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Old 05-02-2011, 11:31 PM   #51
Gorgeous George
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Gerardo Torres wrote: View Post
Hello,

Can you please explain what are these "old Ueshiba teachings" that are present in these three styles (Iwama, Tomiki, Yoseikan) but not present (?) in other styles?
This is a good, interesting question, as I seem to recall somebody on here mentioning how Tomiki sensei conceived solo exercises (practicing the movement of the tegatana, I believe) while captive in Siberia, post-WWII, and how O'sensei was less than impressed when shown them...

And on the subject of Tadashi Abe: somebody related the story of how he once dismissed O'sensei's ability, saying to Mochizuki sensei I think, something like he was vulnerable...so Mochizuki told him to attack him however he liked (presumably because he regarded O'sensei as of superior ability, so if he couldn't beat him, he'd have no chance against O'sensei...); he did, Mochizuki countered with a kick, and Abe was defeated.
He then expressed astonishment, exclaiming 'There are no kicks in aikido!', to which Mochizuki replied that was a ridiculous view, as 'I have done aikido with artillery/munitions during the war...'.

I'm pretty sure it was those two men in the story; it was in a thread here not too long ago...
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Old 05-03-2011, 03:29 AM   #52
ewolput
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

When Tomiki was a war prisoner in Russia he developed "solo" exercises based on the use of "tegatana". But it is a mistake to say he deviced the solo exercises when he was a prisoner, because already in Manchuria when he was lecturing at the university during the war, he wrote a paper about a training system for aikijutsu.
We also have to understand that those solo exercises are only a part of a much broader system based on atemi waza and kansetsu waza from the aikijutsu Ueshiba taught him (and also Hideo Ohba his lifelong assistent). In the early fifties, Tomiki called this system Judo Taiso sometimes also Yawara Taiso. The purpose of this system was to introduce judo people of Waseda University to aikido.This Judo Taiso is basically Tandoku Undo (solo exercises) and Sotai Undo (paired exercises). He called it Judo Taiso because in his thinking Judo is not alone the throwing and hold down techniques. But Judo has to be a complete Budo which includes aikijutsu.
If you like to know more about his way of thinking please visit :
http://waseda-aikido.com/history-e/index.html
You also can consult "old and new" Tomiki Aikido books in Japanese and English on :
http://tomiki-aikido.wikispaces.com/home
There is a studygroup in Europe which is researching on these early post war teachings of Tomiki and its relationship with prewar teachings of Ueshiba.

Eddy
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Old 05-03-2011, 05:57 AM   #53
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
Tomiki sensei conceived solo exercises (practicing the movement of the tegatana, I believe) while captive in Siberia, post-WWII, and how O'sensei was less than impressed when shown them...
Tomiki's Judo Taisho:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPhG6XA2fL8

Quote:
And on the subject of Tadashi Abe: somebody related the story of how he once dismissed O'sensei's ability, saying to Mochizuki sensei I think, something like he was vulnerable...
Mochizuki and Abe:
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=369

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 05-03-2011 at 06:00 AM.
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Old 05-03-2011, 05:53 PM   #54
Gerardo Torres
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Eddy Wolput wrote: View Post
When Tomiki was a war prisoner in Russia he developed "solo" exercises based on the use of "tegatana". But it is a mistake to say he deviced the solo exercises when he was a prisoner, because already in Manchuria when he was lecturing at the university during the war, he wrote a paper about a training system for aikijutsu.
We also have to understand that those solo exercises are only a part of a much broader system based on atemi waza and kansetsu waza from the aikijutsu Ueshiba taught him (and also Hideo Ohba his lifelong assistent). In the early fifties, Tomiki called this system Judo Taiso sometimes also Yawara Taiso. The purpose of this system was to introduce judo people of Waseda University to aikido.This Judo Taiso is basically Tandoku Undo (solo exercises) and Sotai Undo (paired exercises). He called it Judo Taiso because in his thinking Judo is not alone the throwing and hold down techniques. But Judo has to be a complete Budo which includes aikijutsu.
If you like to know more about his way of thinking please visit :
http://waseda-aikido.com/history-e/index.html
You also can consult "old and new" Tomiki Aikido books in Japanese and English on :
http://tomiki-aikido.wikispaces.com/home
There is a studygroup in Europe which is researching on these early post war teachings of Tomiki and its relationship with prewar teachings of Ueshiba.

