiba's Aiki Jujutsu at a military college in Manchuria.

Tomiki did however codify the training methodology within the Taiso and basic exercises done at the beginning of every Shodokan training session. This does not mean however that most Shodokan practitioners know why they do what they do. Most think its just a warm up. As with anything to do with "IP" if you are not aware of how your mind affects subtle aspects of your body's alignment, muscular organization etc. you can do the movements for a lifetime and not get anything out of it but a good sweat and some exercise.

One simple example of this is the second movement in the Shodokan "warm ups", just after jumping to get the blood going. The hand/arm positions shown are a very basic example of aiki age and aiki sage, but if one is not aware of what mental imagery, skeletal alignments, breathing and internal tensions that should be associated with the movement, they simply shake their arms up and down and then squat. Another easy example appears in Tegatana Dosa and another is found in Hiriki no Renshu. The discussion that my Yoshinkan friends and I have on the similarities of that last one usually lasts for hours.

To borrow from what Eddy said, Tomiki also blended the applied aspects of internal mind/body organization with his theories on kuzushi (this is found in the Koryu Dai Yon kata as Eddy mentions or the Nanahon no Kuzushi exercise). As a result, a lot of the "aiki" in our method is found within the timing and application of kuzushi. That is why we never talk specifically about "Internal Power" per se, but in the explanation of kuzushi you will hear a lot about To Itsu Ryoku (focus of power), I Do Ryoku (movement power) and Datsu Ryoku (soft arm power).

Sorry to add to the thread drift, I think this discussion has gone away from Eddy's original intent, but I thought this was worth mentioning.

Hope it helps.

Best regards

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
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Old 05-05-2011, 02:29 AM   #91
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hey Tony
Ya know, I never said that...and I truly...truly...do not feel that way. Please don't put words in my mouth...or thoughts in your head!! It prevents us from communicating, staight up..You alienate yourself from me, and not the other way round.

If you had discovered (your words) what I and others are talking about, you would recognize it and discuss it as a practical reality, and not be make fun of it as magic and stupiding.
Stop being defensive. It's all good. When are you willing to embace advice in a friendly, and non confrontational manner?
Have you even heard me tell you that on any other day I would be agreeing with you? How about responding to a full and friendly post instead of picking points to argue?
Cheers
Dan.
Dan funnily enough I do recognize it, what I don't like is the fact that you will not put up video as the others have done, such as Ushiro and Akuzawa, who I agree are doing something similar to some of the things I have discovered for myself.... You want to somehow keep it under wraps whereas these other guys are being completely open about it.
What is so special about yours that you can't put something up as a taster? I'm sure if there is some value in it I would see it for myself just as others would and we would all come along to your seminars Dan....
I like to see the "product" I might be purchasing before I make any commitment.....
Make something a little "mysterious" and the "must have it's" will come in their droves, a known sales ploy....
Like I said before Dan put something up for all of us to see and you might, just might get a better reaction......
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Old 05-05-2011, 02:37 AM   #92
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Tony,

You should try and stop twisting words for a change so that you can justify your feeling belittled and attacked. Nowhere did I talk about just Dan and Ushiro Sensei as being the only two that have IT. Where exactly did I say that you know nothing? Once again, maybe an apology is in order for intentionally distorting what I said.

If you were not so worried about this topic, then you probably would not be posting so much about it.

This arena has nothing to do about what we have discovered for ourselves along the way and has everything to do with continuing to reach out and discover anew. O'Sensei certainly set a model for doing so. Once again, try taking your own moniker to heart and practice what you preach.

Marc Abrams

ps- If I was preaching to you, I would at least expect you to tithe!
Marc I'm not twisting anything, you just assume I am..... I speak directly from the heart and I don't really care if it somehow affects your sensitivities. BTW liked yours and Georges photo, it suited you both.... I was going to send you a years supply of carrots just in case you ran out..... Good for night vision you know when most of the bunnies come out to play....
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Old 05-05-2011, 02:54 AM   #93
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Eddy Wolput wrote: View Post
You suggest to take the sword and start practising with it. I will discuss this with my iai and jo teacher.
It seems there are people on this forum who don't know each other very well and by not knowing the backround of the person making a "strange" remark.

Anyway the expression "internal power" is creating a very controversial debate. There are people who have it and there are people who don't have it, but it seems most of them don't have the "skill" to bring the message.
In Tomiki aikido, as a stated before, we don't use the expression "internal power", we use the term "skill" and "skillfull" to express the ability of someone.
The tandoku undo are exercises not only empty handed, but you also can use a weapon to create proper bodymovement which is the foundation to create "skill".
That is true Eddy, I use a heavy bokuto for tandoku undo, it gives it another dimension.....Also for unsoku.
I don't use it as just a warm up but as a study which many in T/S seem to neglect. It's no good repeating a couple of times, but many many times over until one is exhausted. Most find it boring and want to get straight onto doing "waza"
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Old 05-05-2011, 02:59 AM   #94
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
Hi Matthew,

From my talks with certain J.A.A. Shihan who are continually researching this subject, Tomiki was very clear on certain aspects of his training with Ueshiba M. The impression I got however was that he considered a lot of the "ki" tricks etc. that may be associated with knowledge of what the Chinese artists and some others refer to as "Internal Power" as showing off, so he rarely demonstrated these things in isolation but it was ever present in his waza. During my talks, I was also told about a particular closed door, 2-week long training session with Tomiki and Ueshiba M. alone, where critical aspects of Ueshiba's Aiki Jujutsu were revealed. How true these claims are I don't know, but later Tomiki went on to teach Ueshiba's Aiki Jujutsu at a military college in Manchuria.

