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Old 04-28-2011, 06:50 AM   #101
chillzATL
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Not my meaning. I meant the stuff where he waved at them and they fell down. It stands to reason he retained some power in his old age. Takeda was in his 70's when he did that angry demo at the budokan. Sagawa did a limited freestyle exchange with two olympic judo guys. There are plenty of guys in the Chinese arts that can deliver power in their old age.
I have no interest in arm waving no touch stuff though, it discredits everything good.
Just say'n
Dan
I can't argue with that, but I give the old guy a pass. Who knows what his motivations were, maybe in his mind it was all the same? Maybe he was just having fun at everyones expense? He can still be seen flexing his "muscle" in even his final two recordings so he obviously didn't think it was all purple smoke.
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Old 04-28-2011, 07:26 AM   #102
Cliff Judge
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
The phrase Aiki in the body, as a thing in itself, implies Aiki can ever be independent or separate from uke.
Seriously? If I eat a grilled sanma, I have sanma in my body, completely 100% separate and independent from an uke. Unless I ate my uke also. Or...unless the sanma is my uke!

So you are saying that AIKI IS UKE! I get it! Cannibalism is the key to internal power!
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Old 04-28-2011, 08:09 AM   #103
stan baker
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

there is a difference between building aiki in the body and applied aiki
most of aikido is applied aiki without the foundation. Even the best shihans of O'Sensei had only bits and pieces of the foundational training.

stan
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Old 04-28-2011, 08:21 AM   #104
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

I think Ueshiba had great ability in his prime, but with everyone as they age is going to realise some decline in ones "powers" whether internal or not.... as for the arm waving episode I think he was probably having a giggle at our expense or he had become a tad bit delusional himself?
The other explanation is the "respect" given him from his uchi deshi that they respected his past ability and wisdom.....
To go in a destroy an old man wouldn't have been that pertinent or socially acceptable given his advanced age? For crying out loud when are people going to realise that? It really beggars belief....
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Old 04-28-2011, 09:46 AM   #105
SeiserL
 
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Takeda, Ueshiba, Sagawa, Mochizuki.....all prided themselves on MMA. Were they alive..they would be more current than most everyone. They would pursue modern combatives...and still have IP/ aiki.
Yes agreed.

From what I know, they loved to cross train.

If they were alive today they would have a study in every style that would come back and teach them.

IMHO, it wasn't the style but the type of men they were that makes the difference.

Perhaps because we are different types of people, we are not doing the same Aikido?

Thoughts?

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 04-28-2011, 09:52 AM   #106
Shany
 
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
Yes agreed.

From what I know, they loved to cross train.

If they were alive today they would have a study in every style that would come back and teach them.

IMHO, it wasn't the style but the type of men they were that makes the difference.

Perhaps because we are different types of people, we are not doing the same Aikido?

Thoughts?
It's not the car, it's the driver

A good stance and posture reflects a proper state of mind
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Old 04-28-2011, 09:55 AM   #107
Shany
 
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

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Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
I think Ueshiba had great ability in his prime, but with everyone as they age is going to realise some decline in ones "powers" whether internal or not.... as for the arm waving episode I think he was probably having a giggle at our expense or he had become a tad bit delusional himself?
The other explanation is the "respect" given him from his uchi deshi that they respected his past ability and wisdom.....
To go in a destroy an old man wouldn't have been that pertinent or socially acceptable given his advanced age? For crying out loud when are people going to realise that? It really beggars belief....
Ueshiba did believe in his later years in his internet KI rather than physical driven KI, hench his practice with 'waving hands' over people's head.
Of course, the only way to truly know if he did 'shoot out' any KI is by asking his Ukes (Some may still live!)

A good stance and posture reflects a proper state of mind
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Old 04-28-2011, 10:00 AM   #108
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Shany Golan wrote: View Post
Of course, the only way to truly know if he did 'shoot out' any KI is by asking his Ukes (Some may still live!)
For instance:

Speaking from experience, I can relate my feelings about being an uchideshi and uke to the Founder, Morihei Ueshiba. Perhaps only those students who actually practiced with the Founder will truly understand my feelings. As full-time students of the Founder, our respect for him was of course paramount. Especially towards the end of his life, if the Founder asked his students to "push against him as hard as they could", there was not one student among us who could do that. It was not that we were not able to physically push him, it was that we couldn't.

