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Old 05-04-2011, 08:52 AM   #176
Lee Crockett
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

There have been a lot of interesting comments on this thread.

However, the numerous references to individual Aikido are wrong. There is only ONE Aikido – unification of body and mind with the universal, not my words Arikawa.

What everyone is alluding to is an individual’s interpretation of implementation of the techniques. However, the techniques ARE NOT Aikido.

Aikido can also be found in Calligraphy, Bonsai, Tea Ceremony etc.

O’Sensei used the martial arts, Ju-Jitsu, to find Aikido.

Aikido IS NOT about a physical manifestation, it is a spiritual joining between ones self and the universal/creation.

Just by repeated training of the physical budo will not lead to Aikido. This is why only few reach such a level.

IMHO only O’Sensei and Kanshu Sunadomari have reached it.

This is what I was talking about. The Aikido that O’Sensei produced can only be attained not just by earnest physical training, but by a spiritual enlightening.

You can train 24/7, 365 days a year, but will only become competent in execution of techniques, not Aikido.
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Old 05-04-2011, 08:59 AM   #177
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
There have been a lot of interesting comments on this thread.

However, the numerous references to individual Aikido are wrong. There is only ONE Aikido -- unification of body and mind with the universal, not my words Arikawa.

What everyone is alluding to is an individual's interpretation of implementation of the techniques. However, the techniques ARE NOT Aikido.

Aikido can also be found in Calligraphy, Bonsai, Tea Ceremony etc.

O'Sensei used the martial arts, Ju-Jitsu, to find Aikido.

Aikido IS NOT about a physical manifestation, it is a spiritual joining between ones self and the universal/creation.

Just by repeated training of the physical budo will not lead to Aikido. This is why only few reach such a level.

IMHO only O'Sensei and Kanshu Sunadomari have reached it.

This is what I was talking about. The Aikido that O'Sensei produced can only be attained not just by earnest physical training, but by a spiritual enlightening.

You can train 24/7, 365 days a year, but will only become competent in execution of techniques, not Aikido.
sounds like ai-ki-do, which is all fine and good, but I want to be doing aiki-do.
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Old 05-04-2011, 09:06 AM   #178
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Rudy Ternbach wrote: View Post
Weird how? Shapiro Sensei appears to be a very dedicated disciple of OSensei and someone who is committed to Aikido as "The Art of Peace". All Aikido instructors have their quirks.
Sure he is very dedicated, commited and a nice person but (maybe 'weird' was a poorly chosen word on my part) as a result of an interview published in a spanish magazine in 2008 I've been watching some of his lectures and reading other interviews. There's something in his non verbal communication (and in his statements) that, I don't know how to explain, makes me nervous/scared/gives me bad vibrations... but it's probably my fault.

Anyway, you can see him lecturing here (lots of videos of him demonstrating and lecturing): http://www.youtube.com/user/kinonagareAikido

His website: http://kinonagare.com/

The interview that initially draw my attention: http://www.aikiforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=27877#27877

Another interview (in French): http://www.aikidojournal.eu/docs/154/282_946_de.pdf

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 05-04-2011 at 09:11 AM. Reason: grammar-clarification
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Old 05-04-2011, 09:52 AM   #179
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
....There's something in his non verbal communication (and in his statements) that, I don't know how to explain, makes me nervous/scared/gives me bad vibrations... but it's probably my fault....
Anyway, you can see him lecturing here (lots of videos of him demonstrating and lecturing): http://www.youtube.com/user/kinonagareAikidoHis website: http://kinonagare.com/
The interview that initially draw my attention: http://www.aikiforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=27877#27877
Another interview (in French): http://www.aikidojournal.eu/docs/154/282_946_de.pdf
Thank you for the links. From what I've learned on the web about Shapiro Sensei he appears quite different from the Shihans I've been exposed to (Mitsunari Kanai, Yoshimitsu Yamada, Morihiru Saito, T.K. Chiba). He lectures on religious matters more than many other senseis. Trained in an alternative kind of Western Psychology. Associated a lot with French akidoka even while in Japan. And, I can say this because I'm older than the average player, he's of a certain age. I think I understand how he might seem a bit weird to some of even the best students. Seems we all get quirkier with age.

