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Old 03-25-2011, 10:40 AM   #76
Hellis
Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:
Ashley Carter wrote: View Post
Wow Alejandro, you are on a roll in both threads in this section. I'm afraid you might be rolling downhill though...... might want to stop yourself while you still can.

I'm all for you stating your opinion, ......
Everyone seems to value free speech, until you try it.

Alejandro appears very capable of taking care of himself.

Henry Ellis
http://henryellis-aikido.blogspot.com/
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Old 03-25-2011, 10:42 AM   #77
Flintstone
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Wow, Ashley. What are those swipes you're talking about? Or are you taking it personal because you think... different.

If Jun wants to ban me, that's his choice to do so. Am I looking forward it? No. Will I get a ban? Most probably. I think different.
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Old 03-25-2011, 10:51 AM   #78
akiy
 
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

OK, folks -- watch your tone, please.

-- Jun

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Old 03-25-2011, 11:58 AM   #79
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Demetrio:

Finding some sensible guidelines for people to follow is more than reasonable. Within budo we call that "Reigi." When a poster is being intentionally disrespectful and insulting, the results of responding in kind results in a warning from Jun (I know, I have collected them from time to time). This tends to then result in a plethora of passive-aggressive comments that destroy the threads from the focus on the topic.

I agree with your basic premise of "fight back," which is why I have privately and publicly asked Jun to provide some direct feedback, guidelines, etc. so that the responder to the insults and disrespectful comments is not punished as if it was an equal treatment. I do not believe that a person responding to an attack should be equally punished for striking back. I do believe in the concept of justifiable force in responding to attacks.
Hi Marc,

I don't think responding in kind (as insulting back) is the best method for giving a troll a good and deserved e-asskickin'. If Jun approves said e-asskicking or not is his prerrogative. If the result is being banned, well, deal with it.

What I dislike is people prone to "Oh noes, you are offending me!!!", whining, going passive-aggresive (but polite) and asking Jun to deal with the offender.

Quote:
This is Jun's territory in which he can do as he pleases.
Of course.

Quote:
I frankly like a spirited debate on all matters as long as it is done within the bounds of appropriate conduct. This is hard to define and hard to stay within for certain people. That is unfortunate.
Agree, but this how people are.

Quote:
Overall, I have privately and publicly commended Jun on doing a very good job in balancing this task.
Considering how weird akidoka are, he's doing a good job. However, IMO, I think he accepts a lot of sillyness as long is written in a politre manner

@Mary
Quote:
...and the whole forum degerates into a slagfest. Is it so hard to understand why this is not desirable?
It depends on the posters. If they love the place, they will take care of it.

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 03-25-2011 at 12:00 PM.
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Old 03-25-2011, 12:13 PM   #80
Hellis
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
What I dislike is people prone to "Oh noes, you are offending me!!!", whining, going passive-aggresive (but polite) and asking Jun to deal with the offender.
.
I agree !!
It is hard for me to understand that an adult would approach the site moderator about another poster, maybe I am just too old fashioned.
I don't feel the need to read or even post on every thread..It is so easy to ignore or just move on....Read the newly added article on teaching blind and disabled people, you may just feel less hard done by.

Henry Ellis
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Old 03-25-2011, 12:22 PM   #81
ninjaqutie
 
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Alejandro appears very capable of taking care of himself.
I agree with you there. I do not get the impression that he is the type to go crying in the corner because someone called him a name on the playground.

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Wow, Ashley. What are those swipes you're talking about? Or are you taking it personal because you think... different.
My opinion on the matter isn't what I posted about. In fact, I hardly participated in the thread that got Tony banned. Hence I posted earlier about my confusion involving the bunny photo…..

Since I didn’t really read that thread in its entirety, I cannot even begin to formulate an opinion on whether he was rightfully banned or not. I’m not going to jump on the bandwagon that said he deserves it and I’m not going to jump on the train of those riding off into the sunset who say he was banned unnecessarily either.

