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Old 04-08-2011, 07:15 AM   #26
Walter Martindale
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

I suspect that a lot of no-touch throws require slightly more than 0.15 seconds for someone to realize that Master wants him/her to react.
Oh, he's moving
Oh, I'm supposed to fall
Oh, I'm taking ukemi.
or if Master is behind, maybe he or she exhales a certain way so there's an audible cue that uke is supposed to collapse in a heap of jelly.
Lots of movement/reaction/response time research has shown that if you change what someone is trying to react to, it takes about 140 to 150 milliseconds for the person to perceive, process, and respond. They've done it mainly in professional sport where (for example) goal tenders have to respond to someone tipping a hockey puck on its way to the goal - Goalie sees puck on its way to net, starts to react, and if there's no preceding clue that the puck is going to be deflected (i.e., a stick in his/her field of vision moving toward the path of the puck with the intent of deflecting it), it takes about 140-150 ms (a few people are faster) to see the deflection, process the fact that it has deflected, and send out a signal to the muscles that a change of direction is needed. I've long ago discarded the text books otherwise I'd give you some citations. It's the research that they use to set up false-start signals in international track competition - if the pressure on the start block in the sprint comes before a certain amount of time has occurred, they know that the runner was starting to move before the sound of the gun could have been transmitted through the air, pressed on the ear-drums, vibrated the ear-bones, stimulated the nerves in the ear, reached the brain, and been sent out to the muscles in a co-ordinated explosion of effort.

Oh, gosh, sensei wants me to fall... I can see from 3 meters away that he's extending Ki so I'd better cringe and go jello..

However - if Master (or partner in training, for that matter) is about to take my head off, I'm hitting the ground to get out of the way of the strike/neck crank/whatever. It's either that or get hurt. That of course depends on my being able to perceive the danger in time to do something about getting out of the way. - I get hit more often than others because in the 140-150 millisecond response time stuff, I'm a little on the slower side - or I was when I was in my 20s, and 30 years hasn't sped me up.

Last edited by Walter Martindale : 04-08-2011 at 07:22 AM.
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Old 04-08-2011, 08:21 AM   #27
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
However - if Master (or partner in training, for that matter) is about to take my head off, I'm hitting the ground to get out of the way of the strike/neck crank/whatever. It's either that or get hurt.
There are more options than going airborne for avoiding a strike.

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Old 04-08-2011, 09:46 AM   #28
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

Always reminds me of this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcGbyRuA6SE

Here's a guy doing what most people say takes chi, ki, magic, whatever and claims to be doing none of those things, just basic mentalist/magician tricks.

I should state that I'm a big fan of Derren Brown

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 04-08-2011, 09:59 AM   #29
Walter Martindale
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
There are more options than going airborne for avoiding a strike.
Yes. there's the 'if I do this there are these hundred options' - or one brief example bashed out in a bit of a hurry.
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Old 04-08-2011, 10:34 AM   #30
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

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Charles Hill wrote: View Post
When my sister was in university many years ago, she saved a dog from the pound, Bonnie, who was big and a bit aggressive. Bonnie had a bad habit of chasing cats and my sister was worried what might happen if Bonnie ever caught one. One day, Bonnie saw a rather large cat sitting on a porch and took off after it. This cat not only didn't run, it stood up ready to fight. Bonnie saw this and hit the brakes, ending up tumbling into a bush. She then walked back to my sister with her tail between her legs. If this cat could do it, I imagine O'Sensei could too.

I recommend checking out the Systema teacher, Mikhail Ryabko's DVD, Beyond the Physical. Mr. Ryabko explains the "psychic" work eloquently and gives a bunch of drills to do.