Last edited by abraxis : 05-04-2011 at 10:00 AM. Reason: Didn't say what I meant.
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Old 05-04-2011, 12:06 PM   #180
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Rudy Ternbach wrote: View Post
And, I can say this because I'm older than the average player, he's of a certain age. I think I understand how he might seem a bit weird to some of even the best students. Seems we all get quirkier with age.
It's not his age, it's something different.

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote:
IMHO only O’Sensei and Kanshu Sunadomari have reached it.
Can you ellaborate on why you consider Sunadomari Sensei as the only(not counting the founder) who reached this enlightement?
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Old 05-04-2011, 12:25 PM   #181
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
It's not his age, it's something different.
pretentious seems fitting, unless he can demonstrate what he says.
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Old 05-04-2011, 01:58 PM   #182
Diana Frese
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Maybe it's a good time for me to throw a few thoughts and impressions into the mix.... I remember Arikawa Sensei once gave a definition of Aikido when a group of us were sitting in the little coffee shop ... Ten Chi Jin no Wago no Michi, I think it was. The harmony of heaven, earth, and human beings....

Very strong Aikido, but reminiscent of elemental forces in nature, at least a few of us have described it....

It seems to me that these various students of O Sensei have varying ways of transmitting what they learned ... different practice, different ways of teaching, and my personal opinion is that each of us can absorb thru them from O Sensei in the ways most natural to us as individuals ...

One thing is striking, however, that students who actually met O Sensei were profoundly impressed, for example among the Americans, Mary Heiny, Peter Shapiro, Terry Dobson. The latter two seem to have very intense feelings about it and it shows in their teaching. I only met Mary Heiny once, and hope to meet her again. Perhaps her way of passing on the message is more subtle, I think she did not train with him for a long period, nevertheless, meeting him affected her whole life...

Just a few thoughts and reminiscences, hoping to facilitate the discussion a little more...
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Old 05-04-2011, 02:50 PM   #183
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

I, too want to thank Demetrio for the links. I read the one in English, and by the way maybe I could modify the translation of Wa as harmony to bringing human beings "into accord with" heaven and earth? I'm not sure what English word the translator used back in "the little coffee shop" that day we happened to have a chance to ask Arikawa Sensei a question.

Judging by his interview, Peter, an expert in music and art, it turns out, must have a strict interpretation of the word harmony, I think.

Yamada Sensei, Kanai Sensei and Chiba Sensei were all three good friends of each other, but their way of teaching and communicating with their students was very different.... They believed Aikido was of benefit to people and have devoted, and in the case of Yamada Sensei and Chiba Sensei are still devoting their lives to passing it on to others. Unfortunately Kanai Sensei passed on in 2004 and Sugano Sensei another good friend of Yamada Sensei, in 2010....

About the "opening the heart" mention in the English language quote, Peter may be referring to "ame no iwato biraki" the opening of the rock cave of heaven that was mentioned in the coffee shop discussions after class. I will have to read more, but it refers to the legend of the Sun Goddess Amaterasu O Mikami hiding in a cave and how the other Kami managed to trick her into coming back out and restoring the life giving illumination....

I'll have to wait for my husband to return from work to listen to the video, I don't know how to plug in the sound!

thanks again, everyone. I never lost my interest in Aikido, but up till now it would have been very difficult to train much. However, Aiki Web has gotten my husband interested again, so I am grateful to all of you....
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Old 05-04-2011, 03:20 PM   #184
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
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.... I never lost my interest in Aikido, but up till now it would have been very difficult to train much. However, Aiki Web has gotten my husband interested again, so I am grateful to all of you....
Dear Diana,

You and your husband should both think about getting back into attending classes. Age shouldn't be a barrier to doing Aikido. I was given 5th Kyu by Kanai Sensei in '76 and didn't take any more training for 35 years after that until last week. Perpetual beginner isn't the worst thing. Being overweight and kind of fragile is also not the worst. The worst is not doing classes. Let them know your limitations. You can always take breaks. You have a great deal to offer--it will be some 20-something nidan's privilege to be your partner.