I am a true believer that everyone should have a right to say what they think (whether it differs from my own or others opinions), provided they are civil about it. For the most part, you have been civil and I personally don’t have issue with you. Comments such as "I bet that if you really knew where the smart money was, you would be rich and retired by now." aren’t really appropriate in my book though. I guess it depends on how you read the sentence and infer your context, which is difficult to do online. Perhaps I read it more harshly then you intended.

Maybe it is wrong of me to point you out, as others have been childish too (perhaps even myself at times), but for some reason, some of the things you said (as previously mentioned) or about Jun bugged me today. Maybe I am just overly sensitive today and if that is the case…. poopoo on me.

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
If Jun wants to ban me, that's his choice to do so. Am I looking forward it? No. Will I get a ban? Most probably. I think different.
I actually hope you do NOT get banned. I find it quite dull with people around that always have the same points of view. I actually like having friendly debates and learning about other people’s perspectives. I often find that even though opinions can be 100% different, often enough, there is something there that is actually a valid point.

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
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Old 03-25-2011, 01:15 PM   #82
dps
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

This is an interesting thread.

Someone posts a thank you to Tony because of advice Tony gives him and the thread degenerates into bickering, fighting and name calling and Jun has to caution people.

Odds are that this thread will get closed by Jun.

Tony did not start the thread, has no posts in the thread.

Maybe Tony is not the problem after all.

dps
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Old 03-25-2011, 01:56 PM   #83
mathewjgano
 
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Self-reflection

"It's easier to put out the fire in your neighbor's house than to put out the fire in your own."

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Maybe Tony is not the problem after all.

dps
I don't think it's a matter of "the" problem. "A" maybe. I believe "the" problem is that people like to get sand caught in their proverbials and that the language centers in our brains are too developed. We also tend to forget our own use of hyperbole and confuse fact and opinion except when it comes to retorting to the "other side's" use of the very same rhetoric.

So here's my thought, before I'm done here (I can't think of anything further to say other than to try and nit-pick what others have said...which I recognize I may be a little too quick to do):
I don't know if it's appropriate or not, but I would love to hear people's opinions about my contributions here. Please don't reply here but send PM; I would genuinely appreciate it.
I think if there's a problem with how conversations go on this forum it has far less to do with site moderation than personal moderation. With that in mind, please folks, help me catch a clue about how I'm contributing here.
...I'd hate to be part of the ego-stroking establishment. The Pac NW Anarchistic police would come tip over my starbucks if they knew I joined an establishment!

Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 03-25-2011, 03:03 PM   #84
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Self-reflection

Just to be clear, sentence 3 was meant to be ironically put, which was why I followed with the remark about hyperbole. I hope it wasn't too unseemly.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 03-25-2011 at 03:09 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 03-25-2011, 06:26 PM   #85
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Henry,

It's not too hard understand that a thread with that sort of title is going to get a lot of views. That is pretty much a perennial question in the martial arts. "Is Your X up to Reality?" is guaranteed to get a look. I should be one of those offended by what he writes I guess, though after reading what he wrote and then by the powers of youtube getting to watch him do aikido I pretty much lost interest. I'm open to criticism from some one doing something interesting / different / unexpected but the reality of what he does, pretty standard aikido practice, and that contrasted with what he posts doesn't leave much of interest. So I don't find him objectionable, I find it more "meh", nothing new here. Heard it all on aikido-L and more in the 90's.

It's nice he prompted Daniel to expand his horizons, so kudos to him for that. What Jun does with his FREE forum giving all the work put into it is fine by me. I am on professional forums that when you get banned, you get banned permanently. There is no time-out, there is just gone. I think Jun's touch is pretty light compared to the e-budo forums.

