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Old 03-25-2011, 11:53 AM   #351
Hellis
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
When he was young:
Clip
When he was old and still amazing to watch everytime I see these old gems. appreciated.

Henry Ellis
Kenshiro Abbe
http://kenshiroabbe.blogspot.com/
 
Old 03-25-2011, 12:03 PM   #352
markyboy64
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
It's not balance. Kokyu and push tests won't help you ride a bike. You won't get the ghost feeling from good balance; that's something that has to be worked on and it's mostly to do with the elbow as far as I can see. Don't ask me to explain it; I don't fully understand it myself.
Alex, without balance you have nothing at all!

As they say "you cannot fire a cannon from a canoe" as well as from terra firma!
 
Old 03-25-2011, 12:44 PM   #353
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
It's not balance. Kokyu and push tests won't help you ride a bike. You won't get the ghost feeling from good balance; that's something that has to be worked on and it's mostly to do with the elbow as far as I can see. Don't ask me to explain it; I don't fully understand it myself.
After watching the clip guys,I rest my winning case,superior BALANCE,Body unity and gravity,is what you have witnessed!

All human movement,techniques or methods,all come from simple single leg drills,and never once did he stay still(always keep moving) and never was he double weighted!!

This skill is not unique to martial arts,sports too!!

More food for thought!
 
Old 03-25-2011, 12:49 PM   #354
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

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Mark Ackrill wrote: View Post
Alex, without balance you have nothing at all!

As they say "you cannot fire a cannon from a canoe" as well as from terra firma!
Yes but that doesn't make what we're talking about balance.
 
Old 03-25-2011, 01:20 PM   #355
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Yes but that doesn't make what we're talking about balance.
If you practice single leg drills,your power will skyrocket.
You will have balance where others don't.

You will gain naturally bagua's natural supreme footwork,and strike with a lot of power.

Techniques will become secondry,because your subconsious brain will do the thinking for you,you learn much ,much faster,because your teaching "yourself" natural body skills and movements,not rote mechanical movements like a alot of broke back mountain karate man dancing,but very powerful skills.
 
Old 03-25-2011, 01:27 PM   #356
Ketsan
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Mark Ackrill wrote: View Post
After watching the clip guys,I rest my winning case,superior BALANCE,Body unity and gravity,is what you have witnessed!

All human movement,techniques or methods,all come from simple single leg drills,and never once did he stay still(always keep moving) and never was he double weighted!!

This skill is not unique to martial arts,sports too!!

More food for thought!
Actually the fact that he's moving about so much...........that's the opposite of what I'm talking about. If you've got "body unity" you don't need to move all that much, you use your body rather than movement. Everything can be done in two or three square metres bearing in mind that uke and tori probably take up much of that space.
 
Old 03-25-2011, 01:38 PM   #357
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Mark Ackrill wrote: View Post
Alex,you have hit upon something very true!!

Not just Aikido,but Taiji,bagua,Eckey Thump,all taught(mostly)back to front.

The reason why judoka's have excelled at Aikido,better than Aikidokas themselves,is down to mainly one thing!!!

BALANCE!

If you train for a high degree of dynamic balance,you can learn very quickly any technique(natural movement) from any art,and mix them up so they become no technique!
that's is what internal arts are...your own!!!

This twenty year technique idea is pure bollocks.
How many olympic swimmers,gymnasts,took that long to become good!

From a baby onwards we naturally learn through natural trial and error.Think riding bikes,climbing trees ect.

People can teach you techniques till the cows come home,but they can't teach you physical balance(purely internal).

Techniques are at best 1% of your art! 80% is balance,body unity follows along with proprioception,and working with gravity is what give you power.then it becomes very sophisticated and can always be improved along your life long martial journey!

Obviously you become more balanced practicing techniques.
But that is the backward slooooow way!! Plus you're thinking!making learning even slooooweeeer!

This why many masters,remain the master,instead of the pupil becoming the master,which can be done in months NOT years!

