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Old 04-24-2011, 02:59 PM   #1
Mario Tobias
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Basic Kamae - What to do when the Nage's fingers get grabbed

Hi all,

We were doing basic katatetori/morotetori techniques and one of the observations I had with my partner was that for NAGE, there is risk that Nage's fingers get grabbed by UKE instead of the wrist from kamae. UKE will then have a chance to reverse and turn it into sankyo even before NAGE performs a technique.

If you think about it, the fingers are the nearest point of attack, not the wrist. Have been practicing all this time and havn't really thought about it.
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Old 04-24-2011, 05:44 PM   #2
Janet Rosen
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Re: Basic Kamae - What to do when the Nage's fingers get grabbed

Everything is theoretically reversible...sounds like a good opportunity for after class slow experimenting!

Janet Rosen
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Old 04-25-2011, 04:52 AM   #3
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Basic Kamae - What to do when the Nage's fingers get grabbed

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Everything is theoretically reversible...sounds like a good opportunity for after class slow experimenting!
Twist 'em?
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Old 04-25-2011, 09:09 AM   #4
sisley
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Re: Basic Kamae - What to do when the Nage's fingers get grabbed

The attack doesn't begin once Uke has latched on to some part of Nage's body. Rather, Nage needs to blend with the attack and lead Uke. Once this is understood by Nage, then it doesn't really matter what part of the body Uke is attacking.

My teacher in Japan would often offer his finger for me to grab and he would always send me flying. The finger, after all, is an extension of the wrist, as long as the whole body-arm-hand-finger unit is being moved as one.
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Old 04-25-2011, 10:23 AM   #5
phitruong
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Re: Basic Kamae - What to do when the Nage's fingers get grabbed

tough call though. against someone who knows what they are doing like the chin-na folks, might as well sacrifice the finger(s) and kick the bugger, that is if you could at all. found this reversal which is kinda interesting against a nikkyo. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKrAFjsXqTM&NR=1 of course if you ran into fingers like those of rock climbers, they are pretty tough to deal with.
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Old 04-25-2011, 10:45 AM   #6
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Basic Kamae - What to do when the Nage's fingers get grabbed

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
tough call though. against someone who knows what they are doing like the chin-na folks, might as well sacrifice the finger(s) and kick the bugger, that is if you could at all. found this reversal which is kinda interesting against a nikkyo. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKrAFjsXqTM&NR=1 of course if you ran into fingers like those of rock climbers, they are pretty tough to deal with.
Nothing is absolute Phi, people have trouble getting stuff on me unless they get it patt..... Being a sparks for 20 years does develop strong fingers and forearms as anybody who uses their fingers and wrists a lot in a manual skilled job.... nowadays it's all power tools, where as we didn't have any when I was doing up full time up until1986. I still keep my hand in with plenty of DIY projects around the house, by the time you set up the power tool (lazy sods) it's done. These new guys in the trade are amazed at how fast I can home in a screw either hand and not the one your're thinking of either.....
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Old 04-25-2011, 01:18 PM   #7
Marc Abrams
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Re: Basic Kamae - What to do when the Nage's fingers get grabbed

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
tough call though. against someone who knows what they are doing like the chin-na folks, might as well sacrifice the finger(s) and kick the bugger, that is if you could at all. found this reversal which is kinda interesting against a nikkyo. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKrAFjsXqTM&NR=1 of course if you ran into fingers like those of rock climbers, they are pretty tough to deal with.
Phil:

There was absolutely no kazushi in that video clip, so it is not surprising that this person had an opportunity to do a counter. If the nikyo was executed with the person's center being disturbed, I do not think that the person would be so successful in countering. I think that some people make a mistake of simply attacking the wrist (or any particular joint with joint locks) on a nikyo without any connection and unbalancing (or jamming) of the person's center.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
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Old 04-25-2011, 01:54 PM   #8
phitruong
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Re: Basic Kamae - What to do when the Nage's fingers get grabbed

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
These new guys in the trade are amazed at how fast I can home in a screw either hand and not the one your're thinking of either.....
hey, i was going to mention something along the fast screw line.

problem with manual labor, which i do enjoy from time to time, my lady complaint that my hands became to rough, which isn't about my waza per say.

i tell ya that picking rocks to clear a field could produce tough fingers and other stuffs.

as far as dealing with finger grabs, i'd use the curve finger approach that rock climber use, might buy you a moment or two.
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Old 04-25-2011, 02:02 PM   #9
phitruong
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Re: Basic Kamae - What to do when the Nage's fingers get grabbed

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Phil:

There was absolutely no kazushi in that video clip, so it is not surprising that this person had an opportunity to do a counter.

Marc Abrams
absolutely. no kuzushi, no go. what interesting for me in that video was the usage of fingers for reversal, which i have not thought of before of being available. in aikido, we don't usually go for fingers so it's refreshing to see other options.
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Old 04-25-2011, 05:14 PM   #10
Janet Rosen
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Re: Basic Kamae - What to do when the Nage's fingers get grabbed

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
in aikido, we don't usually go for fingers so it's refreshing to see other options.
As a person with small hands and weak grasp (due to arthritis so nothing I can "do" about it) I keep in mind what two of my teachers have taught me: (besides making sure nikkyo, sankyo, etc involve connection to center and locking up the body for kuzushi) don't struggle to do "proper" grip, just take ahold of the little finger if that's all I can manage....