Eddy
So, do these exercises (based on "old Ueshiba teachings" as you say) help develop the type of aiki and internal power in Ueshiba's aikido? (I couldn't tell from the links and video)
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Old 05-03-2011, 05:56 PM   #55
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Gerardo Torres wrote: View Post
So, do these exercises (based on "old Ueshiba teachings" as you say) help develop the type of aiki and internal power in Ueshiba's aikido? (I couldn't tell from the links and video)
Only one way to find out........
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Old 05-03-2011, 06:09 PM   #56
Gerardo Torres
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Only one way to find out........
Actually, there's more than one way to find out. For example, the person who started this thread could explain right here how these "old Ueshiba teachings" present in some aikido styles (one of them his own I suppose) lead to Ueshiba's aiki and IP. It should be easy, don't you think?
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Old 05-03-2011, 08:09 PM   #57
hughrbeyer
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

I started out studying Tomiki Aikido, and we practiced the Tandoku Undo exercises as a regular thing. More recently I've been learning internal aiki techniques from people who are working with Dan Harden, primarily my own sensei (Bill Gleason). I hate making absolute statements--maybe my Tomiki dojo didn't get it, or maybe I didn't get it--but I see no similarity at all between the two. I see more parallels between DH's aiki principles and baguazhang than with Tomiki.
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Old 05-03-2011, 10:31 PM   #58
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
I hate making absolute statements--maybe my Tomiki dojo didn't get it, or maybe I didn't get it--but I see no similarity at all between the two. I see more parallels between DH's aiki principles and baguazhang than with Tomiki.
I'm not surprised A lot of people don't get these things unless they know what to look for within the most mundane looking practices and drills. There is a reason why the "warm ups", Taiso and basic exercises are done every class.

The thing is people focus a lot on what the exercises look like when it is really all about what is happening inside your body and your awareness of it. I won't be surprised if a lot of folks training in Tomiki Aikido have no idea what the Taiso and basics developed by Tomiki are really all about and what they are a template for. Most people focus on technique and sport, not the advanced mind/body connection stuff.

Just some thoughts.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 05-04-2011, 02:58 AM   #59
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
I'm not surprised A lot of people don't get these things unless they know what to look for within the most mundane looking practices and drills. There is a reason why the "warm ups", Taiso and basic exercises are done every class.

The thing is people focus a lot on what the exercises look like when it is really all about what is happening inside your body and your awareness of it. I won't be surprised if a lot of folks training in Tomiki Aikido have no idea what the Taiso and basics developed by Tomiki are really all about and what they are a template for. Most people focus on technique and sport, not the advanced mind/body connection stuff.

Just some thoughts.

LC
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Old 05-04-2011, 04:21 AM   #60
ewolput
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

In 1956 Kenji Tomiki explained the word Aikido :
"The old saying goes - it is in the spirit that carries the mind and controls the body- The people of ancient times believed that man's mind and body and consequently his strenght were under control of the spirit. Aiki means making your spirit "fit in" with your opponent's. In other words it means bringing your movements into accord with your opponent's. After all it means the same thing as the "principle of gentleness", for it is an explanation of the principle from within."

In 2005, Teruo Fujiwara wrote a paper about Judo Taiso (student of Kenji Tomiki in the fifties)
The Tandoku Undo are exercises to develop good posture and balance. The judo principle shizentai-no--ri is clearly expressed in these excercises. In these exercises the use of the handblade is a reflection of the many aiki-jutsu atemiwaza and kansetsuwaza. We cannot deny the influence of swordmanship in the use of the handblade (tegatana). The Sotai Undo are exercises which uses the kuzushi-no-ri principle of judo (breaking balance principle). In these exercises the use of good posture, proper balance, correct movement and use of the handblade are further explored. Basically we can say the sotai undo are breaking balance excercises by using the handblade.

In 1966, Senta Yamada wrote a book about aikido and explained the basic principles, Senta Yamada was a student of Morihei Ueshiba and Kenji Tomiki. He was a very nice gentleman, his judo and aikido was soft and flexible with a strenght which came from the inside. He always said : there are only 5 basic movements to study, if you don't understand these movements we cannot start with the study of Judo and Aikido.
Those 5 basic movements are the core of Tandoku Undo and Sotai Undo.