Food for thought maybe!!
Actually in Aikido balance is taught alot ,if you take alot of ukemi.

dps
 
Old 03-25-2011, 01:44 PM   #358
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

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Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Actually the fact that he's moving about so much...........that's the opposite of what I'm talking about. If you've got "body unity" you don't need to move all that much, you use your body rather than movement. Everything can be done in two or three square metres bearing in mind that uke and tori probably take up much of that space.
Yes I know what you're saying! but his bodyweight is constantly in flux,great for fighting!

having watch it,that little guy could do it in a telephone box,perfect bagua footwork,which is the same as Aikido's,but rarely trained exclusively.That I know of!
 
Old 03-25-2011, 01:56 PM   #359
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

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Mark Ackrill wrote: View Post
Yes I know what you're saying! but his bodyweight is constantly in flux,great for fighting!

having watch it,that little guy could do it in a telephone box,perfect bagua footwork,which is the same as Aikido's,but rarely trained exclusively.That I know of!
Body weight constantly in flux? How so?
 
Old 03-25-2011, 01:57 PM   #360
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Actually in Aikido balance is taught alot ,if you take alot of ukemi.

dps
You are not taught balance David,only" you" can teach it to yourself.

Proprioception comes to mind!

The ground fighting in the internal arts is the same as stand up fighting,no grappling,just much more dangerous," serious injuries",just different balance points.Nasty! fighting
 
Old 03-25-2011, 03:46 PM   #361
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

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Interesting hypothesis! Of course I believe it to be nonsense. Kindly show me ANY Judoka who have become like Mfume Sensei in a couple of months........ Okay, for that matter, show me ANY modern day Judoka who moves like he did.

Marc Abrams
Dear Marc.
The statement above about anyone moving like Mifune Sensei in modern day judo i[quote] to be frank is nonsense. Mifune Sensei is/was unique inasmuch he is Mifune.No one else in the universe can be /or will be like Mifune Sensei physically , mentally , in any way.
Are you seriously saying that Anton Geesink, Toshiro Daigo\ Neil Addams/Yamashita are not up to Mifune Sensei standards?How do you rate Kenshiro Abbe Sensei, do you think he was good /bad at Judo?How can you compare a rose to a buttercup ?They are both beautiful and complete in their own right.Suffice to say that Mifune Sensei was a great judoka as are the other men mentioned herein.
You are like so many others being judgemental.Was Frank Sinatra a better singer than Elvis? Can you not just accept the fact that both these men were unique in their own right?The same applies to Mifune Sensei and the others.
Cheers, Joe.
 
Old 03-25-2011, 04:29 PM   #362
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Mark Ackrill wrote: View Post
Koiche tohe struggled with a cameraman untrained in any art,because the cameraman didn't know he was not supposed to resist.In other words he didn't make a good uke.
That's not accurate at all. Tohei had strict limitations put upon him by Ueshiba...
 
Old 03-25-2011, 05:01 PM   #363
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
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That's not accurate at all. Tohei had strict limitations put upon him by Ueshiba...
Beat me to it.

Jeez, this discussion was settled back in the 90's. Internet, round and round.

 
Old 03-25-2011, 05:05 PM   #364
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
I'd dispute that. Aikido is stupid simple what's highly complex is the way the simplicity is taught. There's a lot of beating around the bush in the way Aikido is taught but when you get down to the nuts and bolts of what is actually taught it's rather unsophisticated.
It is very true. It is simple. You have actually 6 techniques, all the rest is transition.

Let me explain better this point, then.
A few decades ago when I started my boxing training, it all seemed rather simple. It is an impression still today you can have seeing dilettantis on the ring. You see them fighting and you think: well, that's not difficult.

Then, after a few weeks the first time I had to face an oppone nt on the ring came - That was not yet an official match.

I could not hit him.
And he was no champion, only a guy who had 20 official matches on his shoulders.

I took a lot of blows for 2 rounds, without being able to hit him even _once_. It was a very humiliating and sobering experience for me: I understood that experience makes the whole difference and that those simple things that you see (can you envision something simpler than thoriwng a jab?) were not simple in the least.

