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Old 04-08-2011, 09:57 PM   #276
Lorien Lowe
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
My point is that the banks knew when cheap energy would peak, so they repealed Glass-Steagall in 1999 which led to this derivatives and housing scheme to 'transfer' wealth as much as possible at the right time. Did you disagree with any of Bartlett's video?
I honestly don't think that they're capable of thinking that far ahead. I think that the repeal of Glass-Seagall was more on the order of, 'oh, boy, now we can get rich quick and screw anyone who isn't a banker,' than, 'oh, oil is running down so we need to plan for it.' Just as morally bankrupt, but far less clever.

As for Bartlett, some of his early population discussion was a little off (though not too bad for a non-biologist), and some of his points were based on assumptions (for example, that resources will continue to be extracted in a normal distribution over time, which is usual but hardly a natural law) but in such a way as to have little to no relevance to his ultimate point.

Edit: Tenyu, have you read Collapse, by Jared Diamond?
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Old 04-09-2011, 05:21 AM   #277
graham christian
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
Ok, Graham:
You don't have any workable ideas.
You won't address the data.
Good to know. Now stop whining about how the rest of us are trying to handle it, ok? I believe the moral is, 'lead, follow, or get out of the way.'

@ Tenyu: I'm pretty sure that I've seen that series of vids before, but I want to watch all 8 to make sure I'm not missing any points. I do have some criticisms, but I wish to be complete.

edit: in the mean time, here's an interesting link about where our energy comes from.
http://www.salon.com/news/env/energy..._mexico_canada
Lorien.
Whining? Mmmm. I think a mirror would help. I have presented an alternative viewpoint. I whine not.

I merely smile at the ignorance of man. I smile at the drama. I smile at the apparant resistance to an ideal solution.

So much data, more and more how bad it is. Driving yourself to depression. Too much complexity and drama.

The bankers are doing this, the blah are doing that.

Read those kind of things since childhood. I could sum it up in one simple word. Macroeconomics. Plus of course man's ignorance.

I trust no one who complains about it for they then do the same for they are apparant enemies yet history shows those who take over do yet the same again.

You think I'm against you? You think me carrying on reading more and more links will show me what I don't know?

They will merely show me more madness.

I am neither for nor against you or anything you say. I am however for wisdom and that entails accepting all that is and letting it be. Only then can you pogress towards good discussion with proposals of possible solutions.

There is no escape from the fact that transcending the normal way of pointing out how bad it all is is necessary and that is just a starting point.

You can say what you want about me for in truth I am you and you are me and thus you are only attacking yourself. The same applies to Aikido so how could one be better than the other? Yours is in me and mine is in you. Until we know this then it's the same ol same ol drama being played out leading from one disater to another with the apparancy of them and us.

It's a nice sunny day today over here.

Regards.G.
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Old 04-09-2011, 10:58 AM   #278
Dan Rubin
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
I wish I could find the thread, now, but it won't come up on search. I think it was called "Motorcycle Girl in the Nuclear Wasteland," or "Motorcycle Girl in Chernobyl." But nothing comes up and I haven't been able to locate the thread.

In that thread, however, someone told me, "The fact that you believe that a nuclear power plant can explode shows just how little you understand about the subject." Or something about like that.
Here it is: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12841

at post #49.
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Old 04-09-2011, 12:05 PM   #279
Lorien Lowe
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Graham, something just occurred to me: are you stoned? Your entire point could be summed up with the phrase, 'It's all good, man.' Except for the passive-aggressive self righteousness, you would fit in perfectly with the Emerald Triangle culture around here.

Edit: come to think of it, at least half the stoner population here thinks that they're enlightened, too, so you'd fit in well in that respect too.

Last edited by Lorien Lowe : 04-09-2011 at 12:09 PM.
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Old 04-09-2011, 12:16 PM   #280
graham christian
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
Graham, something just occurred to me: are you stoned? Your entire point could be summed up with the phrase, 'It's all good, man.' Except for the passive-aggressive self righteousness, you would fit in perfectly with the Emerald Triangle culture around here.

Edit: come to think of it, at least half the stoner population here thinks that they're enlightened, too, so you'd fit in well in that respect too.
Sounds like the other side of the coin to me. You either get hypercritical and fanatical or you get stoned.

Neither are very wise.

G.
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Old 04-09-2011, 01:46 PM   #281
akiy
 
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Last warning, folks -- watch your tone.

-- Jun

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Old 04-09-2011, 03:46 PM   #282
graham christian
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Mmmm. Bit surprised there. However, I shall put my view of optimum solution into practice here.

