Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Weapons

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-09-2011, 07:08 PM   #51
Lyle Laizure
 
Lyle Laizure's Avatar
Dojo: Hinode Dojo LLC
Location: Omaha, Nebraska
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 560
United_States
Offline
Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
So true.

Anyone know who started the rumour it was "not aikido" to hit, kick, stab or punch an attacker?

Stupid me, probably the same who believes their is no pain involved in proper or proficient taisabaki/kuzushi...just a guess:Mickey
Well said.

Lyle Laizure
www.hinodedojo.com
Deru kugi wa uta reru
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2011, 07:50 PM   #52
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,633
Offline
Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
So true.

Anyone know who started the rumour it was "not aikido" to hit, kick, stab or punch an attacker?

Stupid me, probably the same who believes their is no pain involved in proper or proficient taisabaki/kuzushi...just a guess

Train well,

Mickey
Two comments here...

1) what typically separates the disarms in Aikido from the disarms in the Asian blade systems is the amount of impact, or what we would call atemi, that precedes the actual disarming technique. In Kali / Silat typically there has been an eye flick, followed by one or more strikes (elbows, knees, etc.), the, if it presents itself, the strip.

Dan Inosanto once told one of my friends that he didn't like to teach the stripping techniques to students too early because once you taught them, the students started to try to get them. His point was the the disarms and stripping techniques should be an integral part of the striking pattern, not a separate technique. The moment you start going for the disarm rather than striking the center, you are open.

I trained for a couple years off and on with Chris Petrilli, Canete's senior American student in Doces Pares escrima. Their system is a blend of Escrima and Aikido. If you want to see Aikido done in full combat mode, these guys have a great take on it. By the time you see a disarm or a throw, the attacker is more than half dismantled by the impact techniques utilized.

In my own Defensive Tactics system, our basic program called for an entry and two to three solid impact techniques before you even thought about going for the disarm. This is my great objection to much of the weapons disarming training, not limited to Aikido. There simply isn't enough impact technique involved.

2) The statement about kuzushi and pain. If your technique is working because of pain, anyone who doesn't care if it hurts, if they don't feel pain at the time, whatever, they'll beat it.

Kuzushi should be something they don't even feel coming.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2011, 11:39 PM   #53
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
Location: Oceanside, California
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,129
Offline
Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Joe,
There was nothing apparent about my lack of comprehension. You use slang that I think I understand, but don't want to make that assumption. "A bit shirty", "pulling my pl....r", "working his ticket", "bit of a mug" were all beyond my experience. I took from context that you meant he was becoming confrontational, actually only joking, becoming a bully, and beheld you as an easy victim.

We have our own little phrases as well and our cousins across the pond can sometimes be equally bewildered. For example, we don't have ex-Marines. Ours are always Marines whether currently serving or having formerly served.

Unfortunately I am culturally stilted and the only rapper I understand is Kid Rock and that isn't a constant.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2011, 12:23 AM   #54
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,141
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
Joe,
There was nothing apparent about my lack of comprehension. You use slang that I think I understand, but don't want to make that assumption. "A bit shirty", "pulling my pl....r", "working his ticket", "bit of a mug" were all beyond my experience. I took from context that you meant he was becoming confrontational, actually only joking, becoming a bully, and beheld you as an easy victim.

We have our own little phrases as well and our cousins across the pond can sometimes be equally bewildered. For example, we don't have ex-Marines. Ours are always Marines whether currently serving or having formerly served.

Unfortunately I am culturally stilted and the only rapper I understand is Kid Rock and that isn't a constant.
Dear Michael,
You are correct in respect of the meaning of slang phrases I used. I am sure I would get the drift of any U.S.A. phrase [having been in your fair country loads of times].
Regarding the Marines , thanks for the clarification.My U.S.A.
aikido colleague would be by your definition a formerly served member of the service.
In respect of rap , I am also culturally stilted in this department.
I am more a Roy Orbison , Elvis fan.Hope we can bridge the lanquage barrier!! I also hope you are well. Good to hear from you,
All the best , Joe
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2011, 12:37 PM   #55
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
Location: Oceanside, California
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,129
Offline
Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Joe,

Where I really get lost is when you folks start with the Cockney word substitution. I get lorry and lift, even bangers and mash, but am totally lost when you guys start in with the poetic rhymes. I'm left without a clue - or would that be something like "doubts in glue"?

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2011, 03:39 AM   #56
Michael Varin
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 567
United_States
Offline
Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
George Ledyard wrote:
1) what typically separates the disarms in Aikido from the disarms in the Asian blade systems is the amount of impact, or what we would call atemi, that precedes the actual disarming technique. In Kali / Silat typically there has been an eye flick, followed by one or more strikes (elbows, knees, etc.), the, if it presents itself, the strip.

Dan Inosanto once told one of my friends that he didn't like to teach the stripping techniques to students too early because once you taught them, the students started to try to get them. His point was the the disarms and stripping techniques should be an integral part of the striking pattern, not a separate technique. The moment you start going for the disarm rather than striking the center, you are open.

I trained for a couple years off and on with Chris Petrilli, Canete's senior American student in Doces Pares escrima. Their system is a blend of Escrima and Aikido. If you want to see Aikido done in full combat mode, these guys have a great take on it. By the time you see a disarm or a throw, the attacker is more than half dismantled by the impact techniques utilized.

In my own Defensive Tactics system, our basic program called for an entry and two to three solid impact techniques before you even thought about going for the disarm. This is my great objection to much of the weapons disarming training, not limited to Aikido. There simply isn't enough impact technique involved.
Frankly, this too is a little unrealistic.

The whole area of "knife disarming" is so infected with dogmatic beliefs that I doubt anyone has a clear view of it.

If someone is armed with a knife, and you attempt to strike them to "soften them up," you will likely not be pleased with the results if they are content to cut whatever you throw out there.

One punch knockouts aside, if you attack someone who is armed with an edged weapon with empty-hand strikes, I would say that you do not understand the nature of the advantage a blade gives a man.

Atemi has a role, but the over-emphasis on atemi in these situations does not reflect the wisest of strategies.

Ultimately, we must learn all the techniques and tactics that we can, then let our intuition and judgment guide us in any given situation… That's where the "art" comes in.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2011, 07:54 AM   #57
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 959
United_States
Offline
Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
If someone is armed with a knife, and you attempt to strike them to "soften them up," you will likely not be pleased with the results if they are content to cut whatever you throw out there.
I wouldn't at all mind it if a knife-wielding attacker stabbed the brick I picked up to hit him with. In fact, I encourage such behavior.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2011, 04:53 PM   #58
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

I have been following this thread interested in where it would lead to.

This is because, as most of you will have experienced some time or other, that when some people find you do a martial art there's always someone with a 'what if I did this or what if I did that.'

The thing that use to bug me was things like someone with a knife or metal bar etc. especially when they would say 'how would you harmonize with this then?'

I finally found out what bugged me when I realized it was the unfairness of the question. Implicit in those type of questions is the scene that you have to do a nice flowing move without harming or hurting them whilst their rules can be different.

I say this because when talking about imaginary knife attacks the first thing to realize is you need a specific attitude of mind to handle them, one that can only be gained in Aikido by sword practice. From that viewpoint I would say that Aikido is very well equipped for that, depending on the level of practitioner and not forgetting the level of competance of the knife wielder.

Once again from my view I emphasize certain principles and states of being over any thought of technique.

When practicing, or rather teaching the sword I do not emphasize the cutting through etc. for the student. I emphasize only that they learn to cut through where they are meant to, be it slow or med or fast. However more important than that is I train them to face a bokken.

Now I will show them what I am going to do and proceed to do it, slowly at first, whether they have a bokken in hand or empty handed. Now here's the thing: If their mind is taken by the weapon-they get hit. If they move too early- they get hit. If they move too late- they get hit. If they try to attack the weapon- they get hit. If they move out or jump away they get followed and hit.

This discipline extant in Aikido is to develope a certain state of mind for use in similar cicumstances in life. The reality being two basic things really. To learn how to in those circumstances enter and take out. One, two. Even though this is quite a stage of competance to reach it is only by being eventually comfortable with that that the practitioner can afford to be more lenient with the aggressor, thus stages on the way to harmony.

So putting a situation of someone not very comfortable or even experienced at that level of Aikido versus a knife is not very wise. So the question is more to do with level of practitioner of Aikido rather than can Aikido do this or that.

Just some of the things to develope first include:

1) To be able to focus on the source, the person holding the blade, unfazed by the movement of the weapon.

2) To at the same time have zanshin which is totally aware of every movement of the weapon yet still with calmness and clear mind.

3) To be thoroughly aware of maai at all times, nothing to do with the eyes.

4) To know that as soon as maai is breached you must already be entering without hesitation.

5) To know your destination which is straight through the opponent.

These are just some things which need developing first before you can 'see' the center line which makes the knife look like a pendulum of a clock so to speak. Some will know what I mean by that.

A lot involved, even more than I have stated yet there is a lot involved in Aikido. Thus the demonstrations seen should be looked upon in the correct light as a phase of learning rather than representing real battle.

Add on to that this is only my take on the subject so it doesn't come across as a lecture.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2011, 03:16 PM   #59
Fred Little
Dojo: NJIT Budokai
Location: State Line NJ/NY
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 612
United_States
Offline
Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Having dipped into this thread with various degrees of astonishment, disbelief, bemusement, and what-have-you, I remained silent.

Then a current student told me about being attacked by someone with a knife in Orange, NJ late last week. Maybe it's irrelevant since he didn't bother to take the knife away, but the bottom line is that everybody walked away uncut, and that's quite enough for me.

FL

  Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2011, 09:08 PM   #60
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,108
United_States
Offline
Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Fred Little wrote: View Post
Having dipped into this thread with various degrees of astonishment, disbelief, bemusement, and what-have-you, I remained silent.

Then a current student told me about being attacked by someone with a knife in Orange, NJ late last week. Maybe it's irrelevant since he didn't bother to take the knife away, but the bottom line is that everybody walked away uncut, and that's quite enough for me.

FL
Amen to that!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2011, 03:38 AM   #61
Michael Varin
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 567
United_States
Offline
Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Fred Little wrote:
Then a current student told me about being attacked by someone with a knife in Orange, NJ late last week. Maybe it's irrelevant since he didn't bother to take the knife away, but the bottom line is that everybody walked away uncut, and that's quite enough for me.
How is that possible? Great, knowledgeable instructors have told us that that cannot be done.

Quote:
He made the statement that martial artists have an advantage over the average person when confronted with a knife, but they could also count on one of two consequences when defending unarmed: they will die or be seriously injured.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2011, 03:46 AM   #62
Michael Varin
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 567
United_States
Offline
Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote:
I wouldn't at all mind it if a knife-wielding attacker stabbed the brick I picked up to hit him with. In fact, I encourage such behavior.
I think you know that took my statement out of context as I was clearly talking about empty hand strikes, but let's use this as an opportunity.

As I said, some posters did not seem to understand or appreciate the nature of the advantage an edged weapon affords.

A brick definitely increases your chances of a one hit KO, but barring that, would you want to trade blows brick vs. knife? Who wins the battle of attrition?

The knife is a superior weapon; therefore you must overcome it with superior tactics.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2011, 08:46 AM   #63
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 959
United_States
Offline
Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
I think you know that took my statement out of context as I was clearly talking about empty hand strikes, but let's use this as an opportunity.

As I said, some posters did not seem to understand or appreciate the nature of the advantage an edged weapon affords.

A brick definitely increases your chances of a one hit KO, but barring that, would you want to trade blows brick vs. knife? Who wins the battle of attrition?

The knife is a superior weapon; therefore you must overcome it with superior tactics.
I apologize for being flippant. Do you have any tactics you would like to discuss? George gave a brief description of a reasonable tactic - delivering a few aggressive strikes to a knife-wielding attacker before worrying about stripping the knife - which was part of a training product he had created for law enforcement and security personnel. You refuted it off-hand without really offering anything in response, and furthermore didn't seem to understand what he was talking about.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2011, 09:30 AM   #64
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Go and see Jon & Mickey.....
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2011, 09:59 AM   #65
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
I think you know that took my statement out of context as I was clearly talking about empty hand strikes, but let's use this as an opportunity.

As I said, some posters did not seem to understand or appreciate the nature of the advantage an edged weapon affords.

A brick definitely increases your chances of a one hit KO, but barring that, would you want to trade blows brick vs. knife? Who wins the battle of attrition?

The knife is a superior weapon; therefore you must overcome it with superior tactics.
Preferably a dustbin lid if available, trouble is they are like coppers......

Wheelie bins are bloody useless....!!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2011, 10:08 AM   #66
Chris Covington
 
Chris Covington's Avatar
Location: Baltimore, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 73
United_States
Offline
Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Hey Cliff et al,

Have they been talking about my secret art of Brick-fu in the Hobyokan? I made them all sign a keppan!

Joking aside when people who don't do martial arts ask me what I would do if someone did this or that I usually say pick up a brick and beat them upside the head with it and then run. This gets all kinds of shocked looks because they'd expect me to say something about crane kicks or an MMA move etc. In some ways it is a lot like people who say jo/bo techniques are practical because you can pick up a stick, broom, etc. and use it if you needed to. You can find a broom or long stick anywhere right? Has anyone looked around while they walk down the street for makeshift weapons that you could deploy almost instantly in a situation? There aren't any! Walking my dog (mine is a 15 lbs pekingese... girlfriend's dog is an 80lbs lab-pitbull mix) down my street the other day I really started to think about this. All of the front yards in my neighborhood are fenced off. My best bet would be MAYBE someone has a garden gnome I could reach over and grab. But then how much time would I really have to start reaching into someone's yard before being stabbed, shot or otherwise assaulted?

So this brings be to the 2nd half of my art of brick-fu since I won't likely find a brick lying about: RUN! I think too many people become "what-if warriors" and too many martial arts cater to that. "What if I'm in a dead end alley and can't run and I HAVE to fight them what do I do?" "Oh you do this that and the other moves blah blah blah." Why did you go down a dark deadend alley? It doesn't make sense. Budo should be a heiho and going down a dead end alley or really any alley is not a smart move. Poor heiho. Go to the place with more people, stay on well lit main streets, have some knowledge of where you are even if you only mapquest the area before you go to a new place. Avoid trouble areas and hot spots, look for broken windows in an area and realize that you might want to turn around. Most of us have no reason to be in nasty neighborhoods. First rule of surviving Zombieland (or Knifeworld) is cardio. Another good one: when in doubt know your way out.

Sorry for the rant. Just some thoughts I've been stewing with.

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I wouldn't at all mind it if a knife-wielding attacker stabbed the brick I picked up to hit him with. In fact, I encourage such behavior.

Last edited by Chris Covington : 04-19-2011 at 10:11 AM.

Chris Covington
Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu kenjutsu
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2011, 10:13 AM   #67
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 959
United_States
Offline
Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Chris Covington wrote: View Post
Go to the place with more people, stay on well lit main streets, have some knowledge of where you are even if you only mapquest the area before you go to a new place. Avoid trouble areas and hot spots, look for broken windows in an area and realize that you might want to turn around. Most of us have no reason to be in nasty neighborhoods. First rule of surviving Zombieland (or Knifeworld) is cardio. Another good one: when in doubt know your way out.

Sorry for the rant. Just some thoughts I've been stewing with.
Right on, Chris.

I make it a point to be the scariest / sketchiest person in my neighborhood. I figure if I get mugged by myself, I will have only myself to blame.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2011, 10:33 AM   #68
Chris Covington
 
Chris Covington's Avatar
Location: Baltimore, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 73
United_States
Offline
Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Right on, Chris.

I make it a point to be the scariest / sketchiest person in my neighborhood. I figure if I get mugged by myself, I will have only myself to blame.
You live in Columbia dude, you might actually be the sketchiest person there. When guys like me Arman and Brian show up to places like that they call the National Guard.

Chris Covington
Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu kenjutsu
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2011, 07:11 PM   #69
KaliGman
Dojo: Warren Budokan
Location: Youngstown, Ohio
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 36
United_States
Offline
Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Two comments here...

1) what typically separates the disarms in Aikido from the disarms in the Asian blade systems is the amount of impact, or what we would call atemi, that precedes the actual disarming technique. In Kali / Silat typically there has been an eye flick, followed by one or more strikes (elbows, knees, etc.), the, if it presents itself, the strip.

Dan Inosanto once told one of my friends that he didn't like to teach the stripping techniques to students too early because once you taught them, the students started to try to get them. His point was the the disarms and stripping techniques should be an integral part of the striking pattern, not a separate technique. The moment you start going for the disarm rather than striking the center, you are open.

I trained for a couple years off and on with Chris Petrilli, Canete's senior American student in Doces Pares escrima. Their system is a blend of Escrima and Aikido. If you want to see Aikido done in full combat mode, these guys have a great take on it. By the time you see a disarm or a throw, the attacker is more than half dismantled by the impact techniques utilized.

In my own Defensive Tactics system, our basic program called for an entry and two to three solid impact techniques before you even thought about going for the disarm. This is my great objection to much of the weapons disarming training, not limited to Aikido. There simply isn't enough impact technique involved.

2) The statement about kuzushi and pain. If your technique is working because of pain, anyone who doesn't care if it hurts, if they don't feel pain at the time, whatever, they'll beat it.

Kuzushi should be something they don't even feel coming.
George,

I agree with some of what you are saying, but there is some error as well. For one thing, there is no "typical" disarm in the silat or kali/escrima systems, just as there is no "typical" disarm in the aikido systems. Since there are hundreds of styles of silat alone, "typical" is rather hard to define. Secondly, eye flicks are not normally the first technique in a disarm, as you would be defanging the snake and hitting/controlling/destroying the weapon bearing limb on your entry, and, if you can rake the eyes, you have already entered. Those who enter without trying to do something to the blade bearing limb first we generally call "dead men." You are correct, though, in saying that the strip is incidental. In reality, disarms only sometimes present themselves. In real fighting, as I tell my students when I hold up a knife and wave my arm, "The best disarm is when 'dis arm right here does not work anymore." Limb destructions are the norm in many of the Southeast Asian combat systems. Going against a knife armed attacker is extremely dangerous and going against one unarmed is not something that anyone should take lightly or really want to do at all. If you have to do it, though, since the attacker is using lethal force on you, you are generally best served with rendering his weapon arm unusable, and/or rendering him incapable of any aggressive movement (through injury, unconsciousness, death, etc.). You have to be extraordinarily good and very, very lucky to be able to do the "put the guy down without hurting him thing." Generally, you just get cut up if you try, at least from what I have seen in full contact sparring with training blades and in actual attacks with the blade. This brings me to you discussing Mickey's statement on kuzushi. You actually are both correct, since I think you are talking at cross purposes. You are absolutely correct in your definition of pure kuzushi. However, Mickey was talking in this instance about the blade environment, and usually, when he posts, he is posting from a realistic combat perspective, and one where he has survived multiple lethal force encounters as a police officer. In a blade confrontation, as Mickey trains with me and well knows that arm destructions are often the norm when attempting to minimize injury to oneself and control the attacker's blade, he was merely stating that there is going to be pain during the balance disruption (or whenever the attacker comes off his recreational pharmaceutical or adrenaline induced high), because the balance disruption is most likely to occur at the point in time when the attacking limb is destroyed. Broken bones, torn cartilage, and ripped tendons and ligaments hurt. From personal experience I can say that sometimes they don't hurt immediately, but the pain does kick in at some point or other and the connection to center and the damage inflicted sure plays holy hell with your balance if it is done right. Mickey is good at getting kuzushi, and can do it without hurting people. When the fight is for real, though, and his safety is at stake, he, like I, will be taking balance while destroying connective tissue and bones, so we can be sure that our opponent stays down. Just as "shoot to stop" is the mantra in law enforcement firearms training, "hit/throw/etc. to stop" is our mantra when it comes to an empty hand, impact weapon, or blade encounter where we start out unarmed and have to deal with a serious threat of injury or death.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2011, 07:15 PM   #70
KaliGman
Dojo: Warren Budokan
Location: Youngstown, Ohio
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 36
United_States
Offline
Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
How is that possible? Great, knowledgeable instructors have told us that that cannot be done.
People win the lottery too, but if you are planning your retirement around a winning lottery ticket rather than saving and investing, then I wish you the best of luck. If you are planning to subdue experienced knife-wielding thugs with the standard unarmed "dojo defenses" most practice, then I recommend you just buy the lottery ticket and plan to retire to Tahiti, as you will probably have better odds of success with that than with the knife fighting.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2011, 07:32 PM   #71
KaliGman
Dojo: Warren Budokan
Location: Youngstown, Ohio
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 36
United_States
Offline
Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Frankly, this too is a little unrealistic.

The whole area of "knife disarming" is so infected with dogmatic beliefs that I doubt anyone has a clear view of it.

If someone is armed with a knife, and you attempt to strike them to "soften them up," you will likely not be pleased with the results if they are content to cut whatever you throw out there.

One punch knockouts aside, if you attack someone who is armed with an edged weapon with empty-hand strikes, I would say that you do not understand the nature of the advantage a blade gives a man.

Atemi has a role, but the over-emphasis on atemi in these situations does not reflect the wisest of strategies.

Ultimately, we must learn all the techniques and tactics that we can, then let our intuition and judgment guide us in any given situation… That's where the "art" comes in.
Well, the most realistic thing is, when people attack with knives, you respond with lethal force. Disarms sometimes present themselves. Destructions of the limb are usually easier to accomplish and safer for the defender to use. George is quite correct in saying striking is important. I do believe, in this instance, that he and I are on the same page. This strategy is not easy and is not for everyone. I am not concerned with ''average" or "good enough", but with excellence. If you have put in the time and training to divorce your hands and feet so they can move independently, then you are able to conduct the footwork necessary to enter, while striking the attacker's arm, then sticking and bridging it across his body, simultaneously using the other arm to strike for the head or other target on the center line of the attacker. The entering footwork comes in at an angle and slams into the inside thigh of the opponent while all this is going on and turns his pelvis, taking balance. The defender's hands continue to move, hit, break, twist and do nasty things to the bad guy, generally several attacks per second. Generally, an elbow or shoulder of the bad guy gives way, a takedown presents itself or a potentially lethal targeting area opens up and is engaged. This can be done reliably under stress with the correct training. As for not knowing and dogmatic---maybe. But then, I have sparred full-contact, knife against knife, empty hand against knife, etc. for years, have faced knives in a few lethal force encounters in my years of law enforcement, and have only received a relatively minor cut or two. Really, unless you have spent an awful lot of time doing blade on blade sparring and working with the knife in a system that teaches blade combat, you probably are not going to be very good against the knife. I am sure that there are exceptions to this, but I have yet to meet one.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2011, 07:39 PM   #72
KaliGman
Dojo: Warren Budokan
Location: Youngstown, Ohio
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 36
United_States
Offline
Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Go and see Jon & Mickey.....
Come on Tony, that would not be as fun as talking theory on the Internet. I have been known to tip over a few sacred cows when people train with me and, if in a particularly grumpy mood, to grind those cows up into tasty burgers. .
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2011, 12:04 AM   #73
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,633
Offline
Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Jon Holloway wrote: View Post
George,

I agree with some of what you are saying, but there is some error as well. For one thing, there is no "typical" disarm in the silat or kali/escrima systems, just as there is no "typical" disarm in the aikido systems. Since there are hundreds of styles of silat alone, "typical" is rather hard to define. Secondly, eye flicks are not normally the first technique in a disarm, as you would be defanging the snake and hitting/controlling/destroying the weapon bearing limb on your entry, and, if you can rake the eyes, you have already entered. Those who enter without trying to do something to the blade bearing limb first we generally call "dead men." You are correct, though, in saying that the strip is incidental. In reality, disarms only sometimes present themselves. In real fighting, as I tell my students when I hold up a knife and wave my arm, "The best disarm is when 'dis arm right here does not work anymore." Limb destructions are the norm in many of the Southeast Asian combat systems. Going against a knife armed attacker is extremely dangerous and going against one unarmed is not something that anyone should take lightly or really want to do at all. If you have to do it, though, since the attacker is using lethal force on you, you are generally best served with rendering his weapon arm unusable, and/or rendering him incapable of any aggressive movement (through injury, unconsciousness, death, etc.). You have to be extraordinarily good and very, very lucky to be able to do the "put the guy down without hurting him thing." Generally, you just get cut up if you try, at least from what I have seen in full contact sparring with training blades and in actual attacks with the blade. This brings me to you discussing Mickey's statement on kuzushi. You actually are both correct, since I think you are talking at cross purposes. You are absolutely correct in your definition of pure kuzushi. However, Mickey was talking in this instance about the blade environment, and usually, when he posts, he is posting from a realistic combat perspective, and one where he has survived multiple lethal force encounters as a police officer. In a blade confrontation, as Mickey trains with me and well knows that arm destructions are often the norm when attempting to minimize injury to oneself and control the attacker's blade, he was merely stating that there is going to be pain during the balance disruption (or whenever the attacker comes off his recreational pharmaceutical or adrenaline induced high), because the balance disruption is most likely to occur at the point in time when the attacking limb is destroyed. Broken bones, torn cartilage, and ripped tendons and ligaments hurt. From personal experience I can say that sometimes they don't hurt immediately, but the pain does kick in at some point or other and the connection to center and the damage inflicted sure plays holy hell with your balance if it is done right. Mickey is good at getting kuzushi, and can do it without hurting people. When the fight is for real, though, and his safety is at stake, he, like I, will be taking balance while destroying connective tissue and bones, so we can be sure that our opponent stays down. Just as "shoot to stop" is the mantra in law enforcement firearms training, "hit/throw/etc. to stop" is our mantra when it comes to an empty hand, impact weapon, or blade encounter where we start out unarmed and have to deal with a serious threat of injury or death.
Actually, I would have included limb destruction in my general category of impact technique... but it's not a term that is generally used within the Aikido community so I didn't get into it.

I would stand behind my use of "typical" but only if we are talking broadly... Kali and Silat, while consisting of a huge number of actual styles, do have certain things which would identify them as having a South Asian flavor... I am certainly no expert here. Picked up a bit from students of Guru Dan and trained just a bit with Chris Petrilli. Other than reading Don Dreager, that's the limit of my expertise. On the other hand, it's more than most Aikido folks have, so I offered my opinion.

I taught Defensive Tactics for years... had my own system even. I never had to use what I taught to defend myself... but one of my students, a Seattle PD officer at the time, did survive an attack with an edged weapon and credited the practice we had done with his success. I've also had some lengthy discussion with Peyton Quinn, a man who has survived two attempts to kill him with edged weapons, and we are pretty much on the same page. He definitely falls into the category of using a lot of impact technique on the attacker. Since it saved his life twice I am sticking with him as an authority. Most of the rest of us "experts" haven't actually had to use their technique for real...

While I am an Aikido teacher. I defer to other systems and others folks experiences when it comes to areas in which it is patently obvious that Aikido's standard set of responses are simplistic and unrealistic. I'd trust my skills against an untrained attacker... against my equivalent in a blade guy? No contest... the expert with a knife will beat an unarmed guy every time. Unarmed knife defense is for use against people who aren't trained. Against any other level of skill, well it's pure darn luck if you survive that.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2011, 02:03 AM   #74
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

Quote:
Jon Holloway wrote: View Post
Come on Tony, that would not be as fun as talking theory on the Internet. I have been known to tip over a few sacred cows when people train with me and, if in a particularly grumpy mood, to grind those cows up into tasty burgers. .
I'd come to you and Mickey for that little extra, unfortunately there is a bloomin' great pond to get over. Had you guys be not too far up the road I would be there asking for your instruction please......
I have seen the stuff you guys get up to, when I was in the Philippines in 1970 and I believe every word you say, sliced, diced and roasted......
At present I carry a Tanbo, well actually it's an old jo that broke when I threw someone with it (it is well hidden at the back of my cab seat)
The cab has a metal and toughened glass barrier just like the older style London cab. It's there just in case some one is carrying, one never knows these days!!
I prefer to even up the odds...... The threat of knife crime is on the increase here so I take no chances. I always carry minimum cash for change, so if they want that I'll give it to them in more ways than one.... As you know cabbies are at great risk and are very vulnerable. It's more likely that those carrying have no real skill, but that doesn't mean they could get lucky..... Why take chances....?
Preparation and awareness is safety also sizing up the odds quickly.
It just amazes me that so many cabbies do not take that precaution, when I hear about really bad assaults I think to myself, if you knew or felt they were iffy? Why the bloody hell take them? I always go by my gut instinct, and so far it has served me well.... No cabbie worth his salt is that naive, if they are, they should not be doing the job.
You guys take care out there....
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2011, 10:07 AM   #75
Ellis Amdur
Location: Seattle
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 815
Offline
Re: Tanto Practice - Is true Aikido effective for disarming?

George wrote:
Quote:
the expert with a knife will beat an unarmed guy every time. Unarmed knife defense is for use against people who aren't trained. Against any other level of skill, well it's pure darn luck if you survive that.
I agree on a functional level - waza, technique, capabilities of harm of the weapon vs. unarmed.

BUT - there is a certain attitude - kiai - which is specifically trained for in martial arts - and I think particularly within Japanese martial arts - which is exemplified by the expression, "Whatever happens, I'm going home tonight."
There are, I think, three wings of esoteric training in Japanese martial arts:
1. internal training (a lot said about that these days, and even practiced as well).
2. "Spiritual" - including mikkyo, Taoism, neo-Confucianism - the transformation of the human being who is practicing, for tactical, moral and religious/spiritual purposes
3. Kiai - the development of will and the ability to focus one's being to achieve a goal - in this case, the bending, the manipulation or the shattering of the other person's composure or combative ability.
I mention this because it has, on a personal level, saved my life, and also because this is one of the neglected areas of study, even in modern-day koryu. Without kiai, the best waza in the world will not take you very far. With it, you can sometimes overcome the "superior" fighter. This last statement is factual. Your attitude in such circumstances, does not include the word "sometimes."
Best
Ellis

  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How I Met Aikido rulemaker General 2 06-29-2010 10:02 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 12 Peter Goldsbury Columns 32 05-16-2009 06:05 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 5 Peter Goldsbury Columns 69 12-31-2008 11:41 AM
Is Aikido effective for police? erogers General 136 07-13-2008 07:00 AM
For Ted Ehara - Boundary of your aikido? billybob General 123 12-18-2006 04:52 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:12 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate