Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Training

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-23-2011, 03:51 AM   #26
Lee Crockett
Dojo: Chichester
Location: Portsmouth
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 56
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Thanks for your comments guys.

Hannah Bjork stated
:
Lee Crockett wrote:
as O'Sensei stated repeatedly to M. Saito, hard, solid training (Kotai) should be taught up to at least 3rd Dan.

Is this a fact? Being concerned with pedagogic stuff doesn't really sound like the Ueshiba Morihei I've learned about.

Source?

I have all the M. Saito Lost Seminars on DVD and Saito states that this is what O'Sensei told him.

Many of the comments on this board relate to individual Aikido, but this is where there is confusion. There cannot be MANY forms of Aikido, there is only one. Creation of harmony with the universal.

These arent my words, but words stated by Arikawa.

If this is the essence of what Aikido is, then what people are talking about is their own interpretations, which is not Aikido.

Aikido is only achieved if harmony with the universal is created in accordance with the 9 elements. Anything outside of this is not created.

As a student who has trained in the UK for almost a decade, my observations are that we dont train Aikido, not even close. We have a Jitsu form which relies on movement before contact, and then momentum. How is this Aikido? Anybody can move and then apply something. The key is to use the "body", taijitsu, and i simply do not see this. I see arm movements and momentum where the strongest and fastest will win, and this is not the principal of what we are trying to achieve with Aikido.

I saw the Doshu in the Cardiff last year and he does what he does well. But if it is really correct that the first Doshu "changed" O'Senseis techniques, then we are not really doing the Aikido O'Sensie left to the word are we? And if this is the case, why are we calling it Aikido?
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2011, 04:43 AM   #27
Lee Salzman
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 399
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
I saw the Doshu in the Cardiff last year and he does what he does well. But if it is really correct that the first Doshu "changed" O'Senseis techniques, then we are not really doing the Aikido O'Sensie left to the word are we? And if this is the case, why are we calling it Aikido?
See here ("Kisshomaru Ueshiba's stamp on modern aikido", by Stanley Pranin): http://www.aikidojournal.com/blog/20...tanley-pranin/
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2011, 07:15 AM   #28
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Maybe where its headed to? More health less"thump"?

I don't think Saito would lie about such matters, I am pretty sure that what he said is the truth....

Good solid hard practice is the only way to achieve what he was doing.... What possible advantage would he have in saying it?

Had I had a choice and the time, and the money, I would have gone to try at Iwama, but I have made my choice and am happy with it....

In some ways I don't see a lot of difference in the T/S aikido and the "Iwama" style.....

Consider the fact that Hitohiro is now on his own, he's a pretty solid looking chap and I dare say so is his aikido....

Wouldn't you say that tells you something?

Even Proff Ueshiba told Saito senior to go and put some muscle on as he feared that Saito might not cope with some of the stronger types..... Tells me a lot....
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2011, 01:50 AM   #29
James Wyatt
Dojo: Budokwai
Location: London
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 33
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

My sensei was also a student of O'Sensei and he also said that O'Sensei had said you should only start ki no nagare when you are third dan. You have to have solid technique as there is no point in trying to run before you can even walk.

A couple of years ago I attended a seminar by a visiting aikikai instructor. His aikido was powerful and graceful; however, he kept emphasizing the basics and how everyone was making basic mistakes when attempting ki no nagare.

As one sensei said to me if you just teach kihon to beginners they get bored and leave. This is the now generation who want instant gratification and it leads to poor aikido.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2011, 02:33 AM   #30
grondahl
Dojo: Stockholms Aikidoklubb
Location: Stockholm
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 550
Sweden
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

One should remember that time to sandan also have changed quite alot since M Saito was a beginner.

Quote:
James Wyatt wrote: View Post
As one sensei said to me if you just teach kihon to beginners they get bored and leave. This is the now generation who want instant gratification and it leads to poor aikido.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2011, 07:10 AM   #31
barron
Dojo: Calgary Aikikai
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 57
Canada
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

The question that might be asked is what would O'Sensei's Aikido look like today, since it evolved so much over his lifetime. Would he be teaching from his "Budo " book (circa 1938) or from "Aikido in everyday life: giving in to get your way" (Terry Dobson, Victor Miller - 1994) and have moved beyond the physical/spiritual paradigm to more of a pastoral approach.
My martial art of choice is a path I am following as presented by the teachers who express it in a way that is relevant and meaningful to me.

Cheers

Andrew Barron
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2011, 07:17 AM   #32
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,126
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
James Wyatt wrote: View Post
My sensei was also a student of O'Sensei and he also said that O'Sensei had said you should only start ki no nagare when you are third dan. You have to have solid technique as there is no point in trying to run before you can even walk.

