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Old 04-07-2011, 12:11 PM   #76
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
The way we practice, all shomenuchi attacks are initiated by the nage. When nage presents his/her hand for tai no henko, it is a striking hand, the uke has to take it otherwise it will end up in his face. Same in suwariwaza kokyuho. In juyuwaza the nage is encouraged to close the distance and take initiative and not wait for the attackers to gang up on her. I'd say that "Aikido doesn't initiate attack" is a personal interpretation.
I see where you're going with this, but there are some problems with your examples. First off the shomen strike to initiate attacks could be used, but without a reach advantage it's effectiveness on a person who doesn't want to engage, outside of a boxing context are very limited (more on this in just a second when we get to the boxing). The reach advantage comes from a weapon, without the weapon, you're on even ground and you end up in a boxing situation.

For the offering of the hand in tai no henko. My teacher used to love to talk about how if you don't deal with my hand, it's going to be in your face, then he would show me how he could punch me. That sounded like a good point to me, until I started to study boxing. There are a great number of ways to deal with an incoming strike, grabbing the wrist is about the least effective means I can think of. In an unarmed situation the traditional "boxing cover" if a superior technique in every way. I don't need to directly control an unarmed striking hand, I can simply raise my arm to the part that needs to be protected, and cover. If the hand is armed however I must control it, if I don't you could cut and I will not have the ability to block (unarmed).

Engaging early is great, but it's still based on your attackers desire to attack, no attack, no Aiki. And honestly if they are not attacking, why would you want to engage with them? The idea of rushing someone who isn't attacking you is not really along the philosophy of Aikido.

Quote:
As to Tohei story, it makes no sense to me, a person comes into a dojo with a challenge and then proceeds to be passive to the point that he is "chased" into a corner. In effect the verbal challenge was not followed up by a physical one, logic dictates that the "duel" should have been abandoned in favour of some sake drinking perhaps. Maybe this was impossible due to cultural conventions (e.g. loosing face).
Stories are stories, it's hard to know what happened, using the story to illustrate some points was where I was going.

Quote:
In the interview Chiba says "leapt", and not as you say rushed, which has a negative connotation. He uses "leaped" in the following paragraph as well which describes O-Sensei fighting a "match" (would this be a "duel"?) :
Leapt, rushed, I don't know, semantics, translations, story telling, it's would be hard to get to the bottom of this.

Yes, Ueshiba fought many duels. That doesn't mean that his system is designed for dueling.

Quote:
This reasoning makes no sense to me, if a martial art is effective when multiple attackers are present, it must be even more so for a single attacker. If having no "clinch techniques" is not a problem with many attackers why should it be when there is only one?
It would seem that way, but years of randori, sport competition and getting into fights has taught me that they aren't. So why are they different?

First and foremost, duels (one-on-one) fights are held to see who is better. The goal is to decisively defeat your opponent. This goal forces you to constantly engage your opponent, whether they are pressing you or not. This requires things like boxing technique, clinch fighting, and other methods of sustained conflict. Aikido is not designed this way. In Aikido technique I'd be more then happy to let someone not attack me, turn around and go about their business. It is the attackers attack that makes me respond.

Quote:
What remains is a statement that Aikido is only effective in a "one on one fight" when the Aikidoka is armed, presumably with a sword/tanto but not with say shuriken. Is this your position?
They could have a shuriken as well. Or a pistol, or any other form of handheld weapon.

Quote:
Have a look at the Nishio sensei's take on striking. Not sure how from "two people "square off" it's a one on one fight" you get a "give and take to the exchange". "give and take" and "exchange" are foreign to Aikido as I understand it but I do not see why is this relevant here.
I've seen Nishio Sensei, I'm not exactly sure what you are highlighting here. Boxing is a different animal then is see in Aikido. It's also hard to get at what "Aikido is" because there are so many different branches of Aikido. Some Shihan, have tried to add much striking, and actual boxing technique to their Aikido. However these techniques are not what all styles of Aikido share. However things like Katate dori, Shiho nage, and Kotegaeshi are things we all have in common.

Quote:
So Aikido does not mix with unarmed "dueling" and armed "dueling" are not it's strong suit. To what sort of scenarios, in your opinion, is Aikido a good fit?
Armed while facing multiple opponents.

