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Old 04-03-2011, 03:19 PM   #26
JO
Dojo: Aikikai de l'Université Laval
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Re: Need advice?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Yes but only minior differences in the use of the body. If you're taking down someone in a professional context you're not doing too much different to someone with an intent to kill, physically speaking. The principles of pins and take downs don't differ with the intent of their use because the body doesn't change. Homo sapiends tend to be very much a like physically.

I mean I can do irimi nage in several ways: I can slam someone onto their head with massive force or I can gently take them down, but at the basic level what I'm doing is irimi nage. If you can do one you can do the rest.
There are huge differences in intent that change how you move and why. There are also huge differences in how the "attacker" will move and also in the likelihood of them being armed that change strategies greatly. In some of the scenarios mentioned that you want to group together, a devastating blow to your "opponents" head may be a good way to save your life, in another it will be seen as escalation and land you in jail. Training for the "street" means thinking about these issues and how they affect how you react and then putting this into practice. Saying it's all the same and restricting oneself to strengthening technique isn't sufficient in my opinion.

There are huge differences in mentality and tactics between self defence and fighting. If you want to know the difference, ask yourself the fairly simple question "Will this get me in jail". The police won't care much who threw the first punch. They'll care more about whether you restricted yourself to doing what was needed to stay alive (starting by trying to leave). Do you train to react proportionally to the situation and to de-escalate. Restraining someone gently is usually harder, not easier, than beating them down.

Final note. Of course an online discussion will tend to go off into minutia, all you can put on the screen are words. Working on and comparing technique, and feeling the efficacy of technique, is best done in the flesh.

Jonathan Olson
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Old 04-03-2011, 04:54 PM   #27
lbb
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Re: Need advice?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
All the above situations differ only in the differ only in the minutiae. Unless you're insisting that there is a radical difference between how a single individual would fight based on if he was a prisoner, in a bar or beating his girlfriend up.
I could be wrong, but I tend to think there is a radical difference in these situations. It isn't all body mechanics; there's the reason why you're fighting, too. I think motive and situation have a lot to do with who you're going to be fighting, what you're going to be willing to do to them and what you're going to be willing to risk in return.

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Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
It's a straw man argument designed so Aikidoka don't have to seriously answer questions about Aikido as a martial art.
I think the correct term would be "diversion" rather than "straw man argument (a preposterous argument put forth for the simple purpose of knocking it down), but I was offering neither a diversionary argument nor a strawman argument. I was talking about a distinction that I think has substantial material consequences that are relevant to a self-defense situation.

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Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
People fight in two basic ways, they throw strikes, occasionally with weapons and they wrestle.
That's quite likely true, but I wasn't really talking about mechanics. However, if you are of the belief that it all boils down to mechanics and nothing else ultimately matters, I don't think we've got a basis for discussion, so I'll respectfully bow out.
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Old 04-03-2011, 04:56 PM   #28
lbb
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Re: Need advice?

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Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Are they? If someone came to you with two black eyes and said they'd had their wallet stolen by two men would you ask "Yes but were you in a fight?"
No, but what does that have to do with anything?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
The point is quite simple: We all know what a fight is until we try and fit Aikido into a fighting, dare I say martial, context. Then mysteriously many Aikidoka suddenly have no clue.
Speak for yourself. Aikido is the fourth art I've studied, and I've been asking this same question all along.
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Old 04-04-2011, 05:21 AM   #29
Ketsan
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Re: Need advice?

Quote:
Jonathan Olson wrote: View Post
There are huge differences in intent that change how you move and why. There are also huge differences in how the "attacker" will move and also in the likelihood of them being armed that change strategies greatly. In some of the scenarios mentioned that you want to group together, a devastating blow to your "opponents" head may be a good way to save your life, in another it will be seen as escalation and land you in jail. Training for the "street" means thinking about these issues and how they affect how you react and then putting this into practice. Saying it's all the same and restricting oneself to strengthening technique isn't sufficient in my opinion.