Respect to all. I bow out.

Regards.G.
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Old 04-09-2011, 08:23 PM   #283
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
I honestly don't think that they're capable of thinking that far ahead. I think that the repeal of Glass-Seagall was more on the order of, 'oh, boy, now we can get rich quick and screw anyone who isn't a banker,' than, 'oh, oil is running down so we need to plan for it.' Just as morally bankrupt, but far less clever.

Edit: Tenyu, have you read Collapse, by Jared Diamond?
I know very few people believe the real policy makers know what they're doing. They've had access to all the pertinent data for decades though. I don't think it takes much intelligence to figure out how to maximize swindling the public. It wouldn't have been in their interests to set the stage for economic collapse back in the late 90's if cheap energy(energy above a certain EROEI threshold) were going to be around for any considerable time than it has. With literally all the money in the world(currency issuers) they can afford as many think-tanks they want to work through and propose the details. Currency monopolies wouldn't have maintained themselves over centuries if they weren't capable of foresight.

I haven't read Collapse, what did you like about it?
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Old 04-10-2011, 02:20 AM   #284
Lorien Lowe
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Well, the money isn't infinite (in the sense of transmittable value) because at some point it starts to inflate, even dollars.

What I liked about collapse was the examination of the social structures that led to collapse in each civilization, and the examination of the reactions to the problems by each culture. There's also an examination of the geographic and environmental factors that lead to a civilization's demise.

So far, we're looking a lot like Mayans.
edit: guessing EROEI ~= energy recovered over energy invested?
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Old 04-10-2011, 05:45 PM   #285
Tenyu
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Lorien,

I sent you a private message.
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Old 04-11-2011, 08:08 AM   #286
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
What I liked about collapse was the examination of the social structures that led to collapse in each civilization, and the examination of the reactions to the problems by each culture. There's also an examination of the geographic and environmental factors that lead to a civilization's demise.
MMmyeah, but there were cases in Collapse where Diamond really shows his tunnel vision -- probably most notably in his discussion of Rwanda. Let's ignore the history of racist colonial policites and the modern reality of hate politics, it's all about population density...
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Old 04-11-2011, 02:27 PM   #287
Lorien Lowe
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Another article on tar sands, this time in the U.S.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_oil_sands
I think that we *have* to start finding alternatives to stuff like this, or we're going to end up like over-populated bacteria in a petri dish.
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Old 04-11-2011, 08:50 PM   #288
Tenyu
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
The document, published on 7 April, advises against consuming rainwater and says vulnerable groups such as children and pregnant or breastfeeding women should avoid consuming vegetables with large leaves, fresh milk and creamy cheese.

Data for the west coast of the United States, which received the Fukushima radioactive fallout 6-10 days before France, reveals that levels of radioactive iodine-131 concentration are 8-10 times higher there, the institute says.
Link

Quote:
Radiation from Japan has been detected in drinking water in 13 more American cities, and cesium-137 has been found in American milk—in Montpelier, Vermont—for the first time since the Japan nuclear disaster began, according to data released by the Environmental Protection Agency late Friday.

Milk samples from Phoenix and Los Angeles contained iodine-131 at levels roughly equal to the maximum contaminant level permitted by EPA, the data shows. The Phoenix sample contained 3.2 picoCuries per liter of iodine-131. The Los Angeles sample contained 2.9. The EPA maximum contaminant level is 3.0
Link

from TOD:

Quote:
Don't worry, the levels of radiation:
"are below any levels of concern"
"do not pose a threat to human health"

By the way, did you already get your recommended dose today?

"The recommended level of 1,000 microsieverts excludes radiation from the natural environment and medical devices"

The spin continues:
"it does not affect people's health."
"safe levels"
"only miniscule amounts of radiation"
"we need not be worried"
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Old 04-12-2011, 09:21 AM   #289
Tenyu
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Must see video.
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Old 04-12-2011, 10:57 AM   #290
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

So given the information posted, what are you doing to address the risk? I seem to recall a link posted which gave a series of treatments of antioxidants along with washing fruits and vegetables in baking soda solution, but what else might one do if they were worried about undo amounts of radiation in their environment?

Last edited by mathewjgano : 04-12-2011 at 11:01 AM.
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Old 04-12-2011, 12:09 PM   #291
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Someone on TOD was saying best to abstain from grass-fed meat and dairy until three months after Fukushima stops spewing, but that was only in respect to iodine. Cesium and strontium have a 30 year half-life, I would assume within a year or two those will have passed through the food chain or settled in the soil by then as well.