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Old 04-07-2011, 03:23 PM   #77
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

Yes, thank you for understanding that point - it being a mixture of two elements: a specific martial conflict (i.e. closing the gap slowly and steadily for the purposes of grabbing) AND a commonly understood Aikido.

I, and perhaps like you, do not define "Aikido" by the commonly practiced technical curriculum. Such that when I clock this guy in the face or kick him in the groin it's as pure a form of Aikido as if I were doing Ikkyo.

On a related note, once I did my own experiment on something similar to this. In that experiment, the guy's intention was not so much to grab me as it was to strike at me (again, under pre-decided proscriptions against weapons being present). At the same time, I set myself the task of having to enter to the aggressor's shikaku - the one to the rear, as commonly practiced in many a regular Aikido technique (e.g. Irimi Nage).

Folks who had never done such training right away looked at it and shouted their usual Aikido slogans: "You need to enter more!" "It's too passive!" "Aikido has to be assertive!" Yada yada yada. Guess how many folks put their version on film? None.

What I saw from the experiment was the tactical need in regular Aikido waza like Irimi Nage to have an attacker truly aggress. When, for example, there is no outright hatred and over-whelming desire to kill you, the need to aggress on the part of the attacker is often outweighed by the need to maintain a technical base of operation. Or, additionally for example, when there are no weapons present or when the threat of weapons are not present, the closing of the gap is not so precarious a task. As a result, true aggression can again be outweighed by the need to maintain a technical base of operation.

This is why, in the experiment, since I was limited to the task of entering to a given shikaku, while I was facing an energy that was by choice allowed to be conservative and probing, non-aggressive, I was left with what I considered to be the best option: baiting, slipping, and following return motions. This is not normally a part of Irimi Nage, though it is for me a part of Aikido, and as a result, folks looked at it and screamed: "Not Aikido!" "Not Good Aikido!" For me, pressed by all the criteria and restrictions, I found what I learned very insightful. and the Aikido I was practicing jumped to a whole other level of application.

Here's that video:

http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/v...ermediate.html

Here's a counter-example as my deshi is going through the tough spots of learning how to do this:
http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/vids/latwone.html

Again, outside, at work for example (Law Enforcement), guess how many times I have faced these dojo duel situations: None.

In real life, aggression is an automatic part of human-vs-human violence. As such, weapons are almost always present or it's in your interest to treat them as such.

Still, I feel my practical insights gained on baiting, filling, and following return motion has served me well on and off the mat. I also feel I understand Irimi Nage at a much deeper level too.

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 04-07-2011, 04:27 PM   #78
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

Chris

From the link in your signature I see that you have your own school. How does the attitude that Aikido is in its best when

Quote:
"Armed while facing multiple opponents."
is reflected in your training? What weapons are you using and within those weapons do you apply an existing methodology and if so which one?

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Old 04-07-2011, 06:31 PM   #79
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

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David Soroko wrote: View Post
Chris

From the link in your signature I see that you have your own school. How does the attitude that Aikido is in its best when

is reflected in your training? What weapons are you using and within those weapons do you apply an existing methodology and if so which one?
My students are huge supporters of the idea. In fact, I've never worked with anyone who couldn't quickly see what I was getting at.

My training heavily reflects this idea. We discuss and work with many different types of weapons, both modern and traditional.

What do you mean by methodology? Methodology of the weapon specifics (bladed, projective, long etc) or do you mean Aikido methodology as it pertains to the weapon? I'm not sure what you mean.

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Old 04-08-2011, 12:32 AM   #80
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

For example, if you consider the sword, which sword school/tradition/discipline are you basing your sword work on? Then, how do integrate this into training for "Armed while facing multiple opponents"?

Also, when you say "Armed while facing multiple opponents", are the opponents armed as well?

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Old 04-08-2011, 11:46 AM   #81
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
For example, if you consider the sword, which sword school/tradition/discipline are you basing your sword work on? Then, how do integrate this into training for "Armed while facing multiple opponents"?
The specific weapon skills are best taught by a weapon school. For example, I said firearms and Aikido are highly compatible systems. That doesn't mean that Aikido is good at teaching you to use a pistol. What it means is that Aikido is a base system which teaches you to keep your weapon hand free (wrist techniques), keep you out of the clinch (body techniques) and in a good position to use your weapon (tai sabaki). The specifics of the weapon are not taught within the syllabus, but the ability to keep your weapon useful is.