Janet Rosen
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Old 04-25-2011, 08:10 PM   #11
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Basic Kamae - What to do when the Nage's fingers get grabbed

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
hey, i was going to mention something along the fast screw line.

problem with manual labor, which i do enjoy from time to time, my lady complaint that my hands became to rough, which isn't about my waza per say.

i tell ya that picking rocks to clear a field could produce tough fingers and other stuffs.

as far as dealing with finger grabs, i'd use the curve finger approach that rock climber use, might buy you a moment or two.
Any manual labour will make the hands rough and tough, there is always Nivea or Vaseline to stop them chaffing Fishermen pee on their hands to stop the skin blistering, we used to do that to our feet in preparation before going on long forced marches in basic training RN, it works, I don't know how, but it does.... can't see anyone doing that on this forum......
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Old 04-25-2011, 11:10 PM   #12
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Basic Kamae - What to do when the Nage's fingers get grabbed

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Phil:

There was absolutely no kazushi in that video clip, so it is not surprising that this person had an opportunity to do a counter. If the nikyo was executed with the person's center being disturbed, I do not think that the person would be so successful in countering. I think that some people make a mistake of simply attacking the wrist (or any particular joint with joint locks) on a nikyo without any connection and unbalancing (or jamming) of the person's center.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
This was a perfectly good application of what I would call the "neutral pivot point". However, the fellow being countered wasn't running any real connection to the center. his energy was all at the wrist. So the counter worked just fine. It would not be as easy if the guy applying the "nikkyo" had some idea how to get "inside" his partner and touch his center. It's not a criticism... all counters are ipso facto only happening when the opponent has left an opening. A technique done really properly doesn't get countered. So, since they were showing the "counter" I wouldn't have expected any more emphasis on how to better do the nikkyo than there was.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 04-26-2011, 04:06 AM   #13
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Basic Kamae - What to do when the Nage's fingers get grabbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKrAFjsXqTM&NR=1

Ha! you saw the opening to George?, he made it far too obvious.... didn't like the angle he was executing much either, it has to be where it makes atemi really awkward especially if you already have kuzushi.... and the opportunity to strike atemi yourself.....
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Old 04-26-2011, 06:02 AM   #14
RonRagusa
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Re: Basic Kamae - What to do when the Nage's fingers get grabbed

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
However, the fellow being countered wasn't running any real connection to the center...
Hi George -

Understanding that the clip was a demo of a counter, and not a "how to perform nikkyo" performance, a couple of observations:

In addition to not connecting with uke's center, extending the fingers during the execution of the technique is an invitation for uke to grab them, just as was demonstrated. If nage had extended Ki with a slight irimi, as he began the technique, in order to unbalance uke a bit and connect with his center, relaxed his wrist and let his fingers conform to the shape of uke's forearm just above the wrist, there would have been no opportunity for uke to counter.

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
A technique done really properly doesn't get countered.
A point that was emphasized time and again by Maruyama sensei; usually while he was countering one of my attempts to throw him.

Best,

Ron

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Old 04-26-2011, 06:23 AM   #15
Mario Tobias
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Re: Basic Kamae - What to do when the Nage's fingers get grabbed

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
This was a perfectly good application of what I would call the "neutral pivot point". However, the fellow being countered wasn't running any real connection to the center. his energy was all at the wrist. So the counter worked just fine. It would not be as easy if the guy applying the "nikkyo" had some idea how to get "inside" his partner and touch his center. It's not a criticism... all counters are ipso facto only happening when the opponent has left an opening. A technique done really properly doesn't get countered. So, since they were showing the "counter" I wouldn't have expected any more emphasis on how to better do the nikkyo than there was.
Yes, I agree completely. There wasn't any wrist-center connection. I had my sensei do that kosadori nikkyo similar to the video. Done properly, this hurts MORE than the basic nikkyo and it hurts like hell. What I was told was to imagine cutting uke's belly with a sword (open hand, either a shomen or diagonal belly cut ) or revving a motorcycle handle (if ukes wrist is grabbed) but in both instances always attacking/piercing ukes hara.

Plus the instant that both uke and nage's tegatanas make contact for the nikkyo, uke should already be (or going) down and grimacing in pain. The more you try to get up, the more pain you experience. In the video, it looks like the nage still needs to make very large adjustments in order for the technique to work, that's why uke has a lot of time to counter.
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Old 05-01-2011, 04:10 AM   #16
Amir Krause
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Re: Basic Kamae - What to do when the Nage's fingers get grabbed

Quote:
Mario Tobias wrote: View Post
Plus the instant that both uke and nage's tegatanas make contact for the nikkyo, uke should already be (or going) down and grimacing in pain. The more you try to get up, the more pain you experience. In the video, it looks like the nage still needs to make very large adjustments in order for the technique to work, that's why uke has a lot of time to counter.
Counters are based on errors in application, a long set-up for a technique is one such less obvious error.

A good technique application should surprise Uke with un-expected lock/throw. If Uke can forsee, he can evade your technique, this may seem far-fetched if you only practice Kata, but practicing Randori (with both partners playing at will) should provide sufficient experince.

If ones fingers are grabbed, he will most likley be Uke.

Amir
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