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Old 03-21-2011, 02:25 AM   #26
sakumeikan
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

Quote:
Chris Covington wrote: View Post
I think aikido weapons are much better than your backyard samurai sword arts (as seen on youtube). However, I think they lack the depth of classical weapons arts in general. I had a little exposure to aikiken and aikijo but compared to the koryu I've been exposed to they are more shallow. If you can't find good training though take what you can get.

When someone wants mochi they should go to a mochi maker.
Dear Chris,
You indicate you have little exposure to aikiken/aikijo how then can you say they are shallow compared to your own koryu?I do not see how you are able to make this assertion with limited experience .
Cheers, Joe.
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Old 03-21-2011, 09:09 AM   #27
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

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Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Although Iwama style aikido has its flaws, I believe having an Iwama background made it easier for me to understand this connection.
Hi Michael,
As Iwama aikido has nothing to do with formal weapons system, what are your basis for understanding connection aikido with weapons?

Nagababa

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Old 03-21-2011, 11:23 AM   #28
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

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David Valadez wrote: View Post

What I do believe, and what I mean when I say weapon based, or weapon context, is that weapons must be present OR POTENTIALLY PRESENT for the Aikido set-ups to become useful. That weapons must be present (along with multiple attacker situations) OR POTENTIALLY PRESENT in order to use the movement, distance and timing taught by the Aikido syllabus.

Meaning, for example, in the field of law enforcement, wherein everyone, from the gang-banger that's running upon seeing you to drunk granny out taking her evening walk, is assumed to be armed - where there is no tactical difference allotted for whether or not folks are armed. Everyone is treated as they are armed and all tactics follow that suit.

In that setting, the commonly practiced Aikido syllabus transfers more readily to combat than the commonly practiced MMA syllabus. The reason, in my opinion, is that weapons and/or the potential for weapons being present generates a space/time more fertile for Aikido waza to function and remain viable.

d
I think you've hit the nail on the head! The presents or potential presents of weapons changes the way someone will try to deal with you.

Context is king!
The context in which you are fighting makes all the difference. For example, if we look at the typical Aikido rush in and wrist grab attack, v.s. a wrestling double/single leg take down. If your context is unarmed (which is what most people first think of when they think "marital arts") the double/single leg take down seems like the clearly superior technique. Looking to MMA as an example, the double/single leg is a hugely successful technique, used regularly. While the "run in and grab katate" approach has seldom had much effect!

However let's picture a double/single leg done on a man with a holstered pistol. Very likely that the wrestler going for the double/single leg, on a man with a holstered pistol, will end up getting shot. The wrestler will have no control of the weapon hand, as soon as the armed man realized what is happening, he will draw and shoot. Contrast that to the "rush in an grab katate attack". When someone has a weapon, quickly getting control of his weapon hand now suddenly seems like a good idea. Attacking this way may allow us to get to the pistol before it is drawn, saving our life.

Context changes things dramatically, understanding what context our system fits into is of the utmost importance!

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Old 03-21-2011, 08:32 PM   #29
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

Hi Joe,

It is what it is. The amount of focus on swordsmanship between (most) koryu and aikiken is worlds apart. Many koryu spend 100% of their time studying the sword. In aikido at best it represents 1/3rd or less. Most people aren't going to just study aikiken at their dojo, they'd never progress very far in their aikido would they?

My original response by the way was to Chris and Josh's comments about aikido and weapons and Josh's point, "the primary practice of aikido is weaponless, both currently and historically." I think many arts contain certain weapons left over from an old headmaster or something a teacher picks up to add to class. I've known many teachers pick up some kali to help him and his students understand knives and how they work in a fight. It isn't uncommon now for an aikido or karate teacher to add a litle BJJ into class to at least have some idea of the ground game. Heck I've even added a little bojutsu and "sojutsu" into my class to help round out some skills I think are important. But if I were to claim either weapon as a true skill I possessed, that could rival a master in either art, I'd be in a world of hurt. Like I said, "when someone wants mochi they should go to a mochi maker."

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Chris,
You indicate you have little exposure to aikiken/aikijo how then can you say they are shallow compared to your own koryu?I do not see how you are able to make this assertion with limited experience .
Cheers, Joe.
Best regards,

Chris Covington
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Old 03-22-2011, 01:15 AM   #30
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I think you've hit the nail on the head! The presents or potential presents of weapons changes the way someone will try to deal with you.

