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Old 04-20-2011, 11:04 AM   #76
DH
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

I think presumptions abound;
1. That the knife wielder knows what they're doing with a knife,
(the presence of a knife is only a game changer to the degree that the one who is holding it has the experience and/or will to use it)
2. That you must control the knife hand,
(sometimes the knife wielder is just as much knife "fixated" as you are...it can limit the options of the both of you)
3. That the knife is lethal,
(far from the truth)
4. That surviving knife attacks makes you some sort of expert.
(reports are rare and attacks are singular and anecdotal, and many times people are just plain lucky, not necessarily tactically proficient)
5. That training tanto or stick(s) in an aikido dojo automatically makes you competent in a real world confrontation
(So far, either by personal experience or video, I have never seen this to be true, of those I have met who train knife and stick, they are taken apart easily. Most people can be dominated by a combination of trained, true aggression and a mindset that is used to getting hurt and still getting the job done. There is a trained mental state that most martial artists cannot and do not know how to deal with.)
6. Knife attacks are the same
(Knife attacks are so atypical, that the only thing that is consistent about them is their lack of consistency.)

7. The predator mindset is "safer"
Predatory mindset is supposed to be different from a fight (typically Predators will not risk much to get a meal), yet evidence has shown that -depending on where you are- some people will go all the way with you, risking everything, for a few dollars.

That said I have been stabbed and sliced, twice, booted in the head beat with bar stools, on and on...in general I have had my life in my own hands more than a few times....I'm the one who went home that night. I don't consider myself an expert in the slightest, yet I have not met the typical modern martial arts teacher yet who I could not completely decimate with a knife and I am far from alone or even unusual in that regard. Those that specifically train weapons and then do so freestyle with armor-on, have a different mindset and tactical awareness that is palpable. You are not going to ever approach that from doing "kata" or "randori" in a traditional setting-as many who are stepping out recently are finding out. Put simply...it's different. It is for very good reason that those who train that way, argue about it with those who's pursuits are a bit more "casual."
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 04-20-2011 at 11:19 AM.
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Old 04-20-2011, 11:36 AM   #77
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I think presumptions abound;
1. That the knife wielder knows what they're doing with a knife,
(the presence of a knife is only a game changer to the degree that the one who is holding it has the experience and/or will to use it)
2. That you must control the knife hand,
(sometimes the knife wielder is just as much knife "fixated" as you are...it can limit the options of the both of you)
3. That the knife is lethal,
(far from the truth)
4. That surviving knife attacks makes you some sort of expert.
(reports are rare and attacks are singular and anecdotal, and many times people are just plain lucky, not necessarily tactically proficient)
5. That training tanto or stick(s) in an aikido dojo automatically makes you competent in a real world confrontation
(So far, either by personal experience or video, I have never seen this to be true, of those I have met who train knife and stick, they are taken apart easily. Most people can be dominated by a combination of trained, true aggression and a mindset that is used to getting hurt and still getting the job done. There is a trained mental state that most martial artists cannot and do not know how to deal with.)
6. Knife attacks are the same
(Knife attacks are so atypical, that the only thing that is consistent about them is their lack of consistency.)

7. The predator mindset is "safer"
Predatory mindset is supposed to be different from a fight (typically Predators will not risk much to get a meal), yet evidence has shown that -depending on where you- are some people will go all the way with you, risking everything, for a few dollars.

That said I have been stabbed and sliced, twice, booted in the head beat with bar stools, on and on...in general I have had my life in my own hands more than a few times....I'm the one who went home that night. I don't consider myself an expert in the slightest, yet I have not met the typical modern martial arts teacher yet who I could not completely decimate with a knife and I am far from alone or even unusual in that regard. Those that specifically train weapons and then do so freestyle with armor-on, have a different mindset and tactical awareness that is palpable. You are not going to ever approach that that from doing "kata" or "randori" in a traditional setting-as many who are stepping out recently are finding out. Put simply...it's different. It is for very good reason that those who train that way, argue about it with those who's pursuits are a bit more "casual."
Cheers
Dan
Sounds honest to me Dan.... Seems we can agree on some things...
I haven't always got away unscathed, on one occasion many years back in my early years of aikido I had my head stomped on for being "too nice" and was close to death needing hospital treatment, my head looking like a football. I recovered quickly, but still have feint scars for testament....... It hasn't happened since.....
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Old 04-20-2011, 01:37 PM   #78
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Thanks Dan. great Post and the most realistic assessment I've seen here.