Best regards,

Rudy

Last edited by abraxis : 05-04-2011 at 03:20 PM. Reason: Had more to say.
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Old 05-04-2011, 03:49 PM   #185
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Diana Frese wrote: View Post
About the "opening the heart" mention in the English language quote, Peter may be referring to "ame no iwato biraki" the opening of the rock cave of heaven that was mentioned in the coffee shop discussions after class. I will have to read more, but it refers to the legend of the Sun Goddess Amaterasu O Mikami hiding in a cave and how the other Kami managed to trick her into coming back out and restoring the life giving illumination....
Ame-no-Uzume-no-Mikoto, by means of lewd dancing and the conmotion it caused, tricked the Sun Goddess outside. BTW, which kami married Ame-no-Uzume-no-Mikoto?
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Old 05-04-2011, 04:04 PM   #186
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Ame-no-Uzume-no-Mikoto, by means of lewd dancing and the conmotion it caused, tricked the Sun Goddess outside. BTW, which kami married Ame-no-Uzume-no-Mikoto?
(Raises hand) Ooh! Ooh! I know this one!
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Old 05-05-2011, 05:22 AM   #187
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
There have been a lot of interesting comments on this thread.

However, the numerous references to individual Aikido are wrong. There is only ONE Aikido -- unification of body and mind with the universal, not my words Arikawa.

What everyone is alluding to is an individual's interpretation of implementation of the techniques. However, the techniques ARE NOT Aikido.

Aikido can also be found in Calligraphy, Bonsai, Tea Ceremony etc.

O'Sensei used the martial arts, Ju-Jitsu, to find Aikido.

Aikido IS NOT about a physical manifestation, it is a spiritual joining between ones self and the universal/creation.

Just by repeated training of the physical budo will not lead to Aikido. This is why only few reach such a level.

IMHO only O'Sensei and Kanshu Sunadomari have reached it.

This is what I was talking about. The Aikido that O'Sensei produced can only be attained not just by earnest physical training, but by a spiritual enlightening.

You can train 24/7, 365 days a year, but will only become competent in execution of techniques, not Aikido.
Right Lee, let us know when you get there, I shall be all ears. I'm not doing "aikido" any more so it doesn't really matter to much..... When I see you tossing around 250 pounders with ease, without the slightest scathing, I shall immediately want to join your club.. You take care now.....
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Old 05-05-2011, 07:06 AM   #188
Lee Crockett
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Tony, im not sure of the intention of your post.

Ive never made any such claim to be able to toss around 250 pounders, im not there......yet hopefully. Yet my Sensei can do most things on most people, and we have some very strong guys in our dojo.
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Old 05-05-2011, 09:07 PM   #189
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
Tony, im not sure of the intention of your post.

Ive never made any such claim to be able to toss around 250 pounders, im not there......yet hopefully. Yet my Sensei can do most things on most people, and we have some very strong guys in our dojo.
Oh Lee, look at your post old son..... Why think that only Proff Ueshiba and Sunadomari are the only ones that you think that can do your ideal "aikido" ? Good as an inspiration yes.......
I think you are on the right tracks going by your posts so why not develop what you are doing and find it within yourself, don't try to be like them, you can't 'cause you aren't. They, your teachers have given you the "tools" so to speak, to try out for yourself as my teachers gave to me, but I don't look anything like them, maybe a semblance but definitely not the same.... I think you have to find it within your own body and mind..... Proff Ueshiba wasn't perfect, very skilled yes, but not perfect.... None of us are, otherwise we would all have the perfect MA..... It don't exist... If it did we would see "aikido" winning outright all the time, including the sports arena.... Think about it: straightf
If you are talking about spirituality then you would probably have to study the omoto religion to understand where he was coming from. according to Tohei, Ueshiba believed in spirits and the like, so for him that is where it comes from I would imagine.... also the aesthetic practices involved with that.....
Consider Takeda his teacher, was he spiritual? I doubt it very much, but he was extraordinarily effective.....

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 05-05-2011 at 09:16 PM.
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Old 05-06-2011, 02:59 AM   #190
Lee Crockett
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Tony,

Thanks for your post, but it lacks some understanding.

I cannot be doing an “ideal Aikido”, as I said previously, it was Arikawa who stated “there is only one Aikido”, not many. There are many “Tools” for finding Aikido, that is where the many come into it and hence the many training methods for finding Aikido.

Takeda was skilled in a jitsu art, not Aikido. jitsu is physical; Aikido goes beyond the physical to the metaphysical. That is why O’Senseis skills went beyond the physical skills of Takeda.

Also, i havent seen anything of Arikawa, but others have and they state that he could do Aikido. I didnt name him because i had no experience of his training.