A couple of years ago I attended a seminar by a visiting aikikai instructor. His aikido was powerful and graceful; however, he kept emphasizing the basics and how everyone was making basic mistakes when attempting ki no nagare.

As one sensei said to me if you just teach kihon to beginners they get bored and leave. This is the now generation who want instant gratification and it leads to poor aikido.
Hi James,
Your last comment sad to say is indeed the case. cheers, Joe
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2011, 08:13 AM   #33
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Hi James,
Your last comment sad to say is indeed the case. cheers, Joe
Saying that Joe, kihon is the most neglected thing, I still practice kihon almost everyday, Sunday's off as you know.... It is the foundation of all waza, weak foundations = dodgy building = we all fall down, hence Henry Ellis Sensei's critique on ring a ring of roses a la ribbons.... Come dancing with housewife's choice, the tango? Very nice with an elegant lady!! Hardly surprising really is it?.......
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2011, 02:00 PM   #34
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 897
United_States
Online
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
James Wyatt wrote: View Post
My sensei was also a student of O'Sensei and he also said that O'Sensei had said you should only start ki no nagare when you are third dan. You have to have solid technique as there is no point in trying to run before you can even walk.
So you should just allow your uke to take a firm grip on you and then practice technique statically for ten years before even starting to enter before contact or flow with an attack?

Interesting. Not a bad idea, but you are not going to be attracting a lot of new students over the age of 40, and the smaller, less muscular people are going to immediately sign up at the BJJ place across the street.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2011, 02:37 PM   #35
James Wyatt
Dojo: Budokwai
Location: London
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 33
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Static attacks for ten years....into my seventeenth year and still practising kihon, so give me another 33 years and then I will consider trying some ki no nagare.

Patience is a virtue....which few people seem to have.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2011, 02:46 PM   #36
grondahl
Dojo: Stockholms Aikidoklubb
Location: Stockholm
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 550
Sweden
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

There is a big difference between only doing gotai practice and "still practising kihon".

Quote:
James Wyatt wrote: View Post
Static attacks for ten years....into my seventeenth year and still practising kihon, so give me another 33 years and then I will consider trying some ki no nagare.

Patience is a virtue....which few people seem to have.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2011, 04:57 PM   #37
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 897
United_States
Online
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
James Wyatt wrote: View Post
Static attacks for ten years....into my seventeenth year and still practising kihon, so give me another 33 years and then I will consider trying some ki no nagare.

Patience is a virtue....which few people seem to have.
Wow. Remind me in 33 years not to grab your wrist.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2011, 06:38 PM   #38
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,036
United_States
Online
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
James Wyatt wrote: View Post
Static attacks for ten years....into my seventeenth year and still practising kihon, so give me another 33 years and then I will consider trying some ki no nagare.

Patience is a virtue....which few people seem to have.
IIRC, Morihiro Saito, who is the usual source of that quote, was doing ki no nagare after three years...

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2011, 01:53 AM   #39
James Wyatt
Dojo: Budokwai
Location: London
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 33
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

It should also be remembered many of O'Sensei's students were experienced in other martial arts. Nowadays students rarely have any other experience and do not understand the dedication, which is needed.

Malcolm Gladwells book "Outliers" suggests 10,000 hours of practice for true mastery. O' Sensei dedicated his life to the martial arts. That is the dedication, which is needed and it needs to be accompanied by the spiritual purity.

In terms of practice we always used to do concentrate on kotai them move to jutai followed by ryu tai (which would hopefully develop to ki no nagare with time and practice).

James
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2011, 02:05 AM   #40
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,036
United_States
Online
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
James Wyatt wrote: View Post
It should also be remembered many of O'Sensei's students were experienced in other martial arts. Nowadays students rarely have any other experience and do not understand the dedication, which is needed.
As I implied when I made the previous posting, Morihiro Saito made it to san-dan in three years without much extensive experience in the martial arts (he started with Ueshiba when he was eighteen).

Even today, I've seen people in Japan make it to san-dan in four years or less. It's not that unusual, and they didn't train that hard or have any special experience.

All that should be taken into consideration when thinking about what Ueshiba said about ki no nagare starting at san-dan.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2011, 02:09 AM   #41
grondahl
Dojo: Stockholms Aikidoklubb
Location: Stockholm
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 550
Sweden
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

So aikido should take at least 30000 hours? 10000 for gotai, 10000 for jutai and 10000 for ki no nagare? Not to mention that your still "just" doing kihon waza in different forms. Another 10000 to learn jiyuwaza and 10000 for randori?

What do you define as the difference between ryu tai and ki no nagare? (I understand them as both being used to describe flowing waza).
Quote:
James Wyatt wrote: View Post
Malcolm Gladwells book "Outliers" suggests 10,000 hours of practice for true mastery. O' Sensei dedicated his life to the martial arts. That is the dedication, which is needed and it needs to be accompanied by the spiritual purity.