At the age of eighty-six, the Founder commanded so much respect for his life and accomplishments, that no student of any rank, even 7th or 8th dan, were able to breach this level of respect. Beyond the obvious differences in rank and experience, I feel this was part of the true "Ki" power the Founder possessed. It is understandable when looking at old photos of the Founder resisting the efforts of ten students pushing on his body to think it looks like magic. As one who was there, his power was derived from his presence, not from magic. At the height of his physical prowess, I have no doubt that he used technique to keep students from overpowering him. I attribute his powers at the age of 86 to real "Sensei power", the personal power he possessed after a life time of hardships and accomplishments. Not only in the world of Martial arts, leaders world --wide who have reached this level command this type of respect from those around them.


http://www.nippon-kan.org/abroad/sco..._scotland.html

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Old 04-28-2011, 10:19 AM   #109
JO
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

I think we should not underestimate the physical power O-sensei still had later in life. Here's a perspective from Kanai sensei:

for full interview : http://www.neaikikai.com/do_k_interview1.htm

Interview questio : From seeing films and videos, people talk about O Sensei practicing differently at various stages of his life. Is one stage more important than another, or do you take in the 'whole' concept and sometimes practice 'hard' and sometimes practice 'soft'?

Kanai: I never knew O Sensei since the young times. But O Sensei said young people (train) 'hard'. (They) need to do that daily, (they) need to hold 'tight', to make sure (if) the technique works or not...that is what O Sensei told me, told us. But when I met O Sensei (he) was old, his technique was very soft. There is a problem (with that)...people think that's 'soft' (and) that's 'easy'. People think that. (Thinking) that way, those people don't know what O Sensei was doing...because I never felt O Sensei (as) 'soft' or 'weak'...always strong. (He would) bounce me off (the mat) when I took ukemi. People don't know that. Those (uninformed) people (are) bringing Aikido down, (they are) destroying it.

Jonathan Olson
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Old 04-28-2011, 10:35 AM   #110
abraxis
 
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Jonathan Olson wrote: View Post
I think we should not underestimate the physical power O-sensei still had later in life. Here's a perspective from Kanai sensei:

for full interview : http://www.neaikikai.com/do_k_interview1.htm

Interview questio : From seeing films and videos, people talk about O Sensei practicing differently at various stages of his life. Is one stage more important than another, or do you take in the 'whole' concept and sometimes practice 'hard' and sometimes practice 'soft'?

Kanai: I never knew O Sensei since the young times. But O Sensei said young people (train) 'hard'. (They) need to do that daily, (they) need to hold 'tight', to make sure (if) the technique works or not...that is what O Sensei told me, told us. But when I met O Sensei (he) was old, his technique was very soft. There is a problem (with that)...people think that's 'soft' (and) that's 'easy'. People think that. (Thinking) that way, those people don't know what O Sensei was doing...because I never felt O Sensei (as) 'soft' or 'weak'...always strong. (He would) bounce me off (the mat) when I took ukemi. People don't know that. Those (uninformed) people (are) bringing Aikido down, (they are) destroying it.
Hello Jonathan,

I studied very briefly with Kanai Sensei back in '76 and can almost hear him speaking the words quoted in the interview. I deeply appreciate your post.

Sincerest thanks,

Rudy
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Old 04-28-2011, 02:49 PM   #111
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
Yes agreed.

From what I know, they loved to cross train.

If they were alive today they would have a study in every style that would come back and teach them.

IMHO, it wasn't the style but the type of men they were that makes the difference.

Perhaps because we are different types of people, we are not doing the same Aikido?

Thoughts?
The same.....
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Old 04-28-2011, 07:21 PM   #112
stan baker
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

it is the lack of understanding of spiraling energy and internal center
that is the main reason present day aikido is not at the same standard
of old.

stan
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Old 04-28-2011, 08:58 PM   #113
graham christian
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Stan Baker wrote: View Post
it is the lack of understanding of spiraling energy and internal center
that is the main reason present day aikido is not at the same standard
of old.

stan
Hi Stan.
True. Those type of things are dismissed by many as with other aspects whichO'Sensei could do yet others couldn't understand.