And now what about Ueshiba's aiki and IP. Kenji Tomiki was Ushiba's student from 1926.
He was a member of the teaching staff of the Aiki Kai Hombu dojo through the late 1950s. Kenji Tomiki must have the chance to see and to feel the internal power of Ueshiba.
I spoke with several students of Kenji Tomiki and they told me about the strength from within they felt when he was applying a technique. One of his students, Tadayuki Satoh is teaching now the relationship between judo and aikido according the principles Tomiki taught him. There are a lot of similarities between aikido and some judo kata (koshiki no kata, ju no kata, .....). In admiral Takeshita diaries there are many remarks which lead to techniques developed by Kodokan Judo (for example different forms of hiki otoshi)
Some years ago, dr Lee ah Loi made a remark about the way some people are doing Unsoku and Tandoku undo. The message was: the way most people are doing their unsoku and tandoku undo is just gymnastic and will not lead to a better understanding of Tomiki's aikido - and then she start to explain how to do.
With unsoku, tandoku undo and sotai undo we can develop the priciples of shizentai no ri, ju no ri and kuzushi no ri, which are the basic principles of Tomiki's aikido and also judo.
After understanding these principles we can start with different forms of randori and koryu no kata. For some of use we have the chance to enter competition and have first hand expierence and find out the answer to the question : do I have a good posture, is my movement in accordance with the opponent and do I have the strenght of kuzushi. Winning or losing is not the primary factor in shiai.
In Tomiki's aikido we never talk about internal power, but we try to develop and apply the basic principles. Those who are not satisfied with their aikido are looking around to find some magical power to control the opponent. But maybe if you look more deeper into your aikido training system you will find the answer.
Once they asked Senta Yamada to teach Goshin jitsu no kata, he refused because they didn't understand the basic principles. Of course during the seminar he explained some techniques from this kata which is based on aiki jutsu.

The old teachings of Morihei Ueshiba are preserved in the Koryu no kata, a set of about 150 techniques. Some of them almost identical with techniques in Budo Renshu (1933) and Budo (1938). Some of the techniques have a different origin. Kenji Tomiki and Hideo Ohba studied with Ueshiba and Kano and were exposed to many other budo.
For example, Hideo Ohba studied iai with Junichi Haga.
There are 6 kata divided into smaller sets. Most popular are the koryu no kata dai san (goshin no kata) and koryu no kata dai yon (kuzushi no kata).
Without the basic principles, those kata become like a dance without the strenght to control the opponent.

Who is this fellow who wrote this note ? I studied with Hideo Ohba and many old students of Tomiki sensei, also I studied with Hirokazu Kobayashi from Osaka.
I know what I am teaching my students, basic principles and it works... some of them entered shiai in Japan and showed the strength of Tomiki's aikido from within.
In shiai there are people who studied not only aikido but also judo, sambo, brazilian jujutsu...Some of them are also entering K1 fights. But they are attracted to Tomiki's Aikido shiai. One day you have to enter shiai and show your controlled internal power.
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Old 05-04-2011, 05:28 AM   #61
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Eddy Wolput wrote: View Post
In 1956 Kenji Tomiki explained the word Aikido :
"The old saying goes - it is in the spirit that carries the mind and controls the body- The people of ancient times believed that man's mind and body and consequently his strenght were under control of the spirit. Aiki means making your spirit "fit in" with your opponent's. In other words it means bringing your movements into accord with your opponent's. After all it means the same thing as the "principle of gentleness", for it is an explanation of the principle from within."

In 2005, Teruo Fujiwara wrote a paper about Judo Taiso (student of Kenji Tomiki in the fifties)
The Tandoku Undo are exercises to develop good posture and balance. The judo principle shizentai-no--ri is clearly expressed in these excercises. In these exercises the use of the handblade is a reflection of the many aiki-jutsu atemiwaza and kansetsuwaza. We cannot deny the influence of swordmanship in the use of the handblade (tegatana). The Sotai Undo are exercises which uses the kuzushi-no-ri principle of judo (breaking balance principle). In these exercises the use of good posture, proper balance, correct movement and use of the handblade are further explored. Basically we can say the sotai undo are breaking balance excercises by using the handblade.

In 1966, Senta Yamada wrote a book about aikido and explained the basic principles, Senta Yamada was a student of Morihei Ueshiba and Kenji Tomiki. He was a very nice gentleman, his judo and aikido was soft and flexible with a strenght which came from the inside. He always said : there are only 5 basic movements to study, if you don't understand these movements we cannot start with the study of Judo and Aikido.
Those 5 basic movements are the core of Tandoku Undo and Sotai Undo.

And now what about Ueshiba's aiki and IP. Kenji Tomiki was Ushiba's student from 1926.
He was a member of the teaching staff of the Aiki Kai Hombu dojo through the late 1950s. Kenji Tomiki must have the chance to see and to feel the internal power of Ueshiba.
I spoke with several students of Kenji Tomiki and they told me about the strength from within they felt when he was applying a technique. One of his students, Tadayuki Satoh is teaching now the relationship between judo and aikido according the principles Tomiki taught him. There are a lot of similarities between aikido and some judo kata (koshiki no kata, ju no kata, .....). In admiral Takeshita diaries there are many remarks which lead to techniques developed by Kodokan Judo (for example different forms of hiki otoshi)
Some years ago, dr Lee ah Loi made a remark about the way some people are doing Unsoku and Tandoku undo. The message was: the way most people are doing their unsoku and tandoku undo is just gymnastic and will not lead to a better understanding of Tomiki's aikido - and then she start to explain how to do.
With unsoku, tandoku undo and sotai undo we can develop the priciples of shizentai no ri, ju no ri and kuzushi no ri, which are the basic principles of Tomiki's aikido and also judo.
After understanding these principles we can start with different forms of randori and koryu no kata. For some of use we have the chance to enter competition and have first hand expierence and find out the answer to the question : do I have a good posture, is my movement in accordance with the opponent and do I have the strenght of kuzushi. Winning or losing is not the primary factor in shiai.
In Tomiki's aikido we never talk about internal power, but we try to develop and apply the basic principles. Those who are not satisfied with their aikido are looking around to find some magical power to control the opponent. But maybe if you look more deeper into your aikido training system you will find the answer.
Once they asked Senta Yamada to teach Goshin jitsu no kata, he refused because they didn't understand the basic principles. Of course during the seminar he explained some techniques from this kata which is based on aiki jutsu.

The old teachings of Morihei Ueshiba are preserved in the Koryu no kata, a set of about 150 techniques. Some of them almost identical with techniques in Budo Renshu (1933) and Budo (1938). Some of the techniques have a different origin. Kenji Tomiki and Hideo Ohba studied with Ueshiba and Kano and were exposed to many other budo.
For example, Hideo Ohba studied iai with Junichi Haga.
There are 6 kata divided into smaller sets. Most popular are the koryu no kata dai san (goshin no kata) and koryu no kata dai yon (kuzushi no kata).
Without the basic principles, those kata become like a dance without the strenght to control the opponent.

Who is this fellow who wrote this note ? I studied with Hideo Ohba and many old students of Tomiki sensei, also I studied with Hirokazu Kobayashi from Osaka.
I know what I am teaching my students, basic principles and it works... some of them entered shiai in Japan and showed the strength of Tomiki's aikido from within.
In shiai there are people who studied not only aikido but also judo, sambo, brazilian jujutsu...Some of them are also entering K1 fights. But they are attracted to Tomiki's Aikido shiai. One day you have to enter shiai and show your controlled internal power.
Hear Hear!!!!!
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Old 05-04-2011, 11:13 AM   #62
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
This is a good, interesting question, as I seem to recall somebody on here mentioning how Tomiki sensei conceived solo exercises (practicing the movement of the tegatana, I believe) while captive in Siberia, post-WWII, and how O'sensei was less than impressed when shown them...
I would suspect that Proff Ueshiba had realised that Tomiki Sensei had cottoned onto what Ueshiba was doing through his own research and Ueshiba had realised that Tomiki had stolen his "knowledge".... He was known to be a little "funny" about that when he told Tohei that Aikido was his.... According to Tohei he could be a little immature over some things..... It seems Tohei had it as did some others pre war, after that is where it seems to have gone a bit askew.
Lets face it, Takeda Sensei was in some ways let down and angry with Ueshiba after changing the techniques that he taught as Daito ryu... somewhere along the ways their rift got past the point of no return....
My own opinion is Tomiki Sensei had put together a condensed form of Daito ryu with Judo influence....
What happened after Tomiki's departure from the Aikikai is history and the biggest mistake the Aikikai ever made.....

Last edited by akiy : 05-04-2011 at 11:35 AM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
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Old 05-04-2011, 12:39 PM   #63
Gerardo Torres
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Eddy, thank you for the detailed response.

You quoted some teachers saying that Aikikai had "lost the roots of aikido" and elaborated that some pre-War styles such as Tomiki kept these roots through exercises based on "old Ueshiba teachings". I consider myself a beginner, so I asked what these old teachings were. Finally you explained what is developed by these exercises: good posture (shisei), affect balance (kuzushi) and "harmonizing/movement in accordance with opponent". These are pretty much the same principles that every teacher from different styles and organizations I've trained with -- including Aikikai shihan -- teach. In fact, I have NOT, ever, trained with a qualified Aikikai shihan who did not emphasize these principles in their teaching. I have not heard of any aikido style that does not put a strong emphasis on these basic principles.

