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Old 03-24-2011, 07:56 AM   #51
Flintstone
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Alejandro, just to be forthcoming with you, your post is a pretty good example of taking an off-handed swipe. At Jun in particular. I've had the honor (and fantastic frustration) of having moderated a martial arts board for a number of years (which I do no longer). It is generally a "no-win" situation for the admin. If you have issues I would suggest addressing that openly and publicly. Or else let it go.
Been there, done that. No results.
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Old 03-24-2011, 08:02 AM   #52
Flintstone
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:
John Burn wrote: View Post
The guy is nothing but a troll, sadly I took the bait.
Well, I do find this post objectionable and defamatory. But again I'm not the moderator here. For the records, I also moderated a forum some time ago, I know the business.
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Old 03-24-2011, 09:56 AM   #53
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

To Henry... I certainly wouldn't want to give the impression of "piling on" Tony when he isn't here to participate. I was actually disappointed I couldn't get his reaction to the bunny picture...

But the "wolf pack" mentality shouldn't be a surprise. Tony managed to offend a lot of people. That's why he's banned... again. The fact that many folks here did not get offended by his method of discourse doesn't negate the fact that many were. I think there's a not so subtle inference in many of the pro-Tony supporting posts that the folks who were offended were somehow unreasonable in being so.

People get to have their own reactions. I don't think that, in general, it's reasonable to tell folks they shouldn't respond to something a certain way just because one doesn't have that same reaction oneself.

The lack of civility in contemporary culture has been oft commented on. Folks from a younger generation than mine have coined a term, "keeping it real". My own observation is that more times than not when someone says, "I was just keeping it real" they were simply being rude. In a culture in which lack of civility or rudeness is something of the norm, it isn't surprising that many folks have simply gotten used to it. The fact that some folks have become less sensitive to these things doesn't mean it's not still rude.

In a world of political correctness, it is often refreshing to hear someone just say what they think. I don't have a problem with that as long as they stay with those opinions without personalizing them. It's one thing to say that one believes that a technique won't work or that a method of training isn't good martial arts. That's an opinion and can be argued out. It's another when one starts inferring or even outright stating that someone is somehow less as a person because of his or her way of training or method of doing technique.

There are people on this forum who represent the entire range of opinion as to what Aikido is and why we do it. I am the first one to argue out what I think about that. I'll say when something appears to me to be bad budo, I'll state when someone's take on the art seems less thoughtful than what I think it could be. But the discussion should be about the Aikido. And the discussion should be done in the spirit that, once I have had my say, other folks still get to have very different opinions about the subject. Once I have had my say in a discussion, I usually just stand back... the folks who were persuaded have been so, and the folks who weren't won't be by my hammering them and demeaning them.

As folks have already stated, the vest majority of people manage to post on the forums without getting banned. It is a rarity that this happens. I know for a fact, because so many have told me, that far more people leave the forums and do not participate at all because of the tone these discussions often take. So I would say that, if anything Jun is rather tolerant. He allows quite a range of discussion, even argument, before he steps in.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
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Old 03-24-2011, 10:28 AM   #54
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
On the subject of refreshing candor:
Adults must do better.
Mary,
One of my favorite points about my least favorite things is the way I see my betters react to them. You have a gift, and the best I can say it is in your ability and will to "say a word fitly spoken".
Cheers,
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Old 03-24-2011, 11:44 AM   #55
Hellis
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

George

What I don't understand is if Tony Wagstaffe is so objectionable to so many people, why do they flock to his threads ? ..If I was offended, I would as I have already said " Ignore Tony and his threads " ...The thread " Is Your Aikido up to Reality ? " which has in the region of 14,000 impressions and 344 messages, so when I see Tony referred to as a troll, forgive the wry smile.

Daniel Loydd a ``newbie `` leaves a message of thanks to Tony, people have also flocked to this also with 2000 impressions in a few days...Not to add thanks to Tony, but to take the opportunity to have another dig at a man who is not here to defend himself....

Henry Ellis
Aikido Controversy
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/
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Old 03-24-2011, 11:52 AM   #56
Gorgeous George
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
If I don't approve of a thread or its poster, I simply ignore them both.
I certainly would not slag someone when they are down.
Perhaps you should give this advice to Tony?
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Old 03-24-2011, 11:54 AM   #57
Gorgeous George
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
On the subject of refreshing candor:

Once upon a time there was a man named John S. During his tenure as president of a large university, he accomplished many goals, bringing his university into greater prominence and helping to secure its financial future. He also displayed a marked tendency towards high-handed, autocratic behavior, even on trivial matters on which a few material concessions would have done him no harm, let alone a concession towards civility.