William Hazen
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Old 04-20-2011, 02:03 PM   #79
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

I would like to add Dan That though I agree about most Aikido It really helps that we train with weapons as the basis for our practice and that I bring years of combat training to the equation. The Problem with most practice is (as you mentioned) Martial Mindset which is sorely lacking in most cases. Also you folks should check out James Williams Sensei. His Koryu and combat approach is used by many different LE and SO units.

Knives and Edged Weapons have two components. Physical and Psychological. More often that not the Armed Attacker's Psychological Edge over an opponent makes up for their lack of skill with a blade. Any Practice that does not take this into account and incorporate it into their training might as well not practice it at all. Knife "take aways" should not be something you practice "every once in a while". They should have their own core curriculum within your practice. The difference between a live blade and a wooden tanto is huge and is a factor that must be considered.

The Predator mindset uses this 'fear" factor as it's primary component. If you don't learn to practice, adapt, and blend with the instant "adrenaline dump" you experience in the first minute when someone shows a knife no amount of casual training may help. Predators count on this element of surprise and a good knife fighter won't show his blade until it's half way in your stomach.

William Hazen
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Old 04-20-2011, 02:04 PM   #80
Keith Larman
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Just fwiw... A friend of mine with limited martial arts training but who had spent time boxing for health was mugged in an alley. He never saw the knife. All he knew is one guy grabbed at him and another was behind him. Since he was grabbed he did the only thing he knew -- he punched the guy in front of him as hard as he could in the face. My friend said he was both scared and angry (how dare you attack me -- I have a wife and child at home!) He had no doubt he busted the guy's nose pretty badly (blood everywhere, he stumbled away, etc.). Anyway, both bad guys took off. My friend started to walk away and realized his leg hurt -- voila, knife sticking out. Oops. So he stumbled into view, got help, etc. I don't know all the details from that point on but nothing critical was hit even though the pocket knife was fully inserted into his thigh. Nice scar. Lost a little blood but not too much, pressure controlled the bleeding.

Another friend was mugged on a trip to New York. Someone came up behind him and pressed a knife to his back. That friend reacted poorly (just give him the damned watch) and tried to turn and was stabbed in his back for his troubles. He didn't realize he was stabbed, however for a short time (same as my other friend). Again, a night in the hospital, a bit of cleaning and stitches, but no major injury really.

Final story. When my wife first went to work in the medical field (diagnostic imaging) she worked at a large hospital in downtown Los Angeles. Spent time working the emergency room. Lots of shootings, stabbings, etc. She was surprised that the "lethality" (is that a word?) of stabbings was so varied and hard to predict. In one day she'd see some guy who looked like he ran into a food processor who'd go home later in the day with a lot of stitches and then someone else with a single seemingly small puncture who ended up in the morgue.

Anyway... The point of all this for me is that it is a really complicated issue. I've played with people on the mat who do serious old-school tanto stuff. I'd never want to run into that in the real world. I've played with some of the FMA guys -- I should say I basically died repeatedly... Scary stuff. But the average bad guy on the street? Who knows. He might do something stupid or he might just kill me in a blink.

FWIW I really like Dan's comment about weapon fixation and it's something I harp on. Both with respect to the guy holding it and the guy trying to take it away. In my first example my friend didn't realize there was a knife but I suppose the muggers never thought someone would just punch their face in ignoring the knife.

Sorry, nothing really substantial else to add. Me, I try to avoid knife fights... And if I'm ever faced with one, well, I suppose it will sound rather un-aikido like but I hope I'm going to do as much damage as possible to that bastard as fast as I possibly can. How? Sheesh, don't know -- it'll depend on what he does. Scary stuff.