Quote:
Eddy Wolput wrote:
We cannot deny the influence of swordmanship in the use of the handblade (tegatana).
Use of tegatana and relationship with the sword is common-ground teaching of almost every Aikikai shihan I've trained with. It's also a common teaching tool in other aikido styles as far as I know.

Quote:
Some years ago, dr Lee ah Loi made a remark about the way some people are doing Unsoku and Tandoku undo. The message was: the way most people are doing their unsoku and tandoku undo is just gymnastic and will not lead to a better understanding of Tomiki's aikido - and then she start to explain how to do.
In other words, some people do it right and get it, some don't -- sounds like the exact same situation in every single aikido style I know of.

As for "practice the basic forms (kata) for many years and you'll get it (maybe)" -- pretty much the same mantra of every Aikido style out there.

Quote:
In Tomiki's aikido we never talk about internal power, but we try to develop and apply the basic principles. Those who are not satisfied with their aikido are looking around to find some magical power to control the opponent.
Internal power is not a "magical power". It's a real, physical condition of the body that allows for efficient martial application. Aiki/IP is what made Ueshiba's aikido work the way it did. Tomiki felt it from Ueshiba, you say so in your post. If you don't want to talk about it, that's your prerogative.

Quote:
One day you have to enter shiai and show your controlled internal power.
I'm a beginner, Eddy, I've never claimed to have or know anything. My only reason to post here is to get information that can help me. I wanted YOU to tell me about internal power and aiki -- the root abilities of Ueshiba's aikido and presumably what he taught Tomiki, Tohei, Shioda, etc. in the pre-War days . I thought this is what you referred to when you said "old Ueshiba teachings". But since you think it's a "magical power" I guess I should direct my questions elsewhere.
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Old 05-04-2011, 01:46 PM   #64
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Gerardo Torres wrote: View Post
Eddy, thank you for the detailed response.

You quoted some teachers saying that Aikikai had "lost the roots of aikido" and elaborated that some pre-War styles such as Tomiki kept these roots through exercises based on "old Ueshiba teachings". I consider myself a beginner, so I asked what these old teachings were. Finally you explained what is developed by these exercises: good posture (shisei), affect balance (kuzushi) and "harmonizing/movement in accordance with opponent". These are pretty much the same principles that every teacher from different styles and organizations I've trained with -- including Aikikai shihan -- teach. In fact, I have NOT, ever, trained with a qualified Aikikai shihan who did not emphasize these principles in their teaching. I have not heard of any aikido style that does not put a strong emphasis on these basic principles.

Use of tegatana and relationship with the sword is common-ground teaching of almost every Aikikai shihan I've trained with. It's also a common teaching tool in other aikido styles as far as I know.

In other words, some people do it right and get it, some don't -- sounds like the exact same situation in every single aikido style I know of.

As for "practice the basic forms (kata) for many years and you'll get it (maybe)" -- pretty much the same mantra of every Aikido style out there.

Internal power is not a "magical power". It's a real, physical condition of the body that allows for efficient martial application. Aiki/IP is what made Ueshiba's aikido work the way it did. Tomiki felt it from Ueshiba, you say so in your post. If you don't want to talk about it, that's your prerogative.

I'm a beginner, Eddy, I've never claimed to have or know anything. My only reason to post here is to get information that can help me. I wanted YOU to tell me about internal power and aiki -- the root abilities of Ueshiba's aikido and presumably what he taught Tomiki, Tohei, Shioda, etc. in the pre-War days . I thought this is what you referred to when you said "old Ueshiba teachings". But since you think it's a "magical power" I guess I should direct my questions elsewhere.
He's already told you Gerardo........
Maybe study the Tomiki system and you will find out, the secret is in the basics and kihon. Constant study of the Koryu katas and the junanna kihon coupled with the solo exercises of tandoku undo and onsuku, also partaking in randori shiai will direct you to that conclusion. If you are still looking for some kind of magical power you are deluding yourself, it does not exist believe it.... Consider that all or most Shihan studied judo or other martial arts before doing aikido..... They had the core strength or "IP" if you want to call it that, before starting aikido....
I have studied and tried other systems including aikikai or "soft" systems and it has no semblance to what I found in Tomiki ryu..... Of course you will say I am biased, but that is your choice.....
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Old 05-04-2011, 02:16 PM   #65
DH
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
I started out studying Tomiki Aikido, and we practiced the Tandoku Undo exercises as a regular thing. More recently I've been learning internal aiki techniques from people who are working with Dan Harden, primarily my own sensei (Bill Gleason). I hate making absolute statements--maybe my Tomiki dojo didn't get it, or maybe I didn't get it--but I see no similarity at all between the two. I see more parallels between DH's aiki principles and baguazhang than with Tomiki.
Hello Hugh!!
Just to be more clear, I have heard things like this from Taiji, Bagua, Xing-I, Aikido Ki society, Koryu adepts, Goju,Uechi ryu, etc. Not my concern. I just do what I do.
To date the people who not only "saw things" in what I was doing, but could also pick up and do things the quickest were from Koryu and Daito ryu....hmm....