Context is king!
The context in which you are fighting makes all the difference. For example, if we look at the typical Aikido rush in and wrist grab attack, v.s. a wrestling double/single leg take down. If your context is unarmed (which is what most people first think of when they think "marital arts") the double/single leg take down seems like the clearly superior technique. Looking to MMA as an example, the double/single leg is a hugely successful technique, used regularly. While the "run in and grab katate" approach has seldom had much effect!

However let's picture a double/single leg done on a man with a holstered pistol. Very likely that the wrestler going for the double/single leg, on a man with a holstered pistol, will end up getting shot. The wrestler will have no control of the weapon hand, as soon as the armed man realized what is happening, he will draw and shoot. Contrast that to the "rush in an grab katate attack". When someone has a weapon, quickly getting control of his weapon hand now suddenly seems like a good idea. Attacking this way may allow us to get to the pistol before it is drawn, saving our life.

Context changes things dramatically, understanding what context our system fits into is of the utmost importance!
Couldn't agree more.

For me, it raises the issue of "realistic" in training. Why? Because when folks think of "realism" they as civilians, especially law-abiding civilians, tend to picture the MMA context, for example. However, in my field, nothing, or very little, resembles that context. In my field, the MMA context seems totally unrealistic because it raises its head rarely and only then after someone f-ed up and didn't do a lot of things they should have done.

By extension, folks that picture that MMA context, any/or any of its variants (i.e. absence of weapons, single fronts, single opponents, absence of irreversible consequences, absence of legal ramifications, etc.), also picture folks only attacking in emotionless, sober, measured, and by skilled means. When, in my context of experience, I have never seen anyone commit an act of violence, whether it be minor or major, that was not the opposite of these things. Again, in the MMA context, the measured and skilled "attack" is realistic, but in my context, it is never present.

David M. Valadez
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Old 03-22-2011, 11:04 AM   #31
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

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David Valadez wrote: View Post

By extension, folks that picture that MMA context, any/or any of its variants (i.e. absence of weapons, single fronts, single opponents, absence of irreversible consequences, absence of legal ramifications, etc.), also picture folks only attacking in emotionless, sober, measured, and by skilled means. When, in my context of experience, I have never seen anyone commit an act of violence, whether it be minor or major, that was not the opposite of these things. Again, in the MMA context, the measured and skilled "attack" is realistic, but in my context, it is never present.
This is a good example of what we, as martial arts practitioners tend to often overlook! It's important as martial artists for us to, at the very least, understand that other contexts exist.

Going a step further, we could accept the very real possibility that our system, Aikido, is applicable in a context other than what one might find in an MMA ring. Or in other words, isn't the best means of learning to fight unarmed, however has MUCH to offer martially.

Getting back to Michael's questions:
Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post

What impact does our understanding of the martial context of aikido have on our practices?

If we do not understand the martial context of our art, how can we genuinely develop the specific skills of that art?

If we accept the intimate relationship between aikido and weapons, what are the implications for a modern practitioner? (Think: Will aikido work in the cage?; But I don't carry weapons; I practice aikido to experience harmony of movement; etc.)

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Old 03-22-2011, 08:44 PM   #32
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

It seems that you cannot practice weapons mindfully and get away with being sloppy like you can with basic Aikido techniques. Weapons seem to magnify your bad techniques. Someone could be practicing Aikido quite happily until they pick up a sword and try some cuts. Cutting Kesa-giri it is easy to see your body mistakes, too much shoulder, not turning the arms off at the end of the cut and over rotating, poor posture and too much weight on the front foot. Performing a similar body movement in Aikido, such as Iriminage, it is harder to get the same precision of feedback from your body.

More advanced sword techniques, such as turning to cut an opponent's belly open who is behind you, one learns not to turn the "power" on too soon, that the cut starts from the center, and to really relax the upper body while staying grounded.

Using weapons, one can learn to operate your body more efficiency (strong core, relaxed shoulders) quicker than by just doing Aikido by itself. It can be done, it just takes longer and requires much more self reflection.

If your weapons training consists of banging sticks together like baseball bats, then what I was talking about does not apply.

I learned how to generate power with a weapon first, then found a way to incorporate that body technique into my Aikido. Has anyone else had the same experience? To me that is the real value of weapons training.
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Old 03-23-2011, 01:13 AM   #33
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

There seems to be considerable confusion as to what is being discussed here.

It is not so much that the techniques seen in aikido teach the use of weapons, or that training with weapons enhances your tachi waza merely by revealing proper mechanics.

Rather it is that the techniques support, complement, and/or conform to the use of weapons.

It is that the techniques, tactics, and strategies employed have more of a home in a context which is highly likely to involve weapons (and multiple opponents… but that's for another thread).

And mostly, it is the positive impact on training, i.e., the ability to develop true skills, which comes from recognizing this relationship.

We can either earnestly discuss this or relegate ourselves to attempting to pull off shiho nage from a boxers jab and wondering why it doesn't work out so well, and when that fails resorting to any preposterous notion as to why we train these specific techniques when all we really need is jab, cross, and sprawl.

Sometimes it is easier to see things from the other side of the spectrum. To better understand what is being discussed, imagine how foolish it would be for someone to train in the skills of boxing if they knew they were likely to face an opponent armed with a katana, tanto, and possibly shuriken. Further, imagine how equally foolish it would be for someone to train in the skills of wrestling if they knew they were likely to face three or more opponents.

-Michael
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Old 03-23-2011, 02:41 AM   #34
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
There seems to be considerable confusion as to what is being discussed here.

It is not so much that the techniques seen in aikido teach the use of weapons, or that training with weapons enhances your tachi waza merely by revealing proper mechanics.

Rather it is that the techniques support, complement, and/or conform to the use of weapons.

It is that the techniques, tactics, and strategies employed have more of a home in a context which is highly likely to involve weapons (and multiple opponents… but that's for another thread).

And mostly, it is the positive impact on training, i.e., the ability to develop true skills, which comes from recognizing this relationship.

We can either earnestly discuss this or relegate ourselves to attempting to pull off shiho nage from a boxers jab and wondering why it doesn't work out so well, and when that fails resorting to any preposterous notion as to why we train these specific techniques when all we really need is jab, cross, and sprawl.

Sometimes it is easier to see things from the other side of the spectrum. To better understand what is being discussed, imagine how foolish it would be for someone to train in the skills of boxing if they knew they were likely to face an opponent armed with a katana, tanto, and possibly shuriken. Further, imagine how equally foolish it would be for someone to train in the skills of wrestling if they knew they were likely to face three or more opponents.
Excellent post!

David M. Valadez
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Old 03-23-2011, 10:48 AM   #35
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

If that post doesn't clear up the confusion, I don't know what will. Nice post Michael!

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Old 04-01-2011, 05:32 PM   #36
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

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I believe that the weapons relation to Aikido is much more than metaphor.
Chris. I'm just curious but have you ever been told about riai. I only say this because I have never heard you mention it yet it is precisely to do with your view on Aikido.

Regards.G.
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Old 04-01-2011, 06:09 PM   #37
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Chris. I'm just curious but have you ever been told about riai. I only say this because I have never heard you mention it yet it is precisely to do with your view on Aikido.

Regards.G.
No, I can't say I have. I did a quick search and found the riai aikido association, is that the group you are talking about? They are linked to Hombu Dojo through the CAA. What is the history of this style of Aikiodo?

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Old 04-01-2011, 06:30 PM   #38
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
No, I can't say I have. I did a quick search and found the riai aikido association, is that the group you are talking about? They are linked to Hombu Dojo through the CAA. What is the history of this style of Aikiodo?
Hi Chris. No that's not what I meant. I would assume they named their Aikido after the concept of riai.

If you look up a youtube video called 'Weapons as meditation' by ginny breeland she explains a bit about it at the end of the vid.

It is a term used by O'sensei, think you'll like it.

Regards.G.
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Old 04-01-2011, 06:57 PM   #39
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

Chris. As an add on the view of riai I was taught and teach is actually not much different than that of Saito Sensei. (I'm sure you can find RIAI SAITO SENSEI on the web)

It is once again a word made from ri and ai.

The concept is of the bringing together of principles and in the case of Aikido, as Saito Sensei pointed out it is the bringing together of the universal principles of open hand and those of weapons (the sword and the jo principly) to form the correct motions and attitude of Aikido.

Others I hasten to add may have put a different understanding to this concept but as I said I feel this one, as given by Saito Sensei fits your view.

Regards.G.
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Old 04-01-2011, 11:47 PM   #40
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

Hmm, I never remember it being called "riai" maybe my teacher just didn't choose to use those words. I have an Iwama background, the concept of weapons and taijutsu being the same thing is something I've heard from day one.

When I'm talking about weapons and Aikido I'm coming from a similar, but different angle. The weapon is the reason to grab a wrist. The weapon is the reason that we don't see double legs, or boxing technique in Aikido. The weapon is uke's motivation. Nage's motivation comes from multiple attackers, not the weapon; but that is material for a different thread.

Saito Sensei often explains the weapon from the vantage point of Nage. I believe however, that the weapon has more to do with why uke is doing what he is doing.

Similar but different.

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Old 04-04-2011, 12:31 PM   #41
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

From a Chiba Sensei interview:

"There’s a story about Tohei Sensei. Sometime around 1960 a pair of wrestlers from Argentina visited the dojo. They were part of a group that was traveling around making a documentary film about the “most dangerous things in the world”. They were both huge men. O-Sensei usually would not allow us to indulge in contests, but on that occasion he gave the go-ahead and told Tohei to have a go, although to this day I still don’t know why. All the students lined up on the mat and O-Sensei sat at the head of the line of instructors. He said, “Tohei, up!” Since he was representing the whole dojo, Tohei Sensei took it very seriously.

I had been the one to greet the wrestlers when they arrived. They were so big that their heads came up past the lintel of the entranceway door. I thought, “Oh no… if we lose we’re going to be so ashamed,” so I discussed it with the other uchideshi and we decided to conceal some wooden swords that we could use those to deal with the wrestlers in the event that Tohei Sensei was defeated [laughter].

The match began. Tohei Sensei immediately moved towards his opponent, who immediately moved back. Ten minutes passed as they circled each other around and around the dojo. Neither of them did anything. Finally, Tohei Sensei chased the wrestler into a corner and leapt toward him. He was so small compared to his opponent, but he ended up heaving him backwards with a judo-like sotogake maneuver, and then pinning him with his tegatana. The wrestler should have been strong in ground techniques, but he couldn’t get up. He tried various ways to escape, but Tohei had him firmly pinned.

I was surprised at the strength of Tohei Sensei’s kokyu power. It’s quite difficult to throw an opponent who’s not coming after you, you know. That’s why Tohei forced him into a corner. I was impressed. O-Sensei didn’t say anything at the time, but afterwards he was angry and said, “There’s no need to throw someone who isn’t attacking you!” It’s true that this wasn’t a very good way of winning in the bujutsu sense. An opponent with a knife could easily run you through if you tried that, so it wasn’t actually very convincing as self-defense. But in that kind of dojo setting I think there probably wasn’t much else he could’ve done."

David M. Valadez
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Old 04-04-2011, 05:07 PM   #42
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

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David Valadez wrote: View Post
I thought, "Oh no… if we lose we're going to be so ashamed," so I discussed it with the other uchideshi and we decided to conceal some wooden swords that we could use those to deal with the wrestlers in the event that Tohei Sensei was defeated [laughter].
And

Quote:
O-Sensei didn't say anything at the time, but afterwards he was angry and said, "There's no need to throw someone who isn't attacking you!" It's true that this wasn't a very good way of winning in the bujutsu sense. An opponent with a knife could easily run you through if you tried that, so it wasn't actually very convincing as self-defense. But in that kind of dojo setting I think there probably wasn't much else he could've done."
Both interesting.

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Old 04-04-2011, 05:37 PM   #43
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

Yes, these were exactly the points I had zeroed in on.

David M. Valadez
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Old 04-05-2011, 04:49 AM   #44
Michael Varin
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

Quote:
He was so small compared to his opponent, but he ended up heaving him backwards with a judo-like sotogake maneuver, and then pinning him with his tegatana. The wrestler should have been strong in ground techniques, but he couldn't get up. He tried various ways to escape, but Tohei had him firmly pinned.
It's a topic for a different thread, but I guess Tohei had been practicing a lot since his run in with Herman two years earlier.

