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Old 03-16-2011, 08:06 PM   #51
Tenyu
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Mark,
Physics etc was never my strong point but geometry states that 360degrees is a circle? Where does Tenyu get his 630 degrees from unless of course he does more than one [ in Aikido terms ] rotational movement?Having said that why would anyone want to rotate more than 360 degrees anyway?Ice skaters may do multiple rotational movements but these are just 360 degrees multiplied by the number of rotations they do.I have yet to see a compass/protractor that can draw /measure 630 degrees. Cheers, Joe.
Joe,

Here's animation that shows:

http://www.rkm.com.au/ANIMATIONS/ani...sine-wave.html

In the nage/uke graph, cosine and sine display the passage of time, it has nothing to do with the physical rotations of nage or uke.
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Old 03-17-2011, 01:38 AM   #52
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Mark,
Physics etc was never my strong point but geometry states that 360degrees is a circle? Where does Tenyu get his 630 degrees from unless of course he does more than one [ in Aikido terms ] rotational movement?Having said that why would anyone want to rotate more than 360 degrees anyway?Ice skaters may do multiple rotational movements but these are just 360 degrees multiplied by the number of rotations they do.I have yet to see a compass/protractor that can draw /measure 630 degrees. Cheers, Joe.
Tenyu appears to be mapping the relative oscillations of uke and nage over time. His chart would make perfect sense if they were elementary particles, although in that case the chart really should be labeled with fractions of pi rather than degrees. It makes somewhat less sense in the macroscopic limit (human beings).

Katherine
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Old 03-17-2011, 04:03 AM   #53
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
Joe,

Here's animation that shows:

http://www.rkm.com.au/ANIMATIONS/ani...sine-wave.html

In the nage/uke graph, cosine and sine display the passage of time, it has nothing to do with the physical rotations of nage or uke.
Tenju,
With all due respect you have not stated where/how you arrive at the 630 degrees . Would you accept my 360 degree as valid? Cheers, Joe.
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Old 03-17-2011, 06:02 AM   #54
danj
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

I note the following
"Tenyu Hamaki is using diagrams **the one used in this thread?** that I created as part of my Aikibojitsu art form. These are direct copies from my own hand, and Tenyu Hamaki is using them without my permission. In fact, he didn't even ask. Everything he is doing is fradulent.

- Tom Read, founder of Aikibojitsu"
from http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...059#post276059

The above is a fairly serious accussation I would think.

As an aside it also may explain the difficulty in adequately explaining the illustration and if it is indeed the case as suggested above I imagine the original accompanying text or commentary would shed some light.

respectfully,
dan

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Old 03-17-2011, 07:07 AM   #55
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

If you can't explain it so that people who already know Aikido can understand you then how are you going to get a new student to understand you?

dps
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Old 03-17-2011, 12:10 PM   #56
Mark Kruger
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
If you can't explain it so that people who already know Aikido can understand you then how are you going to get a new student to understand you?

dps
I suspect that new students are preformal.

The sad part about all of this is that it's going to make it harder for Read Sensei.

Respectfully,
Mark Kruger
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Old 03-17-2011, 12:30 PM   #57
Mark Kruger
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Mark,
Physics etc was never my strong point but geometry states that 360degrees is a circle? Where does Tenyu get his 630 degrees from unless of course he does more than one [ in Aikido terms ] rotational movement?Having said that why would anyone want to rotate more than 360 degrees anyway?Ice skaters may do multiple rotational movements but these are just 360 degrees multiplied by the number of rotations they do.I have yet to see a compass/protractor that can draw /measure 630 degrees. Cheers, Joe.
To answer your questions to the best of my ability:

Yes, there are 360 degrees in a circle. A degree, in this case, is a measure of angle. Of course the graph is labeled "x = time". Now, given a known angular velocity, you can associate time and angle, but there is no indication that this has been done in the graph. I suspect that Read Sensei had a verbal discussion that went along with the graph.

630 degrees does imply more than one full rotation around the circle.

Respectfully,
Mark Kruger
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Old 03-17-2011, 02:43 PM   #58
Tenyu
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
the chart really should be labeled with fractions of pi rather than degrees. It makes somewhat less sense in the macroscopic limit (human beings).

