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Old 04-24-2011, 12:08 AM   #1
mathewjgano
 
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Violence, etc.

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
Monty and Matthew mentioned it's popular with ego-pandering WWF because it simulates and satiates a representation of lethal violence.
Please speak more carefully. I said it was akin to moves (pile-drivers) seen in WWF by a 10ish y/o (me) and I was speaking in terms of safety. I didn't like play-wrestling because it simulated "lethal violence." If anything I liked it less for any such attitudes. Furthermore, it was my awareness of such things that caused me to be more careful when dealing with people's gray-matter.

Quote:
O Sensei didn't randomly exclude kubinage from his training. There's no separation between nage and uke. Whatever disrespect nage gives uke, nage gives himself. Progress happens when violence or violent representations are no longer normalized or justified.
I wasn't specifically aware O Sensei purposefully removed kubinage from his training (though it would make sense), but we might have different takes on what constitutes violence.
Quote:
dictionary.com wrote:
1. swift and intense force: the violence of a storm.
2. rough or injurious physical force, action, or treatment
To me, practicing with any weapon at all, such as a long thin club, would represent simulated violence. Striving for high-powered strikes would be a furtheration of that goal, for what good does hitting with more power do, other than cause more damage upon impact? Seriously, what is a yokomen strike to the head if not violence simulated?

Quote:
Our society, our culture, our language is filled with violence...
I agree. And while I would agree things like WWF add to that to a significant degree, that doesn't make everything WWF-related responsible. Some of us are given instruction on the realities of violent actions, allowing us to be more mindful of it.
Take care,
Matt
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Old 04-24-2011, 12:00 PM   #2
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Re: Violence, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiuV2...el_video_title

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Cool!
...Also, love the music!
I don't think there's anything cool about kubinage or the WWF style music.

Quote:
To me, practicing with any weapon at all, such as a long thin club, would represent simulated violence. Striving for high-powered strikes would be a furtheration of that goal, for what good does hitting with more power do, other than cause more damage upon impact? Seriously, what is a yokomen strike to the head if not violence simulated?
In Aikibodo practice, there's never any intention of striking at someone. No image of a target exists, because doing so would immediately disintegrate into external technique. The whole purpose of striking with(not at) uke(staff) is to activate asymptotes, a direct connection with the infinite. The staff is primarily an instrument, not a weapon. The more energy nage can apply in the strike and hold at activation, the more nage becomes capable of interacting with uke absolutely non-violently with equal amounts of power. No person can move as fast or demandingly as a staff, so learning harmonic action at frequencies and amplitudes beyond what any human uke can produce is why the staff makes taijitsu relatively easy.

Quote:
that doesn't make everything WWF-related responsible
WWF isn't responsible for anything, it's only a symptom. I'm not advocating fighting cultural violence, because that's just another form of violence. The only solution is awareness and to provide healthy non-violent alternatives.
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Old 04-24-2011, 05:04 PM   #3
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Re: Violence, etc.

Hi Tenyu,
Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
I don't think there's anything cool about kubinage or the WWF style music.
I kinda gathered that. What I think is cool is (what I perceived to be) the cleanliness of procedure those kids employed. They didn't seem to be acting particularly rough. Of course I have no idea about the internal feeling they had, but they seemed fairly well focused. I think it's cool to see kids operating like that. They didn't have "mwahahahah! I just smashed you on your spine" looks like I've seen some kids practice with.

Quote:
In Aikibodo practice, there's never any intention of striking at someone. No image of a target exists,
Do you ever practice striking toward a person? Internally there may well be no violent intent, and from what little I know, I agree with the following:
Quote:
because doing so would immediately disintegrate into external technique.
but I would describe the physical actions themselves as somewhat violent. Probably just semantics though.

Quote:
The whole purpose of striking with(not at) uke(staff) is to activate asymptotes, a direct connection with the infinite.
Sure, and one possible purpose to war is peace. If you're ever striking toward someone, you can also be described as striking at them. And while the nuance implied by "with" holds a deeper connotation, one which conceptually joins uke and nage as a singular entity, this can still be applied negatively no? Self-destructive people abound, and they're often more than happy to take loved ones down with themselves.

Quote:
The staff is primarily an instrument, not a weapon.
In your case, "primarily" perhaps, but it is still a weapon. A gun can also be primarily a paper-weight.

Quote:
The more energy nage can apply in the strike and hold at activation, the more nage becomes capable of interacting with uke absolutely non-violently with equal amounts of power.
I like that, but again, our definition of violence seems to be different. What I would describe as a low degree of violence, you seem to call non-violence. Admittedly I have not seen any examples of your training other than kata though.

Quote:
WWF isn't responsible for anything, it's only a symptom. I'm not advocating fighting cultural violence, because that's just another form of violence. The only solution is awareness and to provide healthy non-violent alternatives.
Symptoms can be, and often are, causes too. The point I'm making is that it depends on the individual internal character(istics), not the external, and that I don't believe we can guess that from a video. My main complaint is the poor description you gave of my comments. I believe you mischaracterized exactly what I commented on, though to be fair, I probably didn't explain my meaning very well. I was intending to be supportive of two young dudes' training...to be operating "with" and not "at" them. In my opinion you seem to be using language that is more "at" than "with." I recognize I may be misperceiving the situation. Do you recognize any such similar possibility (regarding yourself, of course)?
Take care, and thank you for the thoughtful reply,
Matthew

Last edited by mathewjgano : 04-24-2011 at 05:12 PM.
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Old 04-24-2011, 10:00 PM   #4
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Re: Violence, etc.

There's no striking at or toward anything or anyone either real or imaginary except an asymptote which defies all images. I've explained in previous threads the staff is the uke. I can use an uke(staff) to hit another uke(person) but there's no reason to practice it. On film O Sensei did strike with the staff(uke) at a protected tree(uke) but it was low frequency and amplitude, another time during randori he placed one uke(person) in the committed path of another uke(person) for light collision between the two. In both examples the first and second uke were never in any harm. Power and energy applied harmonically are totally non-violent. It does take a lot of intense training though before one can consistently use high levels of energy in the context of non-violent Aikido, something which is best achieved with the staff instrument as proven by O Sensei's own practice.

Your statement the staff is "still a weapon" implies violence is an inherent quality of the staff but that's completely false. A musician could use a saxophone much more violently as a weapon than an instrument, but the sax isn't inherently violent. Even a gun can be used primarily as means of humanely slaughtering animals for food which I consider non-violent when done compassionately. Obviously the boys in the video aren't being violent, even while simulating uke-centric hiza geri and a couple head lock transitions, but there's no reason to practice kubinage. It involves higher levels of collusion and there's no lack of alternative techniques in non-lethal Aikido that are more effective, efficient, and safer. Your head and neck deserve special treatment.

I've been direct with my words because I find it unbelievable that I have to explain why kobudo-ish WWF techniques don't belong in Aikido practice on an Aikido forum.
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Old 04-24-2011, 10:35 PM   #5
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Re: Violence, etc.

Hi Tenyu,
Some interesting food for thought. Thank you.
Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
Your statement the staff is "still a weapon" implies violence is an inherent quality of the staff but that's completely false. A musician could use a saxophone much more violently as a weapon than an instrument, but the sax isn't inherently violent. Even a gun can be used primarily as means of humanely slaughtering animals for food which I consider non-violent when done compassionately.
I didn't intend to imply a weapon is necessarily (inherently) violent (a gun really can just be a paper-weight). I was speaking to the idea (or trying to) that it depends on the person wielding it coupled with his or her quality of interaction. I still maintain slaughtering an animal, no matter the degree of compassion, is violent.
Quote:
I've been direct with my words because I find it unbelievable that I have to explain why kobudo-ish WWF techniques don't belong in Aikido practice on an Aikido forum.
And you're certainly entitled to that opinion. I have come to view "Aikido practice" as something broader, which esentially includes the older, harsher forms. Through the course of Aikido's development, though each phase is somewhat different from the others (in a variety of ways), all can be described as "Aikido." I prefer the kinder gentler ideal, but I accept other versions as being Aikido just as I accept the 19 y/o in the mirror was "Matthew Gano" and the 30 y/o was also "Matthew Gano."
Thank you again!
Take care,
Matthew
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Old 04-24-2011, 11:21 PM   #6
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Re: Violence, etc.

To me all violence is unhealthy. Being connected to how your food got on your plate is healthy.

I know from my own experience O Sensei didn't consider what he did pre-war Aikido.
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Old 04-25-2011, 12:42 PM   #7
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Re: Violence, etc.

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
To me all violence is unhealthy. Being connected to how your food got on your plate is healthy.
So where's the disconnect? You're connected with how your food got on your plate, and that's healthy, but it got there through a violent act, and that's not healthy? Is it that the act of slaughtering is violent, but since you didn't actually do the slaughtering, it's got nothing to do with you?
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Old 04-25-2011, 01:14 PM   #8
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Re: Violence, etc.

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
I know from my own experience O Sensei didn't consider what he did pre-war Aikido.
Ok, I'll bite; were you alive before O Sensei's death?

What do you really mean?