Take the word soft or non-resistance or love or spirit or essence or concept of spirit of loving protection etc.etc. How many Aikidoka actually know and can demonstrate in action these principles?

When I came into Aikidothere apparently was a rift going on in the Aikido scene. Back then my teacher explained it simply as those who wanted to carry on emphasizing and practicing with non-resistance, Ki etc. and those who weren't interested in that but were interested in the 'old school samurai' way as he put it.

It's actually down to people not understanding and many not wanting to understand for they can't 'logically' see the relationship.

Just take the word softness. Every single person in various martial arts and unfortunately this one who I have met who has told me that soft doesn't work etc. hadn't got a clue what it
actually meant. They have many explanations and stories and ridicules of it but cannot do it and by demonstration cannot 'defeat' or stop it.

Thus we get beliefs that its about shooting Ki and Ki balls and nonsense. Ridicule from those who cannot do or understand.

When a person is 'completely' relaxed and do something with 'softness' this is how it is to them the doer. Yet the person who receives comes out with statements like 'what the hell was that it felt like you hit me with a hammer' or 'that put me through the mat' or 'I felt like I ran into a brick wall'

These things are hard to understand for both parties for the person who did it feels like he did nothing and yet the person who received it knows he has been completely 'defeated'. Both new, easily disbelieved yet amazing experiences. They don't fit into the persons 'logical' reasoning.

Now when someone can do this anywhere, anytime, with anyone, (like O'Sensei could) it's just as confusing to the recipient for he usually cannot see how the teachers explanation fits those words. He cannot see how soft can mean something else or indeed that it's true meaning is almost the compleat opposite of what he believes, be he an uchideshi or beginner.

Thus it's dicussed for years.

Each concept when finally understood is more like a realization. Whether it be non-resistance or budo is love.

There is no secret technique or bad O'Sensei teaching, there is only a failure to duplicate those type of principles he repeatedly told everyone he employed.

I used to put down and ridicule those who used computers and joke about them as geeks etc. Once again just my ignorance at play and yet in reality those I ridiculed were just silently laughing at me.

No difference really to the current Aikido scene in many parts.

It's all good.G
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Old 04-28-2011, 08:59 PM   #114
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Hi Tony -

What isn't stated is that the Aikido mountain we're all lumbering up along our unique paths has no top. Myself, I prefer the long and winding road, I'm lovin' the scenery and the journey. I'm in no hurry to see it end.

Best,

Ron
Nor am I, a bit like the last dying breath and then suddenly saying Oooooh I think I've got it aaaaahhh!!! Expire.........
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Old 04-28-2011, 09:04 PM   #115
graham christian
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Stan Baker wrote: View Post
it is the lack of understanding of spiraling energy and internal center
that is the main reason present day aikido is not at the same standard
of old.

stan
Hi Stan.
True. Those type of things are dismissed by many as with other aspects whichO'Sensei could do yet others couldn't understand.

Take the word soft or non-resistance or love or spirit or essence or concept of spirit of loving protection etc.etc. How many Aikidoka actually know and can demonstrate in action these principles?

When I came into Aikidothere apparently was a rift going on in the Aikido scene. Back then my teacher explained it simply as those who wanted to carry on emphasizing and practicing with non-resistance, Ki etc. and those who weren't interested in that but were interested in the 'old school samurai' way as he put it.

It's actually down to people not understanding and many not wanting to understand for they can't 'logically' see the relationship.

Just take the word softness. Every single person in various martial arts and unfortunately this one who I have met who has told me that soft doesn't work etc. hadn't got a clue what it
actually meant. They have many explanations and stories and ridicules of it but cannot do it and by demonstration cannot 'defeat' or stop it.

Thus we get beliefs that its about shooting Ki and Ki balls and nonsense. Ridicule from those who cannot do or understand.