Back squarely on topic, and equally interesting to the points that Chris and David highlighted:

Why did Tohei resort to a "judo-like" leg sweep in this encounter?

Nothing against leg sweeps, but why did Tohei not use one of the recognizable techniques of aikido, that I assume he learned from Morihei Ueshiba and had diligently trained in for around 20 years?

-Michael
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Old 04-05-2011, 05:39 AM   #45
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

Well,

Chiba Sensei himself recalls using typical Judo, instead of Aikido ones, when going for real in self defense.

Quote:
On another occasion I was in Paris with Noro Sensei, and we visited a night club together. I was having a drink in one room and Noro Sensei was sitting in another room playing cards, or something. Suddenly there was a terrible commotion from where Noro was, so I went in to see what was happening. It was a fight. An old gentleman was Iying on the floor and a young man was kicking him. It was terrible - there was a lot of blood on the floor. I think he would have killed him, so Noro Sensei said to me "Chiba, sort that out." He did not want to get involved.
(Laughter).
I took hold of this man, and stopping his attack, I asked him what he thought he was doing. He spoke to me in French, so neither of us understood and so I pulled him outside...then something happened. My body reacted and I threw him down with O Soto Gari (major outer reaping throw) the judo technique. He hit the ground very hard and I heard a clatter of metal. It was then I realized that he had pulled a knife. My awareness had been such that I reacted to the situation from my subconscious. This guy was a gangster from the Pigalle, and that was why no one stopped him. He was well known apparently...but not to me! It made no difference who he was.
Source: http://omlc.ogi.edu/aikido/talk/othe...ther than your

While, on the other hand, typical aikido techniques failed to him:

Quote:
Well, we faced each other, and Master Wang made something like Sumo posture with his hands outstretched. I stood and waited for an opening. This went on for some minutes until he moved forward to push me. So I met him, made Tai Sabaki (body evasion) and took his wrist with Kote Gaeshi, (wrist crush/reversal)...his wrist made a loud snapping noise as I applied it. Even though I applied Kote Gaeshi strongly and injured him, he did not go down. Master Wang snatched his wrist from me, and challenged me immediately. So this time he pushed me with both hands in the belly, and threw me quite a distance across the room. I landed, but I also did not go down. It was an amazing throw. My students then came between us, and that was that.
http://omlc.ogi.edu/aikido/talk/othe...h friends like

Or serious striking was needed to soften the challenger prior to pulling aikido technique:

Quote:
Nobody knew what he did. As I said he was persistent, and every few weeks he would return to challenge us. Each time I had to explain that we could not accept. I think that the man was not quite "right" in the head. Anyway, eventually I personally had enough of him and accepted his challenge. We arranged to meet and sort it out. I insisted that we agree not to press charges in the event of serious injury and we exchanged letters to that effect. I told him as a martial arts teacher I was prepared to die if need be. Well, we met and I initiated with offence, moving directly to him and I struck him first. This threw him back against the wall and as I came towards him he jumped on me: he was like a tiger. I then finished him with Nikyo (the second immobilization). He had had enough by then. There was much blood and he was on the floor screaming. That was the last challenge he offered us - it seems that he did not expect an Aikidoist to initiate an attack.
http://omlc.ogi.edu/aikido/talk/othe...g else Sensei?

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 04-05-2011 at 05:47 AM.
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Old 04-05-2011, 06:21 AM   #46
Nicholas Eschenbruch
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

Well, then again, the Master Wang story has been put into a very different context by some other famous storytellers, so at the end of the day, what do we know....

Quote:
Terry stated to me, (I'm quoting as best as I can remember) "the uchi-deshi at honbu, particularly Chiba, started giving me a raft of shit that I was being disloyal to O-sensei by studying with Wang, and I asked O-sensei, and he said, 'sure, do what you want' but they wouldn't let up so I said, "why
don't you come and check him out for yourself." So Draeger and me took Chiba, Saotome and Tamura. Well, we walked in, and Wang scopes out Chiba right away, like he knows who has the attitude here, takes one look, and says, 'come here boy.' Seriously, Wang's over sixty, paid lots of dues, is a religious leader and all, and here comes these punks, as far as he's
concerned, in their twenties, copping an attitude. So Wang lets Chiba punch him in the stomach. Nothing. Chiba tries again. Nothing. Well, now Chiba loses his temper, half turns away, and then tries to sucker punch him, thinking it's timing. This time Wang sucks the fist into his belly and then drops, he gives it back, Chiba's arm goes shooting back behind his ear, and he's shaking his wrist in pain. Wang then let Chiba kick him in the groin. Nothing. So Chiba loses it, grabs Wang's wrist and puts a
nikkyo or kote-gaeshi on it, some wrist lock. I don't know what Wang did, it was too fast, but Chiba slams on the floor and Wang's doing something to him with one hand and he's screaming in pain. Finally Wang lets him up and
says, "You've got a little chi, why don't you come back when you acquire more?" Then he turns to Tamura and Saotome, who were standing there with their backs against the wall, and says, "you want to try." They both shake their heads and we all went home. They never gave me shit about Wang again. . . . Far as I'm concerned, Chiba lost his chance at salvation right there. He should have quit everything and sat at Wang's feet."
Ellis Amdur put it somewhere out there, I am too lazy to google right now...
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Old 04-05-2011, 06:40 AM   #47
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

Quote:
Nicholas Eschenbruch wrote: View Post
Ellis Amdur put it somewhere out there, I am too lazy to google right now...
Here:
http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=3730
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Old 04-05-2011, 10:25 AM   #48
senshincenter
 
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
It's a topic for a different thread, but I guess Tohei had been practicing a lot since his run in with Herman two years earlier.

Back squarely on topic, and equally interesting to the points that Chris and David highlighted:

Why did Tohei resort to a "judo-like" leg sweep in this encounter?

Nothing against leg sweeps, but why did Tohei not use one of the recognizable techniques of aikido, that I assume he learned from Morihei Ueshiba and had diligently trained in for around 20 years?
I would propose that the answer is in Osensei's complaint - "There's no need to throw someone who isn't attacking you!"

In other words, and this is how I am understanding this thread, Aikido strategy and tactics are not directly relatable to these kind of match-like/stand-offs often seen in "dojo" settings and that is widely through the commerce of martial arts becoming widely accepted as "real," but is rather more directly applicable to moments of actual human-vs-human violence - the kind were life and not trophies and titles are on the line, the kind where someone is looking at jail time, the kind where multiple lives (including the lives of folks not even present) are ruined.

d

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 04-05-2011, 10:35 AM   #49
sorokod
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

Quote:
I would propose that the answer is in Osensei's complaint - "There's no need to throw someone who isn't attacking you!"
Presumably it's atemi all the way when "someone is attacking someone else".

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Old 04-05-2011, 11:33 AM   #50
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
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England
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Re: Aikido and Weapons: The Connection

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post
I would propose that the answer is in Osensei's complaint - "There's no need to throw someone who isn't attacking you!"

In other words, and this is how I am understanding this thread, Aikido strategy and tactics are not directly relatable to these kind of match-like/stand-offs often seen in "dojo" settings and that is widely through the commerce of martial arts becoming widely accepted as "real," but is rather more directly applicable to moments of actual human-vs-human violence - the kind were life and not trophies and titles are on the line, the kind where someone is looking at jail time, the kind where multiple lives (including the lives of folks not even present) are ruined.

d
David. I couldn't help adding a view here as I found the story fascinating and understood it from a different viewpoint, be it right or wrong.

It reminds me of a scene where two samurai are facing each other with complete zanshin. This is why there is no immediate action.

In this state both parties know that he who attacks has lost.

While the equilibrium is kept they can only move in a circle really. As the description said the sumo was backed into a corner then he knew and Tohei knew he had already lost. Thus Tohei should have bowed out at that point and the sumo should have accepted defeat.

The choice Tohei had was to otherwise stay there with zanshin where the sumo had to give in or attack.

I believe he was scolded for not doing this for those reasons. Basically for showing off.

Of course I may be wrong but that's my take. Not that dissimilar to yours really.

Regards.G.
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