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Old 04-04-2011, 11:39 AM   #226
graham christian
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
"Tenyu. You need to stop putting your projections on others. I do not advocate dominating and controlling nature. Working with it is from where my I come."
Mary.
I see what you mean now, thank you. I was referring to his use of the word when he seemed to be accusing me of wanting to dominate and control nature.

As I replied that I prefer working with it then at that point I did use it and thus you are quite correct.

Your asking for my definition is interesting so I will attempt to put it into words.

As I see it there are different areas you can apply it to. Let's take life organisms. The world of plants and animals, including our own bodies of course. Life forms. Then the natural laws that apply to all life forms I would call nature.

Now if you take inanimate things then I would say the natural laws that they all follow is also nature.

Apply it to the universe itself and I would say the same.

Apply it to mathematics and I would say the same.

Hope that clears for you what my use of the term means. As I said, in my general communication I don't usually use it.

Regards and appreciation. G.
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Old 04-04-2011, 12:51 PM   #227
Walter Martindale
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
Walter

Mary's not an 8 year old. She's an adult capable of learning on her own. I'm giving her the resources to do so if she wants. I'm very willing ‘to teach' anyone within reason on topics that aren't available elsewhere, but that's not the case here. What I have to share that's unique is my experience with martial arts which I've posted quite a bit of already. If you have questions specific to Aikido or Aikibodo technique then feel free to ask me in another thread.

What does superiority have anything to do with experience or knowledge?
?? superiority? Huh?

The point (as Mary has noted, and she definitely doesn't need me defending her) is not that she's an 8-year-old. Rather if YOU explain YOUR definition/concept of "nature" in such a way that any 'normal' eight-year-old could understand, all of us reading this thread could understand what you are using as your concept of nature. I shouldn't really be taking this much time away from my job to blab on about this, but what time I do have to spend here would be better spent if your definition of "nature" were typed out, so we could read it here instead of in some book to which you refer and which I have neither the time nor the inclination to read in search of a reference.

Whether you share that concept with another author is less relevant than whether you can explain, in plain language (on this forum, English) what you are talking about... What you have been doing with respect to your references and citations is saying "I agree with this guy - go read his book" instead of saying "this is what I understand to be (insert topic here), here's my understanding of it (insert explanation here), and here's where I get my background information (insert any number of citations here, and have a list of references at the end of your article)."

Essentially, if you were defending a thesis in university, you would have to be able to explain and define all of your terms, if asked, in such a way that the examining committee chair's eight year old child could understand the terms, and then you'd have to be able to explain all of the work in those same, clear, precise terms. Citations could be "as shown by so and so" but YOU would still have to be able to explain it on the spot.

I have defended a master's thesis - a long time ago now - and any time I used any 'jargon' that I hadn't already defined, I was asked to define the jargon and explain what it actually meant in plain language. And the people asking me to explain knew very well what I meant - they wanted to know that I knew what I was talking about and not just blabbing words that I'd heard someone else use. Sometimes these are "operational" definitions that only apply to the specific work being discussed, but they need to be defined, nonetheless.

That's all that's being asked.
I must bow out of this conversation - having written all this, I find that I care very little about the outcome.

Walter

Last edited by Walter Martindale : 04-04-2011 at 12:54 PM.
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Old 04-04-2011, 12:57 PM   #228
graham christian
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

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Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
Same forum AOH thread.

Which teacher?
Tenyu.
Thank you, I've now visited that thread.

With regards to the teacher of the staff? I asked if you knew of such a person for I got the impression many folks seemed to think O'Sensei never had a precise way written down.

Maybe I'm wrong there.( excuse the off topic aside)

Regards.G.
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Old 04-04-2011, 06:36 PM   #229
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
?? superiority? Huh?

The point (as Mary has noted, and she definitely doesn't need me defending her) is not that she's an 8-year-old. Rather if YOU explain YOUR definition/concept of "nature" in such a way that any 'normal' eight-year-old could understand, all of us reading this thread could understand what you are using as your concept of nature. I shouldn't really be taking this much time away from my job to blab on about this, but what time I do have to spend here would be better spent if your definition of "nature" were typed out, so we could read it here instead of in some book to which you refer and which I have neither the time nor the inclination to read in search of a reference.

Whether you share that concept with another author is less relevant than whether you can explain, in plain language (on this forum, English) what you are talking about... What you have been doing with respect to your references and citations is saying "I agree with this guy - go read his book" instead of saying "this is what I understand to be (insert topic here), here's my understanding of it (insert explanation here), and here's where I get my background information (insert any number of citations here, and have a list of references at the end of your article)."

Essentially, if you were defending a thesis in university, you would have to be able to explain and define all of your terms, if asked, in such a way that the examining committee chair's eight year old child could understand the terms, and then you'd have to be able to explain all of the work in those same, clear, precise terms. Citations could be "as shown by so and so" but YOU would still have to be able to explain it on the spot.

I have defended a master's thesis - a long time ago now - and any time I used any 'jargon' that I hadn't already defined, I was asked to define the jargon and explain what it actually meant in plain language. And the people asking me to explain knew very well what I meant - they wanted to know that I knew what I was talking about and not just blabbing words that I'd heard someone else use. Sometimes these are "operational" definitions that only apply to the specific work being discussed, but they need to be defined, nonetheless.

That's all that's being asked.
I must bow out of this conversation - having written all this, I find that I care very little about the outcome.

Walter
This is an Aikido forum, not a university class, no one has an obligation to prove anything. If this were a class, and I'm the 'teacher' as you say then it would be the student's responsibility to do the 'required reading' and write the paper anyways. If you read AOH Charles does a very good job explaining why most higher education has little to do with real learning. Graham said he believes we live in a democracy, if he's going to learn history then he has to do so for himself. No one can do the learning for another!

You brought up superiority in your original post.
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Old 04-04-2011, 07:18 PM   #230
graham christian
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Tenyu.
I thought I had explained that point. By democracy I mean a system where the people can share a common view and vote for a local official who will represent that point of view. That's what I mean, that's the context I used it in.

If you still only see what a book tells you about democracy and cannot differenciate it from how I used the word then you are unaware of a truth of communication.

That truth is that it is the communicators responsibility to say in such a way that the person receiving can understand.

Now I believe you do know what I meant when I used the word and you are just trying to be smart. A shame.

Regards.G.
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Old 04-04-2011, 07:19 PM   #231
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
The Meteorological Agency has been calculating its forecasts on the migration once or twice every day since March 11, when the great earthquake hit the Tohoku and Kanto regions.

The agency inputs observation data sent from the IAEA--such as the time when radioactive substances are first released, the duration of the release and how high the substances reach--into the agency's supercomputer, adding the agency's observation data, including wind directions and other data. The supercomputer then calculates the direction in which the radioactive substances will go and how much they will spread.

However, the agency has only been reporting the forecasts to the IAEA and not releasing them to the public at home.

The IAEA analyzes the data from Japan by adding observation data from other countries it similarly asked for cooperation, such as China and Russia, and notifies nuclear authorities of countries, including Japan, of the results.

Whether to announce the IAEA analysis is left to each government's judgment. The Japanese government's Nuclear Emergency Response Headquarters has so far not released the IAEA analysis.
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T110404004911.htm

If the Japanese government wanted to, they could put geiger counters or the appropriate monitoring devices anywhere on top of the reactor buildings to get accurate real time reading of the radioactivity spew before the winds disperse it. Obviously the government isn't interested in obtaining or providing such important data though.
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Old 04-04-2011, 07:22 PM   #232
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Tenyu.
I thought I had explained that point. By democracy I mean a system where the people can share a common view and vote for a local official who will represent that point of view. That's what I mean, that's the context I used it in.

If you still only see what a book tells you about democracy and cannot differenciate it from how I used the word then you are unaware of a truth of communication.

That truth is that it is the communicators responsibility to say in such a way that the person receiving can understand.

Now I believe you do know what I meant when I used the word and you are just trying to be smart. A shame.

Regards.G.
You proposed democratic action to provide proper community-oriented oversight of nuclear plants. Do you really believe that's possible in our political system?
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Old 04-04-2011, 07:44 PM   #233
graham christian
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

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Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
You proposed democratic action to provide proper community-oriented oversight of nuclear plants. Do you really believe that's possible in our political system?
I proposed a sequence of policies.