Months later I was able to hit him. Why? Because I knew what would come next. I could take the blows, I was no longer startled. I knew that if he is throwing hooks I have an instant where, while lowering to dodge, I can raise and throw jab and right.
This simple thing, finding the right instant to get in his guard - it is not something that you can explain: you just know that you have an instant and space for that, you know that your punches can be fast and straight (you will be surprised to see how many beginners throw slanted direct blows that are utterli uneffective because they are scared).
You know that he can step back, you know that you can jump forward and that while you do he can throw his direct blows so you are ready to dodge your head slightly to make his incoming blows slide on your cheek and cross them with yours.

This simple thing - this incredibly simple thing, is incredibly difficult to make when facing an experienced opponent. And of couse any Martial approach that is not geared towards facing a fight-savvy opponent is not really Martial.

So yes, aikido is incredibly simple. Also boxing is, even more.

But when you are under the thunderstorm, nothing is simple anymore.
If then you want to place a nikkyo on a charging bull showering you with a tempest of direct blows, you need to be a God at it.

That is my point.
To answer Attilio, defending yourself with Aikido is an insane idea. The only reason one pursues it is that s/he has the ambition of trying to do it the difficult way.
And it's a very difficult one.

Human beings may like a challenge. :-)
 
Old 03-25-2011, 10:04 PM   #365
Ketsan
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
It is very true. It is simple. You have actually 6 techniques, all the rest is transition.
Try zero. There are no techniques in Aikido. Aikido is the technique.

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
So yes, aikido is incredibly simple. Also boxing is, even more.

But when you are under the thunderstorm, nothing is simple anymore.
If then you want to place a nikkyo on a charging bull showering you with a tempest of direct blows, you need to be a God at it.
Yes you would need to be a God at it. You would also be willingly choosing a nigh impossible solution over an extreamly simple one. You would in fact be trying to show boat.
Personally I pick strikers up and dump them. You can duck under hooks so can Aikidoka. Aikidoka can clinch too and we've got nice powerful hips so with a single snap the boxer is on the floor.
Why would anyone try to put nikkyo on a boxing punch?

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post

That is my point.
To answer Attilio, defending yourself with Aikido is an insane idea. The only reason one pursues it is that s/he has the ambition of trying to do it the difficult way.
And it's a very difficult one.

Human beings may like a challenge. :-)
It's more like people have no clue about Aikido and so they assume that an Aikidoka would do something insane like try to counter a jab with nikkyo because they don't know enough about Aikido realise the possibilites of Aikido.
 
Old 03-26-2011, 02:20 PM   #366
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

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That's not accurate at all. Tohei had strict limitations put upon him by Ueshiba...
I am sorry,but Tohei struggled!!!! Maybe his Ki was low that day!

Patterned training leads to failure!

And besides it was an impromptu act!!
 
Old 03-26-2011, 05:24 PM   #367
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

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Mark Ackrill wrote: View Post
I am sorry,but Tohei struggled!!!! Maybe his Ki was low that day!

Patterned training leads to failure!

And besides it was an impromptu act!!
You have no clue what you are talking about.
<sigh>

 
Old 03-26-2011, 06:35 PM   #368
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Mark Ackrill wrote: View Post
I am sorry,but Tohei struggled!!!! Maybe his Ki was low that day!

Patterned training leads to failure!

And besides it was an impromptu act!!
I am with Craig's on this, you have no clue!

Tohie was outweighed probably by double - he was not put down, but the other guy was on a couple of occasions. To me, that is what true Aikido would look like in a true combative encounter - it is not about the picture perfect form of a technique, it is about the application of principles and concepts - to me, Tohei appeared to be playing with this guy - for those that do impromptu randori in your training, this is exactly what it looks like, not pretty, but effective if done right.

Greg
 
Old 03-27-2011, 12:59 PM   #369
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

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Craig Hocker wrote: View Post
You have no clue what you are talking about.
<sigh>
Don't judge me! by your own shoddy standards!!
 