This point is where many people get confused when I say that Aikido is a weapon based system. Aside from aikiken and aikijo, Aikido doesn't teach weapon specifics. Instead Aikido teaches you how to stay free from attacks that would inhibit your weapon use. If you've ever struggled over a weapon you can appreciate how important this skill is.

Quote:
Also, when you say "Armed while facing multiple opponents", are the opponents armed as well?
The opponents may also be armed. But Aikido doesn't tech lot's of specifics about this. For example, if you were in a one-on-one sword fight, as I was saying, Aikido doesn't teach many of the needed skills that you may learn in say a koryu sword heavy system. However Aikido does teach us to deal with basic armed attacks: Yokomen, Shomen, Tsuki. Here is a quick video of me explaining the basics of this idea:

http://www.aikidostudent.com/content/?p=290

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Old 04-08-2011, 09:27 PM   #82
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

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What impact does our understanding of the martial context of aikido have on our practices?

If we do not understand the martial context of our art, how can we genuinely develop the specific skills of that art?

If we accept the intimate relationship between aikido and weapons, what are the implications for a modern practitioner? (Think: Will aikido work in the cage?; But I don't carry weapons; I practice aikido to experience harmony of movement; etc.)
First, I believe that what we are training, "aiki" of "aikido" happens before physical contact. "Aiki" [as I understand it now] is a transition of balance and control from one or multiple parties into one, a unification of you and your partners. So the scope of aikido is this small window which precedes contact and carries through the conclusion of your engagement. If you have aiki, we are doing aikido. If you do not have aiki, we are doing jutsu.

The martial context in which we are training is to understand the strategy of creating an encounter which allows us to connect with our partner and seize control of the engagement in such a manner as to allow your partner the opportunity to be complicit. Weapons provide great training tools for us to experience different ranges of engagement, consideration of combat variables and movement considerations using a weapon to list just a few. In any case, weapons allow us a new tactic in which to employ our aikido principles (which are consistent through applications).

Martial application is the blueprint for martial arts. Understanding the how's and why's of what we do is essential to elevated understanding of aikido. I believe we have a lot of bad aikido because we stopped remembering the how's and why's of what we do. Weapons are just one of many tools to examine the underlying principles of aikido.

Now, you get what you pay [for]. I think you can happily train in aikido and never pick up a weapon. I do not believe you will have the same experience as one someone who does but maybe you do not want that experience. However, I do believe the experience you will miss is one that explains the how's and why's of aikido and unless you get access to that information from another source you will be disadvantaged against your peers [who use weapons].

I know many aikido people who could tell you how to throw someone. But I know few that could walk into a judo tournament and throw any one.

Last edited by jonreading : 04-08-2011 at 09:32 PM.
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Old 04-09-2011, 04:05 AM   #83
graham christian
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

Here's a quick thought for anyone. As you get better and better at Aikido and reach a good competant level then you may realize this:

Aikido IS a weapon.

Regards.G.
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Old 04-09-2011, 12:52 PM   #84
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

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Here's a quick thought for anyone. As you get better and better at Aikido and reach a good competant level then you may realize this:

Aikido IS a weapon.

Regards.G.
Hmm, while I can appreciate the comparison, that statement can be a bit misleading and quickly derail where we are going.

Aikido, is a system. A system that teaches many things, some of these things likely have great application in a martial context, but that doesn't make Aikido a "weapon".

I could say that learning to drive a NASCAR is a weapon. Truth is, that if I hit you with my car I'm using it as a weapon, but that doesn't make NASCAR a weapon.

Sorry to be a nitpicker, but we've got to stay clear about where we are going.

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Old 04-09-2011, 01:33 PM   #85
graham christian
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Hmm, while I can appreciate the comparison, that statement can be a bit misleading and quickly derail where we are going.

Aikido, is a system. A system that teaches many things, some of these things likely have great application in a martial context, but that doesn't make Aikido a "weapon".

I could say that learning to drive a NASCAR is a weapon. Truth is, that if I hit you with my car I'm using it as a weapon, but that doesn't make NASCAR a weapon.

Sorry to be a nitpicker, but we've got to stay clear about where we are going.
Hi Chris.
It is a bit away from the meaning of the discussion but on the other hand in this country at least it is considered a lethal weapon if you are a competant martial artist. Whether its your hands feet whatever. So by law you can't go around misusing your skill.