David Henderson
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Old 04-27-2011, 06:32 AM   #9
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Violence, etc.

I tried to understand the issue of this thread, but I think I didn't get it. I would appreciate some help.

Unfortunately I can't view the linked video because it "contains a false video ID" (?)

We do kubi nage approximately this way.
Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
I don't think there's anything cool about kubinage...
Why can kubi nage be a "problem"? It can be thrown very soft, is not dangerous when the hands are placed in the neck of uke and not at his head. And it is more easy to fall then shiho nage or maybe irimi nage.
We teach kubi nage on a regular base and I wonder what could be "wrong" with this technique?

Quote:
In Aikibodo practice, there's never any intention of striking at someone. No image of a target exists, ...
I think you mean aikido?
But I don't understand what do you mean with "never any intention of striking at someone"? Isn't doing atemi exactly this: Intention of striking at someone? Isn't that the meaning of the japanese word ate mi?
Also: Don't we have a clear intention of how to strike when practicing atemi? And don't you have a clear image of a certain target, means where to hit the opponent?

[QUOTE... ]doing so would immediately disintegrate into external technique. [/quote]What do you mean by "external technique"? And who or what is disintegrating?
I am very sorry but I am unfamiliar with this words relating to aikdo.

The whole purpose of striking with(not at) uke(staff) is to activate asymptotes, a direct connection with the infinite. The staff is primarily an instrument, not a weapon. The more energy nage can apply in the strike and hold at activation, the more nage becomes capable of interacting with uke absolutely non-violently with equal amounts of power. No person can move as fast or demandingly as a staff, so learning harmonic action at frequencies and amplitudes beyond what any human uke can produce is why the staff makes taijitsu relatively easy.

WWF isn't responsible for anything, it's only a symptom. I'm not advocating fighting cultural violence, because that's just another form of violence. The only solution is awareness and to provide healthy non-violent alternatives.[/quote]
Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
I've explained in previous threads the staff is the uke.
In our aikido the jo, the ken, the tanto are understood as part of oneself. They become a part of ones own body. And they are understood and used like the tegatana or the fist. They just prolong ones body.
And one of the aims of tori is to become one with ones weapon.
So how can a staff be uke?

What do I get wrong?

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
To me all violence is unhealthy. Being connected to how your food got on your plate is healthy.
So you are vegetarian or living vegan?
I am sorry: I don't understand.

I don't see how aikido can be practiced without dealing with certain aspects of violance. Controlling someones body and mind and not let him do what he wants to, is violance in my eyes.

I don't think Ueshiba Morihei sortet kubi nage out. There is no such hint to think so? On the contrary it is practiced in many dojo of different styles as far as I know.

Quote:
O Sensei didn't consider what he did pre-war Aikido.
O Sensei didn't consider what he did post-war aikido. It was Hirai Minoru who found this name.
What do we know about him? Do we know or are we just thinking to know ...?
Do we practice what O Sensei teaches us? Or do we practice what our teachers teach us?
...
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Old 04-27-2011, 12:27 PM   #10
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Re: Violence, etc.

Hi Carsten,
This is the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiuV2...el_video_title

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Why can kubi nage be a "problem"? It can be thrown very soft, is not dangerous when the hands are placed in the neck of uke and not at his head. And it is more easy to fall then shiho nage or maybe irimi nage.
We teach kubi nage on a regular base and I wonder what could be "wrong" with this technique?
Of course he can answer better than I, but my understanding is that he doesn't feel it's in keeping with the spirit of Aikido as O Sensei taught it (post-war), and that it necessarily creates (or too-easily creates) negative ego.
"Aikibodo" is what Tenyu calls his style of Aikido. If you look in this thread (a long one), you might get an idea of what he's talking about: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...light=aikibodo

Quote:
What do you mean by "external technique"? And who or what is disintegrating?
If I understand correctly, it's like focusing too much on circumstantial factors instead of developing strong internal cohesion, but hopefully he will fill in anything I'm leaving out. My understanding of this concept might be different than his.

Quote:
In our aikido the jo, the ken, the tanto are understood as part of oneself. They become a part of ones own body.
As does uke. I think he distinguishes anything as receiving ki/etc. as being uke, hence he described the potential for using uke/staff upon uke/attacker.

Quote:
So you are vegetarian or living vegan?
I am sorry: I don't understand.
This is where I definately don't understand the logical flow of his meaning. I think he is making the case that compassion can somehow remove violence, but I disagree. I think it mitigates violence, but that violence is still present.
Hopefully Tenyu will explain his meaning more, but this is my take on it so far.
Take care,
Matt
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Old 04-27-2011, 01:57 PM   #11
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Re: Violence, etc.