Alex Kostic shows/explains some of it in the clip a couple of minutes in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_jboskipAI
Beautiful examples bear repeating!
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Old 04-08-2011, 12:07 PM   #31
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

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Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
Yes. there's the 'if I do this there are these hundred options' - or one brief example bashed out in a bit of a hurry.
Not really sure about what you mean, but your "binary" approach (go airborne or get hurt) leaves out the duck, parry, block, counter striking, etc options available for when you see an incoming strike. People do what are conditioned to do.

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Old 04-08-2011, 12:22 PM   #32
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Here's a guy doing what most people say takes chi, ki, magic, whatever and claims to be doing none of those things, just basic mentalist/magician tricks.
He says he's doing mentalism to confuse you.

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Old 04-08-2011, 12:42 PM   #33
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

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Well maybe he has. I also watched a clip on Youtube the other night of a baby laughing, it made me laugh - that effected me.

Maybe it is the Quantum Effect whereby one particle despite having no physical conatct with another effects it. A proven scientific principle.

Perhaps we should enlist a quantum physicist to look at it all?
Hi Matt.
I agree with no touch throwing but the type you describe as someone feet away waving his hand and the uke falling over I disagree with as far as Aikido goes.

The no touch throw I am talking about and consider a great part of Aikido is kokyunage albeit an 'advanced' kokyunage.

The scene you describe I have seen on the net and it's called Ki. This I disagree with and yet if I was to allow the possibility of it being real then I would put it under the heading of mesmerism.

Advanced kokyu gets accused of uke collusion yet that just shows me a lack of reality on kokyu by those who think that. On the other hand those mesmeric demonstrations are due to a collusion taught to the students much like a hypnotist telling you what to do.

So quantum physics may be able to verify the effect of Kokyu, which I may add follows a principle of joining and being with rather than standing at a distance. However a hypnotist or some expert in mesmerism I sure could explain your example.

That's my take on it.

Regards.G.
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Old 04-08-2011, 01:39 PM   #34
Walter Martindale
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Not really sure about what you mean, but your "binary" approach (go airborne or get hurt) leaves out the duck, parry, block, counter striking, etc options available for when you see an incoming strike. People do what are conditioned to do.
"Bashed out" is a way of saying "typed"...one example, typed, and I was in a hurry at the time.

Yes, there are lots of things a person can do to not get hit. Hit first with 168 grains of copper jacketed lead from 900 m is a good option but that's not the context. Another real good option is to not be where the hit is aimed at when it gets there. When someone's on the street trying to hit me I'd rather be sitting inside, enjoying a nice glass of Guinness or Murphy's, or a Dalwhinnie, or Lagavulin, or a Talisker, or, or...
However - the context was - if "sensei" or "master" is about to take my head off (in an aikido practice), I'm taking ukemi. Ukemi can be hitting the ground (as I mentioned), joining (but that might defeat sensei's demonstration of the technique - or it might just help sensei demonstrate the technique, depending on how the blend/join goes) or countering, but... that wasn't the point.

The point was - the guy's actually got to be a real threat to make contact for me to crank up the ukemi, or he's just waving his arms. Mentalists aside, people can wave their arms all they want until the maai is such that contact is possible...
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Old 04-10-2011, 05:04 AM   #35
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

Is it possible, that, if Bruce Lee could do a one-inch punch, O sensei could do a 1cm throw?

Not exactly no touch, just concentrated force?
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Old 04-10-2011, 06:51 AM   #36
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

I have seen one sensei do what I would call no touch throws, but these were cases of the sensei tricking his students into tripping or losing their balance with his movements, not the use of telekinetic ki. He makes no claims of this being reliable martial technique.

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Old 04-10-2011, 07:24 PM   #37
Larry Feldman
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

I had heard all the 'legend' and mystical discussions about no touch throws. At Shodan (Ki Society) I started training with a senior student of Imaizumi, and the man himself. One of the things that impressed me was that no touch throws were not just talked about as mystical stuff but practiced as a more finesse version of some techniques. Plainly done and practiced. A more sophisticated version of your usual stuff.

The thing that was very interesting, was that the techniques as practiced did not change when done no touch style. The timimg and tempo did, but the techniques themselves really did not.

Another difference from what I had been training in, is that Imiazumi does emphasize moving techniques from the start of your training. The transition from moving style or 'come to hold' made the transistion to no touch natural and logical. It was not done on every technique, but where you could execute a no touch, it was based on being held, or someone coming to hold you. The other part of this approach was that if you moved to slow (or late) in a no touch, all that happenned was that uke made contact, and you executed the technique the same way.

From a strictly physical standpoint, the no touch throw puts you in a place to smash someone in the face or head - so they usually move their head or stop it from moving, the feet continue forward and you get a throw. I jokingly tell my classs, that the 'missing' O'Sensei video's are when he was smashing all the ukes, whom now move their heads to avoid being hit, and falling from the loss of balance. Truthfully most had trained in other arts, and understood the implictions of a fist being waived at your head.
For the student who doesn't or can't react - we would typically lay your palm on his head and move it out of the way for him/her, knocking them down without hitting them.

From an internal training standpoint, if you get a committed attack, you should feel like the uke has 'radar lock' on you and you lead him from that connection.

If it is of real interest to you, I suggest you find someone who can teach it in the sturucture that Imaizumi, and his students do. But it will change your Aikido.
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Old 04-11-2011, 02:55 AM   #38
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

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I had heard all the 'legend' and mystical discussions about no touch throws. At Shodan (Ki Society) I started training with a senior student of Imaizumi, and the man himself. One of the things that impressed me was that no touch throws were not just talked about as mystical stuff but practiced as a more finesse version of some techniques. Plainly done and practiced. A more sophisticated version of your usual stuff.

The thing that was very interesting, was that the techniques as practiced did not change when done no touch style. The timimg and tempo did, but the techniques themselves really did not.

Another difference from what I had been training in, is that Imiazumi does emphasize moving techniques from the start of your training. The transition from moving style or 'come to hold' made the transistion to no touch natural and logical. It was not done on every technique, but where you could execute a no touch, it was based on being held, or someone coming to hold you. The other part of this approach was that if you moved to slow (or late) in a no touch, all that happenned was that uke made contact, and you executed the technique the same way.

From a strictly physical standpoint, the no touch throw puts you in a place to smash someone in the face or head - so they usually move their head or stop it from moving, the feet continue forward and you get a throw. I jokingly tell my classs, that the 'missing' O'Sensei video's are when he was smashing all the ukes, whom now move their heads to avoid being hit, and falling from the loss of balance. Truthfully most had trained in other arts, and understood the implictions of a fist being waived at your head.
For the student who doesn't or can't react - we would typically lay your palm on his head and move it out of the way for him/her, knocking them down without hitting them.

From an internal training standpoint, if you get a committed attack, you should feel like the uke has 'radar lock' on you and you lead him from that connection.

If it is of real interest to you, I suggest you find someone who can teach it in the sturucture that Imaizumi, and his students do. But it will change your Aikido.
I see where you coming from here and I believe that some are getting confused over the term throw. You are stating here if I am reading right, that if a person is moving to avoid a strike and looses balance in this action and lands on the floor, this is classed as a throw. Where as others are stating that to throw someone with a throwing technique you can only do this through making contact?
Personally if someone was attempting to strike me I'm not going to lean back in such a way as to loose balance to avoid it, I'm going to intercept that attack/block it and strike/throw them.
I wouldn't class what you are saying as a throw, as you state you are attempting to strike someone in the face.

Last edited by GB-UK : 04-11-2011 at 03:00 AM.
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Old 04-11-2011, 04:44 AM   #39
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

I have personally experienced and done no touch throws.

No magic.

IMHO, its about timing.

One way is easy with attackers who over commit and extend. Technically they are depending on you being there to get hit and support their attack. If at the last second you move off the attack line, there is no support and the person falls by their own momentum.