There are huge differences in mentality and tactics between self defence and fighting. If you want to know the difference, ask yourself the fairly simple question "Will this get me in jail". The police won't care much who threw the first punch. They'll care more about whether you restricted yourself to doing what was needed to stay alive (starting by trying to leave). Do you train to react proportionally to the situation and to de-escalate. Restraining someone gently is usually harder, not easier, than beating them down.

Final note. Of course an online discussion will tend to go off into minutia, all you can put on the screen are words. Working on and comparing technique, and feeling the efficacy of technique, is best done in the flesh.
Care to outline the differences in tactics between self-defence and fighting then?
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Old 04-04-2011, 06:09 AM   #30
Ketsan
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Re: Need advice?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I could be wrong, but I tend to think there is a radical difference in these situations. It isn't all body mechanics; there's the reason why you're fighting, too. I think motive and situation have a lot to do with who you're going to be fighting, what you're going to be willing to do to them and what you're going to be willing to risk in return.
But that has nothing to do with the effectiveness of the art. If someone asks if the art is effective "Well it depends on the reason why you're fighting" doesn't answer the question. If I made the statement that MMA was only effective if you were fighting for money and if you weren't fighting for money then none of MMA's techniques would work how seriously do you think I'd be taken?

Quote:
I think the correct term would be "diversion" rather than "straw man argument (a preposterous argument put forth for the simple purpose of knocking it down), but I was offering neither a diversionary argument nor a strawman argument. I was talking about a distinction that I think has substantial material consequences that are relevant to a self-defense situation.
Maybe but not to the art you're learning.

Quote:
That's quite likely true, but I wasn't really talking about mechanics. However, if you are of the belief that it all boils down to mechanics and nothing else ultimately matters, I don't think we've got a basis for discussion, so I'll respectfully bow out.
Until we're presented with an actual situation we have nothing to say other than what the mechanics allow us to do. The discussion is after all about what the art will mechanically allow one person to do to another, what you will learn in training. There is no discussion beyond that.

For instance we can say that BJJ will allow a person to take down and submit anyone who does not have superior training in BJJ. BJJ can therefore be said to work. End of discussion. Talking about all the different types of fights and why they're caused and who starts them and how you wouldn't want to respond to them in exactly the same way has zero bearing on the BJJers ability to execute a take down and stick a guy in a Kimura.
Only a discussion about the mechanics of BJJ will tell us if can actually do it in the first place which is what the question was about in the first place.
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Old 04-04-2011, 07:32 AM   #31
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: Need advice?

I think Alex has a good point!

And if we look at the OP's question in that light then:

If you you look at the mechanics of the movements and techniques then there are groups that practice aikido that I think doesn't work. That is, the techniques do not do what they are thought to do.

And there is also aikido that when you look at the mechanics does work.

And often you can find both in the same town. So it can be a good art but there's also plenty of fairy magic going around, too. :P

I thik if you have a bit of experience in other arts it's actually not that difficult to tell the two apart. So the advice of visiting several dojo is a good one.

I've trained with people who do judo, wing chu, boxing or kempo. All of them bigger and stronger than me and better fighters than me, too. If we were to fight I'm quite sure I'd lose. And still they had no problem practicing together with me and working on aikido techniques, because we were working on principles and mechanics.

Pauliina
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Old 04-04-2011, 07:33 AM   #32
JO
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Re: Need advice?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Care to outline the differences in tactics between self-defence and fighting then?
I find that this site makes a better job of laying out the differences than I can. For the record I agree with nearly all of the points made.

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com...lfdefense.html

Look especially to the "Training to Fight" section near the bottom of the page.

Jonathan Olson
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Old 04-04-2011, 07:43 AM   #33
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Re: Need advice?

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Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
But that has nothing to do with the effectiveness of the art. If someone asks if the art is effective "Well it depends on the reason why you're fighting" doesn't answer the question.
Of course it doesn't. How long is a string, Alex?
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Old 04-04-2011, 09:21 AM   #34
Ketsan
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Re: Need advice?