After some years in this position, he decided to run for governor of his state. He had no prior experience in politics, which is considered no great barrier these days as long as you have enough money, but in those days it was considered de rigeur to pay at least a few token dues before aspiring to high office...so, eyebrows were raised. They were further raised as the general public got a real taste of what Mr. S. had been dishing out to members of the university community for some years. He had a tendency to let fly with whatever he felt like saying, and many people's reaction was to say, "This guy is a total jackass."

Then came the apologists -- the "refreshing candor" enthusiasts. I like the guy, they said. He speaks his mind. He speaks the truth as he says it, unpadded and unvarnished. And that's a good thing! This guy is honest, and I like that! Yay honesty!

At the point where it seemed like the refreshing candor crowd might prevail, a newspaper columnist pointed out the obvious. Sure, he's honest, she said. So is my four-year-old. Just like Mr. S., my four-year-old is apt to let fly with whatever she's thinking. It's unpadded and unvarnished, and it's also unconsidered. It's not thought out. And, because she's a four-year-old, I know it for what it is. When my four-year-old screeches out her opinion of my parenting style, I don't beam and say, "Oh, that's just great! What refreshing candor!" Instead, I buckle down and work to teach this child some tact.

Candor and sincerity lose their virtue when they're used as a bludgeon in the service of incivility. Four-year-olds are expected to be lacking in self-restraint. Adults must do better.
This is a great summation of the issue with the man.
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Old 03-24-2011, 12:05 PM   #58
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
To Henry... I certainly wouldn't want to give the impression of "piling on" Tony when he isn't here to participate. I was actually disappointed I couldn't get his reaction to the bunny picture...

But the "wolf pack" mentality shouldn't be a surprise. Tony managed to offend a lot of people.
People (or at least budo people) should have a thicker skin and the ability to not be easily offended, IMO.
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Old 03-24-2011, 12:21 PM   #59
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Unmoderated internet forums tend to become unreadable very quickly. Please name another social environment in which you can say anything you like, in whatever manner you like, without fear of social repercussions.
I know about two forums with low moderation: BS and Aikiforum (this one in Spanish), and IMO, they are working fine. The spanish one never worked better since the mods left.
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Old 03-24-2011, 12:23 PM   #60
Gorgeous George
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

...but then, it's not like what he said was insightful, well-thought out, and pertinent: he mostly posted one-line insults...or multiple-line insults.

So it's not a matter of appreciating a different point of view - it's about not having to put up with pointless abuse.
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Old 03-24-2011, 12:41 PM   #61
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
...but then, it's not like what he said was insightful, well-thought out, and pertinent: he mostly posted one-line insults...or multiple-line insults.

So it's not a matter of appreciating a different point of view - it's about not having to put up with pointless abuse.
If being insightful and pertinent were a requirement for posting, there will be about three aikiweb members allowed to post.

And about insults... you know the saying: sticks and stones. OTOH, if you feel e-abused or e-bullied fight back.

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 03-24-2011 at 12:44 PM.
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Old 03-24-2011, 12:47 PM   #62
Hellis
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
Perhaps you should give this advice to Tony?
Perhaps a much better idea would be for `you` to give this advice to Tony personally, I am sure that he would really appreciate that.

Henry Ellis
British Aikido History
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Old 03-24-2011, 12:53 PM   #63
Janet Rosen
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
...but then, it's not like what he said was insightful, well-thought out, and pertinent: he mostly posted one-line insults...or multiple-line insults..
This to me is taking to a personal level I feel is wrong, whether he is here or not.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 03-24-2011, 01:21 PM   #64
Gorgeous George
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Perhaps a much better idea would be for `you` to give this advice to Tony personally, I am sure that he would really appreciate that.

Henry Ellis
British Aikido History
www.british-aikido.com
Haha.
I doubt that: i've attempted to.speak sensibly with him numerous times, to no avail; he adores you, Mr Ellis - i'm sure if anyone can reason with him, it's you.
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Old 03-24-2011, 01:27 PM   #65
Gorgeous George
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
This to me is taking to a personal level I feel is wrong, whether he is here or not.
Really? I was speaking analytically and impersonally; whatever crudeness, disrespect, and tactlessness the man displays here, I never take it personally: I just find it stupid and boring, really - nothing to get upset about.
I pity the man, if anything.
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Old 03-24-2011, 01:29 PM   #66
Gorgeous George
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Plus: he'd be proud of me for 'speaking my mind' - and being just like him!
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Old 03-24-2011, 02:01 PM   #67
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
Haha.
I doubt that: i've attempted to.speak sensibly with him numerous times, to no avail; he adores you, Mr Ellis - i'm sure if anyone can reason with him, it's you.
Graham,
A bit of passing the parcel /buck on this Mr Ellis's earlier suggestion, eh Graham?
Cheers, Joe.
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Old 03-24-2011, 02:11 PM   #68
sakumeikan
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Dear All.
Having spent some time reading all the views of ouir dear readers the conclusion I come to is this. You either think Tony is Ok [despite his rhetoric ] or you dont. Maybe we should call this discussion quits and get back to hopefully discussing more meaningful items related to Aikido? We could certainly do with some intelligent items to be discussed for a change. Are my expectations to high??Cheers, Joe
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Old 03-24-2011, 02:12 PM   #69
Marc Abrams
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
If being insightful and pertinent were a requirement for posting, there will be about three aikiweb members allowed to post.