Katherine
I can't visualize Pi/2 like I can 90 degrees. There's no benefit using a confusing unit of measurement when one that's universally understood is available.
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Old 03-17-2011, 02:53 PM   #59
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

Quote:
Daniel James wrote: View Post
I note the following
"Tenyu Hamaki is using diagrams **the one used in this thread?** that I created as part of my Aikibojitsu art form. These are direct copies from my own hand, and Tenyu Hamaki is using them without my permission. In fact, he didn't even ask. Everything he is doing is fradulent.

- Tom Read, founder of Aikibojitsu"
from http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...059#post276059

The above is a fairly serious accussation I would think.

As an aside it also may explain the difficulty in adequately explaining the illustration and if it is indeed the case as suggested above I imagine the original accompanying text or commentary would shed some light.

respectfully,
dan
This has all been covered:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19361

post #291 in http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...=19361&page=12

post # 43 in http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...t=19542&page=2

I can't explain what you don't understand if you don't tell me what it is you don't understand or if you don't read what I've already written about the graph.
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Old 03-17-2011, 02:57 PM   #60
Tenyu
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
If you can't explain it so that people who already know Aikido can understand you then how are you going to get a new student to understand you?

dps
I already said in post # 329 on page http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...=19361&page=14 that technical theories are not given to a beginner. This is a forum of many teachers who could all benefit from reading and understanding the deeper concepts in Tom's book. I do think the book at times uses unnecessarily long descriptions, but considering there's never been a book before with this level of insight on the fundamental principles of Aikido, it's worth the effort to read once. I haven't read it in a couple years and I'll probably never read it again because I understood it the first time. The only thing I didn't get were a couple equations of higher math, but the concepts they describe were accessible.
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Old 03-17-2011, 03:07 PM   #61
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
I can't visualize Pi/2 like I can 90 degrees. There's no benefit using a confusing unit of measurement when one that's universally understood is available.
They're just different abstractions used to denote the same thing. Visualizing 90 degrees is visualizing Pi/2, so if you're doing one, you're already doing the other, but I agree it's generally better to use terms that feel most comfortable/familiar to us.
Also, I tend to think the use of confusing terminology has its place in the learning process. When you showed up here talking about asymptotes and the like, while it initially was gibberish to me (despite knowing a little about calculus), it provoked me to learn. Situational adaptation, whether it's the ability to switch between modes of communication or adapting to some "new" set of attacks, is what I consider to be the essence of "budo."

Last edited by mathewjgano : 03-17-2011 at 03:09 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 03-17-2011, 04:28 PM   #62
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

Actually, i don't see this addressed at all, Since Tom's post is the last one in that particular thread and all...

BUT I am late to the party, and as such, my impressions don't mean squat.

Best,
Ron (and I SUCK at math, so...)

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
This has all been covered:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19361

post #291 in http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...=19361&page=12

post # 43 in http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...t=19542&page=2

I can't explain what you don't understand if you don't tell me what it is you don't understand or if you don't read what I've already written about the graph.

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 03-17-2011, 05:14 PM   #63
Tenyu
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

I can't believe I have to repost myself after giving proper links multiple times. No one can argue I haven't described in detail what those graphs mean. If any of the following descriptions are not understood, then a specific question must be asked.

If nage is absolutely non-resistant(yet grounded) then nage will always lead uke with a 90 degree phase shift in time, where uke has no potential for kaeshiwaza and nage has the option of presenting uke with a throw at 90, 270, 450, 630 degrees, and so on which can all be a terminal point in nage's expression of peak intensity during that particular cycle. Essentially uke has to deal with infinity then if nage chooses the exponential over linear path. Hikitsuchi Sensei said if your heart is not correct your technique cannot be correct, if you do not practice masakatsu agatsu then you will either consciously or unconsciously impose your personal desires hence resistance into the pre-determined preformal role of nage. Modern society teaches us freedom lies in having choices, while aikido teaches us freedom lies in understanding the universe already made the choices for us while giving us the ability to manifest them totally non-resistively and beautifully. It's no surprise the martial aspect is such a small subset of aikido, it's religion by definition.

The graph in the book represents only one waveform in real life application, not two. It's nage's job to initiate and lead, with respect to uke's inertial reactance, the same waveform uke's bound to from the very beginning. The sine and cosine in the book represent nage's relative power locations in time(90 deg, the fixed point of non-resistance) ahead of uke's along the exact same waveform.