I am looking to find Aikido, “unification with the universal” (Note – Aikido IS NOT the techniques used to train, they are tools, it’s the 9 elements that help us on the way to FIND Aikido). Agreed this is a high ideal, but as I said, just repeating techniques 24/7 365 days will make you competent in delivering techniques, not Aikido. To find Aikido you must go beyond the purely physical, this is where I am trying to focus my training with the assistance of my instructor.

It is my understanding that moving beyond the physical requires, in O’Senseis terms “an enlightening (spirituality)”. Now how does this happen? I have no idea, but at least I have a goal to aim for.

My interpretation at my level is that to achieve this “enlightening (spirituality)” we have to focus on internalisation of our training which then manifests itself in a physical form. For O’Sensei, the Omotokyo religion was a vehicle for this.

This week I simply could not do a technique and spent an hour persisting with it. How did I eventually manage to do it? By following the principals of the ken, yin and yang and correct breathing., in other words, internal training, not physical, though there has to be a physical manifestation This I believe, at my level is the beginning of the path to even try and complete techniques beyond the physical.

This I believe is a process O’Sensei went through in his training too. Am I sure? of course not. But to find Aikido we HAVE to move beyond a physical art, and at my current level, I do not know of another way.

Practice solely in the pure physical will not lead to the discovery of Aikido.

A question if I may Tony, do you think you are doing Aikido? I know I am not, nowhere near it. But through my own endeavours, I am training towards it.
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Old 05-06-2011, 03:06 AM   #191
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
Takeda was skilled in a jitsu art, not Aikido. jitsu is physical; Aikido goes beyond the physical to the metaphysical. That is why O’Senseis skills went beyond the physical skills of Takeda.
Went beyond according to who?

I'll admit that Ueshiba added a metaphysical/philosophical dimension to the physical skill of "Aiki", and that this dimension was vital to the purposes and intentions of his art, but that doesn't mean that his physical skill exceeded (or even matched) Takeda's.

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-06-2011, 03:47 AM   #192
Lee Crockett
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

I did not say that O'Senseis skills exceeded Takedas.

What i said was that O'Senseis skills went BEYOND the physical skills of Takeda.

If you want a direct comparisson in terms of ability, im not sure one can be made, but all i can say is that why is it O'Senseis abilities that are marvelled at over the last half century and not Takedas?
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Old 05-06-2011, 04:43 AM   #193
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
Tony,

Thanks for your post, but it lacks some understanding.

I cannot be doing an "ideal Aikido", as I said previously, it was Arikawa who stated "there is only one Aikido", not many. There are many "Tools" for finding Aikido, that is where the many come into it and hence the many training methods for finding Aikido.

Takeda was skilled in a jitsu art, not Aikido. jitsu is physical; Aikido goes beyond the physical to the metaphysical. That is why O'Senseis skills went beyond the physical skills of Takeda.

Also, i havent seen anything of Arikawa, but others have and they state that he could do Aikido. I didnt name him because i had no experience of his training.

I am looking to find Aikido, "unification with the universal" (Note -- Aikido IS NOT the techniques used to train, they are tools, it's the 9 elements that help us on the way to FIND Aikido). Agreed this is a high ideal, but as I said, just repeating techniques 24/7 365 days will make you competent in delivering techniques, not Aikido. To find Aikido you must go beyond the purely physical, this is where I am trying to focus my training with the assistance of my instructor.

It is my understanding that moving beyond the physical requires, in O'Senseis terms "an enlightening (spirituality)". Now how does this happen? I have no idea, but at least I have a goal to aim for.

My interpretation at my level is that to achieve this "enlightening (spirituality)" we have to focus on internalisation of our training which then manifests itself in a physical form. For O'Sensei, the Omotokyo religion was a vehicle for this.

This week I simply could not do a technique and spent an hour persisting with it. How did I eventually manage to do it? By following the principals of the ken, yin and yang and correct breathing., in other words, internal training, not physical, though there has to be a physical manifestation This I believe, at my level is the beginning of the path to even try and complete techniques beyond the physical.

This I believe is a process O'Sensei went through in his training too. Am I sure? of course not. But to find Aikido we HAVE to move beyond a physical art, and at my current level, I do not know of another way.

Practice solely in the pure physical will not lead to the discovery of Aikido.