In terms of practice we always used to do concentrate on kotai them move to jutai followed by ryu tai (which would hopefully develop to ki no nagare with time and practice).
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2011, 04:00 AM   #42
Lee Crockett
Dojo: Chichester
Location: Portsmouth
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 56
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Some very interesting comments guys.

However, there is one issue i want to clarify.

Where i train, we train kotai, hard solid training. But, koati is NOT Aikido.

Kotai needs to be learnt to understand the basic principals, mechanics and angles, of techniques to know what does and doesnt work. It is application of these principals in a dynamic situation that make Aikido so effective.

There are a lot of clubs that move before contact is made, or on the point of contact. This may be practical for a realistic situation, but it does not teach a student correct angles, blending or mechanics of making techniques work. To be honest, it cheats the student.

This is what Saitos school tries to do. The drawback, it takes a LONG time to learn, and students today want instant gratification.

We recently had a Tissier 4th Dan come along to train, and he couldnt do a thing on our strongest and heaviest student, while my instructor throws him round like a rag doll

This is the difference in the Aikido being promoted. An artistic form for demonstration which isnt really practical, against a realistic, martial form.

If you cant apply a technique on a 20 stone solid muscle bloke in the dojo, in reality, nothing will work.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2011, 04:09 AM   #43
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
So aikido should take at least 30000 hours? 10000 for gotai, 10000 for jutai and 10000 for ki no nagare? Not to mention that your still "just" doing kihon waza in different forms. Another 10000 to learn jiyuwaza and 10000 for randori?

What do you define as the difference between ryu tai and ki no nagare? (I understand them as both being used to describe flowing waza).
Well that lets me in then? at shodan I accumulated 1637 hours, by nidan 2750 hours on top of that, another 3 years after on top of nidan In 1986 when I got sandan, I have stopped counting since then....
I have worked it out..... Since sandan, dojo training and practice 6 hours a week and sometimes at weekends let alone daily 1 hours practice most days, allowing for holidays which are very infrequent and at least one days rest works out at around 21000 hours, which gets me a 2/3rds of the way there then? I still practice kihon every day.... should make it by the time I'm 65...?
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2011, 04:35 AM   #44
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
Some very interesting comments guys.

However, there is one issue i want to clarify.

Where i train, we train kotai, hard solid training. But, koati is NOT Aikido.

Kotai needs to be learnt to understand the basic principals, mechanics and angles, of techniques to know what does and doesnt work. It is application of these principals in a dynamic situation that make Aikido so effective.

There are a lot of clubs that move before contact is made, or on the point of contact. This may be practical for a realistic situation, but it does not teach a student correct angles, blending or mechanics of making techniques work. To be honest, it cheats the student.

This is what Saitos school tries to do. The drawback, it takes a LONG time to learn, and students today want instant gratification.

We recently had a Tissier 4th Dan come along to train, and he couldnt do a thing on our strongest and heaviest student, while my instructor throws him round like a rag doll

This is the difference in the Aikido being promoted. An artistic form for demonstration which isnt really practical, against a realistic, martial form.

If you cant apply a technique on a 20 stone solid muscle bloke in the dojo, in reality, nothing will work.
That is about right, the true gravy test is whether you can use it in a real scenario, if not, you have been wasting your time, sad ain't it.....
It amazes me how people after seeing the Tissier demo's that are very dynamic, which btw way are all choreographed if you haven't noticed, is not going to look like that in a real dingdong, I thought that would be obvious, come on Lee, I see your point but maybe Shodokan will help a little on the way, it's not the all and be all but it certainly goes a long way to addressing some of your doubts.... Nothing wrong with cross training...... Many do it, including Proff Ueshiba....
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2011, 05:35 AM   #45
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 897
United_States
Online
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
There are a lot of clubs that move before contact is made, or on the point of contact. This may be practical for a realistic situation, but it does not teach a student correct angles, blending or mechanics of making techniques work. To be honest, it cheats the student.
That IS blending. How can you train blending from a static situation?

From my perspective, static training is of limited usefulness because it factors out a great number of issues that need to be dealt with, such as timing, blending, correct angles, and mechanics of making techniques work.

I would also think you'd be encouraging the use of force on force, and as I have mentioned before, it would seem to be a game for the large, squat guys.

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
This is what Saitos school tries to do. The drawback, it takes a LONG time to learn, and students today want instant gratification.
You and James are being not too subtle with your attack on other styles that do not focus on static training for many years, your implication is that these styles are the result of a moral failing on the part of the students. I would think the fault, if you choose to view it that way, would be more correctly leveled at the shihans.

You two most get fairly tweaked to see all of these internal strength threads on this forum. I mean you've got people with 20, 30 years of experience on this forum talking about how training with muscle power, force against force is a waste of time and they'd never have bothered to train that way from the beginning if they knew what they knew now.

