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Old 04-29-2011, 02:36 PM   #26
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
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Re: Violence, etc.

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
He never does the particular kubi nage in Carsten's or Monty's video. If you refer to a specific clip in the DVD then I'll review it.
Technically you're correct. Founder's did the neck twisting/cervical vertebrae compromising one, not the safe kubinage 'lite' for kids/french people.

Ueshiba's kubinage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79PMWGtl0qM

at 0:56, 1:14, 5:57, 7:14 and 7:40

You can see with better detail in Saito videos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIJDj7rPDoM & http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhzV8W4BJNk at 1:30) because was a common technique at Iwama (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDTHwCG3Epc lots of kubinage from 4:20 onwards) under founder's direct supervision.

If you want more:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYmZPdSyqcQ
2:16, by founder himself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5FtreEFnvc
1:58, founder again.

Quote:
Yoda would never post a resistance-laden wrestling knife disarm video as a model to strive for.
Yoda is fictional. In real life ki blasts, even the asimptotic ones, against knife wielders have few uses.
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Old 04-29-2011, 03:12 PM   #27
mathewjgano
 
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Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
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Re: Violence, etc.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Technically you're correct. Founder's did the neck twisting/cervical vertebrae compromising one, not the safe kubinage 'lite' for kids/french people.
You've just insulted not only my inner child, but the remaining bit of French heritage I possess: enough talk, let's fight!

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Old 04-29-2011, 03:36 PM   #28
Tenyu
Dojo: Aikibodo
Location: Arcata CA
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Re: Violence, etc.

Demetrio,

Almost all of those examples you cited by O Sensei were a variation of irimi nage. The other ones were mild versions that didn't require a high fall. If you want to say O Sensei practiced kubi nage post-war, I'm fine with that. There are a lot more important forms, lost, new, and undiscovered that I'm concerned with.

O Sensei, nor I, would ever fight or resist as in your knife video example. Alternatives exist, whether you're aware of them or not.
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Old 04-29-2011, 04:03 PM   #29
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Violence, etc.

From the other thread:
Quote:
Jonathan wrote:
But, in aikido part of our process is to relinquish an ego-based point of view, so shouldn't the head just be considered another appendage? In other words any psychological issues with that throw reveal where progress needs to be made? Just a thought. Of course the safety is still my main concern.
Quote:
Tenyu wrote:
Not only does nage have no need to grab uke's head or neck, from a purely technical perspective it's the most inefficient and ineffective way to practice non-lethal Aikido.
Would you clarify what you meant here?

When I initially read it, I took your meaning to be that it's never good to throw people by the head/neck. Do you just mean never to drop them over your shoulder when doing it?
Take care,
Matt
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Old 04-29-2011, 05:37 PM   #30
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Violence, etc.

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
Demetrio,

Almost all of those examples you cited by O Sensei were a variation of irimi nage.
Yeah, irimi witouth entering and twisting the head...

Quote:
The other ones were mild versions that didn't require a high fall.
High falls are theatrics.

Quote:
If you want to say O Sensei practiced kubi nage post-war, I'm fine with that.
I proved he did.

Quote:
There are a lot more important forms, lost, new, and undiscovered that I'm concerned with
Aikido waza is infinite.

Quote:
O Sensei, nor I, would ever fight or resist as in your knife video example. Alternatives exist, whether you're aware of them or not
I pray for you not having to rely on your "alternatives" for real.
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Old 04-29-2011, 07:15 PM   #31
Tenyu
Dojo: Aikibodo
Location: Arcata CA
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Re: Violence, etc.

Matthew,

Atemi are necessary toward the trajectory of uke's head in many techniques and any full activation atemi is a complete throw in of itself, but there's no grabbing involved. There's no contact there either when working with a trained uke in a dojo. Obviously this discussion's specifically about grabbing but I wanted to qualify your wording "never good to throw by the head" since it can be misconstrued later on. Every technique is different. I don't grab people by their heads and I almost never grab by their necks in practice. In extended irimi nage I prefer to grab by the gi around the shoulder blade instead as it's naturally less disconnectable from uke's center than a rotatable neck. Location relative to uke's height/length, grabbing the neck is comparable to holding the staff closer to the end of the staff from the first harmonic, the quarter point. Applying non-resistant compressive power shorter than the first harmonic is extremely inefficient and I would never recommend it in any real non-lethal situation outside of a dojo.
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Old 04-29-2011, 07:22 PM   #32
Tenyu
Dojo: Aikibodo
Location: Arcata CA
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Re: Violence, etc.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I proved he did.
True.

Quote:
Aikido waza is infinite.
There are infinite techniques but there's only one way to do every technique. By continually experimenting at the limits of the potential, every new discovery can open another door to a previously unknown realm of potential. It's a direct study of Takemusu beyond what would ever be needed for purely martial interaction.

Quote:
I pray for you not having to rely on your "alternatives" for real.
I've been in hundreds of real life and death situations but I appreciate your concern.
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Old 04-29-2011, 07:30 PM   #33
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Violence, etc.

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
I've been in hundreds of real life and death situations but I appreciate your concern.
Hundreds? It seems people don't like you.
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Old 04-30-2011, 12:28 AM   #34
Tenyu
Dojo: Aikibodo
Location: Arcata CA
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Re: Violence, etc.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Hundreds? It seems people don't like you.
None of them were fights and none involved or endangered other people. I only put my own life on the line. There were some days I got a weird premonition I wouldn't make it so I didn't do it. I do know there's no room for fear, desire, or thought when perfection or near perfection is required to survive. I'm not going to say anything specific about it here. I was young and it was years before I had any formal martial arts training. Except my family, the people I've told were impressed with what I did, but it was actually pretty stupid to needlessly risk my life so much.
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