When a person is 'completely' relaxed and do something with 'softness' this is how it is to them the doer. Yet the person who receives comes out with statements like 'what the hell was that it felt like you hit me with a hammer' or 'that put me through the mat' or 'I felt like I ran into a brick wall'

These things are hard to understand for both parties for the person who did it feels like he did nothing and yet the person who received it knows he has been completely 'defeated'. Both new, easily disbelieved yet amazing experiences. They don't fit into the persons 'logical' reasoning.

Now when someone can do this anywhere, anytime, with anyone, (like O'Sensei could) it's just as confusing to the recipient for he usually cannot see how the teachers explanation fits those words. He cannot see how soft can mean something else or indeed that it's true meaning is almost the compleat opposite of what he believes, be he an uchideshi or beginner.

Thus it's dicussed for years.

Each concept when finally understood is more like a realization. Whether it be non-resistance or budo is love.

There is no secret technique or bad O'Sensei teaching, there is only a failure to duplicate those type of principles he repeatedly told everyone he employed.

I used to put down and ridicule those who used computers and joke about them as geeks etc. Once again just my ignorance at play and yet in reality those I ridiculed were just silently laughing at me.

No difference really to the current Aikido scene in many parts.

It's all good.G
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Old 04-28-2011, 10:03 PM   #116
stan baker
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Hi Graham

I am actually talking about something else.

stan
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Old 04-29-2011, 08:07 AM   #117
Cliff Judge
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Nor am I, a bit like the last dying breath and then suddenly saying Oooooh I think I've got it aaaaahhh!!! Expire.........
Your last dying breath doesn't come out of your mouth, mate.
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Old 04-29-2011, 08:28 AM   #118
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Your last dying breath doesn't come out of your mouth, mate.
I know, just having a silly joke, it comes out of the other office doesn't it?
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Old 04-29-2011, 01:03 PM   #119
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Right away from the nonsense for a mo...

Looks just like 'O' Sensei.... is this his Nephew? I get mixed up with the names....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WpJZ...feature=digest
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Old 04-29-2011, 01:46 PM   #120
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

I think he is.

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Old 04-29-2011, 02:00 PM   #121
Hellis
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Right away from the nonsense for a mo...

Looks just like 'O' Sensei.... is this his Nephew? I get mixed up with the names....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WpJZ...feature=digest
HHHHHhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
He looks familiar ??
First one with the correct answer wins a magic lamp

Henry Ellis
Aikido Controversy
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/
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Old 04-29-2011, 02:39 PM   #122
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
HHHHHhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
He looks familiar ??
First one with the correct answer wins a magic lamp

Henry Ellis
Aikido Controversy
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/
It's me Sensei..... its me!!........ Noddy?
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Old 04-29-2011, 02:46 PM   #123
Hellis
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
It's me Sensei..... its me!!........ Noddy?
Tony

NO - NO, it is not you, sorry you don't win the big prize - you can have a 8th dan or Shihan title as a booby prize ?

Henry Ellis
Aikido- Books
http://aikido-books.blogspot.com/
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Old 04-29-2011, 08:45 PM   #124
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Tony

NO - NO, it is not you, sorry you don't win the big prize - you can have a 8th dan or Shihan title as a booby prize ?

Henry Ellis
Aikido- Books
http://aikido-books.blogspot.com/
Aaaaaw Sensei Not even the magic pants?
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Old 04-30-2011, 11:59 AM   #125
carina reinhardt
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido
Are shotokan karatekas really doing Funakoshis karate?
Are judokas really doing Kanos Judo.
Are we speaking the same english like 100 years ago?
Or the same japanese? I just read a funny story in the interesting E-book Write for Tohoku,"Lost in translation with Roberta Flack" by Heather Dune, it is about Misaki, grown up in Hawaii having learned the japanese from her grandmother. She asked in japanese for the toilet in a department store in Tokyo and all the sales women laughed and bowed, she repeated her question and the ladys kept laughing holding their stomach, then she was shocked thinking that such a fine department store did not have a restroom, finally the matron came and asked again what Misaki needed, and as she told her the matron too began to laugh and told her, that she had asked for the shit house(Misaki's grandmother had emigrated from Japan before there had been plumbing).
Everything develops... the Aikido too. We should just keep training
By the way you can find this interesting E-Book in http://fortohoku.org/
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