Link

Benign-looking pictorial:
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Old 04-13-2011, 12:02 PM   #292
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Obviously, if you were in a room with a hydrogen combustion, it wasn't the kind of "combustion" that occurred at Fukushima. That one was an "explosion." It fairly destroyed the building.
Combustion is combustion. The only real difference between a science museum demonstration, the Hindenberg, and the hydrogen explosion at Fukushima is the quantity of hydrogen involved.

I've mostly abandoned this thread as it's become very boring. A PM would be more likely to catch my eye for anyone actually interested in my response.

But the evidence that the reactor vessel at Fukushima actually failed remains quite slim. In particular, the plutonium that was detected appears to be residue from atomic weapons testing -- you'd find it in your own backyard if you looked with sufficiently sensitive instruments, and it was present in Japan before the earthquake hit.

Katherine
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Old 04-13-2011, 02:00 PM   #293
mathewjgano
 
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Combustion is combustion. The only real difference between a science museum demonstration, the Hindenberg, and the hydrogen explosion at Fukushima is the quantity of hydrogen involved.

I've mostly abandoned this thread as it's become very boring. A PM would be more likely to catch my eye for anyone actually interested in my response.

But the evidence that the reactor vessel at Fukushima actually failed remains quite slim. In particular, the plutonium that was detected appears to be residue from atomic weapons testing -- you'd find it in your own backyard if you looked with sufficiently sensitive instruments, and it was present in Japan before the earthquake hit.

Katherine
Hi Katherine,
I got the feeling this thread just mostly ran its course on what can be said. I figured folks just decided to agree to disagree for the most part. What would make the thread less boring? It sounds like you think there's a lot more room for discussion on what happened and what that means as we move forward.
I heard yesterday that Japan has officially listed this at level 7, which is troubling to say the least. I'm sorry if you've already addressed this, but do you think this was an avoidable disaster? I do recall hearing about whistle-blowers who complained about safety precautions not being up to snuff some years(?) ago.
Also, could you point me to a source on the plutonium residue?
Take care,
Matt
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Old 04-13-2011, 02:18 PM   #294
David Orange
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Combustion is combustion. The only real difference between a science museum demonstration, the Hindenberg, and the hydrogen explosion at Fukushima is the quantity of hydrogen involved.
I think "the effect" was somewhat different. From many Japanese sources, including TEPCO, this particular hydrogen "combustion" may well have cracked the reactor containment vessel. In fact, TEPCO has said more than one of the containment vessels may have been breached.

Again, it should be clear to all that this nuclear plant "exploded."

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
But the evidence that the reactor vessel at Fukushima actually failed remains quite slim. In particular, the plutonium that was detected appears to be residue from atomic weapons testing -- you'd find it in your own backyard if you looked with sufficiently sensitive instruments, and it was present in Japan before the earthquake hit.
Despite TEPCO's numerous statements that the reactors may have been breached, if you want to hang with that "appearance," it's certainly your right, but with all the other statements from TEPCO and elsewhere, by insisting that the plutonium is all from old weapons tests, you "appear" like an ostrich burying its head.

Still, I don't see you volunteering to go over and demonstrate the safety of the situation by blogging from the exclusion zone.

But since you've weighed in on my old statement, how about a prediction on how long people will be excluded from a 25 mile radius of the plant?

One more week, maybe?

Or more like 1 to 10 years?

I seriously doubt any of those people will be going back to their perfectly good homes in less than 5 years.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 04-13-2011, 02:22 PM   #295
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
...do you think this was an avoidable disaster? I do recall hearing about whistle-blowers who complained about safety precautions not being up to snuff some years(?) ago.
They were warned seriously when this fiasco was in the planning stages. They were warned that the earthquakes could be larger and that tsunamis have historically been larger than the design parameters of the plant.

Whatever the design limits of a nuclear plant, whatever the "perfect storm" required to make it fail, nature can produce it.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Also, could you point me to a source on the plutonium residue?
I think it was the same government and nuclear plant operator that both have a history of minimizing and covering up nuclear accidents in Japan.

Best to you.