Carsten,

After the initial reception in extended irimi nage and shiho nage, uke's arms are facing away from nage whereas in the kubi nage in your linked video the arms are facing toward nage prior to the throw. In honest practice or freestyle all of uke is alive, any technique that requires ‘dead' limbs crosses a level of cooperation that I consider counterproductive.

Aikibodo is a development of Aikido. I've already explained the use of atemi and gave an introductory definition of Internal, have you read my previous posts? Your concept of instruments(‘weapons') doesn't conflict with mine. There's no separation between nage and uke, be it the staff or a person. The principles of the interaction of energy are exactly the same. Being so small, a tanto's implicit demands are significantly less delimited compared to jo or bokken. In that sense, learning to wield a tanto won't really inform taijitsu the way jo and bokken do.

I'm sure O Sensei learned kubi nage from Takeda or elsewhere, its absence in his post-war practice wasn't a deficiency.

I eat humanely raised meat and wild fish. Industrial meat and farm-raised fish are tortured, diseased, and toxic. I am abstaining from all local grass-fed meat and dairy for the next year though because they're currently bioaccumulating cesium and strontium which have 30 year half-lives. I don't slaughter or hunt myself, but I want to in the future. Animals are an essential part of a healthy polyculture permaculture.
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Old 04-27-2011, 06:39 PM   #12
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Re: Violence, etc.

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
...
I'm sure O Sensei learned kubi nage from Takeda or elsewhere, its absence in his post-war practice wasn't a deficiency.

....
Most of the kubi nage I've seen demonstrated, a fair amount, has been by Shingu style instructors. About as post-war style of aikido as you can get I believe.

Mark
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Old 04-27-2011, 08:01 PM   #13
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Re: Violence, etc.

I wasn't aware it was practiced in Shingu or by Americans who trained there. O Sensei never created a formal curriculum, he wasn't strict about what was taught around the country, and he rarely corrected his students. Add in a million practitioners today and now everything's been called Aikido.
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Old 04-28-2011, 06:24 AM   #14
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Re: Violence, etc.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Thank you very much!

But again: Can't watch it. Now for reason of the violation of copyrights ...
Maybe this is not for me ... ;-)

Quote:
Of course he can answer better than I, but my understanding is that he doesn't feel it's in keeping with the spirit of Aikido as O Sensei taught it (post-war), ...
Well ok. But I think the kubi nage which I am used to, only may look dangerous or brutal. But is very soft and secure, when practiced. Less dangerous than shihon nage or irimi nage. (At least the way I know these techniques.)

And it was transmitted by students of o sensei just like other techniques.

So I don't see, why just this certain technique shouldn't keep Ueshibas spirit but other techniques do?

Quote:
and that it necessarily creates (or too-easily creates) negative ego.
Again: This is hard to comprehend in my eyes.
Kubi nage - the way I know it and have posted a link - can be executed like a massage. Very soft and gentle guiding uke down.
Doesn't a potentielly wrist breaking kote gashi, a shiho nage which may dislocate the shoulder or injure the ellbow, a im rimi nage which affects then neck ... potentially create negative ego in the same way?

I don't understand, why kubi nage stands out here? aikido is a martial art. Be it practiced pre or post WWII. And neither did it's martial potential change nor where there certain techniques more martial or dangerous then others, I think?
(Even ikkyo could and can be done in a way that uke touches the ground first with his face, then with his body. Which doesn't only affects his face, but also his neck. That we don't do this during practice doesn't mean it istn't here?)

Quote:
"Aikibodo" is what Tenyu calls his style of Aikido. If you look in this thread (a long one), you might get an idea of what he's talking about: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...light=aikibodo
And thank you for this link: I didn't read this thread because I didn't think it to meet my personal interests.

But I read some of it know.

Thank you for your explanations!
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Old 04-28-2011, 07:00 AM   #15
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Re: Violence, etc.

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
... in the kubi nage in your linked video the arms are facing toward nage prior to the throw.[
Well, kubi nage can be done from a lot different settings. I linked this video just to explain what I talk about. So kubi nage doesn't require "dead limbs".
(Besides that: The aikido I know, doesn't need to "have" an arm or hand of the attacker, but has some possibilities to act directly to the torso itself.)

Quote:
Aikibodo is a development of Aikido. I've already explained the use of atemi and gave an introductory definition of Internal, have you read my previous posts?
As I said, no I didn't. But now I went over this thread and read your postings.
I have a clearer image now, thank you.

Quote:
I'm sure O Sensei learned kubi nage from Takeda or elsewhere, ...
Isn't this true for everything, he transmitted?

