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Old 04-30-2011, 08:06 AM   #26
Gorgeous George
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Eddy Wolput wrote: View Post
In Tomiki Aikido, the old Ueshiba teachings are kept alive in what is called Koryu no kata, which is basically old prewar teachings from Ueshiba.
Also Iwama style has some original teachings.
In Minoru Mochizuki Yoseikan aikido you can find original prewar teachning........

Maybe others can add more
Aikido didn't exist, pre-war, did it...?

As for the criticisms of the Aikikai, aren't the sources very important? - i.e., I have heard Chiba sensei - a man most respected by at least a few contributors here - once remarked that Tomiki sensei 'Missed the point' of aikido; and I think I recall anecdotes about Tadashi Abe which I read here, talking about him lamenting his missed opportunity to be a suicide bomber during WWII; carrying a knife with him - to give to other people when he got in a fight; and being expelled from France because he kept starting fights.

If that's pre-war aikido, I can't wait 'til it's well and truly dead.
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Old 04-30-2011, 09:49 AM   #27
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Henry Ellis wrote :
After the incident at the Hombu dojo it is my understanding that Tadashi Abe never ever went back. I had told Chiba Sensei that Abe Sensei was a teacher we had all admired, Chiba Sensei replied " Tadashi Abe Sensei has always been my hero " .

And about Tomiki Sensei, he was a shihan at the Aikikai in the fifties, Chiba started aikido in 1958 after Tomiki Sensei formulated his aiki randori method which was not well accepted by the Aikikai. Chiba can have critisim on the randori method but saying he missed the point...... what point?

And Aikido started after the war and nothing before??
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Old 04-30-2011, 10:07 AM   #28
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

OSensei named his martial art Aikido in 1942 if I recall ?
He named it - he didn't find it in a cupboard.......he had been developing the art for many years...

Tadashi Abe left France to deal with an urgent / serious problem involving his family business.

Henry Ellis
Aikido Controversy
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Old 04-30-2011, 10:16 AM   #29
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
OSensei named his martial art Aikido in 1942 if I recall ?
"I was the Director of General Affairs of the Kobukan beginning around 1942 and I helped out Ueshiba Sensei in daily matters. “Aikido,” rather than being a specifically selected name, was the term used to refer to “Butokukai-Ryu” aiki budo within the Dai Nippon Butokukai. The headquarters of the Dai Nippon Butokukai was located in Kyoto and Butokuden centers were set up in all prefectures. Tatsuo Hisatomi from the Kodokan, and Shohei Fujinuma from kendo, were close friends of mine. The Butokukai was an independent, umbrella organization for the martial arts, and it also was in charge of martial arts in the police departments.
...
In other words, the term “aikido” was a cover-all term that could include other things as well. Mr. Hisatomi’s idea was to intentionally select a name that would not be opposed by kendo or other martial arts, but rather an inoffensive, comprehensive term to group together all of the yawara schools. In the end, no one opposed this proposal."


Minoru Hirai in http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=87

Bold mine
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Old 04-30-2011, 10:21 AM   #30
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
"I was the Director of General Affairs of the Kobukan beginning around 1942 and I helped out Ueshiba Sensei in daily matters. "Aikido," rather than being a specifically selected name, was the term used to refer to "Butokukai-Ryu" aiki budo within the Dai Nippon Butokukai. The headquarters of the Dai Nippon Butokukai was located in Kyoto and Butokuden centers were set up in all prefectures. Tatsuo Hisatomi from the Kodokan, and Shohei Fujinuma from kendo, were close friends of mine. The Butokukai was an independent, umbrella organization for the martial arts, and it also was in charge of martial arts in the police departments.
...
In other words, the term "aikido" was a cover-all term that could include other things as well. Mr. Hisatomi's idea was to intentionally select a name that would not be opposed by kendo or other martial arts, but rather an inoffensive, comprehensive term to group together all of the yawara schools. In the end, no one opposed this proposal."


Minoru Hirai in http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=87

Bold mine
So we can say that the word "aikido" can encompass all martial arts....? sounds good to me....
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Old 04-30-2011, 10:24 AM   #31
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
Aikido didn't exist, pre-war, did it...?

As for the criticisms of the Aikikai, aren't the sources very important? - i.e., I have heard Chiba sensei - a man most respected by at least a few contributors here - once remarked that Tomiki sensei 'Missed the point' of aikido; and I think I recall anecdotes about Tadashi Abe which I read here, talking about him lamenting his missed opportunity to be a suicide bomber during WWII; carrying a knife with him - to give to other people when he got in a fight; and being expelled from France because he kept starting fights.