The other timing is by not moving too fast or too slow. If I irimi too fast, I hit the guy. Too slow, and they intercept it. A middle speed allows the mind to detect it and attempt to evade it. The evasion takes the balance.

Just my take from my own experience.

Lynn Seiser PhD
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We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 04-11-2011, 05:13 AM   #40
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

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I have personally experienced and done no touch throws.

No magic.

IMHO, its about timing.

One way is easy with attackers who over commit and extend. Technically they are depending on you being there to get hit and support their attack. If at the last second you move off the attack line, there is no support and the person falls by their own momentum.

I see what you are saying here but you are not throwing them, they are falling because they have over extended and lost balance.
The other timing is by not moving too fast or too slow. If I irimi too fast, I hit the guy. Too slow, and they intercept it. A middle speed allows the mind to detect it and attempt to evade it. The evasion takes the balance.

Just my take from my own experience.
Again I see what you mean but are you throwing them or are they falling because of over extension? Most people with a minimum of training in most martial arts are trained to not over extend so this may not work on all people.
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Old 04-11-2011, 06:33 AM   #41
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

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Gornall Bell wrote: View Post
Again I see what you mean but are you throwing them or are they falling because of over extension? Most people with a minimum of training in most martial arts are trained to not over extend so this may not work on all people.
Gornall:

These types of "throws" even work with well-trained martial artists. A lot of the unbalancing has to do with teaching yourself to move in a manner that the opponent cannot perceive until it is too late.

Regards,

marc abrams
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Old 04-11-2011, 07:10 AM   #42
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

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Gornall:

These types of "throws" even work with well-trained martial artists. A lot of the unbalancing has to do with teaching yourself to move in a manner that the opponent cannot perceive until it is too late.

Regards,

marc abrams
And only seem to work on the students of the person who has mastered these special moves?
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Old 04-11-2011, 07:21 AM   #43
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

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Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
I have personally experienced and done no touch throws.

No magic.

IMHO, its about timing.

One way is easy with attackers who over commit and extend. Technically they are depending on you being there to get hit and support their attack. If at the last second you move off the attack line, there is no support and the person falls by their own momentum.

The other timing is by not moving too fast or too slow. If I irimi too fast, I hit the guy. Too slow, and they intercept it. A middle speed allows the mind to detect it and attempt to evade it. The evasion takes the balance.

Just my take from my own experience.
This is the kind of "no-touch" throw I have seen in action. There's no telekinesis at work here.

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Old 04-11-2011, 07:39 AM   #44
Nicholas Eschenbruch
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

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And only seem to work on the students of the person who has mastered these special moves?
IMHO, they "work" on those who have been martially trained to avoid impact. If someone prefers to walk into the impact, well, they turn into atemi or 'hard-touch' throws - as Marc outlined further above. In this sense, IMHO again, there is no 'no-touch throw' as a distinct category of throw, just an intelligent reflex response on uke's part to a real threat. (and of course (1) lots of collusive bullshit and (2) some 'mind-stuff' I have not experienced myself but credible sources tell my people like Ushiro Kenji can do it.)

PS: Gornall, please give my regards to Darren.
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Old 04-11-2011, 07:49 AM   #45
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

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And only seem to work on the students of the person who has mastered these special moves?
Gornall:

I appreciate the sarcasm in that I typically enjoy and use that sense of humor myself. I then take things one step further and go out and find out if I am right or I am wrong. Let's see, I still study directly with Imaizumi Sensei and I study directly with Ushiro Sensei. The first is easy, I just go to NYC. The second person entails me going to Japan several times a year and bringing him here several times a year. In other words, my initial skepticism and base mindset were wrong. Funny things is, both of those teachers seem to have no problems demonstrating those skills on anybody. If the person has not acted in a self-preserving manner, then techniques are simply not necessary..... Please feel free to test people out for yourself. I would particularly recommend that you test Ushiro Sensei out. I always love to watch a good show ! Venture out across the pond, Ushiro Sensei will be at my dojo next week. I am sure that you will have no problem disproving his "skills". Then again, if you are wrong, I am sure you would have no problem acknowledging that as well.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
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Old 04-11-2011, 08:51 AM   #46
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

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Gornall Bell wrote: View Post
Again I see what you mean but are you throwing them or are they falling because of over extension? Most people with a minimum of training in most martial arts are trained to not over extend so this may not work on all people.
IMHO, its relatively easy to get even trained people (except at rather high levels) to over extend.