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
We recently had a Tissier 4th Dan come along to train, and he couldnt do a thing on our strongest and heaviest student, while my instructor throws him round like a rag doll
Is it supposed to be surprising that he couldn't force your strongest and heaviest guy? But it IS surprising to see some nice ukemi?

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
This is the difference in the Aikido being promoted. An artistic form for demonstration which isnt really practical, against a realistic, martial form.
I think you are choosing words rather arbitrarily here.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2011, 05:53 AM   #46
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,909
Spain
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Static training/gotai keiko is not about muscle vs muscle. It is about muscle vs kokyu.

  Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2011, 05:55 AM   #47
Nicholas Eschenbruch
Dojo: TV Denzlingen
Location: Freiburg
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 307
Germany
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

NIce post, Cliff.

I think any dichotomy between static and non-static (and that seems to be what is alluded to here) is flawed from the beginning. Both can (and in my opinion: should) be taught from day one, they are complementary. If taught correctly, of course, but that is true for anything. Mindless repetition of kihon is as useless as mindless free flow.

FWIW I have never understood the self-congratulatory pride some people take in claiming that static should be exclusively practiced for ages. If you so please, go ahead, but why imply that other approaches are inferior?

To the best of my knowledge Tissier's students practice against resistance quite a lot. The guy in question may not have, who cares. Or maybe he just did not want to get involved in a game of who's got the longest ... static endurance.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2011, 07:33 AM   #48
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 897
United_States
Online
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Nicholas Eschenbruch wrote: View Post
FWIW I have never understood the self-congratulatory pride some people take in claiming that static should be exclusively practiced for ages. If you so please, go ahead, but why imply that other approaches are inferior?
Just to be clear, my teachers have me do static practice of various kinds as a regular part of our training, and I enjoy it very much. I do not understand why flowing or free training must be postponed until the tea leaves read auspiciously.

If there are dojos where static training is never employed at all, I can't imagine that being a very good idea either, and if that's what Lee and James are decrying then I agree.

It seems like the internal power folks draw from Chinese martial arts a concept of "soaking in" ki through a certain kind of practice, and perhaps the kihon training is a way to do that same type of thing, just without solo work and putting the mind in charge and things.

So I am not really criticizing the approach that James and Lee are advocating, I just disagree with the idea that this is "O Sensei's Aikido" (at best it is Saito Sensei's aikido?) and I really don't think you are going to win any arguments about martial effectiveness taking that approach. I also think its an "Aiki-jutsu-budo" approach moreso than a style that focuses on timing, flow, and using atemi to get people to move.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2011, 08:34 AM   #49
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
So you should just allow your uke to take a firm grip on you and then practice technique statically for ten years before even starting to enter before contact or flow with an attack?

Interesting. Not a bad idea, but you are not going to be attracting a lot of new students over the age of 40, and the smaller, less muscular people are going to immediately sign up at the BJJ place across the street.
Well Ueshiba was small and muscular, He told Saito to muscle up a bit with some form of weight training, railway track I'm told, as he probably couldn't afford a decent multi gym , (nor I come to that ) Ueshiba was afraid that he might not be able to handle some of the naturally stronger types that were entering the dojo?
I've met many small people who are small in stature, but are very muscular and strong, even in their forties... I'm reasonably muscular at 57, but it is beginning to sag a bit even though I still train isometrics, Those BJJ er's aren't exactly short of a bit of muscle themselves....
Why is it people want to do aikido but are not prepared to do the the extra curricular to improve their waza or increase their core strength, Isometrics is a very simple way of doing that, yet it is neglected....
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2011, 10:14 AM   #50
James Wyatt
Dojo: Budokwai
Location: London
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 33
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

With regards to training it is quite simple, "each to their own". Everyone should find a sensei who they like, respect and feel comfortable with. It is also important to remember being tori is only 50% of the practice. In O'Sensei' s class everyone had to give a proper and committed attack. Therefore 50% of your class and tuition should be on the attack and the ukemi.

Whilst I have trained with a concentration on kotai, it is also balanced with jutai and some ryu tai. Kotai is not about strength, it is about technique. I am 6'5'' and 210 lbs and have been thrown around like a rag doll by some very slight people and found excruciating pain in the application.

I have respect for all styles, some focus on the martial and some on the art. I believe martial comes first and the art will follow.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido Reuben General 122 02-10-2010 04:39 PM
The continued Evolution of Aikido salim General 716 12-27-2008 10:00 PM
Baseline skillset eyrie Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 1633 05-23-2008 01:35 PM
For Ted Ehara - Boundary of your aikido? billybob General 123 12-18-2006 04:52 AM
Two things. Veers General 8 04-04-2003 01:54 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:26 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate