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Old 04-11-2011, 01:04 PM   #51
Gorgeous George
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

...and even this dude moves out of the way when the Kiai Master wafts his hand at him in a real contest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djUKq...eature=related
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Old 04-11-2011, 01:35 PM   #52
Marc Abrams
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
...and even this dude moves out of the way when the Kiai Master wafts his hand at him in a real contest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djUKq...eature=related
Unfortunately, people like that believe their own powers so deeply and get their students to buy into it as deeply as well so that when reality rears it's ugly head, it does not tickle. The other stuff that many of us are talking about does not require such a collusive process. Instead, this other stuff requires a healthy degree of self-preservation on the part of the attacker. If the person has over-ridden this self-protective instinct, then the odds are that this person should only play with sports and not with encounters that can result in more dangerous outcomes.

Marc Abrams
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Old 04-11-2011, 02:00 PM   #53
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

Ushiro Sensei in the same thread the the "Kiai Master".

What's next?

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Old 04-11-2011, 02:33 PM   #54
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

Two distinct versions of no touch throws seem to be discussed in parallel here:

1: no touch throws with several feet distance between uke's head and nage's hand

2: no touch throws with only a few inches distance between uke's head and nage's hand

It seems most of us agree that 1 is nonsense, while 2 seems to be fairly common.
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Old 04-11-2011, 02:46 PM   #55
Larry Feldman
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

As far as the 'Ki Masters'....Tohei was in the U.S. at a party, and was asked if he could turn the light switch off (that was across the room) using his Ki.

He said 'of course', the room fell silent and he got up, walked across the room and turned the switch. He said that he used his Ki to do it....

As I have done more and more come to hold and moving techniques, and other practice, you do tend to get a better 'feel' about when someone is coming to attack you. Much more work to be done. I look at O'Sensei's skill at that as having been very well defined - he could sense the intention, like you or I could feel a ripple in a calm pool. He just didn't need the pool. Yet still no flaming Ki balls from across the room.

One of these days, hopefully soon I will attempt to make the Ushiro seminar.
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Old 04-11-2011, 02:53 PM   #56
Marc Abrams
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Ushiro Sensei in the same thread the the "Kiai Master".

What's next?
Demetrio:

How about a match between those two teachers !

Marc Abrams
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Old 04-11-2011, 03:03 PM   #57
Demetrio Cereijo
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Talking Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

Kiai mastah wins. Ushiro will be defeated by the deadly technique of much laughing.

If done right no can defense!!!

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Old 04-11-2011, 03:08 PM   #58
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
Two distinct versions of no touch throws seem to be discussed in parallel here:

1: no touch throws with several feet distance between uke's head and nage's hand

2: no touch throws with only a few inches distance between uke's head and nage's hand

It seems most of us agree that 1 is nonsense, while 2 seems to be fairly common.
I would agree 99% but I still would not call someone taking ukemi instead of being punched in the nose a throw, as who exactly is throwing who? The person throwing the strike or do you throw yourself?
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Old 04-11-2011, 03:13 PM   #59
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

Quote:
Gornall Bell wrote: View Post
I would agree 99% but I still would not call someone taking ukemi instead of being punched in the nose a throw, as who exactly is throwing who? The person throwing the strike or do you throw yourself?
It happens both ways.

Sometimes the one who is about to being hit throws himself to avoid the strike, sometimes the attempt to avoid the strike is not compatible with keeping balance due to the inertia of the (usually very commited) attack.

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Old 04-11-2011, 03:41 PM   #60
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

Quote:
Gornall Bell wrote: View Post
I would agree 99% but I still would not call someone taking ukemi instead of being punched in the nose a throw, as who exactly is throwing who? The person throwing the strike or do you throw yourself?
Dear Gornall,
Your last sentences raise an interesting [I hope ] point.If Uke makes any contact or attempts to attack Tori, considering the basic principles of Aikido, if these are applied correctly the result of Ukes 'attack ' sees Uke neutralised.So in a manner of speaking Uke himself [by virtue of the fact that he is the aggressor ] is the primary architect of his/her own demise.All that Tori does [again in a manner of speaking ] simply makes it easier for Uke to bite the dust.This surely is being benevolent and assisting Uke to restore Aiki.ie the balance between both parties.No conflict /no fight.
Cheers, Joe.
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Old 04-11-2011, 03:54 PM   #61
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

Hi Joe

And when we see Aikido masters like Nishino, Hirosawa, Watanabe or Takeda demos, what you would say is the cause of the throws?

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Old 04-11-2011, 04:02 PM   #62
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
IMHO, its relatively easy to get even trained people (except at rather high levels) to over extend.

So yes, I tend not to throw them but let them fall because of their own body momentum, mechanics, and alignment. Also because either their mind really wants to hit me or their mind really doesn't want to be hit by me.
This one is not very high level. However he has already some training.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjleMX9Y1vg

you still believe he will fall "because of his own body momentum, mechanics, and alignment"
hahahahahaha you are so funny Lynn....

To all "no touch throwing" believers in this thread - PPL get real. Weak up!!! Urban Legends are dead.Stop being blind - go to nearest MMA gym and throw any BEGINNER only once without touching him, bring video back.... Am I asking still too much?

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 04-11-2011, 04:07 PM   #63
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Hi Joe

And when we see Aikido masters like Nishino, Hirosawa, Watanabe or Takeda demos, what you would say is the cause of the throws?
Very obliging ukes.

Ron

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Old 04-11-2011, 04:07 PM   #64
Mark Freeman
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

Quote:
Gornall Bell wrote: View Post
I would agree 99% but I still would not call someone taking ukemi instead of being punched in the nose a throw, as who exactly is throwing who? The person throwing the strike or do you throw yourself?
both, you can't really have one without the other. The type 2 no touch throw works on the level of mind/intent. It only works for real if ukes attack is with intent and purpose, purpose as in a grab to control, a cut or a strike of some kind. Intent in making that attack count. All attacks by uke should be as on balance and centred as possible. Nage's role is to extend his intent into uke before the attack is instigated. When uke makes his attack nage should be in aiki with uke at that point, from then on, if nage can lead ukes mind, then the body has no choice but to follow, uke ends up on the ground as a result. Timing, concentration, proper centered movement, relaxation, intent and bags of practice, simple.

The type 1 throw that can be seen over some distance seem to me be nonsense if only because a real attack would never be initiate from such a distance, therefore, must be working on some other level. I would love to feel that sort of power if it exists. But it does seem that you need your own specially trained students to be that good! My own teacher, could be considered to be the best Ki aikido teacher in the country and he has thrown me with type 2, and a lovely feeling it is too, but not with type 1

regards,

Mark

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Old 04-11-2011, 04:10 PM   #65
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
...go to nearest MMA gym and throw any BEGINNER only once without touching him,
Been there, done that.

Quote:
bring video back.... Am I asking still too much?
I'd like to see video of you in a MMA gym doing touch throws, deal?

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Old 04-11-2011, 04:34 PM   #66
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Been there, done that.
blah blah blah still no video
Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I'd like to see video of you in a MMA gym doing touch throws, deal?
I'm not claiming anything. Why should I prove that God doesn't exist? hahahah

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 04-11-2011, 05:07 PM   #67
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
blah blah blah still no video
Quid pro quo. Your video sparring in full contact MMA against someone who is not a tomato can vs mine.

Quote:
I'm not claiming anything. Why should I prove that God doesn't exist? hahahah
I didn't say you claimed anything, But I suspect God's existence could be proven scientifically before you step in a MMA gym for real sparring. I'd like to be proven wrong, oh unpronuntiable one.

Tenkan of steel clip is sooooo dated.

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Old 04-11-2011, 09:51 PM   #68
Walter Martindale
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
I'm not claiming anything. Why should I prove that God doesn't exist? hahahah
Shouldn't that be 'gods don't exist'? oops - wrong thread... (if one god is real, then why not all of them, converse question, too?)
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Old 04-11-2011, 10:06 PM   #69
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
IMHO, its relatively easy to get even trained people (except at rather high levels) to over extend.

So yes, I tend not to throw them but let them fall because of their own body momentum, mechanics, and alignment. Also because either their mind really wants to hit me or their mind really doesn't want to be hit by me.
Hi Lynn

I've done lots of styles, outside of aikido, and one thing is a real fact. It is very hard to get people to over extend who have had training, boxers rarely do so, they throw punches from a balanced point. Watch a judo match, all that stand up grabbing and scruffing is required because neither is willing to extend, they are pulling all their energy inwards to maintain balance. In BJJ it is a mortal sin to over extend, do that I'll take your back and choke you out in seconds.

Yes trained people do over extend, in Aikido, because it is about flow, energy and it is dynamic - which is what I love about the art.

My take on these things, is and always will be, that it is all legitimate for the Art that we(you) do but so many people make the mistake of translating what works in the aikido Dojo to outside of it.

That is my point in this whole discussion. We must recognise what works in the Dojo and what doesn't. So many Aikido instructors just don't get it, instructors have a responsibility to their students to understand this deeply. But to do so sometimes requires a level of self understanding, and at times eating large amounts of humble pie that most will not consider, or do this.

And so the myths are continued to the next generation...
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Old 04-11-2011, 11:54 PM   #70
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

There are some. Really good points. Being made in this thread, and without a flame war happening! This is so refreshing and to me very informative, I'm learning a lot!
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Old 04-12-2011, 05:15 AM   #71
Diana Frese
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

What Gornall Bell just said.

I think I wrote something similar earlier in this thread, about really good posts on both sides. I was intending to thank Carina for posting Niall's blog entry on Watanabe Sensei, and by the way I wrote one on him myself, having joined later in the year and not knowing about Niall's until after I had posted mine. By the way I had listed Watanabe Sensei as one of my main teachers in my profile.

My husband says sometimes no touch throws do happen in what I may term action sparring, the type he and his brother used to do, he figured out it might sometimes happen,but that's another story. I'm not going to try to duplicate what others have said better than I, and I haven't seen Watanabe Sensei since 1975 and only exchanged a couple of sentences at the dojo and coffee shop in a small group of people, so I'm guessing that the no touch throws in the demo clips were to show the extreme development of leading, etc.

Watanabe Sensei was, and I am sure still is, an excellent teacher. Another guess is, similar to a recommendation years ago someone explained, that weapons are an excellent way, as extensions of the empty hand, to teach the regular empty handed techniques. Likewise, might the no touch ways be a way to teach the extension of the "regular " forms?

As for personal experience I grew to really like teaching katate tori, then gradually go into the leading forms, to make sure students kept paying attention to the connection between uke and nage....

Well, this is probably old stuff to many of you, and I haven't taught much in the past twenty or more years, so I'll defer to the other side of the debate, to be fair.

It may surprise y'all but Tony W. has been helping my husband and myself with advice and training suggestions for quite some time both in the threads to begin with and then via email. Job and home repairs have kept us really busy, let alone winter related .... but when we do get back to training we will include them. They are very valuable.

Chuck likes judo, so Tony's Tomiki style perspective is very interesting to him, athough he also likes what my "lineages" (Francis called my list of teachers "eclectic") have to offer.

Actually it's interesting to both of us. I'm going to include a quote from one of Tony's emails on self defense as soon as I can copy it longhand off the email and then type it onto a post for you to read. I'm still technologically challenged, have dial up video and am very far behind in watching clips people have kindly posted. Furthermore I didn't have time to study how to transfer from email to a web post. Sorry about that. Well, later today for the post, I'm posting this for now...
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Old 04-12-2011, 08:02 AM   #72
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

This is excerpted from an email of Tony's and pretty succinctly summarizes his opinion of no touch throws:

" In all the years of Tomiki/Shodokan training as well as
other martial arts training I have yet to see a no touch throw
that people on AW are so happy to believe and delude
themselves to!!!!!" (more quote to follow)

Strong words, but Tony is very self defense oriented and it is very important, I feel to remind students that they should keep self defense in mind as any of us might need it some day... I'll look up Tony's quote on that.
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Old 04-12-2011, 10:22 AM   #73
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
you still believe he will fall "because of his own body momentum, mechanics, and alignment" hahahahahaha you are so funny Lynn....
Thank you for illustrating the point that its easy to get people to over extend and lose their own sense of balance.

As I tell my wife, I am funny but not nice.

Lynn Seiser PhD
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We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 04-12-2011, 10:45 AM   #74
graham christian
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

A friend of mine, also a very experienced over 30 yrs. Aikido teacher says to his students that Aikido is the matial art of loving protection. He also points out that for many it is a matial art of self defence.

This is only put here so that we can understand where peoples viewpoints are coming from with understanding rather than opposition.

I think most know which viewpoint I teach from but that doesn't mean I don't understand so called opposition views to mine for to me they are not opposite, they are different.

So now back to the topic at hand and I will make a statement. Yes I can perform a no touch throw on anyone from any martial art of any weight or size or competance.

Does that mean no matter what? No it doesn't for it does depend on the circumstances.

This also doesn't mean like in the examples given by Demetrio for I do not understand them. It does however mostly come under the aspect of Aikido called Kokyu.

Recently I have been training with a thick set muscular guy who is an experienced judoka.

Now an experienced judo man is very used to countering of any attempt to lead and throw and many other aspects of Aikido so are very good training partners. The point here is he was very interested in two things. One was what he felt and the effect on him when his center line was attacked but the other was when I did forms of Kokyu. He loved it and said he'd never experienced anything like it.

He turned into a little kid jumping up all enthusiastic and saying 'do it again, do it again.'

So this is just to say that there are aspects of Aikido where if trained in a person can do it. It's not magic.

Now when I say it depends on the circumstances I mean being aware of what is needed and applicable to the attack or hold and each time it may be different depending on the attack. Therefore there would be many circumstances where doing such a thing people tend to call 'no touch throwing' would not only not fit but also would not work.( I never use that term personally)

So the word is CAN be done.

Regards.G.

Last edited by graham christian : 04-12-2011 at 10:49 AM. Reason: grammar
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Old 04-12-2011, 11:23 AM   #75
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Quid pro quo. Your video sparring in full contact MMA against someone who is not a tomato can vs mine.

I didn't say you claimed anything, But I suspect God's existence could be proven scientifically before you step in a MMA gym for real sparring. I'd like to be proven wrong, oh unpronuntiable one.

Tenkan of steel clip is sooooo dated.
I didn't claimed anything, so I don't need to publish video - logic is simple. Don't try to impose me your own duty LOL. For God reference, you didn't understand a joke...

***======================================

However I read in this thread" " it is not a magic" "I've done there out of aikido context", "It is very simple to do" and similar prancing claims........
I studied with different O sensei direct students in my short life - ALL of them said directly about no touch throws - " I can't do it". Sundennly , here on Aikiweb we discover some exceptional Martial Artists, with higher level of aikido understanding than O sensei direct students. I'd say - It is AMAZING!!!! But my logical brain tells me - watch out, writing words on internet is cheap.

So I said - PROVE IT with video! Technology is cheap and simple, available everywhere.

For the moment all I see is BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH....

Nagababa

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