Old 03-27-2011, 01:09 PM   #370
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
I am with Craig's on this, you have no clue!

Tohie was outweighed probably by double - he was not put down, but the other guy was on a couple of occasions. To me, that is what true Aikido would look like in a true combative encounter - it is not about the picture perfect form of a technique, it is about the application of principles and concepts - to me, Tohei appeared to be playing with this guy - for those that do impromptu randori in your training, this is exactly what it looks like, not pretty, but effective if done right.

Greg
With respect I think your knowledge of the internal art can be written on the back of a postage stamp!
 
Old 03-27-2011, 02:28 PM   #371
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

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Mark Ackrill wrote: View Post
With respect I think your knowledge of the internal art can be written on the back of a postage stamp!
Well that was certainly a mature and professional response - thanks for sharing...

Last edited by gregstec : 03-27-2011 at 02:37 PM.
 
Old 03-27-2011, 02:31 PM   #372
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

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Mark Ackrill wrote: View Post
With respect I think your knowledge of the internal art can be written on the back of a postage stamp!
Putting a smilie on it doesn't make it a joke. Can we please avoid ad hominen attacks between people who clearly haven't touched each other on the mat much less had an actual in-depth conversation about their training?

Janet Rosen
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Old 03-27-2011, 04:29 PM   #373
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
I am with Craig's on this, you have no clue!

Tohie was outweighed probably by double - he was not put down, but the other guy was on a couple of occasions. To me, that is what true Aikido would look like in a true combative encounter - it is not about the picture perfect form of a technique, it is about the application of principles and concepts - to me, Tohei appeared to be playing with this guy - for those that do impromptu randori in your training, this is exactly what it looks like, not pretty, but effective if done right.

Greg
Let me add some clarification to this post. First, it was not my intention to insult Mr. Ackrill with the comment: " he has no clue" If he took offense, I apologize. I was simply endorsing Craig's comment in the context of what Mr. Ackrill posted specific to the Tohie/cameraman clip and not what he has previously written elsewhere in this thread - actually, I concur about the importance of balance, but that really is just one part of the total equation.

As mentioned, my focus was his comments on just the clip and I still stand behind my comments in the above post about what was going on between Tohei and the camera guy.

Greg
 
Old 03-27-2011, 05:13 PM   #374
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Smile Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

My first post here.
I've been a cop for about 15 years, trainined Aikido for about the same, have a Nidan in a Hard Karate Style - anyway.
I've been in so many scraps/fights I've lost count, none I start, but all I have to finish due to my line of work. Probably 3 of these have made me fear serious injury. I'm pleased I know that I can hold my own, it takes away some of that sefl doubt. I was always say to staff "you're going to get into scraps, we all do, there is nothing wrong with that, but there is everything wrong with losing." Harsh but true - it is to advise people not to pussy foot around, as it is a sure way to get hit.

I've seen that clip of Tohei and all it shows is a man (Tohei) with superior balance pushing a realtively clumsy person away (I think he was an ex-wrestler - but obviously out of shape etc). Don't take anything from this - I'm sure he didn't.

The interesting thing for me is how long this post is, and how many people comment on it. Likewise Youtube, God help the person that doesn't disable comments when posting an Aikido clip, or else in no time most posts develop into a long winded argument. Why?

Despite what they say, a number of Aikido practicioners feel somewhat insecure, and have to defend what they do. I've also done BJJ for the last 7 - 8 years, it also faces criticism for being "ground based" - but most BJJ practioners just inwardly laugh at such ignorance, and always say "if you think what we do is crap - come to our mat and back your words up!"

What a shocking attitude!!!!!! My Aikido is very soft, and non combatitive. Aikido is what Aikido is.
 
Old 03-27-2011, 06:31 PM   #375
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

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Matt Morris wrote: View Post
Aikido is what Aikido is.
Welcome to aikiweb, Matt. Sounds like you have a good, reality-based grounding to make more contributions here.

Janet Rosen
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