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Old 04-21-2011, 12:34 AM   #81
Michael Hackett
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

One of the things we've learned in the police world is the view of a knife versus a gun. A firearm is intimidating certainly, but most people have never experienced what a firearm can do to another human, except on TV and then the actor shows up on the following sitcom. We've all been cut by knives at one time or another and generally know how dangerous they are. As a result people are usually far more frightened of a knife than they are of a gun.

On the other hand a real knife man will cut you to ribbons before you even realize a knife is part of the equation. In my own limited view, if your assailant lets you see his blade, he probably isn't a skilled knife fighter. Does that mean that you can defend yourself more effectively? Perhaps. Maybe he will be really clumbsy in his attack and maybe he will panic and go crazy with his blade.

You're certainly better off than someone who does no martial art at all, but unless you train constantly and rigorously for knife defense, you are going to be injured, and perhaps injured badly.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 04-21-2011, 08:55 AM   #82
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
One of the things we've learned in the police world is the view of a knife versus a gun. A firearm is intimidating certainly, but most people have never experienced what a firearm can do to another human, except on TV and then the actor shows up on the following sitcom. We've all been cut by knives at one time or another and generally know how dangerous they are. As a result people are usually far more frightened of a knife than they are of a gun.

On the other hand a real knife man will cut you to ribbons before you even realize a knife is part of the equation. In my own limited view, if your assailant lets you see his blade, he probably isn't a skilled knife fighter. Does that mean that you can defend yourself more effectively? Perhaps. Maybe he will be really clumbsy in his attack and maybe he will panic and go crazy with his blade.

You're certainly better off than someone who does no martial art at all, but unless you train constantly and rigorously for knife defense, you are going to be injured, and perhaps injured badly.
Good honest to sense words there Michael....
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Old 04-22-2011, 10:46 AM   #83
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

This whole discussion comes down to the fatal flaw that we martial artists all share. We want to know about martial things, fighting, and weapons etc, yet we're mostly a pretty peaceful group, so we don't do a lot of it.

Some here have done some soldiering, a few of us have gotten in more fights then we'd like to, some are peace officers, some competitors and the vast majority have little to no actual fighting experience (outside of a dojo or tournament).

We expect martial arts training to make us capable fighters, but the truth is only fighting can do that. Sure we can learn useful skills, sound strategies, improve our physical ability, improve our will power, gain focus and awareness, etc. But we're not ever going to get life and death (weapon) fighting experience without getting in those kinds of fights regularly.

One time a Karate guy asked me if I knew how to break an arm, I told him I did not. He seemed really shocked, and reminded me that I did lots of Jujutsu and Aikido, I must know how to break an arm. I told him that I had never broken anyones arm, and while I know lots of theories about breaking arms, I had never experienced the sensation, so I didn't really know how to break an arm.

We can go even deeper with this understanding, which leads us to a place none of us really want to go. Even if you are an experienced fighter, have been in many fights, and learned much from them, every fight is a new experience. There are no guarantees. A quicker or stronger person with no training or experience my defeat you in the blink of an eye. There is no technique that works 100% of the time. There is no system that grants constant success. Things just are what they are.

So back to the question at hand, "is true Aikido effective for disarming". Aikido does teach numerous ways in which you can take something out of someone's hand. If you spar with these methods regularly, you can gain the ability to do this under pressure, against someone resisting you. Does this guarantee anything, nope. Can it give you some perspective on the problem, likely. Will it make you like Batman, in no way shape or form.

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Old 04-22-2011, 11:29 AM   #84
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

That is a really good post Chris, bears things succinctly, my train of thought to.... thank you
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Old 04-22-2011, 12:01 PM   #85
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Good Post Chris. Please note I have broken a an arm as have some of the folks here. I am not sure that those experiences help with my training though it was my training that "helped" me break those arms. So there may be a disconnect there.

For example every LEO certifies with their firearm every year. Most and some of us soldiers also enhance this training with combat pistol courses. Learning to fire their weapons under duress.

Most of them never shoot anyone during their entire LEO Career. Does that mean when the time comes their training will be of no use because they have never actually shot someone? I don't really think you believe that. I have watched your Your You Tube Videos and you guys look serious. I admire that.

Personally I happen to believe the old saying (To paraphrase) "The more sweat in the Dojo The less blood on the street."

In any Martial Practice the Martial Mindset/Spirit is Earned. Never Given.

"Sincere Heart Through Austere Practice."- Shoji Nishio Shihan

William Hazen.
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Old 04-22-2011, 12:16 PM   #86
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

FYI Chris- Some outside insight into our practice by a member of Kampaibudokai.

http://www.kampaibudokai.org/Nishio.htm

Please note that since this review was published... Yoshida Sensei has continued to modify and improve upon our Iaido and Aikido. I am sure the other Senior Students of Nishio Shihan are also doing the same.

William Hazen
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Old 04-22-2011, 03:05 PM   #87
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
For example every LEO certifies with their firearm every year. Most and some of us soldiers also enhance this training with combat pistol courses. Learning to fire their weapons under duress.

Most of them never shoot anyone during their entire LEO Career. Does that mean when the time comes their training will be of no use because they have never actually shot someone? I don't really think you believe that. I have watched your Your You Tube Videos and you guys look serious. I admire that.

Personally I happen to believe the old saying (To paraphrase) "The more sweat in the Dojo The less blood on the street."

William Hazen.
Hey William,
I believe martial arts training can, and does help one deal with physical conflict that takes place outside of the Dojo. However when people start asking questions like "what martial art system is best for real life fights", or "what martial art system trains you to defeat an armed attacker" we are headed down a slippery slope.

Training to use a pistol is a good example. In theory shooting a piece of paper, and shooting a person should be the same. People who have done both will tell you they are most decidedly not in anyway the same thing. Does that mean we have to shoot people in training, no. Does it mean that training with a paper target is useless, no again. It simply means that we must realized the limitations of our training, and see what we are really doing when we train in the martial arts.

When we train in the martial arts we are not fighting, we are training. We learn about things that might have use in physical conflict. We learn about ourselves and our limitations. We learn lots about martial things. But none of this can ever give us the actual experience of doing them, on the fly, when your life is in danger.

Usually when people ask questions like "is true Aikido effective for disarming", they are looking for a guarantee. They want someone to assure them that if they eat their vitamins, say their prayers, and put the time in, they will be able to beat up the toughest guy on the block. The truth is, no such system can ever exist.

This is way saying things like, Filipino fighting system "X" is better then Japanese system "Z" is a waste of time. All we can do is learn, keep an open mind, and learn.

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Old 04-22-2011, 04:22 PM   #88
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Usually when people ask questions like "is true Aikido effective for disarming", they are looking for a guarantee. They want someone to assure them that if they eat their vitamins, say their prayers, and put the time in, they will be able to beat up the toughest guy on the block. The truth is, no such system can ever exist.

This is a way saying things like, Filipino fighting system "X" is better then Japanese system "Z" is a waste of time. All we can do is learn, keep an open mind, and learn.
When it comes to weapons, there are most certainly better ways to train than others. Saying a method is better than another method is most certainly "not a waste of time". IMO, particularly when one has seen consistent results comparing various methods and people in them over the years.
I think stating "All training is equal" is the PC version of "martial art speak," often espoused by those with limited exposure to more sophisticated methods and models. No harm, no foul, it's just simply all they are capable of seeing.

Case in point:
You yourself have made the argument that for ring fighting or one on one fighting, aikido is not the best or most suited method. In your view aikido is best for multiple attacks and for weapons.
In much the same way I would say that for a host of reasons...when it comes to weapons work...aikido foot work and movement and its use of-weapons are most certainly not the best or most efficient method for fighting with weapons as judged by every person who has reached a certain level of exposure and experience I am familiar with or have read of.
I've also never seen or heard of experienced weapons people leaving their art and opting for aiki-weapons and aikido movement as a superior method of effective weapons work...not even once, instead the opposite is true.

While I understand that may be difficult to hear and process, it speaks to the ever increasing exposure aikido-ka have had to traditional weapons work and their oft repeated commentary both public and private. You can then up the anti, to include people who have trained traditional and modern weapons and then also went on to train with armor and freestyle full contact work.
Regards
Dan. ..
.

Last edited by DH : 04-22-2011 at 04:35 PM.
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Old 04-22-2011, 05:16 PM   #89
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

The problem I have is with the "certain level of exposure".

Again we get into a realm of fantasy and trust. "There are certain experts in certain areas who know more then you so trust them..."

Some people feel confidant that others can give them reassurances about what they can an cannot do. This is a fantasy based on a high level of comfortability with others telling you what is right and wrong. Therein lies the problem. Without an educated opinion you can't know what "works" and what doesn't. Without an educated opinion you won't know when someone reaches "a certain level of exposure". You can't get an educated opinion without being in numerous armed conflicts. If you've been in numerous armed conflicts you don't need someone to tell you what "works".

Speaking to my opinions on Aikido, I've been in numerous unarmed one-on-one conflicts, both in and out of the ring. I offer my opinion that Aikido is not an optimal system for these encounters. I usually follow this with, "try it out for yourself". I have done a large amount of sparring with weapons, mostly in controlled environments. I have found Aikido technique to be of great use in these situations, again I add "try it out for yourself".

So try it out for yourself.

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Old 04-22-2011, 05:55 PM   #90
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

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Hey William,
It simply means that we must realized the limitations of our training, and see what we are really doing when we train in the martial arts.

When we train in the martial arts we are not fighting, we are training. We learn about things that might have use in physical conflict. We learn about ourselves and our limitations. We learn lots about martial things. But none of this can ever give us the actual experience of doing them, on the fly, when your life is in danger.

Usually when people ask questions like "is true Aikido effective for disarming", they are looking for a guarantee. They want someone to assure them that if they eat their vitamins, say their prayers, and put the time in, they will be able to beat up the toughest guy on the block. The truth is, no such system can ever exist.
Understood Chris. Again without sounding like a broken record. In my experiance...The purpose all Modern/Gendai Japanese Budo is to develop a Martial Mindset/Spirit. The Koryu practices have also evolved from pure combat systems into (here's a weighted phrase) Spiritual Disciplines. No one strolls around much anymore like Mushashi testing the their Fighting Skills in combat. Even O'Sensei realized that the peak of anyone's Martial Arts Practice was not the ability to vanquish every opponent but to achieve mastery over yourself. If you can accomplish this then almost all fighting (except in self defense) is rendered moot. That's why I find these kinds of 'disarming" questions ludicrous. The point being like all Martial Practices you get out of it what you put into it. You want to learn knife takeaways using Aikido? Put the time and effort in...Keep an open mind...and practice hard.

Shoji Nishio's View was (and one I have come to accept) That Aikido in order to be a Budo Had to be a Martial Art and MUST be effective against other Martial Arts both Gendai and Koryu. Almost all the Koryu Arts are based on the sword. Nishio Shihan thought it sad that Some Aikido folks discontinued this "Aikido is the Sword" philosophy, and he thought it would eventually ruin the future development of Aikido. In his view Aikido without weapons is not anything more than dancing. You cannot have one (Budo) without the other (Martial Art).

That is the main reason I hope you continue to "seek a better way" of doing things. I applaud your efforts and your own personal journey in this regard. I too spend my time in Aikido "seeking a better way" It is a core philosophy of our practice. In that regard One of these days I hope to learn from Dan Hardin or one of his students about Aiki. It can only make our/my Aikido better.

Some folks would argue that this is not "true" Aikido. It is something different. I would strongly disagree.

See you on the mat one of these days.

William Hazen
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Old 04-22-2011, 06:31 PM   #91
Janet Rosen
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

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See you on the mat one of these days.
Hmmm.... gonna have to "bump" that California meet up thread...

Janet Rosen
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Old 04-22-2011, 06:34 PM   #92
DH
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

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Again we get into a realm of fantasy and trust. "There are certain experts in certain areas who know more then you so trust them..."

Some people feel confidant that others can give them reassurances about what they can an cannot do. This is a fantasy based on a high level of comfortability with others telling you what is right and wrong.
I'm not sure why you opt for fantasy based on comfortability.
Is there a reason it has to be that way?
Why can't it include reality based on getting our ass handed to us by a superior skill set from someone we don't like very much and are un-comfortable with?

I don't know about you but I have met many men who knew more than me. and yes...I trusted them and learned from them, sometimes in areas I did not believe were going to work, and here is a key point: I could not make what they were teaching me work in freestyle fighting (at first) so I simply HAD to trust them in order to move forward. At one point I quit because I could not make it work. I later went back. So the key was indeed, trust.
I'm glad I did because I saved myself from turning into a strength based grappler, and from three different men; from wasting my time in the wrong direction with weapons.

Quote:
Therein lies the problem. Without an educated opinion you can't know what "works" and what doesn't. Without an educated opinion you won't know when someone reaches "a certain level of exposure". You can't get an educated opinion without being in numerous armed conflicts. If you've been in numerous armed conflicts you don't need someone to tell you what "works".
Being in armed conflicts only teaches you the limits of what you know, not what the potentials are.
Case in point in umarmed conflict:
I am quite sure that Dan Severn would have lectured you till you fell asleep on his knowledge of what worked based on his experience. That ended in about three minutes witth a guy a hundred pounds less than him. What did HE learn? That in fact he did not know some very critical things..........

We take what we have learned somewhere and we test it and we draw conclusions. A broader range of exposure to other systems and other skilled men usually tends to temper us and grow us at the same time.

Reinvention V stumbling in the dark trying to find better solutions.
This is an interesting dilema I see repeated by all of us; young and old in martial arts. We/ they are convinced that testing leads to a knowledge of what works. Problem is what they are really testing is the limits of what they know and what they can make work. In many respects they are re-inventing the wheel while earnestly looking for solutions that many times have already been dicovered, codified, refined and vetted...through real combat in armed situations by many other men.
I propose that
a. They could have saved a shitload of time
b. They could have jumped light years ahead with new experimentation based on superior information leading to more sound conclusions from their very real future experimentation.
People do like to forge their own way through the weeds....
Instead of taking a well worn path
Oh well..

Quote:
Speaking to my opinions on Aikido, I've been in numerous unarmed one-on-one conflicts, both in and out of the ring. I offer my opinion that Aikido is not an optimal system for these encounters. I usually follow this with, "try it out for yourself". I have done a large amount of sparring with weapons, mostly in controlled environments. I have found Aikido technique to be of great use in these situations, again I add "try it out for yourself".

So try it out for yourself.
Well, I am quite sure from our discussions in the past, that our experiences in training and learning are from very different sources of information.
Further, that our testing is of a different methodology.
We only ...finally...arrive at a similar end where we test full on.
But, interestingly, I have not gleaned the same results and opinions as you, and yet oddly enough we are both going at it with and without armor right?
So how do you explain our different results and opinions if all testing is supposed to arrive at the same conclusions.... of what works?
Just say'n
Dan

Last edited by DH : 04-22-2011 at 06:41 PM.
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Old 04-22-2011, 06:50 PM   #93
DH
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
That is the main reason I hope you continue to "seek a better way" of doing things. I applaud your efforts and your own personal journey in this regard. I too spend my time in Aikido "seeking a better way" It is a core philosophy of our practice.
On any other day I applaud Chris's mindset as well-it was/is my own. I just see some flaws in the logic of the approach is all

Quote:
In that regard One of these days I hope to learn from Dan Hardin or one of his students about Aiki. It can only make our/my Aikido better.
Some folks would argue that this is not "true" Aikido. It is something different. I would strongly disagree.
See you on the mat one of these days.
William Hazen
Well, unless they are lying to my face (always a possibility) Those I meet tells me either:
a) in their view this is the aiki in aikido and or Daito ryu
b) they don't really know (or even care) what the aiki in aikido or Daito ryu was supposed to be, but they want what I am doing anyway.
c) This is the power in their "X" art.
I'm just me. I no longer care about the what or where anymore either.
And William, it's Harden not Hardin.
Hope to see ya this fall when I come back to Calif.
All the best
Dan

Last edited by DH : 04-22-2011 at 06:57 PM.
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Old 04-22-2011, 07:08 PM   #94
Aikibu
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

In a world of Proven Superior Martial Techniques vs Handguns, Automatic Weapons, Fuel Air Explosives and Nukes...What is the relevance behind learning any Martial Art or Fighting Style?

Done for now... back to trudging through the (my) weeds chasing Bodhidharma.

William Hazen
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Old 04-22-2011, 07:10 PM   #95
DH
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
In a world of Proven Superior Martial Techniques vs Handguns, Automatic Weapons, Fuel Air Explosives and Nukes...What is the relevance behind learning any Martial Art or Fighting Style?

Done for now... back to trudging through the (my) weeds chasing Bodhidharma.

William Hazen
"Budo is about living, not dying." .......Otake
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Old 04-22-2011, 07:13 PM   #96
Aikibu
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
On any other day I applaud Chris's mindset as well-it was/is my own. I just see some flaws in the logic of the approach is all

Well, unless they are lying to my face (always a possibility) Those I meet tells me either:
a) in their view this is the aiki in aikido and or Daito ryu
b) they don't really know (or even care) what the aiki in aikido or Daito ryu was supposed to be, but they want what I am doing anyway.
c) This is the power in their "X" art.
I'm just me. I no longer care about the what or where anymore either.
And William, it's Harden not Hardin.
Hope to see ya this fall when I come back to Calif.
All the best
Dan
Forgive me Dan for misspelling your name. Thanks for your great posts. I really can't wait for you to show me my two left feet. LOL

Thank You (in advance) also for giving me the opportunity to learn from you.

Namaste'

WIlliam Hazen
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Old 04-22-2011, 07:15 PM   #97
Aikibu
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
"Budo is about living, not dying." .......Otake
Perfect!!!

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 04-22-2011 at 07:18 PM.
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Old 04-23-2011, 04:38 AM   #98
Michael Varin
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
I don't consider myself an expert in the slightest, yet I have not met the typical modern martial arts teacher yet who I could not completely decimate with a knife and I am far from alone or even unusual in that regard.
Decimate:
To destroy or kill a large part of (a group).
To inflict great destruction or damage on.
To reduce markedly in amount.
To select by lot and kill one in every ten of.

Potential grammatical usage errors aside, this is a bold statement even by your high standards, Dan.

Can you please clarify?

Are you the one with the knife while decimating or are you the unarmed man? Do other weapons factor into your "decimation"?

When you say "modern martial arts", do you mean Georges St. Pierre, Brock Lesnar, Marc Denny, John Shaw, Gabe Suarez, or your average 45 year old aikidoist who spends 40 hours per week at his desk job?

What would account for this ability, as un-expert and far from unusual as it may be?

I really don't understand.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 04-23-2011, 08:10 AM   #99
KaliGman
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
When it comes to weapons, there are most certainly better ways to train than others. Saying a method is better than another method is most certainly "not a waste of time". IMO, particularly when one has seen consistent results comparing various methods and people in them over the years.
I think stating "All training is equal" is the PC version of "martial art speak," often espoused by those with limited exposure to more sophisticated methods and models. No harm, no foul, it's just simply all they are capable of seeing.

Case in point:
You yourself have made the argument that for ring fighting or one on one fighting, aikido is not the best or most suited method. In your view aikido is best for multiple attacks and for weapons.
In much the same way I would say that for a host of reasons...when it comes to weapons work...aikido foot work and movement and its use of-weapons are most certainly not the best or most efficient method for fighting with weapons as judged by every person who has reached a certain level of exposure and experience I am familiar with or have read of.
I've also never seen or heard of experienced weapons people leaving their art and opting for aiki-weapons and aikido movement as a superior method of effective weapons work...not even once, instead the opposite is true.

While I understand that may be difficult to hear and process, it speaks to the ever increasing exposure aikido-ka have had to traditional weapons work and their oft repeated commentary both public and private. You can then up the anti, to include people who have trained traditional and modern weapons and then also went on to train with armor and freestyle full contact work.
Regards
Dan. ..
.
That was quite well said.

Armor, no armor, aluminum training knives, wooden training knives, sticks as fighting knife simulators, steel training knives, folding training knives (my favorites, since folding knives are so common and carrying a folding knife and only training with a 8 inch bladed fixed blade trainer is not a good recipe for success when using that folder), armed versus the blade, unarmed versus the blade, low level and ground work against the blade, working with live blades, practice cutting and thrusting on various targets with live blades, examining the results of actual assaults and combats with the blade (both in my own law enforcement investigations and reviewing those of others for training purposes), being in actual confrontations against blade wielding assailants---being exposed to these methodologies, tools, and experiences while sparring, training, investigating (which is what the tax payers pay me to do), and critically evaluating what works for real in the environments that I work within have shown me that to be good against the blade, you have to train in blade methodologies. I have never seen anyone who was what I consider good when working against a knife wielding opponent who was not experienced in blade fighting methodologies. Aikido provides people with many tools and various benefits. However, Aikido methodologies against a knife attack are in no way equal to methodologies used by systems that are based on the knife. Both World Cup Rally drivers and Formula One drivers are phenomenal and highly skilled behind the wheel. If you took a champion driver from either discipline and had them compete in the type of race that they did not normally drive within, they are not normally going to be competitive in the new discipline without a lot of work and training. I have worked in the aikido/aikijujitsu discipline and in kali and silat systems, along with several other martial disciplines. In reality, when it comes to blade, we are not comparing rally to formula driving, and a better analogy would be basketball versus soccer. There are similarities, such as putting a ball in a goal and the need for aerobic conditioning and speed. However, the skill sets needed to be good are radically different.
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Old 04-23-2011, 08:42 AM   #100
KaliGman
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Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

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Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Decimate:
To destroy or kill a large part of (a group).
To inflict great destruction or damage on.
To reduce markedly in amount.
To select by lot and kill one in every ten of.
.
Decimate was originally a military term and referred to discipline within a Roman legion. It was a serious punishment in which ten percent of the legion was executed in punishment for the failure of the legion. It has been used in a martial context generally in reference to casualties inflicted upon an enemy force. To decimate an enemy force was to kill or incapacitate ten per cent of the force. The term is often confused with devastate.

Within the realm of knife fighting, I have not seen the term used. However, I can see it being applicable. How much do your arms weigh? Are they 10% of your body weight or more? The vast majority of Aikidoka that I have trained with, sparred with, or observed keep their arms relatively immobile, pushed out like antennae, when they are in their "ready" stance. Filipino martial arts practitioners do not do this. The arms are mostly in motion, because they are targets (one of the primary targets during the initial entry against the opponent) for the blade. I do not associate or train with Mr. Harden, but I have been told that he likes khukuris. I have a few of these knives, though, for big knives I generally prefer a fighting bowie. In recent tests of a pair of Cold Steel Bowies (a San Mai III Laredo Bowie and San Mai III TrailMaster) that I conducted for a magazine article, I performed multiple cuts per second with these big blades, severing huge pieces off of my cutting media. WIth a bit of training, this is not difficult to do at all, even while conducting footwork and using the off hand to deflect, distract, hit, parry, bridge, or trap. There is no warning. There is no windup. There is no telltale twitch of the shoulder muscle so prevalent when most people attempt to initiate a cut. There is simply a snap down and a snap up, and, in the blink of an eye, two arms are laying on the floor severed at or near the elbow. If the arms do not weigh ten percent of the total weight of your body, I am sure that other pieces can pretty much be severed at will until the desired weight is reached. Yes you can move and defend, but, against someone skilled in the use of the blade, the smart money is going to be betting on twitchy little bits of you laying on the floor rather than a spectacular disarm and throw of the "disgusting blade wielding thug."
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