All martial arts are lethal weapons by design when you think about it. Emphasis on by design.

However, it needn't be part of the discussion per say, just a reminder.

I find the thread very interesting and the different approaches to do with weapons and thoughts on their connection to how each does Aikido.

I'm sure I read a story about a monk who started or introduced kempo to japan. (in this story it was presented as the forerunner to all that led to Aikido etc.) The monk was faced by a samurai and I don't quite remember the ins and outs but basically, unarmed easily defeated the samurai. His response was that he always carried his weapons with him for they were in him.

I'm sure someone on here will know the relevant sources.

Regards.G.
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Old 04-09-2011, 03:35 PM   #86
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I'm sure I read a story about a monk who started or introduced kempo to japan. (in this story it was presented as the forerunner to all that led to Aikido etc.) The monk was faced by a samurai and I don't quite remember the ins and outs but basically, unarmed easily defeated the samurai. His response was that he always carried his weapons with him for they were in him.

I'm sure someone on here will know the relevant sources.
You're talking about Chingempin.

And the tale is probably false, as usual in this kind of legendary tales of martial awesomeness.
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Old 04-09-2011, 04:08 PM   #87
graham christian
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
You're talking about Chingempin.

And the tale is probably false, as usual in this kind of legendary tales of martial awesomeness.
I just looked him up and found the tale you refer to. That was related to the art of ken, interesting.

However I have been looking for the story I was refering to and found it. It's under the heading 'kempo the ancient ultimate weapon'

Granted it is as you say a legendary tale and maybe false but the write up with it was good reading.

Regards.G.
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Old 04-09-2011, 08:17 PM   #88
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

Looks like we're getting WAY off topic here.

Is it possible for an unarmed man to beat a strong willed, goal oriented armed man? Yes. Is it in anyway likely? No. Is there any system that can teach the average person to do this consistently? Not by any stretch of the imagination. Does being armed offer the best chances of survival? Most certainly.

Okay, enough of that.

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Old 04-10-2011, 07:09 AM   #89
graham christian
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Looks like we're getting WAY off topic here.

Is it possible for an unarmed man to beat a strong willed, goal oriented armed man? Yes. Is it in anyway likely? No. Is there any system that can teach the average person to do this consistently? Not by any stretch of the imagination. Does being armed offer the best chances of survival? Most certainly.

Okay, enough of that.
Chris. Why is it way off topic? It's to do with Aikido and weapons: the connection.

From how I learned the connection was obvious. In fact I have done many lessons precisely from that perspective. Every technique done from the viewpoint of if and how it relates to a weapon from both sides.

What I mean by both sides is this. You can give a student or partner two weapons, whether two bokken or wooden knives and taking both wrists try to do let's say tenshinage. On the other hand you can be the person holding the weapons and while being held try to do tenshinage.

The point is you can experiment and find out and recognise much from that type of training.

In a war I would agree with what you said above however in any other scene in life I would say it would have the opposite effect.

The best purpose for using weapons in Aikido, from my view anyway, is what you gain by so doing which is nothing to do with carrying weapons or facing weapons on the street. It's the developement of a calm mind in dangerous situations, it's the developement of zanshin, it's the developement of movement without thought, it's so many things and in fact all those things are the best weapons.

All ways of weapon practice are useful if they lead to better qualities of movement and states of mind.

Respectfully.G.
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Old 04-10-2011, 04:24 PM   #90
Mark Freeman
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

Quote:
Is it possible for an unarmed man to beat a strong willed, goal oriented armed man? Yes. Is it in anyway likely? No. Is there any system that can teach the average person to do this consistently? Not by any stretch of the imagination. Does being armed offer the best chances of survival? Most certainly.
I agree with this, in that the 'average' person has very little chance at all in this situation. Exceptional is what you'd have to be to come out on top, doesn't really matter what your art is. I do think that Aikido offers the right principles to follow that lead people towards the skill required to improve their chances.

I also agree with this:
Quote:
The best purpose for using weapons in Aikido, from my view anyway, is what you gain by so doing which is nothing to do with carrying weapons or facing weapons on the street. It's the developement of a calm mind in dangerous situations, it's the developement of zanshin, it's the developement of movement without thought, it's so many things and in fact all those things are the best weapons.

All ways of weapon practice are useful if they lead to better qualities of movement and states of mind.
This is what I use weapons for in my practice too. well put Graham.

regards,

Mark

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Old 04-10-2011, 07:21 PM   #91
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

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Chris. Why is it way off topic? It's to do with Aikido and weapons: the connection.
Because the idea of the thread is physical weapons. Not if training in Aikido can make your unarmed body into a weapon. We start to get more tangential when we bring up unfounded stories of unarmed people defeating armed people.

Could there be a general relation between what you are saying and the original idea behind this thread, yes, but I don't believe it's in the spirit of the original post.

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Old 04-10-2011, 09:24 PM   #92
graham christian
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Because the idea of the thread is physical weapons. Not if training in Aikido can make your unarmed body into a weapon. We start to get more tangential when we bring up unfounded stories of unarmed people defeating armed people.

Could there be a general relation between what you are saying and the original idea behind this thread, yes, but I don't believe it's in the spirit of the original post.
Well put. Point taken.

Regards.G.
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Old 04-11-2011, 02:24 AM   #93
Michael Varin
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

For me, the interesting discussion is not with the things that always/never are, which I'm pretty sure don't exist. Nor is it in the many areas of overlap that I doubt many of us would argue do exist.

The importance of this concept and the heart of this discussion, in my mind, revolve around a way to enhance our training. To provide us with an opportunity to develop real skills. To provide the context in which the movement patterns and techniques of aikido arise naturally and more frequently. To provide the motivations that give clarity to the techniques.

Good boxers know about the jab and cross. They know how they will use the jab and cross, and when they are appropriate. They have a number of methods of training the jab and cross. Within a match, the jab and cross occur naturally, and "fit" when they do occur. The jab and cross can be executed under pressure in the same way that they are in light training.

Can aikidoists say the same thing about ikkyo or the various blends to yokomen uchi?

Would a boxer have as many opportunities to use the jab and cross under pressure, if his opponent had a bokken? Would he have the motivation to use them?

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 04-11-2011, 10:58 AM   #94
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

Yes, here again we see how context is king. The boxer knows what context his skill set falls into. Whenever that context arises, his skills are naturally available to him because of his training within that context. The boxer outlined above would have a very hard time if he tried to use those skills in an organized wrestling match!

Looking at the example of a boxer, trying to box in a wrestling match, is obviously flawed. It's easy to see why boxing won't work in a wrestling match. The reason it won't fit is due to a restricting and unnatural ruleset, put in-place by the wrestling organization holding the match. There are other contexts, naturally occurring contexts, which create contextual problems that are much less obvious.

Weapons conflict, and multiple attackers can be just such context. First because we are far less familiar with them, secondly because of our desire to see all martial arts systems as dealing with one context, one-on-one, unarmed.

The simple fact that a weapon is present dramatically changes the context. A weapon is capable of delivering many times the force that an unarmed person can manage. The paramount importance of controlling the weapon makes weapons conflict inherently different than unarmed conflict. This changes the techniques that would be "natural" to use.

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Old 04-12-2011, 10:23 AM   #95
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Good boxers know about the jab and cross. They know how they will use the jab and cross, and when they are appropriate. They have a number of methods of training the jab and cross. Within a match, the jab and cross occur naturally, and "fit" when they do occur. The jab and cross can be executed under pressure in the same way that they are in light training.

Can aikidoists say the same thing about ikkyo or the various blends to yokomen uchi?

Would a boxer have as many opportunities to use the jab and cross under pressure, if his opponent had a bokken? Would he have the motivation to use them?
IMO, there's an elephant in the room: tai sabaki (called "footwork" by boxers). Here's a clip of Bas Rutten ranting about things he knows nothing about. Specifically he refers to yokomenuchi blend and ikkyo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k_uumIQ1uk

At ~25 seconds he says that stopping a (haymaker) cross punch and that dodging a jab to get the ikkyo grab (he leans back) just don't work. Actually he's right, but it's a straw-man argument because that's not how the techniques are supposed to work at all. At the end what he's saying is that failed execution of Aikido techniques are not effective. Duh. Ironically he does seem to be a fan of kotegaesh, never mind the same "footwork" which gives your kotegaesh power will get your face away from a jab.

I'm a short guy. With weapons (tachi dori: yokomenuchi ikkyo/kotegaesh) if I don't get the taisabaki right, I don't get any opportunity to execute the technique. If I don't move at all I might get whacked. It's great for learning timing skills (sen-no-sen, kokyu) and taisabaki which translate directly to unarmed techniques.