I gave it as an idea.

One of those policies was that there would be a body made up of over 50% public to police and oversee from a health and safety view.

If I am not mistaken, by watching what has been happening in the arab region of the world, well yes I believe it's possible.

As I explained, if you or anyone come up with a good way foreward which resonates with the majority of folk then you can in this society or any other find a way if you are willing to be responsible enough.

So first you would have to have a way foreward that the majority agreed with. Then you use this marvellous technology. You make a facebook page or group or something similar. You build support.
You grow a wave of positive change. etc.

Just another idea.

If you believe you can't then all you can do is carry on finding fault. A waste of time in my opinion.

Regards.G.
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Old 04-04-2011, 07:51 PM   #234
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

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Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
You proposed democratic action to provide proper community-oriented oversight of nuclear plants. Do you really believe that's possible in our political system?
Not to speak for him, of course, but I think it is. The few have and probably always will have ruled through the consent of the masses, whether the consent is active or passive.
If the community organizes and is big enough, then just about anyone would have to operate with that in mind.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 04-05-2011, 12:30 AM   #235
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I proposed a sequence of policies.

I gave it as an idea.

One of those policies was that there would be a body made up of over 50% public to police and oversee from a health and safety view.

If I am not mistaken, by watching what has been happening in the arab region of the world, well yes I believe it's possible.

As I explained, if you or anyone come up with a good way foreward which resonates with the majority of folk then you can in this society or any other find a way if you are willing to be responsible enough.

So first you would have to have a way foreward that the majority agreed with. Then you use this marvellous technology. You make a facebook page or group or something similar. You build support.
You grow a wave of positive change. etc.

Just another idea.

If you believe you can't then all you can do is carry on finding fault. A waste of time in my opinion.

Regards.G.
My goal isn't to change nuclear policy and I never said it was. I don't blame anyone for the human condition especially the most politically powerful people who have the least free will of all. Really I have just as much compassion for the global oligarchy as I do for anyone else. But using the word democracy, a utopian idea, reinforces the culturally inherited lie we're raised with. That's one of the fundamental problems with our society, it's filled with reality-negating stories and myths. It permeates everything, it has to in order to perpetuate this unconscious path of disconnection and destruction. This multi-millenia Age Of Separation is playing itself out and we're riding its climatic exponential transition. It is up to us how we experience, create, and relate to change. All I'm advocating for is awareness(becoming nage), and that itself is a revolution in a world dominated by uke and the myths of uke.

"Though the problems of the world are increasingly complex, the solutions remain embarrassingly simple."
-Bill Mollison

"We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if mankind is to survive.

A human being is part of the whole, called by us "Universe," a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest - a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."
-Albert Einstein
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Old 04-05-2011, 06:08 AM   #236
graham christian
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

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Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
My goal isn't to change nuclear policy and I never said it was. I don't blame anyone for the human condition especially the most politically powerful people who have the least free will of all. Really I have just as much compassion for the global oligarchy as I do for anyone else. But using the word democracy, a utopian idea, reinforces the culturally inherited lie we're raised with. That's one of the fundamental problems with our society, it's filled with reality-negating stories and myths. It permeates everything, it has to in order to perpetuate this unconscious path of disconnection and destruction. This multi-millenia Age Of Separation is playing itself out and we're riding its climatic exponential transition. It is up to us how we experience, create, and relate to change. All I'm advocating for is awareness(becoming nage), and that itself is a revolution in a world dominated by uke and the myths of uke.

"Though the problems of the world are increasingly complex, the solutions remain embarrassingly simple."
-Bill Mollison

"We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if mankind is to survive.

A human being is part of the whole, called by us "Universe," a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest - a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."
-Albert Einstein
Tenyu.
I thoroughly agree with that quote by Albert Einstein. i'm glad and don't doubt your compassion. However it means we must also be aware of those factors within ourselves which undermine our own compassion.

For instance: Acceptance. If you were to focus on something and see what you can accept about it and then also see what you would rather not accept about it you will see how non-acceptance is also a way we trap ourselves and individuate and thus destroy our own compassion.

My view is that once you can fully accept something and feel good about it only then can you move to find a better way. Therefore it would be quite a skill to be able to point out facts to people in such a way that they gain understanding without encouraging their unacceptance but rather to lead them to a better solution.

Whatever the solution will be it would have to include the public, or may I say a more aware public involvement. The reality is that there would thus be policy change.

The better future if there is to be one therefore would be more to do with less 'separation' and whether you call that a better form of democracy or you come up with a new term for me is merely a matter of semantics.

I also think that compassion itself leads a person to look for a better solution and thus come up with possible goals at least. So for policies to change, even if the policies are that there will be no nuclear plants I suggest are part of a compassionate view. Denying it in yourself is denying your own compassion.

I don't mean that as a put down of you for denial of such in myself or in anyone else is also a denial of part of our own compassion.

Regards.G.
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Old 04-05-2011, 07:27 AM   #237
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Hope that clears for you what my use of the term means. As I said, in my general communication I don't usually use it..
Unfortunately, I think your definition is rather self-referential, using the term to define itself, and it still leaves some important questions unanswered. You can say that it's the nature of rivers to run. It's also the nature of rivers to back up when they are dammed, and when water is released from that dam, it naturally produces energy as it seeks a lower level. So is a dammed river part of "nature" or not? For that matter, nuclear fission also occurs in nature.

My point, if you haven't guessed it, is that "nature" is a friendly-sounding, comforting term...but as we can see with the items on our supermarket shelves, labeling something "natural" doesn't always make it good. Not only can the meaning be distorted, but there are plenty of natural phenomena (syphilis, earthquakes, tsunamis) that do harm.
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Old 04-05-2011, 08:42 AM   #238
graham christian
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Unfortunately, I think your definition is rather self-referential, using the term to define itself, and it still leaves some important questions unanswered. You can say that it's the nature of rivers to run. It's also the nature of rivers to back up when they are dammed, and when water is released from that dam, it naturally produces energy as it seeks a lower level. So is a dammed river part of "nature" or not? For that matter, nuclear fission also occurs in nature.

My point, if you haven't guessed it, is that "nature" is a friendly-sounding, comforting term...but as we can see with the items on our supermarket shelves, labeling something "natural" doesn't always make it good. Not only can the meaning be distorted, but there are plenty of natural phenomena (syphilis, earthquakes, tsunamis) that do harm.
Get where your coming from. Yes it does sound and can be easily taken that way.

I would expand on my definition this way: Instead of natural laws I could say the underlying natural laws. Therefore in your example of rivers following the laws of nature then it would mean they are bound by and follow the laws of physics.

Once I got into a conversation with someone who insisted something was normal. I said it may be normal but is it natural?

In that particular discussion I was looking at what underlying principles or 'unmanmade' laws it fitted with or went against, this thing called normal.

Just interesting mental exercises, I find anyway.

Regards.G.
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Old 04-05-2011, 10:29 AM   #239
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Graham,

There are many converging catastrophes facing the world right now and nuclear is only one issue, a wild card as we're witnessing with both unknown potential and manifest destruction. Lovelock who named the earth as a single organism Gaia has ironically been a supporter of nuclear energy at least pre-Fukushima. For Gaia to have a future with humans, her problems need to be seen from a holistic perspective. Understanding that Gaia is in full blown stage four cancer, survival will include changes that seem impossible today. Whatever improvements social and political movements have made in the past and present, Gaia's overall health has only deteriorated exponentially. The root cause, our consciousness, may be at a low point along with Gaia's health. Collectively, critically, our consciousness will change or we along with most other of Gaia's complex life forms will go extinct and much faster than most know. How will our consciousness transform? I'm not pretending to know. If civilization(unsustainable consumption/destruction) collapses quickly, that will give us the opportunity for that unknown transformation. I don't believe anything less will be sufficient.

Lovelock article.
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Old 04-05-2011, 10:50 AM   #240
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
This is an Aikido forum, not a university class, no one has an obligation to prove anything. If this were a class, and I'm the 'teacher' as you say then it would be the student's responsibility to do the 'required reading' and write the paper anyways.
Well, that's assuming you're the teacher. Which no one here really knows you well enough to assume. In a discussion between peers it's not customary to assign people homework. It either comes off as patronizing and arrogant, or like you don't really know what you think yourself, or it just makes people lose interest. In any case it doesn't make your argument well.
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Old 04-05-2011, 11:11 AM   #241
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

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Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
This is an Aikido forum, not a university class, no one has an obligation to prove anything.
Food for thought.
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Old 04-05-2011, 11:14 AM   #242
graham christian
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
Graham,

There are many converging catastrophes facing the world right now and nuclear is only one issue, a wild card as we're witnessing with both unknown potential and manifest destruction. Lovelock who named the earth as a single organism Gaia has ironically been a supporter of nuclear energy at least pre-Fukushima. For Gaia to have a future with humans, her problems need to be seen from a holistic perspective. Understanding that Gaia is in full blown stage four cancer, survival will include changes that seem impossible today. Whatever improvements social and political movements have made in the past and present, Gaia's overall health has only deteriorated exponentially. The root cause, our consciousness, may be at a low point along with Gaia's health. Collectively, critically, our consciousness will change or we along with most other of Gaia's complex life forms will go extinct and much faster than most know. How will our consciousness transform? I'm not pretending to know. If civilization(unsustainable consumption/destruction) collapses quickly, that will give us the opportunity for that unknown transformation. I don't believe anything less will be sufficient.

Lovelock article.
Tenyu.
Granted. There are indeed many. I understand where you're coming from and that may well be the case. I can at the moment only give my view and share and listen to others views.

Just because I have a bit of a more 'holistic' view doesn't however mean it is the same as anothers 'holistic' view.

Where my view differs from yours I suspect is when you say if civilization collapses quickly that will give us the opportunity for that unknown transformation. I certainly see how that would lead to a sudden awakening, or mortal shock.

Anyway, the state of mind that leads to this view or conclusion is where I differ. I have seen all this before, in the cold war for example and history is full of examples of peoples facing impending doom. By thinking it must happen in order to wake up I find personally is tantamount to helping it happen.

Now I'm sure others may say that means living with rose tinted glasses on. No. For that is not my view either.

I believe if we want to increase our awareness and want others to, indeed to transcend our current state of being then it is more a matter of learning how to enter and face these situations without fear and yet with 'eyes wide open'. Without blame but with enough wisdom to find a solution. Without being against yet able to harmonize with and even replace. Without force but with such an irresistable flow (be it from the people or individually) that a better scene is created.

I believe in the truth of Aikido. (Excuse my passion.)

I too don't know what the best solution is to many of the situations extant but when I see someone with one then I fully back it.

When handling a fight this past chistmas time I did not wait for the disaster to complete nor did I look through rose tinted glasses at it. I entered it without fear and changed the situation. Why? Because I was there and because I trusted my ability.

We need those in the positions of where they can do something to change things that are heading for catastrophe to have that same attitude. That's my view. Call it an attitude of mind if you will. In my Aikido i encourage people that they can rather than agree with their fears and reactions.

Anyway, maybe I've said enough. Thanks for the discussion.

Regards.G.
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Old 04-05-2011, 12:03 PM   #243
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Graham,

Civilization(consumption/destruction) must collapse(‘mitigated') not for our consciousness, although that will be a necessary benefit, but because the scientists are saying Gaia will become uninhabitable if we don't. The only disagreement within climatology is how bad it's going to get, how many degrees of global temperature will rise. So far it's gone up 1 deg faren. I forget the actual percentage but the oceans are the greatest sink for CO2, and there's a time lag before it affects the climate. This means we already have another deg guaranteed. There's a possibility the permafrost in the East Siberian Arctic Shelf is melting and about to release untold amounts of methane.

In the following video, which I posted before, Bill McKibben states the consensus among climatologists - unless we get off fossil fuels with "great speed" the temperatures in this century will go up at least 5 or 6 degrees - TOTAL FUBAR.

Link
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Old 04-05-2011, 12:37 PM   #244
graham christian
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
Graham,

Civilization(consumption/destruction) must collapse(‘mitigated') not for our consciousness, although that will be a necessary benefit, but because the scientists are saying Gaia will become uninhabitable if we don't. The only disagreement within climatology is how bad it's going to get, how many degrees of global temperature will rise. So far it's gone up 1 deg faren. I forget the actual percentage but the oceans are the greatest sink for CO2, and there's a time lag before it affects the climate. This means we already have another deg guaranteed. There's a possibility the permafrost in the East Siberian Arctic Shelf is melting and about to release untold amounts of methane.

In the following video, which I posted before, Bill McKibben states the consensus among climatologists - unless we get off fossil fuels with "great speed" the temperatures in this century will go up at least 5 or 6 degrees - TOTAL FUBAR.

Link
Tenyu.
The global warming issue is yet another debate. I would have to check up many sources on both sides of the argument to even get close to a view on it.

Once again I refuse to be led by the merchants of fear. Just because I'm told it will lead to disaster doesn't mean it will or just because I'm told the cause is 'X' doesn't mean it is. Leading people this way is the oldest trick in the book. It does get you to pay for things though.

Once again I am saying be aware of these things when searching for the truth, don't be led by fear.

Personally, without too much inspection I don't believe global warming is man made. Polititions love it though.

Regards.G.
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Old 04-05-2011, 04:49 PM   #245
Lorien Lowe
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

'The scientists' aren't saying anything about Gaia, because Gaia is a religious concept. Tenyu is accurate, however, in that the vast, vast majority of climate scientists are in a total frothing panic about climate change, and the fact that there's even a semblance of a 'debate' about it is testimony to the power and wealth of the fossil fuel industries. Researchers do not have the personalities to advocate their points of view in the emotional ways that win arguments in our current semblance of a national dialog, and most people cannot see the drama and fear inherent in the conclusions of report after report after report by ecologists, climate scientists, epidemiologists, and others. Sometimes, fear is useful; sometimes, telling oneself that one is imagining things and that everything will be ok just leads to a really, really bad outcome.

I was reluctantly pro-nuclear before the tsunami, and based on what I know about the danger of carbon use I am still reluctantly pro-nuclear (with the caveat that we also invest in real long-term solutions like solar and wind, and regulate the hell out of nuclear). It is a question of which options cause the most total pain and suffering; nuclear seems awful right now because the problems come all at once, but very few people look at the total deaths of coal miners, rig workers, and asthma patients caused annually by fossil fuel energy, much less at the death and suffering that will happen with global climate change and/or the problems that will happen if our civilization collapses due to climate change or lack of energy.

As for what is 'natural,' fission of naturally occurring uranium is no more unnatural the conversion of billions of years of stored carbon into gasses that change the entire global climate.
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Old 04-05-2011, 05:17 PM   #246
mathewjgano
 
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
'The scientists' aren't saying anything about Gaia, because Gaia is a religious concept. Tenyu is accurate, however, in that the vast, vast majority of climate scientists are in a total frothing panic about climate change, and the fact that there's even a semblance of a 'debate' about it is testimony to the power and wealth of the fossil fuel industries. Researchers do not have the personalities to advocate their points of view in the emotional ways that win arguments in our current semblance of a national dialog, and most people cannot see the drama and fear inherent in the conclusions of report after report after report by ecologists, climate scientists, epidemiologists, and others. Sometimes, fear is useful; sometimes, telling oneself that one is imagining things and that everything will be ok just leads to a really, really bad outcome.

I was reluctantly pro-nuclear before the tsunami, and based on what I know about the danger of carbon use I am still reluctantly pro-nuclear (with the caveat that we also invest in real long-term solutions like solar and wind, and regulate the hell out of nuclear). It is a question of which options cause the most total pain and suffering; nuclear seems awful right now because the problems come all at once, but very few people look at the total deaths of coal miners, rig workers, and asthma patients caused annually by fossil fuel energy, much less at the death and suffering that will happen with global climate change and/or the problems that will happen if our civilization collapses due to climate change or lack of energy.

As for what is 'natural,' fission of naturally occurring uranium is no more unnatural the conversion of billions of years of stored carbon into gasses that change the entire global climate.
Nicely put. I think it's easy to make sweeping declarations against things like nuclear power because of how obvious the dangers seem, but when we compare those dangers with other common dangers I think it points more to a need of diligence than for abstinence.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 04-05-2011, 05:43 PM   #247
graham christian
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Never seen so many generalizations in one paragraph on climate change.

G.
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Old 04-05-2011, 09:31 PM   #248
lbb
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Never seen so many generalizations in one paragraph on climate change.
What are you referring to, Graham?
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Old 04-06-2011, 02:04 AM   #249
Tenyu
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
'The scientists' aren't saying anything about Gaia, because Gaia is a religious concept. Tenyu is accurate, however, in that the vast, vast majority of climate scientists are in a total frothing panic about climate change, and the fact that there's even a semblance of a 'debate' about it is testimony to the power and wealth of the fossil fuel industries. Researchers do not have the personalities to advocate their points of view in the emotional ways that win arguments in our current semblance of a national dialog, and most people cannot see the drama and fear inherent in the conclusions of report after report after report by ecologists, climate scientists, epidemiologists, and others. Sometimes, fear is useful; sometimes, telling oneself that one is imagining things and that everything will be ok just leads to a really, really bad outcome.

I was reluctantly pro-nuclear before the tsunami, and based on what I know about the danger of carbon use I am still reluctantly pro-nuclear (with the caveat that we also invest in real long-term solutions like solar and wind, and regulate the hell out of nuclear). It is a question of which options cause the most total pain and suffering; nuclear seems awful right now because the problems come all at once, but very few people look at the total deaths of coal miners, rig workers, and asthma patients caused annually by fossil fuel energy, much less at the death and suffering that will happen with global climate change and/or the problems that will happen if our civilization collapses due to climate change or lack of energy.

As for what is 'natural,' fission of naturally occurring uranium is no more unnatural the conversion of billions of years of stored carbon into gasses that change the entire global climate.
Hi Lorien,

Nice to see you here. Oil is still the overwhelming forefront factor of Liebig's Law. Since there's no replacement for the cheap 3.6 billion gallons of oil required to power civilization every day, if we're lucky collapse will happen before new carbon inputs irrevocably impact the dynamic positive feedback already in play. Oil's the biggest industry in the world but contrary to media-induced public opinion, they also have one of the lowest profit margins of any major industry due to declining finite reserves and non-linearly declining EROEI. The oil production plateau is precariously approaching the cliff or series of cliffs. There's good reason Saudi Arabia's true reserves are classified information. What will happen with the hundreds of thousands of tons of highly radioactive nuclear fuel as collapse progresses? What will happen when rolling or permanent blackouts arrive in areas with nuclear reactors? How many Chernobyls and Fukushimas can the world handle of the 443 reactors currently in use? Even if a Yucca mountain were approved, a significant amount of fuel at every plant is too hot to be transported, they're basically stuck in huge pools for years until they're cool enough to be dry casked. How many decades to decommission? The entire life cycle of nuclear energy isn't accounted for in its government subsidized EROEI and safety considerations, nor do I see these issues being addressed by the nuclear lobby or pro-nuclear people.

The media's doing a good public relations job of obfuscating the health risks of Fukushima. Many comparisons to dental x-rays, but they never state that being a one time radiation exposure of a few milliseconds. The fallout from Fukushima both into the atmosphere and the sea consists of radioactive particles that continually release radiation 24/7 for the duration of their half-lives.
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Old 04-06-2011, 02:18 AM   #250
Tenyu
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Tenyu.
The global warming issue is yet another debate. I would have to check up many sources on both sides of the argument to even get close to a view on it.

Once again I refuse to be led by the merchants of fear. Just because I'm told it will lead to disaster doesn't mean it will or just because I'm told the cause is 'X' doesn't mean it is. Leading people this way is the oldest trick in the book. It does get you to pay for things though.

Once again I am saying be aware of these things when searching for the truth, don't be led by fear.

Personally, without too much inspection I don't believe global warming is man made. Polititions love it though.

Regards.G.
Graham,

How can you believe or not believe in an issue while simultaneously admitting complete ignorance of it? I don't see any politicians addressing AGW. If you had at least read the Lovelock article, you would know Kyoto treaty and carbon offsetting is a business scam. Real mitigation of AGW means the end of business and the global economy as we know it entirely. If you think this is wild you should check out my thread on peak oil in this same forum.
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