And about insults... you know the saying: sticks and stones. OTOH, if you feel e-abused or e-bullied fight back.
Demetrio:

Finding some sensible guidelines for people to follow is more than reasonable. Within budo we call that "Reigi." When a poster is being intentionally disrespectful and insulting, the results of responding in kind results in a warning from Jun (I know, I have collected them from time to time). This tends to then result in a plethora of passive-aggressive comments that destroy the threads from the focus on the topic.

I agree with your basic premise of "fight back," which is why I have privately and publicly asked Jun to provide some direct feedback, guidelines, etc. so that the responder to the insults and disrespectful comments is not punished as if it was an equal treatment. I do not believe that a person responding to an attack should be equally punished for striking back. I do believe in the concept of justifiable force in responding to attacks.

This is Jun's territory in which he can do as he pleases. He has chosen to suspend posters when they cross lines, AFTER they have been privately warned by him. Unfortunately, the "games" begin as soon as a person starts on the path by being intentionally disrespectful and insulting. There are no easy or simple answers for how to address this problem. This problem currently has Tony as the poster child. He is simply an example of a larger problem that I am trying to get people to focus in on (as opposed to focusing on Tony, who cannot respond at the present time).

I frankly like a spirited debate on all matters as long as it is done within the bounds of appropriate conduct. This is hard to define and hard to stay within for certain people. That is unfortunate. Overall, I have privately and publicly commended Jun on doing a very good job in balancing this task. I still do want some more input from Jun on this area because of the direction that certain topics seem to too often head toward.

Marc Abrams

Last edited by Marc Abrams : 03-24-2011 at 02:13 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 03-24-2011, 02:55 PM   #70
mathewjgano
 
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guidelines

Marc,
What would you suggest as better guidelines? I don't see how they can get much better than they already are. I don't think this is a case of someone needing clearer guidelines. If Jun contacts people privately asking them to stop some given behavior and they don't, that seems a pretty conscious choice.
Take care,
Matt

Last edited by mathewjgano : 03-24-2011 at 02:57 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 03-24-2011, 08:03 PM   #71
lbb
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
And about insults... you know the saying: sticks and stones. OTOH, if you feel e-abused or e-bullied fight back.
...and the whole forum degerates into a slagfest. Is it so hard to understand why this is not desirable?
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Old 03-24-2011, 10:06 PM   #72
Flintstone
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
...and the whole forum degerates into a slagfest. Is it so hard to understand why this is not desirable?
No. What seems hard to understand is that other forums worked far better when moderators left. But, alas, that's fact.
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Old 03-25-2011, 07:47 AM   #73
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
No. What seems hard to understand is that other forums worked far better when moderators left. But, alas, that's fact.
My neighbor had a meteor of solid platinum land in his front lawn, and it's really hard for me to understand why that didn't happen to me, and I just can't get past that fact.

For every forum on the internet that you can name that "worked far better when moderators left", I'm sure we can find hundreds that went the other way. Expecting otherwise is just like waiting for that meteor of solid platinum to land in on your lawn: it could happen, but the smart money bets the other way.
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Old 03-25-2011, 07:55 AM   #74
Flintstone
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
it could happen, but the smart money bets the other way.
I bet that if you really knew where the smart money was you would be rich and retired by now. But hey, maybe you are. I mean... that's your opinion, not a fact.
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Old 03-25-2011, 11:29 AM   #75
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Re: Thank you Tony Wagstaffe

Wow Alejandro, you are on a roll in both threads in this section. I'm afraid you might be rolling downhill though...... might want to stop yourself while you still can.

I'm all for you stating your opinion, which can agree or differ from mine or others, but you need not make swipes at people like you are. Or are you hoping to get banned just to make a point? I'm sure Jun could accomodate you if you ask nicely......

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
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