As for unmoderated martial arts forums. Am I the only that remembers the old usenet forums ? 15-20 years ago that was a pretty common place to have challenges and call outs on a pretty regular basis, and there were cases of people showing up in other peoples doorways

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
George

What I don't understand is if Tony Wagstaffe is so objectionable to so many people, why do they flock to his threads ? ..If I was offended, I would as I have already said " Ignore Tony and his threads " ...The thread " Is Your Aikido up to Reality ? " which has in the region of 14,000 impressions and 344 messages, so when I see Tony referred to as a troll, forgive the wry smile.

Daniel Loydd a ``newbie `` leaves a message of thanks to Tony, people have also flocked to this also with 2000 impressions in a few days...Not to add thanks to Tony, but to take the opportunity to have another dig at a man who is not here to defend himself....

Henry Ellis
Aikido Controversy
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Old 03-25-2011, 07:27 PM   #86
Hellis
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote: View Post
Henry,

It's not too hard understand that a thread with that sort of title is going to get a lot of views. That is pretty much a perennial question in the martial arts. "Is Your X up to Reality?" is guaranteed to get a look. I should be one of those offended by what he writes I guess, though after reading what he wrote and then by the powers of youtube getting to watch him do aikido I pretty much lost interest. I'm open to criticism from some one doing something interesting / different / unexpected but the reality of what he does, pretty standard aikido practice, and that contrasted with what he posts doesn't leave much of interest. So I don't find him objectionable, I find it more "meh", nothing new here. Heard it all on aikido-L and more in the 90's.

It's nice he prompted Daniel to expand his horizons, so kudos to him for that. What Jun does with his FREE forum giving all the work put into it is fine by me. I am on professional forums that when you get banned, you get banned permanently. There is no time-out, there is just gone. I think Jun's touch is pretty light compared to the e-budo forums.

As for unmoderated martial arts forums. Am I the only that remembers the old usenet forums ? 15-20 years ago that was a pretty common place to have challenges and call outs on a pretty regular basis, and there were cases of people showing up in other peoples doorways
Craig

I certainly would not like this forum to be unmoderated..I have seen what happens when a moderator allows too much freedom.

Henry Ellis
http://henryellis-aikido.blogspot.com/
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Old 03-25-2011, 10:35 PM   #87
ninjaqutie
 
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

On a completely different note Sir Ellis your signature just reminded me to thank you for the links to blogs on blogspot you gave me a while ago. I thoroughly enjoyed them.

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
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Old 03-26-2011, 09:22 AM   #88
KaliGman
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Perhaps a much better idea would be for `you` to give this advice to Tony personally, I am sure that he would really appreciate that.

Henry Ellis
British Aikido History
www.british-aikido.com
Maybe I am getting the wrong impression from Sensei Ellis' post, but to me it was one of the most useful in this thread. Personally, I feel that a lot of the snide comments, backbiting, vitriol and other issues here could be solved if people would take a hard look at themselves and really, honestly answer the question "Would I say what I am about to post here if I was standing on a mat and face-to-face with the person I am posting about (or posting in response to)?" There are a lot of Keyboard Kommandos who would never dream of telling someone in person what they freely spew on the Internet. I may be wrong, but from my interactions with Tony, I believe that he would say the same thing to my face that he would say on the 'Net and that he would be more than willing to step on a mat and train with me, instruct me on his viewpoint, or spar should I wish. That is one of the reasons that I find his input here valuable. I am not talking about grudge matches, dojo storming, or some of the more ridiculous challenges I have seen issued (one I recall with fondness was an invitation to fly to SouthEast Asia to a remote location controlled by students and friends of the instructor who issued the challenge to engage in a full-contact stick and blade match--an old fashioned death match actually ). I am just talking about being willing to back up your opinion with skill and the ability to demonstrate your point on a resisting opponent. This can often be a learning experience. Quite often, many learn that they cannot do what they think they can, and it is always better to learn this in a safe training environment rather than when someone is actually trying to hurt you.