If that's pre-war aikido, I can't wait 'til it's well and truly dead.
Some would say that the majority of present day aikido is already dead......
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Old 04-30-2011, 03:53 PM   #32
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

And some would say Aikido is alive and well!
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Old 04-30-2011, 04:14 PM   #33
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
And some would say Aikido is alive and well!
As dance yes......
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Old 04-30-2011, 04:47 PM   #34
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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As dance yes......
And what did Yoshimitsu Minamoto base Daito-ryu on?

Best,

Chris

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Old 04-30-2011, 05:11 PM   #35
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
And what did Yoshimitsu Minamoto base Daito-ryu on?

Best,

Chris
Haha. As someone with even a cursory understanding of the history of aikido would know...
I was going to mention this, too.

As much as some aikido might have neglected martial intent for connection/softness, I think that is the heart of aikido, and makes aiki possible, and I think too many 'martial' people - including some present here - have no idea what aiki is, as they don't know what it is to be soft/not tense.

How can you be in harmony/yield when you have such an ego, and discord between yourself and others...?
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Old 04-30-2011, 05:41 PM   #36
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
And what did Yoshimitsu Minamoto base Daito-ryu on?
Really? I remember this concept being questioned by Ellis Amdur in Hidden in Plain Sight.

Here is an article on Aikidojournal that is in the same light - http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=2702

As Ellis states in the article:

Quote:
Tokimune then arrives at Shinra Saburo Minamoto no (Genji) Yoshimitsu, one of those culture heroes that appear in any country, an apparently universal man who is then claimed by numerous groups in future generations. Tokimune asserts, "This Yoshimitsu served in the Emperor's court and was said to have been a strong Sumo wrestler… . He was also an expert performer on the free-reed mouth organ and often played this instrument to traditional dances performed at the court. He realized that there was in the elegance and suppleness of these dance, certain formlessness without openings, which allowed numerous permutations. He made additions to the secret methods of the Genji tradition and formalized the secret techniques of Aiki."

The addition of the subtleties of court dance resembles the paradoxical myths in Chinese martial arts where one observes, for example, the stately movements of a crane, or the quick extensions of the arm of gibbons, and achieves an essential insight into a system of bodily organization. What he is suggesting here, however, is that this addition enabled Saigo Shinra to distill kuzushi into something even more subtle and refined, like brandy from wine. Without this addition, we would merely be talking about sumo, which permeated Japanese martial culture, and one could therefore claim this history for just about any jujutsu school.

Although this makes a quite dramatic metaphor, we have no evidence of this whatsoever, and if there is any resemblence between the enigmatic gagaku of 1000 years ago with Daito-ryu today, it is hidden deep within the esoteria of the school, certainly not something that has ever been presented publicly. (And by the way, before anyone gets excited about this idea, take a look and listen to gagaku - it is both musically and physically the most eerie, otherworldly music and dance, making Noh as accessible as the fox trot in comparison.

In essence, Takeda Tokimune seems to be superimposing a shadow history over the standard history of sumo and jujutsu, as if it exists like the white spaces between the letters on a page. He is, I believe, trying to make history conform to Daito-ryu, not the other way around. Nowhere is this "shoe-horning" more apparent than in the assertion that Yoshimitsu was called Saburo Daito, after living at the mansion of Daito in Oe. This may well be true, but Daito-ryu was not even called by that appellation until Yoshida Kotaro pointed out to Takeda Sokaku that the kanji for what he had then named Yamato-ryu were more properly read as Daito-ryu. The naming of the system seems to have had nothing to do with Shinra Saburo. I would wager that Mr. Takeda, attempting to research the origins of his father's art went as far back through his own family's history as he could (without leaving Japan itself), and finding Saburo Daito, an archetypal father of Japanese grappling, chose to believe that he had found a link.

Shinra Saburo was an ancestor of the Takeda clan, although with a thousand years of separation, he was probably the ancestor of most of the Japanese population, in one way or another. From this ur-father, Tokimune asserts that Daito-ryu continued to be passed down within the Imperial family through its Minamoto branch, and then into one offshoot, the Takeda clan
Emphasis above is mine.

Imho the Yoshimitsu Minamoto dance Aiki link is an interesting concept but where is the evidence to support it. Sometimes History is really just His Story

Regardless of whether Yoshimitsu Minamoto had an effect on what became S. Takeda's Daito Ryu, the evidence states that what Takeda did and taught as DRJJ was designed for combat or fighting. This is what Ueshiba M. learnt from him as well and is what he did up to the 1930's.

What happened later as "Aikido" is another story.

Just some thoughts.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 04-30-2011, 05:52 PM   #37
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
As much as some aikido might have neglected martial intent for connection/softness, I think that is the heart of aikido, and makes aiki possible, and I think too many 'martial' people - including some present here - have no idea what aiki is, as they don't know what it is to be soft/not tense.

How can you be in harmony/yield when you have such an ego, and discord between yourself and others...?
Funny you say that Graham.

From my experience, those who really know Aiki and can execute it do not exhibit the ego and discord that you are referring to. There is also no loss of connection or softness where needed.

So the question may be "what are you referring to as Aiki"? I was lucky to be part of some recent research that pretty much concludes that no more than a handful (meaning 5 or so) of Ueshiba M.'s earliest students were even taught anything about Aiki by him, and by the postwar period he simply did not teach it openly anymore, you had to steal it.

In Daito Ryu and by extension Ueshiba's Aikibudo and early Aikido, Aiki is considered a tactical combative concept embodied in the techniques. This existed long before the re-codification of the concept to match the popular post-WWII "Art of Love" slogan imho.

Just a few thoughts.

LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 04-30-2011 at 05:58 PM.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 04-30-2011, 06:06 PM   #38
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
Really? I remember this concept being questioned by Ellis Amdur in Hidden in Plain Sight.
Sure, I read the book, I'm even cited in the acknowledgements, although I'm not sure why...

I wonder if Morihei Ueshiba would denigrate dance - he taught many dancers, some of them quite well known.

Anyway, I think that you might be surprised how much faster dancers often pick up Aiki.

Best,

Chris

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Old 04-30-2011, 06:28 PM   #39
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Sure, I read the book, I'm even cited in the acknowledgements, although I'm not sure why...

I wonder if Morihei Ueshiba would denigrate dance - he taught many dancers, some of them quite well known.

Anyway, I think that you might be surprised how much faster dancers often pick up Aiki.
Well I don't think anyone here is denigrating dance Chris. I'm merely questioning the real facts behind the popular story.

I agree with you that dancers pick up Aiki faster. But imho this has more to do with the individual's coordination and understanding of how their mind and body operates so it does not only apply to dancers but gymnasts, judoka, ppl who do yoga and anyone who does a lot of choreography from my experience.

Just some thoughts.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
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Old 04-30-2011, 07:18 PM   #40
Chris Li
 
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
Well I don't think anyone here is denigrating dance Chris. I'm merely questioning the real facts behind the popular story.

I agree with you that dancers pick up Aiki faster. But imho this has more to do with the individual's coordination and understanding of how their mind and body operates so it does not only apply to dancers but gymnasts, judoka, ppl who do yoga and anyone who does a lot of choreography from my experience.

Just some thoughts.

LC
Oh, I wasn't talking about you . Anyway, myth or not, AFAIK Ueshiba believed the story.

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-01-2011, 09:25 AM   #41
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
Well I don't think anyone here is denigrating dance Chris. I'm merely questioning the real facts behind the popular story.

I agree with you that dancers pick up Aiki faster. But imho this has more to do with the individual's coordination and understanding of how their mind and body operates so it does not only apply to dancers but gymnasts, judoka, ppl who do yoga and anyone who does a lot of choreography from my experience.

Just some thoughts.

LC
I used to love dancing, still do if I get the opportunity... shake that booty and quiver man!!!!
Use it or lose it as the saying goes. I also think there is a certain amount of genetics involved to.... Some are more "blessed" than others I find.....
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Old 05-01-2011, 11:17 AM   #42
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
I used to love dancing, still do if I get the opportunity... shake that booty and quiver man!!!!
Use it or lose it as the saying goes. I also think there is a certain amount of genetics involved to.... Some are more "blessed" than others I find.....
Apparently Tomiki was quite interested in ballroom dancing - I met his instructor once. He also did randori to music.

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-01-2011, 01:44 PM   #43
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Apparently Tomiki was quite interested in ballroom dancing - I met his instructor once. He also did randori to music.

Best,

Chris
It develops good footwork and good coordination, with a partner who is harmonising but it's as far as it goes from a martial standpoint, when your partner becomes an assailant things change rapidly....
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Old 05-02-2011, 04:32 AM   #44
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Apparently Tomiki was quite interested in ballroom dancing - I met his instructor once. He also did randori to music.

Best,

Chris
What his instructor or Tomiki? What was it ? Housewife's choice? 1812 ? Or hip hop?
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Old 05-02-2011, 10:01 AM   #45
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

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Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
What his instructor or Tomiki? What was it ? Housewife's choice? 1812 ? Or hip hop?
Tomiki.

Chris

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Old 05-02-2011, 11:17 AM   #46
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

I made some real changes in the book HIPS from the AJ articles. One distinction concerns the passage you are citing re dance. The internal training elements from Chinese martial practices are all, broadly speaking, Shaolin-based. Please note that these can be of extremely high level, BUT the particular type of subtle technique/power attributed to Takeda, Ueshiba seems to be closer to that of xingyi, t'ai chi, etc.
One theory, of course, is that Takeda developed (reinvented the wheel) this on his own. Why not? Somebody(s) else did it before, or we wouldn't have the skills.
If it had been passed down, generation after generation before him, however, then there was a) some other unnamed genius b) the Japanese learned it from somewhere. Since there is this claim in the tradition regarding bugaku, [click link]I mentioned that this does deserve a harder look. NOT, of course, that in these stately movements is hidden a martial practice (like Morris dance )
However, look at the body control of this over 1000 year old style of dance, the opening-closing movements. Noh, a much later development of Japanese dance. Body control and a meticulous attention of methods of breathing is part of Noh practice.
To be sure, all of this seems very far from the aikido of Abe and Chiba, for two examples, or the rugged jujutsu of the Takumakai. However, I suggest in HIPS that it is possible, that a detailed study of the types of physical training in bugaku may reveal similarities to some of the training methods within DR.
In short, IF the skills of the top masters came from somewhere, rather than a creation of Takeda Sokaku, and it wasn't from Chinese martial arts imported in the 16th century, perhaps DR lore about dance may hold a clue.
Ellis Amdur

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Old 05-02-2011, 12:58 PM   #47
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Eddy Wolput wrote: View Post
In Tomiki Aikido, the old Ueshiba teachings are kept alive in what is called Koryu no kata, which is basically old prewar teachings from Ueshiba.
Also Iwama style has some original teachings.
In Minoru Mochizuki Yoseikan aikido you can find original prewar teachning........
Hello,

Can you please explain what are these "old Ueshiba teachings" that are present in these three styles (Iwama, Tomiki, Yoseikan) but not present (?) in other styles?
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Old 05-02-2011, 01:28 PM   #48
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Gerardo Torres wrote: View Post
Hello,

Can you please explain what are these "old Ueshiba teachings" that are present in these three styles (Iwama, Tomiki, Yoseikan) but not present (?) in other styles?
My slant on this is all to do with one's posture and how to achieve a strong posture which some refer to as centring. One can see this in dance as well as many other physical disciplines. It's not just MA that have this. It's funny to note that many dance forms actually evolved from martial action, so no great discovery there..... One has to be relaxed to achieve strong posture, the trick is to make it work under real pressure.....
I doubt that Tomiki Sensei had music to tanto randori in the dojo, or aikido practice perse, although he may have been adept at the ballroom stuff..... Maybe he liked listening to music while he worked?
Who doesn't...?
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Old 05-02-2011, 02:03 PM   #49
Chris Li
 
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
I doubt that Tomiki Sensei had music to tanto randori in the dojo, or aikido practice perse, although he may have been adept at the ballroom stuff..... Maybe he liked listening to music while he worked?
Who doesn't...?
He would do it a little like musical chairs. People would do randori to music and had to throw at the moment that the music stopped. Or so I was told by his ballroom dance instructor - who received a 6th dan directly from Tomiki.

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-02-2011, 08:39 PM   #50
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Tadashi Abe and Kenji Tomiki and their criticism

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
He would do it a little like musical chairs. People would do randori to music and had to throw at the moment that the music stopped. Or so I was told by his ballroom dance instructor - who received a 6th dan directly from Tomiki.

Best,

Chris
Has anyone else heard of this? I'll ask somebody I know when I get to see him..... He was a direct student of Tomiki and Ohba Sensei's so it would be interesting to hear it from him.....
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