Tomiki did however codify the training methodology within the Taiso and basic exercises done at the beginning of every Shodokan training session. This does not mean however that most Shodokan practitioners know why they do what they do. Most think its just a warm up. As with anything to do with "IP" if you are not aware of how your mind affects subtle aspects of your body's alignment, muscular organization etc. you can do the movements for a lifetime and not get anything out of it but a good sweat and some exercise.

One simple example of this is the second movement in the Shodokan "warm ups", just after jumping to get the blood going. The hand/arm positions shown are a very basic example of aiki age and aiki sage, but if one is not aware of what mental imagery, skeletal alignments, breathing and internal tensions that should be associated with the movement, they simply shake their arms up and down and then squat. Another easy example appears in Tegatana Dosa and another is found in Hiriki no Renshu. The discussion that my Yoshinkan friends and I have on the similarities of that last one usually lasts for hours.

To borrow from what Eddy said, Tomiki also blended the applied aspects of internal mind/body organization with his theories on kuzushi (this is found in the Koryu Dai Yon kata as Eddy mentions or the Nanahon no Kuzushi exercise). As a result, a lot of the "aiki" in our method is found within the timing and application of kuzushi. That is why we never talk specifically about "Internal Power" per se, but in the explanation of kuzushi you will hear a lot about To Itsu Ryoku (focus of power), I Do Ryoku (movement power) and Datsu Ryoku (soft arm power).

Sorry to add to the thread drift, I think this discussion has gone away from Eddy's original intent, but I thought this was worth mentioning.

Hope it helps.

Best regards

LC
It does Larry, well done.... bleak barance, bleak barance..... No bleak barance? Oh dear..... no throw......
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Old 05-05-2011, 03:20 AM   #95
philipsmith
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

before the thread degenerates any further into Tony vs. the world, I'd just like to make acomment about the original topic.

Both Abe and Tomiki Senseis had the right, as high-ranking instructors to appraise Aikido critically, but it doesn't necessarily follow they were right in that criticism.

Maybe this elusive internal power does exist (maybe it doesn't) but we all know that Aikido requires much serious personal study before it can be appreciated fully.

We all think we know what"Aikido" is and look at all other Aikido from that point of view and that has be true of both Tomiki and Abe senseis.

Just my take on the situation - feel free to ignore or not as you wish.
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Old 05-05-2011, 03:40 AM   #96
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Philip Smith wrote: View Post
before the thread degenerates any further into Tony vs. the world, I'd just like to make acomment about the original topic.

Both Abe and Tomiki Senseis had the right, as high-ranking instructors to appraise Aikido critically, but it doesn't necessarily follow they were right in that criticism.

Maybe this elusive internal power does exist (maybe it doesn't) but we all know that Aikido requires much serious personal study before it can be appreciated fully.

We all think we know what"Aikido" is and look at all other Aikido from that point of view and that has be true of both Tomiki and Abe senseis.

Just my take on the situation - feel free to ignore or not as you wish.
Ha ha!! No me versus peoples over sensitive sensitivities.....
With hand on hip and making that camp gesture....
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Old 05-05-2011, 04:43 AM   #97
ewolput
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

The story of Tadashi Abe is quite rude, the Tomiki interview is more polite. Both expressed their feelings about a trainingsystem which lacks a critiial element, according their belief how aikido has to be practised
Shiai and/or randori is only one element to test your skill and Tomiki and his followers think this is an objective way of evaluating the skill under a structured formt with rules to avoid injuries and also to evaluate people from the beginning of their training.
Tadashi Abe used problaly a different method. That is a question for those who knew him better.
At the end of the 19th century beginning 20th century, in Europe a certain Barton Wright created a system called Bartitsu, with element from jujutsu, boxing and stickfighting (western style). After WW2 this system was almost forgotten. But now there is some revival and people are trying to construct this old system again based on documents and experience of contemporary martial arts. I see the same evolution in aikido, people are trying to create a system of aikido which reflects the skill of the founder and his teachers. Luckily we have some old students of Ueshiba who had some knowledge and they transmitted this to their students what they understood from the teachings of their sensei.
It is very interesting to learn about the different methods of Ueshiba's students even if they lack some martial experience.
Explaining a method is not simple, the best way is to feel what is happening to have first hand experience. But sometimes it is difficult because not everybody has the facilities to visit a person who is skillfull. In Tomiki aikido we are using "kuzushi" a lot, but it seems there a lot of interpretations of it. The same for "aiki" and "internal power"
If there are critisism of training methods I will be very glad to know them and have some explanation about what is missing and maybe the cure of it.
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Old 05-05-2011, 05:07 AM   #98
john.burn
 