A question if I may Tony, do you think you are doing Aikido? I know I am not, nowhere near it. But through my own endeavours, I am training towards it.
I don't think I'm doing aikido in the sense that you speak about. I am a rational person and I do not believe in spooks and spirits of what ever form, Whereas Proff Ueshiba did..... Tohei, the only one awarded 10th dan? Did not believe in them either according to his interview in AJ. I am doing aikido according to Tomiki Sensei but I do not look or even move like him, but am seeing what he taught and understood to some degree, as I got it second hand, the tools that is, so according to you Lee I am not doing the aikido that you aspire to..... As for Takeda I think he was martially superior in the physical sense, maybe a hothead, but well trusted by those in high places...... It is said that Ueshiba wasn't the placid smiling guru that many allude to, and he could lose his rag as much as any one else.... so there you go take your pick..... I just see "aikido" as another tool to be picked up or discarded whichever way you look at it. I don't see it as the all and be all. It has it's limitations just like anything else
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Old 05-06-2011, 05:01 AM   #194
Lee Crockett
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Tony,

Thanks for commenting, but we have now come full circle.

In my original post i was alluding to the fact that we are not doing O'Senseis Aikido, which you have just confirmed you are not doing in your post.

Therefore, if what you are doing is NOT O'Senseis Aikido, if the definition of Aikido is"Unification with the Universal" then why do you persist in calling what you do Aikido? It is not, it is a Jitsu.

Until Aikidoka through their training can create "Unification with the Universal", they are not doing Aikido, they are practicing physical techniques, a Jitsu.

We train TOWARDS Aikido.

Unless you can tell me anyone in the world today who does Aikido by O'Seseis definition then the word Aikido is incorrectly being used globally today to describe the physical training being disseminated.
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Old 05-06-2011, 05:28 AM   #195
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
Tony,

Thanks for commenting, but we have now come full circle.

In my original post i was alluding to the fact that we are not doing O'Senseis Aikido, which you have just confirmed you are not doing in your post.

Therefore, if what you are doing is NOT O'Senseis Aikido, if the definition of Aikido is"Unification with the Universal" then why do you persist in calling what you do Aikido? It is not, it is a Jitsu.

Until Aikidoka through their training can create "Unification with the Universal", they are not doing Aikido, they are practicing physical techniques, a Jitsu.

We train TOWARDS Aikido.

Unless you can tell me anyone in the world today who does Aikido by O'Seseis definition then the word Aikido is incorrectly being used globally today to describe the physical training being disseminated.
Going by that....... yes. That is why I say I don't do "aikido" anymore as according to yours and others I am not, so therefore they/you must be right, so I am doing jutsu according to Tomiki/Shodokan, or my version of it..... or "ecky thump" 'ampshire 'og style......
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Old 05-06-2011, 05:35 AM   #196
Lee Crockett
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Now all we have to do Tony is to get the rest of the "Aikido" world to understand this and we (globally) can move forward.

It needs to start witht the Hombu and the Doshu, but i dont believe this will ever happen.
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Old 05-06-2011, 06:44 AM   #197
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

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Now all we have to do Tony is to get the rest of the "Aikido" world to understand this and we (globally) can move forward.

It needs to start witht the Hombu and the Doshu, but i dont believe this will ever happen.
Best 'o' luck Lee.......

Methinks you are right..... Are you really that "worried" or "concerned" about it? I'm not... I enjoy what I do and it has helped me to understand myself a wee bit. It has protected me to some degree and it does work, so great. I'm no fighter or master technician, but I can defend myself if the need arises.... I'm one of those silly sods who won't go down unless you knock me out, then it doesn't matter as I won't feel it till later, who cares?
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Old 05-06-2011, 09:00 AM   #198
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
it is a Jitsu.
.
Jutsu. That's how we (people who use the roman alphabet) have been spelling it since the turn of the twentieth century.

術.

If you are going to troll the forum for two weeks with your Aiki-Lutheranism you ought to attend to these details.

Last edited by Cliff Judge : 05-06-2011 at 09:05 AM.
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Old 05-06-2011, 09:12 AM   #199
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Jutsu. That's how we (people who use the roman alphabet) have been spelling it since the turn of the twentieth century.
A bit later.
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Old 05-06-2011, 10:06 AM   #200
Chris Li
 
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
If you want a direct comparisson in terms of ability, im not sure one can be made, but all i can say is that why is it O'Senseis abilities that are marvelled at over the last half century and not Takedas?
Better PR, mostly. Who was better is probably a pointless argument - but I don't think that it's a given that Ueshiba was.

Best,

Chris

Last edited by akiy : 05-06-2011 at 11:01 AM. Reason: Fixed quote tag

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