As for Aikido,...so far it has been my own experience that all the aikido community is doing is essentially fooling themselves that they are doing Ueshiba's aiki. For the most part, both in feel, in video, and in writing, the main stream is obviously deeply immersed in Kisshomaru's Aikido™ whether they know it or not.. The fact that aikido-ka cannot acknowledge all the testimony of Ueshiba's pushing and being pushed and the goals and how to's of various exercies from so many different sources, and why it mattered so much in developing the body to produce IP/aiki.. speaks volumes of their own ignorance of their art and the founders path.
As a talking point, anyone who espouses such ignorance of the practices of the founder should be a disqualifier from the start. It should speak for itself. The fact that it does not....also speaks volumes of the state of things and why so many of its shihan have so little power.

The students of the offshoots; Tohei, Tomiki, Shioda,,Shirata, Mochizuki, have some very big shoes to fill. Do you think the modern adepts of these branches have developed any better than mainstream Aikido™ ?

In the fullness of time, I think history will record the early years under Ueshiba; from the late thirties to forties as great years and they will be bookended with the time period perhaps ten years from now...when more people have developed IP/aiki and begin to do aiki....do.
With everything in between, including the present age, being greatly discounted as a wrong direction the art took due to many inept and poorly trained teachers that were sent out from Japan in the sixties and onward.
I think westerners are going to fix the art, and not the Japanese.
I don't really think the Japanese know how. The westerners who insist on putting a "Japanese face" on the art are going to be self evident.
Just say'n
Dan
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Old 05-04-2011, 02:24 PM   #66
Gorgeous George
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hello Hugh!!
Just to be more clear, I have heard things like this from Taiji, Bagua, Xing-I, Aikido Ki society, Koryu adepts, Goju,Uechi ryu, etc. Not my concern. I just do what I do.
To date the people who not only "saw things" in what I was doing, but could also pick up and do things the quickest were from Koryu and Daito ryu....hmm....

As for Aikido,...so far it has been my own experience that all the aikido community is doing is essentially fooling themselves that they are doing Ueshiba's aiki. For the most part, both in feel, in video, and in writing, the main stream is obviously deeply immersed in Kisshomaru's Aikido™ whether they know it or not.. The fact that aikido-ka cannot acknowledge all the testimony of Ueshiba's pushing and being pushed and the goals and how to's of various exercies from so many different sources, and why it mattered so much in developing the body to produce IP/aiki.. speaks volumes of their own ignorance of their art and the founders path.
As a talking point, anyone who espouses such ignorance of the practices of the founder should be a disqualifier from the start. It should speak for itself. The fact that it does not....also speaks volumes of the state of things and why so many of its shihan have so little power.

The students of the offshoots; Tohei, Tomiki, Shioda,,Shirata, Mochizuki, have some very big shoes to fill. Do you think the modern adepts of these branches have developed any better than mainstream Aikido™ ?

In the fullness of time, I think history will record the early years under Ueshiba; from the late thirties to forties as great years and they will be bookended with the time period perhaps ten years from now...when more people have developed IP/aiki and begin to do aiki....do.
With everything in between, including the present age, being greatly discounted as a wrong direction the art took due to many inept and poorly trained teachers that were sent out from Japan in the sixties and onward.
I think westerners are going to fix the art, and not the Japanese.
I don't really think the Japanese know how. The westerners who insist on putting a "Japanese face" on the art are going to be self evident.
Just say'n
Dan
Interesting.
What do you think of Seigo Yamaguchi, and those continuing his approach?
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Old 05-04-2011, 02:30 PM   #67
DH
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
He's already told you Gerardo........
Maybe study the Tomiki system and you will find out, the secret is in the basics and kihon. Constant study of the Koryu katas and the junanna kihon coupled with the solo exercises of tandoku undo and onsuku, also partaking in randori shiai will direct you to that conclusion. If you are still looking for some kind of magical power you are deluding yourself, it does not exist believe it.... Consider that all or most Shihan studied judo or other martial arts before doing aikido..... They had the core strength or "IP" if you want to call it that, before starting aikido....
I have studied and tried other systems including aikikai or "soft" systems and it has no semblance to what I found in Tomiki ryu..... Of course you will say I am biased, but that is your choice.....
Actually once again you are talking down to people without cause or knowledge. You are talking to someone who has felt it and I strongly doubt you are going to get him to change his mind any day soon.
You keep forgetting that some of the people you are talking to are experienced and have formed their own opinions through those experiences.
Case in point: When you rant about effectiveness to people who grew up wrestling, in Judo, MT and FMA and you call them bunnies because they talk about IP. It' comes off rather hilarious for many of us but you haven't gotten that yet. It would be like you telling Rik he can't take a punch. Yes, it's that stupid
The people you are addressing just aren't telling you their backgrounds..

Core strength is not IP or aiki, and judo (though I love it) is not a qualifier for it. I would say you just don't know that you don't know, and that places you next to and equal to, hundreds who have said pretty much the same thing....then changed their minds. no harm, no foul. I thought the same way twenty years ago.
It's why I never get mad at you. Years ago I would have been agreeing with you!!
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-04-2011 at 02:44 PM.
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Old 05-04-2011, 02:35 PM   #68
DH
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Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
Interesting.
What do you think of Seigo Yamaguchi, and those continuing his approach?
For starters I was not being all inclusive-that's impossible- I was speaking generally.
There will be an interview coming out on Aikido Journal with a Shihan who studied privately with Yamagchi for 11 years, and aikido for 46 years and has had some interesting recent experiences of late.
Maybe you can ask him some questions then. A link will be posted here.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 05-04-2011, 02:56 PM   #69
Chris Li
 
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
For starters I was not being all inclusive-that's impossible- I was speaking generally.
There will be an interview coming out on Aikido Journal with a Shihan who studied privately with Yamagchi for 11 years, and aikido for 46 years and has had some interesting recent experiences of late.
Maybe you can ask him some questions then. A link will be posted here.
Cheers
Dan
Looking forward to that interview Dan!

FWIW, I trained with Yamaguchi (although not as long as the guy above), and fairly extensively with a number of his students.

IMO, Yamaguchi and his students had some parts (but not all) of what Dan is talking about, but they had no idea how they got it or how to transmit it (and many of those folks will say much the same thing if you talk to them).

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-04-2011, 03:22 PM   #70
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
In the fullness of time, I think history will record the early years under Ueshiba; from the late thirties to forties as great years and they will be bookended with the time period perhaps ten years from now...when more people have developed IP/aiki and begin to do aiki....do.
With everything in between, including the present age, being greatly discounted as a wrong direction the art took due to many inept and poorly trained teachers that were sent out from Japan in the sixties and onward.
I think westerners are going to fix the art, and not the Japanese.
I'm not holding my breath waiting for that.

Really, I don't think the aikido community at large, from the file and rank to shihan level, is interested about IP/Aiki spreading.
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Old 05-04-2011, 03:38 PM   #71
ewolput
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Hi Dan, why you are so negative about a martial art which maybe you practiced somewhere on this globe. But I suppose you have not been in all the places of this globe. In fact I never met you during one of the tomiki shiai, maybe I can be wrong.
For Tomiki aikido,those koryu no kata are a heritage from the past made by people who had first hand experience with Ueshiba. It is the duty of contemporary tomiki aikido people to study those methods and try to understand why it was done in this way and to have an insight why Tomiki created his system. If they are not interested in those things, maybe it is better not to call it Tomiki aikido. I can't remember if Tomiki or even Kano used the term Internal power. They tried to educate people by a system based on old martial teachings.
Why do judo people study old kata? Is it a question of understanding the origin of their art? Same for people who are doing iaido, kendo or jodo.....
Maybe they are also looking for some "magic" and they don't know how to find it;
Sometimes the discussions here are similar to a debate about can we use a cello in electronic pop music. Most of the cellist will say no, because they learned with the best teachers in the world and those teachers said "no". But there are some cellist who created a new way of playing and could bring cello in electronic pop music. Maybe they found the internal power of cello playing

But my initial question is : are there old Ueshiba students who openly made some critisism about the training system? And it was not my intention to start a debate about IP. This topic I leave to others who are looking for IP.
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Old 05-04-2011, 03:45 PM   #72
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Eddy Wolput wrote: View Post
Hi Dan, why you are so negative about a martial art which maybe you practiced somewhere on this globe. But I suppose you have not been in all the places of this globe. In fact I never met you during one of the tomiki shiai, maybe I can be wrong..
He's not all that negative in person - it's more like frustration at wasted potential. And it's not just him - it's a whole bunch of Aikido 5th, 6th and 7th dans that are working with him on a regular basis.

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Eddy Wolput wrote: View Post
But my initial question is : are there old Ueshiba students who openly made some critisism about the training system? And it was not my intention to start a debate about IP. This topic I leave to others who are looking for IP.
Well, Gozo Shioda, off the top of my head. Many others too, from private conversations that I've had.

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-04-2011, 04:02 PM   #73
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Actually once again you are talking down to people without cause or knowledge. You are talking to someone who has felt it and I strongly doubt you are going to get him to change his mind any day soon.
You keep forgetting that some of the people you are talking to are experienced and have formed their own opinions through those experiences.
Case in point: When you rant about effectiveness to people who grew up wrestling, in Judo, MT and FMA and you call them bunnies because they talk about IP. It' comes off rather hilarious for many of us but you haven't gotten that yet. It would be like you telling Rik he can't take a punch. Yes, it's that stupid
The people you are addressing just aren't telling you their backgrounds..

Core strength is not IP or aiki, and judo (though I love it) is not a qualifier for it. I would say you just don't know that you don't know, and that places you next to and equal to, hundreds who have said pretty much the same thing....then changed their minds. no harm, no foul. I thought the same way twenty years ago.
It's why I never get mad at you. Years ago I would have been agreeing with you!!
Cheers
Dan
It's strange Dan that you have it and nobody else does, but we have been there before, so there you go. I agree that some in T/S don't always have it....... I know what I know and my students do to. Some get it some don't..... I have passed it on to them as best I know how and the strange part is the ones that put that extra effort in are the better ones from a power point of view who are getting "it" so to speak and it's not just muscle power, it is coming from the core.....
So maybe 20 years ago I didn't have "it" but through my own experimentation I have acquired "something" maybe similar to your "discovery"
I don't know how to put it in words but I feel mine emanates from my core and not the extremities....
But we all know where you are coming from....
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Old 05-04-2011, 04:19 PM   #74
DH
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
It's strange Dan that you have it and nobody else does, but we have been there before, so there you go.....
I am the only one? When did that happen? Strange, that I have routinely said the opposite of that, Tony, You should listen better.
Quote:
I agree that some in T/S don't always have it....... I know what I know and my students do to. Some get it some don't..... I have passed it on to them as best I know how and the strange part is the ones that put that extra effort in are the better ones from a power point of view who are getting "it" so to speak and it's not just muscle power, it is coming from the core.....
So maybe 20 years ago I didn't have "it" but through my own experimentation I have acquired "something" maybe similar to your "discovery"
I don't know how to put it in words but I feel mine emanates from my core and not the extremities....
But we all know where you are coming from
My "discovery?"
Apparently you have no clue where I am coming from.
FWIW since "this discovery" has been around for generations, and is the core of what Takeda, Sagawa, Ueshiba,.Shioda, Tomiki and others were doing; how do your constant comments about "magic power" and "woo woo," "fairies" "ribbons" and "aikibunnies" fit in to what they were doing?.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 05-04-2011 at 04:23 PM.
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Old 05-04-2011, 04:20 PM   #75
Marc Abrams
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
It's strange Dan that you have it and nobody else does, but we have been there before, so there you go. I agree that some in T/S don't always have it....... I know what I know and my students do to. Some get it some don't..... I have passed it on to them as best I know how and the strange part is the ones that put that extra effort in are the better ones from a power point of view who are getting "it" so to speak and it's not just muscle power, it is coming from the core.....
So maybe 20 years ago I didn't have "it" but through my own experimentation I have acquired "something" maybe similar to your "discovery"
I don't know how to put it in words but I feel mine emanates from my core and not the extremities....
But we all know where you are coming from....
Tony:

Please cite your source as to where Dan claims that he has "IT" and nobody else does. If you cannot find that source, then kindly issue an apology for your "mistake." Dan has been open about acknowledging other people in the community that have some of "IT" as well (Dan never claimed to or currently claims to have all of "IT").

Using one of Dan's quotes "You don't know what you don't know." One of the people that Dan has mentioned (myself as well), Ushiro Sensei says something like "the biggest block to your learning is what you already think that you know."

You have been encouraged to experience at least one of those two people and you have alternated by being dismissive of what you might learn/experience or claim that you already have "IT."

Very senior martial artists train with both Dan and Ushiro Sensei. Maybe, just maybe they do so for very good reason. You would never know why until you experienced for yourself. Then again, you can continue to claim mutually incompatible reasons for not wanting to experience either of them..... Kind of fitting what the moniker is at the bottom of your posts. Maybe it is you who is afraid of the truth, because it might hurt you to realize how much you didn't learn after all.

Marc Abrams
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