I realize there's a lot of focus in non-Aikido internal arts to succeed through buckling and compromising uke's integrity, but these actions both in theory and practice create a fundamentally flawed separation(please read Ascent of Humanity in Open Topics) with multiple discordant waveforms between nage and uke. If it's not obvious chaos is the last thing nage wants in a martial interaction. If one's in danger, then nage will do whatever necessary including compromising uke's integrity, but that's easy for any beginner to learn and should rarely be the focus in the practice of Internal Aikido. The psychology and intent we train most of the time in the dojo is the same one we want to be applying in our daily lives.

We already have a global culture and infrastructure today, politically, economically, socially embracing this disrespect for uke's integrity, primal violence, desire to segregate the other through every means possible. People ‘succeed' by subjugating the other, might makes right, but no one's ever apart from their actions. We are what we do. A firm foundation and grounding in the Infinite cannot co-exist that way. The root source of all of humanity's problems can be traced back to normalizing disconnection with the Infinite.

When you hit a bag you're striking with your hand at uke. With the staff, I'm striking with uke at a grounded asymptote in space. In Aikido, I never strike at uke. Any atemi*(a physically unconnected throw) I throw are never aimed at uke in the particular but at upstream asymptotes surrounding uke that absolutely determine all of uke's options. For this to happen all of nage's atemi and power applications must be ahead of uke's power applications by 90 degrees, the location of total non-resistance, in time. You can see this mapped out in the graphs on this page: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14719 The Y-axis represents the power applications of both nage and uke. 1 and -1 are exactly the same, they both represent peak applied power(contraction) and 0 represents a return to peak potential power(decontraction). I copied these graphs from memory after one of the first classes I attended of Tom's where he drew this on the chalkboard. It's also in his new book Aikido Aikibojitsu and The Structure of Natural Law.

This is why fighting and blocking are impossible in Aikido. Referring to the same graph linked above, fighting requires nage's and uke's lines to intersect at 0, and for their peak power applications to collide together at the same time, the definition of absolute resistance.

*Atemi can be used as a transitional resonator(non-activation) leading up to the throw/strike or it can be used as a complete throw/strike(activation) in itself. The asymptotic placement in space is different depending on the type of atemi.
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Old 03-18-2011, 05:30 AM   #64
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
I can't visualize Pi/2 like I can 90 degrees. There's no benefit using a confusing unit of measurement when one that's universally understood is available.
Well, were you an engineer you will find pi/2 far more visualizable than 90º...
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Old 03-18-2011, 07:17 AM   #65
Marc Abrams
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

The owner of the written material (Reid Sensei) has clearly stated that it is being used without his direct permission. NOBODY should be responding to Tenyu, who is using somebody else's work without their explicit permission.

Marc Abrams
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:49 AM   #66
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
The owner of the written material (Reid Sensei) has clearly stated that it is being used without his direct permission. NOBODY should be responding to Tenyu, who is using somebody else's work without their explicit permission.
Well, with all due respect for Reid Sensei, I don't see the connection between using somebody else's work w/o their explicit permission and responding to some(other)body else.
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:52 AM   #67
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

If you give a person enough rope he will hang himself, over and over and over again.

Tenyu's inability to use scientific concepts coherently smacks of pseudoscience.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience,

"Pseudoscience is a claim, belief, or practice which is presented as scientific, but which does not adhere to a valid scientific methodology, lacks supporting evidence or plausibility, cannot be reliably tested, or otherwise lacks scientific status.[1] Pseudoscience is often characterized by the use of vague, exaggerated or unprovable claims, an over-reliance on confirmation rather than rigorous attempts at refutation, a lack of openness to evaluation by other experts, and a general absence of systematic processes to rationally develop theories."

Or simply put, If you can't dazzle them with your brilliance then baffle them with your bullshit.

dps
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Old 03-18-2011, 02:36 PM   #68
Tenyu
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
The owner of the written material (Reid Sensei) has clearly stated that it is being used without his direct permission. NOBODY should be responding to Tenyu, who is using somebody else's work without their explicit permission.

Marc Abrams
Are you implying I'm copying and pasting from the book here? I've never duplicated any passages on this forum or elsewhere. The only thing I've used are the two graphs, which were originally posted three years ago before I even knew there was a book. Regardless they fall under fair use copyright laws.

