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Old 04-20-2011, 07:20 PM   #1
Tony Wagstaffe
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Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Although I have been away for a month on a ban, I have looked in periodically as an observer...
I see certain groups stick together, they automatically slap each other on the back whatever esoterical/philisophical clap trap they write. If newcomers or even fairly long term members (like myself?) say a word out of line, a bit of hard, but harmless ribbing, or make or post a joke, or a youtube link as part of that joke, and that joke does not humour the "clique" The " clique"` pounce with a childish wolf pack mentality which does not like, in the least, controversial opinion, fur is ruffled somewhat, as it does not fall in line with their comfortable idealism of "aikido"?
I will most likely get banned again unnecessarily, so who should I suck up to and congratulate every time they post? Should I even go as far as telling Graham Christian (aka known in jest as tea cosy or even Tetley) that I have started collecting his videos or is that just too much?
So I ask again is AikiWebb a "Clique" .....???
I'm sure there are many out there who would really like to know.....
 
Old 04-20-2011, 08:28 PM   #2
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

I don't think it's "clique-y." I think the biggest issue I've seen here has more to do with personality clashes and differences in social norms than going against some clique(s). This is a matter of conventions of communication. If I spoke here the way I speak to my friends I would be banned. The "California Howdy" is a standard greeting for my oldest friends; we regularly insult the hell out of each other, but I would never talk that way to other groups of friends because they would be insulted, no matter how long I explained that they were just jokes. It's a similar issue here I think.
I think some of your language here is a little loaded. Note how you describe ribbing as harmless while the responses to it are childish and animal-like. It's all harmless: it's all words here. The question isn't "who's on what team," it's, "what are the accepted norms and how can we respect the other while holding true to our own values." Where the two cannot meet we have to simply agree to disagree.
...My tupence.
Take care,
Matt

Last edited by mathewjgano : 04-20-2011 at 08:33 PM.
 
Old 04-20-2011, 10:15 PM   #3
Janet Rosen
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

I regularly have disagreements on training issues or priorities or whatever with other posters but we keep it respectful and over months or years learn each other's quirks, foibles, and areas of fundamental agreements or disagreements.

I regularly see posters, new and old alike, chime in with a specific opinion or a bit of information in response to a poster, then go back to lurking until another post days or weeks later is pertinent to their interests.

Different people come here for different reasons, just as folks have different reasons for being in the dojo.

Just a few random hopefully on-topic thoughts.

Last edited by Janet Rosen : 04-20-2011 at 10:16 PM. Reason: Spelling

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
 
Old 04-20-2011, 10:16 PM   #4
graham christian
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Tony.
I'm fascinated and 'honoured' once again to be mentioned by you.

I think there are cliques in all walks of life including here so that is normal. The truth is it is not those who get you banned it is you who get yourself banned.

I am one of the many who you remark upon. So what. I don't find what you say funny or hurtful or anything really. However I do see you getting yourself into trouble again. Can you not see why? Really?

If you want to know my true feelings about you they are that you have no doubt in the past put many years into your Aikido and got yourself up to a good level. Go teach, live it, enjoy it. I truly believe that when you do that and are happy and successful at it you will have no need to criticise others.

Is everyone attacking me for being me or is there something about my communication I should change? (maybe that's the real question)

Anyway, being a clique of one that almost makes us partners.

Enjoy, G.

Last edited by graham christian : 04-20-2011 at 10:19 PM. Reason: Added sentence
 
Old 04-20-2011, 11:02 PM   #5
akiy
 
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Hi folks,

Just a quick reminder to please keep your discussions directed toward the topic rather than directed towards the people behind the topic. Let's refrain from making things personal, shall we?

And, to be quick about this but hopefully to the point: my intention is to have AikiWeb be an open forum where discussions take place in a respectful manner. Disagreements are welcome as are passionate responses -- as long as they are communicated with civility. From my own experiences in 20+ years of online discussions, it sure seems like deeper and more meaningful discussions take place within the purview of respectful dialogue than from a "free-for-all." As an aside, perhaps, when I do take moderator action, it is usually due to the tone being employed becoming disrespectful -- not due to the humor, disagreements, and/or the differing opinions presented within the posts. The latter are welcome; the former, not so much.

Back to nursing an ill server (bad sectors within a RAID-6, ugh)...

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
 
Old 04-20-2011, 11:02 PM   #6
David Orange
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
... being a clique of one that almost makes us partners.
There have been studies on that subject.

You team up with Tony and next thing you know, it'll be a gang.

You don't want to belong to a gang.

But if you're a "clique of one," that makes you a loner. You don't want to be a loner, either. You get a bad rep. Everyone thinks you're up to something. "He's a loner," they say, and look at one another meaningfully.

So maybe you try joining up with some organization. But little by little you notice odd things about it: the group marriages, the signing over of worldly possessions, the sad eagerness of the other members when they talk about the great spaceship that's coming to rescue you all....and you realize...you're in a cult.

You don't want to be in cult, either. They have bad reputations, too. Because, basically, a cult is just a gang, founded by a loner. And there's no way you can win with that.

I'm afraid, in the future, we'll all just have to wear burqua-like covers over our faces just so people won't speculate whether we're loners or gang members. They won't know who we are. Just like everyone else.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 04-20-2011, 11:20 PM   #7
David Orange
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hzgzim5m7oU

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 04-21-2011, 01:08 AM   #8
Dave de Vos
 
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

I think forum members should avoid insulting other forum members.

The hard part is that what one person perceives as honesty and humour, is perceived as an insult by another. And what one person perceives as respectful, is perceived as hypocrisy by another. This perception depends on personal and cultural attributes of a person.

I don't think it is cliques. I think it is just groups of people that happen to have a similar perception in these cases because of similarities in personal and cultural background. I remember George S. Ledyard explaining this in terms of east coast versus west coast. I can see the same thing comparing big city culture and countryside culture.

I like humour (britisch humour is even a favourite of mine), but IMHO it crossed the insult boundary when one makes fun of other members or a generalization of other members. If members keep doing it, the forum will degrade.

Last edited by Dave de Vos : 04-21-2011 at 01:11 AM.
 
Old 04-21-2011, 01:57 AM   #9
aikishihan
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Is Aiki Web an Open Forum?

No. It is essentially a gift to the Aiki world from a private party, who has wisely and appropriately set guidelines and conditions for its accessibility and its usage by the public. It is the creation and inspiration of one Jun Akiyama, who deserves immense respect and gratitude for granting us this opportunity to share online, our most profound observations, along with our most frivolous and inane misconceptions of what we all profess to love, Ueshiba Aikido.

Per Wikipedia, an “open forum” is essentially synonymous with a “public forum”, being open to all expressions while protected by the First Amendment. Since most public forums are monitored and scrutinized by our Federal Government in one form or another, this definition certainly does not apply to the phenomenon we know as “Aiki Web”. Rather, it is a labor of love by one inspired and talented individual, and remains predominantly his to do with as he wills, with all due respect to laws and customs not withstanding.

Since it is a forum open to the public, all manner of visitors may be observed there. If some appear “cliquish”, so what. If some betray deep seated opinions on certain topics, bravo for them. If the majority choose to remain silent and aloof from the fray of verbal jousting, this is not necessarily proof of disinterest or disdain, nor even of tacit approval of all that is presented. If certain individuals choose to disrespect or dishonor the intent of this forum, consequences should and do apply. Grow up already!

It is not necessary or reasonable to react or respond to every post. I reserve the option of which conversations to join, and which ones to leave alone. Even the responses I gratefully receive from what I may write, do not define me in any way, regardless of positive or negative content. I appreciate it all, even the responses or rejoinders that I will never receive.

I remain grateful to Aiki Web, its founder, the magnificent array of masterful writers who post, and to the greater supportive public that makes it all worth much more than I could ever invest in it. To date, it is one of the greatest privileges I have ever received to be a part of such an open and welcoming activity. Thank you Jun!

An open forum? Nah, I simply want this forum to stay open for a very long time.

Last edited by aikishihan : 04-21-2011 at 02:03 AM.
 
Old 04-21-2011, 03:12 AM   #10
carina reinhardt
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

I think it is an open forum where everybody can give his honest opinion and a constructive contribution referring to the topic.
Our performance showes our education.If we were in a live discussion among people not known in person, we would be respectful to each other.It is easier to criticize in writing than to tell the same thing viewing the person face to face, but our behaviour should be the same.
Finally I'd like to thank Jun for his excellent work during the years, please keep the forum in the same form it is great.
 
Old 04-21-2011, 04:01 AM   #11
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
There have been studies on that subject.

You team up with Tony and next thing you know, it'll be a gang.

You don't want to belong to a gang.

But if you're a "clique of one," that makes you a loner. You don't want to be a loner, either. You get a bad rep. Everyone thinks you're up to something. "He's a loner," they say, and look at one another meaningfully.

So maybe you try joining up with some organization. But little by little you notice odd things about it: the group marriages, the signing over of worldly possessions, the sad eagerness of the other members when they talk about the great spaceship that's coming to rescue you all....and you realize...you're in a cult.

You don't want to be in cult, either. They have bad reputations, too. Because, basically, a cult is just a gang, founded by a loner. And there's no way you can win with that.

I'm afraid, in the future, we'll all just have to wear burqua-like covers over our faces just so people won't speculate whether we're loners or gang members. They won't know who we are. Just like everyone else.

David
David, and to all here......, Those that have sussed me, have sussed me, and in some ways actually like what I have to say. I did in the beginning say that I am rather blunt, matter of fact and will say things that maybe those of sensitive sensitivities may not like, but even as George L who has pointed out.... why don't you click the ignore button?
I'm just being the real me, no gang, no BS, no hidden agenda.... Excuse my ignorance, but I just cannot see where some of you are coming from at times, they ramble on about the in and outs of such and such without getting to the point, or eventually arrive there after much rear wind.
I am now getting to the point that "aikido" as a "martial" art is degenerating more into martial "fart"
I can see to some extent that it is most likely that most do it for health as they get older, and that is to me acceptable, but it's the young ones coming in that should be practising "hard" so that they are able to understand the "soft" This is what is worrying me about the state of aikido, because believe me most other MA or those of other persuasion think we are a laughing stock and who can blame them...?
What amazes me is that they then wonder why their "aikido" does not work to protect them, that is a shame for aikido, but most hide behind the word "aikido" because in reality they cannot produce the goods. Within one year of doing "aikido" I was able and reasonably good at protecting myself, even more so now after all these years. Maybe a tad slower than I used to be, but the feet don't go as fast as they used to, but I will still teach it as an art of self defence, as realistically as possible......
I will also teach it for health, if required, but will make no bones about the fact it will not work if one "thinks" to use the health approach in a possible attack on ones person. That, I make abundantly clear as it would be a terrible lie to do otherwise.
I really get the impression that maybe some of you are still under that illusion and still need a reality check from time to time.
If you are, please get real as I will repeat, and will keep repeating that you are not doing "aikido" you are doing martial dance and that is all there is to it.....

Regards to all

Tony
 
Old 04-21-2011, 04:23 AM   #12
Hellis
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Hi Tony

Welcome back. I am not so sure about a `clique ` but there are a few ` klingons ` that are probably already doing a " Dear Jun ".

I was impressed at what I saw as your effort at rehabilitation by collecting Grahmas videos set, will this affect your teaching styles in a positive or negative way ?

Henry Ellis
Aikido Articles
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Old 04-21-2011, 04:54 AM   #13
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Hi Tony

Welcome back. I am not so sure about a `clique ` but there are a few ` klingons ` that are probably already doing a " Dear Jun ".

I was impressed at what I saw as your effort at rehabilitation by collecting Grahmas videos set, will this affect your teaching styles in a positive or negative way ?

Henry Ellis
Aikido Articles
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
I think Graham is probably alright as a bloke, as you say, but as for his "aikido" videos? Well, what can I say? It boggles the mind?...... If Graham is reading this put the kettle on for a cup of rosy lea' I'm sure you are very capable at doing that.....
 
Old 04-21-2011, 05:24 AM   #14
Nicholas Eschenbruch
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

When someone is - hypothetically speaking - totally enamoured with their self-image as the lone authentic desperado, cliques turn against them all the time... Would'nt the desperados be bored and disappointed if it were any different

And of course there is social structure on any forum. Anything else would really be quite surprising.
 
Old 04-21-2011, 08:03 AM   #15
lbb
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

What do you call it when two or three individuals commonly turn threads into their private chit-chat? Is that a clique?
 
Old 04-21-2011, 08:11 AM   #16
Marc Abrams
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Tony:

There are many different groups of Aikidoka and other martial artists from a variety of disciplines who both frequent and participate on the Aikiweb forum. Jun has done a remarkably good job in managing this forum. He has set parameters governing the nature of discussions. He moderates in a manner that he believes is as in impartial and as fair as possible. You obviously believe otherwise, but your position stands in marked contrast to the larger reality of the forum.

If you feel so slighted, then why do you still frequent the forum? Why don't you create your own? Personally speaking, you claim very little ownership for the predicament that you place yourself in. What you call humor is frequently thinly veiled disdain for positions other than your own. If no one has told you, please allow me to be the first one to tell you that humor works best amongst friends (as opposed to people whom you disagree with their positions on things). You are anything but open-minded. When people have graciously provided you with opportunities to experience something potentially different, valid and martial, you either respond by saying that it is nonsense or you already do it.

Using your own tongue-in-cheek descriptor from another thread, the effluent neighborhood that is your life has been and is your own creation. Your complaints about the stink around you has more to do with the world that you created for yourself and how you see it, than is really out there. A small clue to this larger reality can be seen in that you can acknowledge some "common ground" with the likes of Ledyard Sensei and Dan Harden.

Instead of seeking some self-reflection and personal change during your time-out from this forum, you seem to have accumulated a lot of frustration and anger and you are now expressing in your posts directed at everybody accept yourself.

Marc Abrams
 
Old 04-21-2011, 08:18 AM   #17
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Tony:

There are many different groups of Aikidoka and other martial artists from a variety of disciplines who both frequent and participate on the Aikiweb forum. Jun has done a remarkably good job in managing this forum. He has set parameters governing the nature of discussions. He moderates in a manner that he believes is as in impartial and as fair as possible. You obviously believe otherwise, but your position stands in marked contrast to the larger reality of the forum.

If you feel so slighted, then why do you still frequent the forum? Why don't you create your own? Personally speaking, you claim very little ownership for the predicament that you place yourself in. What you call humor is frequently thinly veiled disdain for positions other than your own. If no one has told you, please allow me to be the first one to tell you that humor works best amongst friends (as opposed to people whom you disagree with their positions on things). You are anything but open-minded. When people have graciously provided you with opportunities to experience something potentially different, valid and martial, you either respond by saying that it is nonsense or you already do it.

Using your own tongue-in-cheek descriptor from another thread, the effluent neighborhood that is your life has been and is your own creation. Your complaints about the stink around you has more to do with the world that you created for yourself and how you see it, than is really out there. A small clue to this larger reality can be seen in that you can acknowledge some "common ground" with the likes of Ledyard Sensei and Dan Harden.

Instead of seeking some self-reflection and personal change during your time-out from this forum, you seem to have accumulated a lot of frustration and anger and you are now expressing in your posts directed at everybody accept yourself.

Marc Abrams
That is exactly what I expected from you you Marc, but then again should I expect any different? The "clique" in action.....?
 
Old 04-21-2011, 08:20 AM   #18
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Quote:
Nicholas Eschenbruch wrote: View Post
When someone is - hypothetically speaking - totally enamoured with their self-image as the lone authentic desperado, cliques turn against them all the time... Would'nt the desperados be bored and disappointed if it were any different

And of course there is social structure on any forum. Anything else would really be quite surprising.
Are you sure that is social structure as opposed to social snobbery?
 
Old 04-21-2011, 08:22 AM   #19
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
What do you call it when two or three individuals commonly turn threads into their private chit-chat? Is that a clique?
I thought private messaging was for that? But then again I'm a very open sort of chappy.....
 
Old 04-21-2011, 08:30 AM   #20
Marc Abrams
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
That is exactly what I expected from you you Marc, but then again should I expect any different? The "clique" in action.....?
Tony:

What clique? I belong to an independent, Aikido organization that has no official affiliation with Jun, Ledyard Sensei, Dan Harden, etc.. Your position has no basis in reality. It is once again, you, nobody else but you, avoiding personal responsibility for the positions you take and the consequences that result from them.

Back to the topic of the thread that you started..... This forum is open to discussion from many different viewpoints. Frank discourse takes place. Jun insists that it is done within respectful bounds. If you want to call that an open forum, fine, if not, fine. Your failure to abide by Jun's guidelines is simply your failure. Trying to blame it on some non-existent "cliques" speaks for itself.

Marc Abrams
 
Old 04-21-2011, 08:49 AM   #21
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I don't think it's "clique-y." I think the biggest issue I've seen here has more to do with personality clashes and differences in social norms than going against some clique(s). This is a matter of conventions of communication. If I spoke here the way I speak to my friends I would be banned. The "California Howdy" is a standard greeting for my oldest friends; we regularly insult the hell out of each other, but I would never talk that way to other groups of friends because they would be insulted, no matter how long I explained that they were just jokes. It's a similar issue here I think.
I think some of your language here is a little loaded. Note how you describe ribbing as harmless while the responses to it are childish and animal-like. It's all harmless: it's all words here. The question isn't "who's on what team," it's, "what are the accepted norms and how can we respect the other while holding true to our own values." Where the two cannot meet we have to simply agree to disagree.
...My tupence.
Take care,
Matt
Do you mean over sensitivity Matt? I suppose it's like somebody that takes their "painting" to the Louvre in Paris, thinking it's really wonderful only to find out that nobody is bothering to look at it and wondering why? He/she overhears a conversation amongst some art critics who are saying that this not art, it is rubbish.... Whisperings in the back ground upset the the painter..... but alas he/she is not deterred.....Anyways a little while later some "common" folk come along and are all looking at it ooohing and aaaghing saying what a lovely interesting painting it is having no idea as to what "art" is suppose to be all about? They move on to the next painting which is by Picasso and they all say "Blimey my kid could do better than that"
The "Art critics" are disgusted at the "common people" and turn their noses up in horror because these "common people" can't see where the "art" is?

I suppose the simplicity is in the way I think and see as it all is far too obvious, it is just like those "common" people as it is too much to bear for these "art critiques" so they turn their noses up at it and remain in their clique as the art critiques, but are unable to paint or do a work of art themselves.....

Close?

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 04-21-2011 at 08:51 AM.
 
Old 04-21-2011, 08:57 AM   #22
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Tony:

What clique? I belong to an independent, Aikido organization that has no official affiliation with Jun, Ledyard Sensei, Dan Harden, etc.. Your position has no basis in reality. It is once again, you, nobody else but you, avoiding personal responsibility for the positions you take and the consequences that result from them.

Back to the topic of the thread that you started..... This forum is open to discussion from many different viewpoints. Frank discourse takes place. Jun insists that it is done within respectful bounds. If you want to call that an open forum, fine, if not, fine. Your failure to abide by Jun's guidelines is simply your failure. Trying to blame it on some non-existent "cliques" speaks for itself.

Marc Abrams
Happy slap on the back chappies? I can see through you like glass Marc...... I'm not the one disguising their disgust so thinly veiled.....
Have I actually insulted you yet? Methinks not , but you are very, very sensitive, now that is obvious..... I really wonder why?
 
Old 04-21-2011, 09:08 AM   #23
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
I think forum members should avoid insulting other forum members.

The hard part is that what one person perceives as honesty and humour, is perceived as an insult by another. And what one person perceives as respectful, is perceived as hypocrisy by another. This perception depends on personal and cultural attributes of a person.
The best way I've found to deal with people both online and in real life, is to only react to what I perceive as an insult if it's directed to me. And the most effective reaction so far seem to be to just say "I think that's insulting.". Usually if the other person didn't actually mean to be insulting, they tell me so, and all's well again. If they did in fact mean to be insulting, well, now they know that they succeeded and I know that they're a person I don't want to waste my time on.

If the remark wasn't actually directed at me, I wouldn't be surprised to get a response of "what's it to you" or something along those lines. So I leave it to other people to respond to insults that are directed at them.

In my experience trying to teach other people or somehow influence how they behave online is futile. I wish people would just stop doing it, but of course I can't make anyone do that either.

Pauliina
 
Old 04-21-2011, 09:10 AM   #24
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Pauliina: so you're okay with always sitting by and saying nothing while someone else is attacked?
 
Old 04-21-2011, 09:15 AM   #25
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Online, among adults, yes. An "attack" online is just words. I expect adults to be able to survive that.

If a kid is bullied online that would be a different situation.

Pauliina
 

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