IMO, the weapons training is foremost (as a beginner, first things first) a crucible for developing and testing fundamental skills which apply to many techniques and arts. I have a friend who is learning and playing a lot of tennis. The fundamental skills are even similar in other sports.
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Old 04-19-2011, 01:18 AM   #96
Aikibu
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

Quote:
Jeremy McMillan wrote: View Post

IMO, the weapons training is foremost (as a beginner, first things first) a crucible for developing and testing fundamental skills which apply to many techniques and arts. I have a friend who is learning and playing a lot of tennis. The fundamental skills are even similar in other sports.
"Aikido is The Sword."

In my experience in our Aikido there is no separation between weapons and tai sabaki.... Zero.... Now I know some folks have stated "they have seen" (and sadly dismissed) Shoji Nishio's Practice. All I can say is that you pick up a bokken on day one and it is an integral part of every technique. There is no "connection" because to say so would imply there is a "separation".

Every movement is done with the sword in mind (if not in your hand). And you instantly can tell those who practice this way from those who don't.

William Hazen

PS. We are not the only Martial System that practices this "way" but we as far as I know We "may" be the only Aikido Practice that does. (Apologies in advance if I offend those Aikidoka who say they practice this way. I would love to hear more about it. )
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Old 04-19-2011, 05:47 AM   #97
Michael Varin
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Join Date: May 2005
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

Quote:
Jeremy McMillan wrote:
IMO, there's an elephant in the room: tai sabaki (called "footwork" by boxers). Here's a clip of Bas Rutten ranting about things he knows nothing about. Specifically he refers to yokomenuchi blend and ikkyo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k_uumIQ1uk

At ~25 seconds he says that stopping a (haymaker) cross punch and that dodging a jab to get the ikkyo grab (he leans back) just don't work. Actually he's right, but it's a straw-man argument because that's not how the techniques are supposed to work at all. At the end what he's saying is that failed execution of Aikido techniques are not effective. Duh. Ironically he does seem to be a fan of kotegaesh, never mind the same "footwork" which gives your kotegaesh power will get your face away from a jab.

I'm a short guy. With weapons (tachi dori: yokomenuchi ikkyo/kotegaesh) if I don't get the taisabaki right, I don't get any opportunity to execute the technique. If I don't move at all I might get whacked. It's great for learning timing skills (sen-no-sen, kokyu) and taisabaki which translate directly to unarmed techniques.
OK. Great post. We can get this thread going again.

Bas Rutten is one of the most knowledgeable people when it comes to one-on-one empty-hand fighting. That clip demonstrates precisely what this thread is about. And it has nothing to do with "failed execution" of aikido techniques.

It has everything to do with CONTEXT.

Why would anyone every attempt the blends we see in aikido against empty-hand strikes? The risk versus reward is just too high, when more reliable techniques exist.

But add a sword or knife, and you see that those blends are all that you can hope to do (this doesn't mean that they make the situation "easier").

On the other hand, all of the empty-hand techniques and strategies we see in mma are almost certain suicide against a sword or knife.

Additionally, those same empty-handed techniques don't really complement the use of weapons, so why would they be the focus of someone who is primarily interested in using his weapons?

But recognizing this is only part of the puzzle... What are we going to do about it?

How can we use this knowledge to enhance our training?

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 04-19-2011, 11:16 AM   #98
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
OK. Great post. We can get this thread going again.

Bas Rutten is one of the most knowledgeable people when it comes to one-on-one empty-hand fighting. That clip demonstrates precisely what this thread is about. And it has nothing to do with "failed execution" of aikido techniques.

It has everything to do with CONTEXT.

Why would anyone every attempt the blends we see in aikido against empty-hand strikes? The risk versus reward is just too high, when more reliable techniques exist.

But add a sword or knife, and you see that those blends are all that you can hope to do (this doesn't mean that they make the situation "easier").

On the other hand, all of the empty-hand techniques and strategies we see in mma are almost certain suicide against a sword or knife.

Additionally, those same empty-handed techniques don't really complement the use of weapons, so why would they be the focus of someone who is primarily interested in using his weapons?

But recognizing this is only part of the puzzle... What are we going to do about it?

How can we use this knowledge to enhance our training?
Going to the next seminar might be a good start. It may solve all your "puzzles" for you.

William Hazen
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