My philosophy is not quite so clear cut as "put up or shut up" but that does come close to my viewpoint . I will say that I actually go beyond the advice listed above. I am much more restrained and "nicer" on the 'Net than I am in person. What you put out on the Internet can be retrieved by others years later and may make you look like a pompous ass. I am quite good enough at looking like an ass (just ask my wife if you don't believe me) and I do not need to confirm my asshood in glorious print for the world to see. Also, I realized long ago that many who post in regards to self-defense and martial arts have cherished opinions which are not based in reality and that they are never going to move from those opinions based on discussions on the 'Net. In person, I just say "Show me," and we work a little. A lot of ideas and cherished opinions have been discarded then, and a few people have actually thanked me for the experience. I know that I sure thanked the little Filipino guy who kicked my butt when I tried a few things in person--I even learned a few things over the next several years training with him.

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote: View Post

...I should be one of those offended by what he writes I guess, though after reading what he wrote and then by the powers of youtube getting to watch him do aikido I pretty much lost interest. I'm open to criticism from some one doing something interesting / different / unexpected but the reality of what he does, pretty standard aikido practice, and that contrasted with what he posts doesn't leave much of interest. So I don't find him objectionable, I find it more "meh", nothing new here. Heard it all on aikido-L and more in the 90's.
When I look at the videos that Tony has posted, I don't see anything extraordinary either. However, my take on the matter is, based on my limited interactions with Tony, I would bet he can perform at near the same level shown on his video while actually engaged in a real fight. In other words, he has real world experience and is unlikely to freeze as many do in real altercations, is unlikely to experience the same level of loss of fine motor skills and the like that plague some who engage in real fighting, is likely to remain calm in the face of situations involving violence, and has had the opportunity to learn what works outside of the dojo and what is merely fluff and pretension. Tony's stuff may not be pretty or anything other than plain vanilla, but I would bet on it working in many real world situations, and I would also feel pretty safe in betting that the majority of people who post on this board would get their butt handed to them in a real altercation against even a semi-competent street thug. The skills that I have and the way I move is not extraordinary to those with high levels of training. However, what I do has been sufficient to see me through 18 years of law enforcement, several SWAT operations, and a few deadly force encounters, while I have seen some "extraordinary," "pretty," and "flashy" people bleeding in the gutter.

Just some thoughts--your mileage may vary.
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Old 03-26-2011, 09:44 AM   #89
Hellis
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:
Jon Holloway wrote: View Post
Maybe I am getting the wrong impression from Sensei Ellis' post, but to me it was one of the most useful in this thread. Personally, I feel that a lot of the snide comments, backbiting, vitriol and other issues here could be solved if people would take a hard look at themselves and really, honestly answer the question "Would I say what I am about to post here if I was standing on a mat and face-to-face with the person I am posting about (or posting in response to)?" There are a lot of Keyboard Kommandos who would never dream of telling someone in person what they freely spew on the Internet. .
Jon

Your impression is spot on..The wider and higher the new computer screens, the braver the Plastic Samurai become.
On my sons website he has a message for his visitors, " Don't say anything here that you would not say to my face " ...
The only substitute for reality, is pain.............

Henry Ellis
http://henryellis-aikido.blogspot.com/
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Old 03-26-2011, 10:33 AM   #90
Diana Frese
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

I still read around in controversial threads, but since I have already told some stories of my training background and some dojo I have trained in and visited, I post a bit less these days.

But I have to let you in on what some of you might not know. While not exactly a newbie to Aikido, I've decided to train again and that is a big step. Married to someone who has practiced Aikido in the past but came from Karate (Shotokan, Tsutomu Ohshima's lineage from Gichin Funakoshi) and still practices from time to time, it was discussing Tony's training suggestions that got Chuck and me to decide to train together this spring. As for judo, I took three women's judo courses at Cornell as an undergraduate there, and so it was interesting when Chuck became fascinated with judo for the past two years. So I credit Tony with giving us the encouragement to get back in training and for sending the video and the historical information on Tomiki Aikido. And from that, we began to learn something about the history of British Aikido from other posters as well.

My own training has been, as Francis calls it, eclectic. Would you believe one of my favorite teachers at Hombu, where I studied for a year and a half, was Watanabe Sensei about whose no-touch throws there has been such discussion from the anti-bunny faction.

I haven't been to Japan in over three decades and only asked him a couple of questions when I was there, and so I don't know for sure why he did those in the All Japan demos, but my guess is that he wanted to show there is that possibility in Aikido. My husband's late brother, with whom my husband trained a lot, was a natural in martial arts, starting with high school wrestling. They sparred a lot and my husband says that in certain timing, when the attacker is committed to the attack, the forces are such that one falls without actually being touched. That's the best I can explain it, anyone who wants a better explanation, I'll relay it when he gets back from work.

I hope I haven't reignited a controversy, but there have been a lot of lineage threads, and I felt I should mention my own background.
I've learned a lot from the diversity on Aiki Web and am grateful to all of you. I'm constantly asking my husband, due to my diverse background, if he felt my classes had enough "martial" in them, whether I taught enough basics, whether they were "solid" etc. My descriptions aren't all that great, but I think you all will get the point of my asking for feedback almost thirty years later on what my own classes were like. And now, here's to future training!
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Old 03-26-2011, 11:01 AM   #91
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Thanks, Diana. You consistantly remind me that sharing about my experiences is better for me than sharing my opinion. It is a powerful way to practice Aikiweb aikido.
Mary
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Old 03-26-2011, 11:07 AM   #92
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

My impression of a lot of the recent discussions here on Aikiweb is that they really remind me of the aikido-l mail list about ten-eleven years ago (or maybe a bit more?) before the aikido-l seminars.

What happened was that people on aikido-l organised a few get togethers around the US and even a couple in Europe. And after people got together the tone of the discussions really changed.

One, some people who really disagreed online found out that what they did IRL wasn't actually that different, they just wrote about it differently.

Two, people who's aikido really turned out to be miles away from each other met and found out that inspite of that, the other person actually was quite a nice person, and so they started using a different tone in their online disagreements.

Personally BTDT and so I don't feel like taking part in any of that again so much. Apart from this post that is.

kvaak (for old times' sake...)
Pauliina
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Old 03-26-2011, 11:29 AM   #93
Gorgeous George
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Whether or not somebody will say something in person has absolutely no bearing on whether or not it is true.
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Old 03-26-2011, 11:51 AM   #94
Marc Abrams
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Funny thing is that I invited Tony to the Ushiro Sensei seminar in France (which was postponed due to events in Japan) so that we could meet, train together and wash down the day later with some liquid muscle relaxants. It was Tony who did not want to go. I invited Tony to meet Dan Harden and it was Tony who did not want to go.....

Most people do get along just fine when they finally meet face-to-face. The kind of up close, civility that should exist then, should exist on the web as well. I have no problem saying what I say on the web as in-person. This is just a reflection of how I was raised.

Once again, the issue here has less to do with Tony, but how people choose to conduct themselves on these forums. If a moderator tells you to tone it down and act more respectfully in your posts and you do not, what do you really expect will happen? What does that say about your basic level of respect to the moderator. What does it say about your ability to "play well" with others? If two people know each other and have fun being sarcastic, obnoxious, etc. to each other, then it is understood within the context of the relationship. The forums do not necessarily create the same type of relationships so that what people write can be taken in a variety of ways. That is why we should be careful about how we word things on the internet. I certainly do not believe in being "politically correct," but a degree of initial respect and civility should not be asking too much.

Marc Abrams
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Old 03-26-2011, 12:12 PM   #95
Flintstone
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

The problem comes when you are allowed to be passive-aggressive as long as you don't tone up your wording. You can go all out offending people, but, if you use the right beautiful words then it ain't no problem. You raise your tome a bit without being insulting and, zas, you're out.

That. Is. The. Problem.
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Old 03-26-2011, 04:37 PM   #96
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
The problem comes when you are allowed to be passive-aggressive as long as you don't tone up your wording. You can go all out offending people, but, if you use the right beautiful words then it ain't no problem. You raise your tome a bit without being insulting and, zas, you're out.

That. Is. The. Problem.
Passive-aggressive behavior doesn't usually bother me so much. It's not very useful for conversation, but aggressive behavior bothers me more so. I might be missing part of what passive-aggressive behavior actually is, but it's never seemed like an issue for me...I might just be oblivious.
I still think "the" problem is more complex than some group of passive-aggressives.
p.s. I'm still hoping for direct feedback on how I carry myself here.
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 03-26-2011, 05:10 PM   #97
kironin
 
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Beyond the fact there is really no way you could know that to be true till the sh#t hit the fan, what really matters to me is less what I would do but what my students have done whose day job is in law enforcement and the appreciation they have communicated back to me for what they learned in the dojo. I've learned from their creativity.

ymmv of course.

Quote:
Jon Holloway wrote: View Post
When I look at the videos that Tony has posted, I don't see anything extraordinary either. However, my take on the matter is, based on my limited interactions with Tony, I would bet he can perform at near the same level shown on his video while actually engaged in a real fight. In other words, he has real world experience and is unlikely to freeze as many do in real altercations, is unlikely to experience the same level of loss of fine motor skills and the like that plague some who engage in real fighting, is likely to remain calm in the face of situations involving violence, and has had the opportunity to learn what works outside of the dojo and what is merely fluff and pretension. Tony's stuff may not be pretty or anything other than plain vanilla, but I would bet on it working in many real world situations, and I would also feel pretty safe in betting that the majority of people who post on this board would get their butt handed to them in a real altercation against even a semi-competent street thug. The skills that I have and the way I move is not extraordinary to those with high levels of training. However, what I do has been sufficient to see me through 18 years of law enforcement, several SWAT operations, and a few deadly force encounters, while I have seen some "extraordinary," "pretty," and "flashy" people bleeding in the gutter.

Just some thoughts--your mileage may vary.

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Old 03-26-2011, 05:17 PM   #98
kironin
 
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

It's still amusing to think that people actually thought I and one of the more prankster types on aikido-L were actually going to come to blows in San Antonio in '98 when we met. That was a fun weekend other than the unfortunate accident of one participant.

Quote:
Pauliina Lievonen wrote: View Post
My impression of a lot of the recent discussions here on Aikiweb is that they really remind me of the aikido-l mail list about ten-eleven years ago (or maybe a bit more?) before the aikido-l seminars.

What happened was that people on aikido-l organised a few get togethers around the US and even a couple in Europe. And after people got together the tone of the discussions really changed.

One, some people who really disagreed online found out that what they did IRL wasn't actually that different, they just wrote about it differently.

Two, people who's aikido really turned out to be miles away from each other met and found out that inspite of that, the other person actually was quite a nice person, and so they started using a different tone in their online disagreements.

Personally BTDT and so I don't feel like taking part in any of that again so much. Apart from this post that is.

kvaak (for old times' sake...)
Pauliina

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Old 03-27-2011, 04:49 PM   #99
gregstec
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Since everyone else is waxing philosophically here, I will take my shot at it as well.

"Thank you Tony Wagstaffe" for sacrificing yourself to banishment so the rest of us could exercise the typical human behavior of talking behind one's back just so we can bolster our own egos and ignore our own shortcomings - you are truly a martyr

Greg
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Old 03-27-2011, 05:17 PM   #100
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
Since everyone else is waxing philosophically here, I will take my shot at it as well.

"Thank you Tony Wagstaffe" for sacrificing yourself to banishment so the rest of us could exercise the typical human behavior of talking behind one's back just so we can bolster our own egos and ignore our own shortcomings - you are truly a martyr

Greg
For the record I've been assuming he's reading these threads...so I assume I'm talking in front of his back...er...something like that.

Gambarimashyo!
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