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Dan funnily enough I do recognize it, what I don't like is the fact that you will not put up video as the others have done, such as Ushiro and Akuzawa, who I agree are doing something similar to some of the things I have discovered for myself.... You want to somehow keep it under wraps whereas these other guys are being completely open about it...
...Like I said before Dan put something up for all of us to see and you might, just might get a better reaction......
Tony, yet again, no offense to your Aikido, but why don't you actually put a video of yourself online showing us your version of IP? Because in that promo video of you, well, sorry but there was nothing even remotely showing IP in anyway. Aikido yes, but no IP. Don't take this as a negative comment.

Most of these guys are involved with private discussions and lots of people on Aikiweb also get involved with those private discussions - many of the guys (and girls) on here have posted videos, they're just hidden in plain sight Erm, well more like hidden with a password.

Best Regards,
John

www.chishindojo.co.uk
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Old 05-05-2011, 07:08 AM   #99
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
What do you think would be a good approach?
They should contact Joinha.

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote:
My teacher, who was a direct student of O'Sensei talked about the "secret" study groups that people partook in then. That still happens today. The manner in which a Shihan might teach at the headquarters might be very, very different from how he teaches at his own dojo. The "establishment" might not overtly promote the "other stuff", but they certainly haven't squashed it either.
Marc, the "secret" study groups, the different teachings for "in house" students and the like is not working as a method to put back IP in Aikido. It only serves to make two kinds of aikido: one for the subjects/proletariat, lacking IP but good enough to keep things rolling, and other for the ruling class.

This "Aikido with IP only for the chosen ones" transmission model is cultish and is one of the things that, IMO, will cause the art extinction sooner than expected.

I remember Ledyard Sensei saying today's young people don't want to put the hard work. Goldsbury Sensei said something similar regarding Doshu concerns about the number of Aikido practitioneres decreasing in Japan. Today's people are putting the hard work in BJJ, MMA, Wrestling, Boxing and Kickboxing because, in these arts, what they offer matches with what you get if you put the work, the pain, the sweat and the hours.

Aikido is agonizing. The waza has become fake and empty, the spiritual principles have been substituted by new age zen lite for middle aged esalenish burgueoises.

This underground IP/Aiki movement is not going to change anything.

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 05-05-2011 at 07:23 AM. Reason: fixing quote
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Old 05-05-2011, 07:45 AM   #100
Marc Abrams
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
They should contact Joinha.

Marc, the "secret" study groups, the different teachings for "in house" students and the like is not working as a method to put back IP in Aikido. It only serves to make two kinds of aikido: one for the subjects/proletariat, lacking IP but good enough to keep things rolling, and other for the ruling class.

This "Aikido with IP only for the chosen ones" transmission model is cultish and is one of the things that, IMO, will cause the art extinction sooner than expected.

I remember Ledyard Sensei saying today's young people don't want to put the hard work. Goldsbury Sensei said something similar regarding Doshu concerns about the number of Aikido practitioneres decreasing in Japan. Today's people are putting the hard work in BJJ, MMA, Wrestling, Boxing and Kickboxing because, in these arts, what they offer matches with what you get if you put the work, the pain, the sweat and the hours.

Aikido is agonizing. The waza has become fake and empty, the spiritual principles have been substituted by new age zen lite for middle aged esalenish burgueoises.

This underground IP/Aiki movement is not going to change anything.
Demetrio:

I see this issue as having more to do with a genuine failure in teaching paradigms. The traditional, Asian paradigm was a small, family-style teaching methodology. Even in that paradigm, the "cap stone" of the system was typically only taught to the successor. The paradigm could never translate to a larger student base and people struggle with how to bridge gaps. The open secret about the private study groups was one way. The different teaching styles at private dojos was another way.

George is right in that people have a great deal of difficulty in training as hard as was common in the past. There are many different reasons for that to be the norm of today. Even so, many of us struggle with trying to find better teaching paradigms. One reason that I like training with Dan is that his teaching paradigms are very much in tune with a western-culture style of teaching & learning. No secrets, methodical, logical.... One of the reasons that I like training with Ushiro Sensei is that he is one of the very few who have a genuinely deep understanding of the depth of kata and it's potential to truly learn from this style of training. One of the reasons that I like training with Imaizumi Sensei is that there is no ego involved and we can continue to explore the depths of the "basics" so that we can develop an ever-expanding foundation.

I struggle to try and integrate from all sources for my own training and teacher. It is imperfect and I am always dissatisfied with where I am at and push myself to do better... much better. I owe this to my students.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
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