So yes, I tend not to throw them but let them fall because of their own body momentum, mechanics, and alignment. Also because either their mind really wants to hit me or their mind really doesn't want to be hit by me.

Lynn Seiser PhD
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Old 04-11-2011, 10:10 AM   #47
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

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Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
IMHO, its relatively easy to get even trained people (except at rather high levels) to over extend.

So yes, I tend not to throw them but let them fall because of their own body momentum, mechanics, and alignment. Also because either their mind really wants to hit me or their mind really doesn't want to be hit by me.
Is this where the confusion lies with no touch throws? That the no touch throws are not actually throws but people using ukemi to get out of the way of being hit themselves?
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Old 04-11-2011, 10:17 AM   #48
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

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Gornall:

I appreciate the sarcasm in that I typically enjoy and use that sense of humor myself. I then take things one step further and go out and find out if I am right or I am wrong. Let's see, I still study directly with Imaizumi Sensei and I study directly with Ushiro Sensei. The first is easy, I just go to NYC. The second person entails me going to Japan several times a year and bringing him here several times a year. In other words, my initial skepticism and base mindset were wrong. Funny things is, both of those teachers seem to have no problems demonstrating those skills on anybody. If the person has not acted in a self-preserving manner, then techniques are simply not necessary..... Please feel free to test people out for yourself. I would particularly recommend that you test Ushiro Sensei out. I always love to watch a good show ! Venture out across the pond, Ushiro Sensei will be at my dojo next week. I am sure that you will have no problem disproving his "skills". Then again, if you are wrong, I am sure you would have no problem acknowledging that as well.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
Sorry if you think I was being sarcastic. But I've seen a lot of so called masters in TCMA's whose techniques work fine on their own students but when a non student is introduced they fail miserably. For example there was a video doing the rounds of Leung Ting (wing tsun GM) being owned by a member of an invited audience to one of his demo's, not to mention all the Gracie challenge vids that can be found on you-tube.
Is this the Ushiro Sensei you were talking about? If it is I think that is someone I would really like to train under at some point!
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Old 04-11-2011, 12:08 PM   #49
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

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Gornall Bell wrote: View Post
Sorry if you think I was being sarcastic. But I've seen a lot of so called masters in TCMA's whose techniques work fine on their own students but when a non student is introduced they fail miserably. For example there was a video doing the rounds of Leung Ting (wing tsun GM) being owned by a member of an invited audience to one of his demo's, not to mention all the Gracie challenge vids that can be found on you-tube.
Is this the Ushiro Sensei you were talking about? If it is I think that is someone I would really like to train under at some point!
Gornall:

My apologies for misinterpreting. The Ushiro Sensei in that video is the person I train under. I fully agree with you regarding a degree of complicity that can occur within a system. I always look to see if it can work with someone without any experience or knowledge as to what will happen.

Regards,

marc abrams
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Old 04-11-2011, 01:00 PM   #50
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

This guy's 'no-touch' throws:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNAWff9Daqg

...are obviously not what are being talked about by certain people, who are referring to what happens when a fist or arm comes flying at your face, and due to possessing a very wise outlook, and instinct for self-preservation, you move, and take ukemi - because you'll get hit in the face, otherwise.

If you stand there, with your best posture imaginable, not over-extended, and I swing a sword at your neck, will you move - or will you stand there and 'make me throw you'?
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