Quote:
Jonathan Olson wrote: View Post
I find that this site makes a better job of laying out the differences than I can. For the record I agree with nearly all of the points made.

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com...lfdefense.html

Look especially to the "Training to Fight" section near the bottom of the page.
Excellent now tell me based on that if Aikido works in a fight.
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Old 04-04-2011, 09:23 AM   #35
Ketsan
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Re: Need advice?

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Of course it doesn't. How long is a string, Alex?
Right so if it doesn't answer the question why did you answer the question with it?

How have we got from "Does Aikido work in a fight" to
Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
It isn't all body mechanics; there's the reason why you're fighting, too.
?

Last edited by Ketsan : 04-04-2011 at 09:29 AM.
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Old 04-04-2011, 09:37 AM   #36
Basia Halliop
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Re: Need advice?

I don't really understand why the body mechanics would necessarily be the same in different kinds of altercations.

E.g. a cop trying to arrest someone has to pin them, hold them down long enough to handcuff them, and may also have to do so without punching them hard or twisting their joints hard enough to dislocate anything. They may be working in a pair or group of cops. They likely don't know whether the person is armed or not. They also need to keep the person from running away. They are fairly likely to have 'instigated' the interaction.

Someone fighting may e.g. have a goal to either pin the person or hit them hard enough to get them to go away. Or they may be looking for a verbal surrender. The other person running away would generally mean success (while for the cop it would mean failure). The degree to which it's OK or even desirable to injure the opponent might be a personal choice. There are a lot of unknowns regarding friends on either side who might show up suddenly, weapons, etc.

A woman defending herself against a larger man (we'll assume we're at the moment when he's physically attacking her and not threatening) -- her goal is to get his hands off her body long enough to give herself space to get a head start running away. If they're indoors or in a confined space she may also have to deal with attempts to block her escape route. She doesn't need to pin him, injure him, get him to run away, or prevent him from running away. Of the three scenarios she's also the most likely to have an opponent that's significantly larger and stronger than her.

Not that the situations have nothing in common or that there wouldn't be any correlation at all in a person's effectiveness in one situation vs another... But personally I think the differences are interesting and not just a matter of quibbling....
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Old 04-04-2011, 10:04 AM   #37
lbb
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Re: Need advice?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Right so if it doesn't answer the question why did you answer the question with it?
Because when the question doesn't provide enough information, there can't be a good answer. It's just like asking "How long is a string?" What's wrong, Alex, why won't you answer that question? Because it can't be answered from the information given. QED.
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Old 04-04-2011, 10:32 AM   #38
Ketsan
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Re: Need advice?

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
I don't really understand why the body mechanics would necessarily be the same in different kinds of altercations.
Well lets go back to the examples Mary used. What is the practical difference, if any, between a prisioner throwing a punch and an abusive partner throwing a punch? What is it about the actions of the attacker that make these two different kinds of altercation requiring, presumably, two different sets of training?

I'd argue that there is no difference. These are not different kinds of altercations; they're the same kind of altercation happing in two different contexts. Even the bar brawl is essentially the same as the abusive partner and the prisioner. A fight has broken out, kicks, punches and grappling are being used. That's the situation.

The OP wants to know how useful Aikido would be at dealing with these situations so what do we say?

"Well irimi nage would be useful if a guy is trying to punch you in a bar but not if your partner is trying to punch you" or "Ikkyo only works if you're a prison officer being assaulted by a prisioner."

Does this make any kind of sense? Id say no. The mechanics are the same in every situation be it a bar brawl or dealing with an abusive parter. The only thing that varies is the degree to which the techniques, the mechanics, are used to inflict harm.

Then later on after the dust is settled someone pontificates over wheather it was a fight or self defence which apparently has some bearing over whether irimi nage or ikkyo work.
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Old 04-04-2011, 10:40 AM   #39
Ketsan
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Re: Need advice?

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Because when the question doesn't provide enough information, there can't be a good answer. It's just like asking "How long is a string?" What's wrong, Alex, why won't you answer that question? Because it can't be answered from the information given. QED.
No a piece of string, potentially, can be any length from infinately long to a couple of molecules long. Aikido can either be judged to be reasonably reliable at taking people down in altercations or not.

Hence I have already answered that Aikido does work in a fight.
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Old 04-04-2011, 11:15 AM   #40
JO
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Re: Need advice?

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Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Excellent now tell me based on that if Aikido works in a fight.
I don't feel I can answer your question as simply as you would like, because I think such aswers are misleading. But I will break it down into questions I can answer categorically, according to my opinion of course.

Are techniques and principles from aikido applicable in a fight? YES

Is somebody better able to handle themselves in a fight after training in aikido than before? YES

Is aikido an efficient way to prepare for a fight? NO (I would look to arts where people actually fight for that)

Does aikido train people to fight? NO (Taking into account the definition of "fight" given in the link I posted, I would say that aikido is specifically about training to not fight, even in situations where others would consider fighting an appropriate response).

Jonathan Olson
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Old 04-04-2011, 12:17 PM   #41
Diana Frese
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Re: Need advice?

I knew it. Sooner or later I would have to describe what happened to a dojo brother of mine (consecutive numbers in the old register, I can't even remember which one of us was 393 and which was 394, I think I remember the numbers corrrectly though) So I sometimes referred to him as my twin. We did n't talk that much but there was enough of a bond for him to confess to me what happened when someone attacked him on the street and I think he wanted to know if he did the right thing.

It seems that someone attacked him and he responded with one of the regular Aikido techniques. I have no doubt it was an effective technique, you know these things if you train with people.
The guy got back up again and attacked again. Then Victor did another technique, it was so long ago I forget which one. The guy was drunk or high on something, Victor told me. So it was four Aikido techniques and the guy kept getting up again. So Victor punched him.

What was I to say? Well, Victor, you did four techniques. It was his turn to throw, so of course you were supposed to hit him.

To answer Jonathan, I guess Victor did his best to not fight, so that is why I gave him that answer. But I was only his dojo twin, didn't even know him socially or have long conversations with him, and I certainly wasn't his senpai or his teacher.
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Old 04-04-2011, 12:53 PM   #42
C. David Henderson
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Re: Need advice?

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Diana Frese wrote: View Post
Well, Victor, you did four techniques. It was his turn to throw, so of course you were supposed to hit him.

David Henderson
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Old 04-05-2011, 01:14 AM   #43
JW
 
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Re: Need advice?

Wow, nice story Diana!
I think in some dojos it is only 2 before you switch off, not 4.. so the guy definitely got more than his share of mercy and the chance to call off the aggression. Plus it was just a punch, not a cut throat or spine.
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Old 06-29-2011, 07:09 PM   #44
robin_jet_alt
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Re: Need advice?

I don't mean to sound like a smart-alec here but to me the concept of 'aikido working in a fight' is a bit of an oxymoron. If your aikido has worked, then there isn't a fight. Conversely, if there is a fight, then your aikido hasn't worked.
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Old 06-30-2011, 07:43 AM   #45
lbb
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Re: Need advice?

Quote:
Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
I don't mean to sound like a smart-alec here but to me the concept of 'aikido working in a fight' is a bit of an oxymoron. If your aikido has worked, then there isn't a fight. Conversely, if there is a fight, then your aikido hasn't worked.
So if someone gets suckered over the head as they're coming out of a bar, their aikido didn't work? What exactly did they do wrong?
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Old 06-30-2011, 10:18 AM   #46
Michael Hackett
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Re: Need advice?

No it didn't work. Aikido wasn't applied as there was no fight in that example. A fight requires two or more active participants. There would have been an attack and a victim with no fight taking place. There is a similarity to the difference between a battle and a massacre.

Michael
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