David

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Old 04-13-2011, 03:11 PM   #296
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Whatever the design limits of a nuclear plant, whatever the "perfect storm" required to make it fail, nature can produce it.
Hi David,

Absolutely. I've only learned a little of the geo-sciences, but what I did learn left me with the same impression.
I look at the events at Fukushima as a lesson in how those in charge were short-sighted. Clearly they missed something. Mistakes will happen, but when millions of people are potentially at risk, I would like to think no corners were cut.
Take care,
Matt
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Old 04-13-2011, 05:32 PM   #297
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Clearly they missed something. Mistakes will happen, but when millions of people are potentially at risk, I would like to think no corners were cut.
You can pretty much say of any accident, in hindsight, "they missed something". Hindsight is crystal clear; it's not always so helpful going forward. The plant's designers did incorporate safety features to address the fact that they were in a seismically active region -- they just didn't design for a big enough event. We can say that looking back -- but looking forward, what can we say? What's "big enough"? What decisions are based on the acknowledgment that you can never build the unsinkable ship, and what are "cutting corners"?
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Old 04-13-2011, 06:08 PM   #298
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
You can pretty much say of any accident, in hindsight, "they missed something". Hindsight is crystal clear; it's not always so helpful going forward. The plant's designers did incorporate safety features to address the fact that they were in a seismically active region -- they just didn't design for a big enough event.
I agree. Apart from anything which might indicate negligence, I'm just saying I think it's important to see how we can learn from it.

Quote:
We can say that looking back -- but looking forward, what can we say? What's "big enough"? What decisions are based on the acknowledgment that you can never build the unsinkable ship, and what are "cutting corners"?
I think these are the kind of tough questions that will get things going in the right direction. The failure I was thinking of had to do with projected risks. I'm not an expert, so my guess isn't worth a whole lot, but this kind of earthquake doesn't seem very surprising to me. If the earthquake risk was addressed, then it was material failure or some other failure. My point was that regardless of the specific causes, a shortcoming was discovered and that's what needs to be addressed, in my opinion. I'm interested in how that will be addressed, but I suppose time will have to tell on that.
I have a lot of faith in technology and the human ability to adapt. We cannot build an "unsinkable ship" but we can at least count the passengers and try to make life rafts for the lot of them.
Take care,
Matt
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Old 04-13-2011, 07:55 PM   #299
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
You can pretty much say of any accident, in hindsight, "they missed something". Hindsight is crystal clear; it's not always so helpful going forward.
The problem, Mary, is that the plant's designers were warned by geologists, before any construction began, that the region had a history not only of earthquakes but also of massive tsunamis, much larger than their seawall was designed for. There were ancient stone tablets in the area warning people not to build anything lower than that point and the Fukushima plant was well below that point. That was hardly hindsight. It was foresight and serious warnings ignored.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
The plant's designers did incorporate safety features to address the fact that they were in a seismically active region -- they just didn't design for a big enough event.
Why not? They were warned by the ancient tablets and they were warned by geologists. They chose to ignore those warnings. It's not hindsight to say they were wrong. They knew they were gambling with the lives of millions of people. They were more concerned with profit.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
We can say that looking back -- but looking forward, what can we say? What's "big enough"? What decisions are based on the acknowledgment that you can never build the unsinkable ship, and what are "cutting corners"?
If you are wrong about the "unsinkable" ship, only those who choose to ride it are endangered. These people chose for everyone else and now they will be too broke to pay for the damage they have caused. They're planning to give each affected community $240,000.00 for their losses.

Looking forward, then, what can we say? We can say that nuclear plants (in particular, those using uranium [or in the case of Fukushima, uranium and plutonium]) are too dangerous to build on this planet.

Last edited by David Orange : 04-13-2011 at 07:58 PM.

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Old 04-13-2011, 08:15 PM   #300
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
The failure I was thinking of had to do with projected risks. I'm not an expert, so my guess isn't worth a whole lot, but this kind of earthquake doesn't seem very surprising to me. If the earthquake risk was addressed, then it was material failure or some other failure.
Well, the earthquake was probably up to the very limit the plant could withstand, but the tsunami was what did them in. And they were warned specifically and repeatedly that historical tsunamis had been much larger than they were designing for. This can only be considered blatant negligence.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
My point was that regardless of the specific causes, a shortcoming was discovered and that's what needs to be addressed, in my opinion. I'm interested in how that will be addressed, but I suppose time will have to tell on that.
The only answer is that the perfect storm is always out there, so we must not build anything that would cause a greater catastrophe than the storm itself.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I have a lot of faith in technology and the human ability to adapt. We cannot build an "unsinkable ship" but we can at least count the passengers and try to make life rafts for the lot of them.
I prefer Buckminster Fuller's perfect ship: the very planet we all were born on, outfitted with everything we need to go through time. It's the salesman's art to make us feel that what we have by right is never good enough--that we always have a critical and urgent need for whatever boondoggle he has to sell.

It's a shame, and it always leads to disaster.

I wonder if, in the frenzy to outdo the good thing we had, we have already damaged it beyond its ability to sustain us.

Best wishes.

David

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