Quote:
... I don't slaughter or hunt myself, but I want to in the future. ...
I did. And I eat meat. If one wants to eat meat, one has to accept, to kill. Just that. Call it violance or not, you have to take a life.
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Old 04-28-2011, 07:43 AM   #16
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Re: Violence, etc.

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
I eat humanely raised meat and wild fish. Industrial meat and farm-raised fish are tortured, diseased, and toxic. I am abstaining from all local grass-fed meat and dairy for the next year though because they're currently bioaccumulating cesium and strontium which have 30 year half-lives.
In Arcata CA?
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Old 04-28-2011, 11:39 AM   #17
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Re: Violence, etc.

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Thank you very much!

But again: Can't watch it. Now for reason of the violation of copyrights ...
Maybe this is not for me ... ;-)
Must not be! Interesting...well, it's of two kids practicing kubinage from the "neat ways to set up kubinage" thread.

I think we agree on this Carsten. I can see how it could be more dangerous than other techniques, but on the whole I think the spirit with which one practices any technique depends on the individual. I also think there is always a degree of violence to a technique, particularly when not done very very slowly. I look at the more dangerous techniques as opportunities to develop greater concern and awareness for our partners. I think there's probably a limit to this idea, but kubinage doesn't strike me as necessarily bad for this. Of course, I'm fairly unpracticed at Aikido, so I recognize my ignorance is rather large.
My sense of many techniques is similar to yours in that they can be very much like massage.
Take care!
Matt
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Old 04-28-2011, 12:08 PM   #18
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Re: Violence, etc.

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Isn't this true for everything, he transmitted?
No, he really was Aikido's founder. He did and didn't transmit a lot of things he created on his own.
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Old 04-28-2011, 12:11 PM   #19
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Re: Violence, etc.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I also think there is always a degree of violence to a technique, particularly when not done very very slowly.
If you think this way, you'll never learn Aikido.
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Old 04-28-2011, 12:53 PM   #20
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Re: Violence, etc.

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
If you think this way, you'll never learn Aikido.
For all I know that may well be. Today I don't know Aikido; tomorrow, who knows...
Take care,
Matt
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Old 04-29-2011, 03:08 AM   #21
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Re: Violence, etc.

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
If you think this way, you'll never learn Aikido.
For me sayings like this one are very unpleasant to read.

Having now read your postings here and - what is more - in the "New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff"-thread I think you are not in the slightest qualified to make such statement.

To me you seem to be a beginner who is just dreaming. And who has to learn a lot about aikido. And a lot about the jo and the bo.
There are a lot of hints and evidencess in your texts which show clearly that you lack a whole lot of knowledge, of experience - and modesty.

Find a teacher. And stay with him.

(Btw: Here in Germany the mere facts of the peak oil theorie are taught at school to every kid for more than 30 years now - this is the time I can judge. Everyone can draw his own poltical, social, personal consequenses.)

Last edited by Carsten Möllering : 04-29-2011 at 03:11 AM.
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Old 04-29-2011, 06:37 AM   #22
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Violence, etc.

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
I'm sure O Sensei learned kubi nage from Takeda or elsewhere, its absence in his post-war practice wasn't a deficiency.
Get a copy of Takemusu Aiki DVD, watch it and then tell me there's no kubinage in O Sensei's post-war aikido.

[Yoda mode]Less fortune cookie philosophizing and more training you need, young padawan.[/Yoda mode]
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Old 04-29-2011, 11:55 AM   #23
Tenyu
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Re: Violence, etc.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Get a copy of Takemusu Aiki DVD, watch it and then tell me there's no kubinage in O Sensei's post-war aikido.

[Yoda mode]Less fortune cookie philosophizing and more training you need, young padawan.[/Yoda mode]
The transcription I posted of O Sensei's staffwork comes from that DVD. He never does the particular kubi nage in Carsten's or Monty's video. If you refer to a specific clip in the DVD then I'll review it.

Yoda would never post a resistance-laden wrestling knife disarm video as a model to strive for.
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Old 04-29-2011, 11:59 AM   #24
Tenyu
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Re: Violence, etc.

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
For me sayings like this one are very unpleasant to read.
I've been going back and forth with Matthew in various threads, I wouldn't be this direct with him if I didn't think he could handle it.
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Old 04-29-2011, 02:24 PM   #25
mathewjgano
 
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Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
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Re: Violence, etc.

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
I've been going back and forth with Matthew in various threads, I wouldn't be this direct with him if I didn't think he could handle it.
I definately don't mind a direct and honest opinion...if anything I tend to even appreciate them.
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