No one else here but George has promoted the book, which was published three months ago. I suggest you buy it yourself if you haven't already, you would learn a lot from it.
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Old 04-22-2011, 04:37 PM   #69
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

It has come to my attention that I may have been murky and less than precise in some of what I meant to say on this thread.

At one point I said something to the effect that reading this book wouldn't improve your Aikido. Taken out of context it doesn't sound like what I intended to say so i will restate my idea.

No book alone will improve improve anyone's practice. Just as few ouwld maintain that reading every book written on Zen will substitute for actual practice of meditation, no book on aikido, no matter how profound, will make your Aikido better without the effort to reflect the ideas and concepts outlined in the book in ones physical practice.

I think some took my statement to mean that I adhere to the belief that such a book as Tom Read's is merely an intellectual exercise. I do not believe that. Those who know me have heard me state on many occasions that I think that in order to have great Aikido, one needs to be thoughtful about ones practice. Personally, I think Aikido is an art designed for thoughtful people. I have never seen anyone who's Aikido is very good at all who is anti-intellectual about what he is doing. I think that the "just practice and you'll eventually get it" folks are not only wrong but 40 years of Aikido history would prove my point.

Tom Read's book on Aikibojitsu is complex. Our art is complex. The book takes work. Our art certainly takes work. But I want to be clear... thoughtful people, in my opinion, do better Aikido and this book offers an almost unlimited set of ideas and insights to help one think about the art. If one takes these ideas into ones practice so that they are reflected in what one is actually doing on the mat in the dojo, then the book will certainly help to make ones Aikido better.

The book is absolutely worth reading. It is a masterpiece of insights that came directly from a man's lifetime of Aikido practice. I hope this goes some way towards clearing up any misconceptions I may have created.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 04-23-2011, 08:18 PM   #70
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

Largely based on discussions on the Aikiweb and George's thoughts I took a punt and bought the book in question, the author was happy to ship down under which was a great help too. Ponying up the $$$ I had to realise that while I'll happily pay hundreds to go to a seminar, why was I balking at the price of a book? Strange really because a book (anyones book) is something they have put a lot into and spent time distilling and organising their thoughts.
Well I am only a little way through this book and its tough going (even though I am literate in the sciences used in the book) here are a few thoughts so far.

1/ Gifted people usually use a structure/pedagogy to express themselves, often its easy to mistake the structure for the gifts or vice versa - particularly in the pseudo sciences and eastern schools (which i'll not name examples of because its a distraction and a red herring). Whats unusual here is western science is the structure and vehicle but the book is not scientific per se. Having got my head around that its easer to get on and read the book.

2/ Its a really heavy read, probably if your conversant with the science its off putting and if your not conversant with the science its a barrier to entry.

3/ Its seems to me to be autobiographical and an authentic representation of the author and his life's work, what a treasure to have someone lay it out for others to read.

4/ Mid way through the book I have a few things I can set to work on, one of which has had an immediate effect on my aiki. Not many seminars have had that effect.

planing to write up a full review when i finish, that might be sometime down the track though judging on my progress

dan

PS and OT George, am enjoying your video on connection too. Somethings are familiar some less and new stuff too, some things heard before in other ways some not. Seems a bit like a DR, IS, systema, aiki with a few other juicy bits rolled in as well and very helpful as an affirmation, learning tool and challenge to get better...thankyou

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Old 04-24-2011, 12:38 PM   #71
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Re: Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law

Quote:
Daniel James wrote: View Post
Largely based on discussions on the Aikiweb and George's thoughts I took a punt and bought the book in question, the author was happy to ship down under which was a great help too. Ponying up the $$$ I had to realise that while I'll happily pay hundreds to go to a seminar, why was I balking at the price of a book? Strange really because a book (anyones book) is something they have put a lot into and spent time distilling and organising their thoughts.
Well I am only a little way through this book and its tough going (even though I am literate in the sciences used in the book) here are a few thoughts so far.

1/ Gifted people usually use a structure/pedagogy to express themselves, often its easy to mistake the structure for the gifts or vice versa - particularly in the pseudo sciences and eastern schools (which i'll not name examples of because its a distraction and a red herring). Whats unusual here is western science is the structure and vehicle but the book is not scientific per se. Having got my head around that its easer to get on and read the book.

2/ Its a really heavy read, probably if your conversant with the science its off putting and if your not conversant with the science its a barrier to entry.

3/ Its seems to me to be autobiographical and an authentic representation of the author and his life's work, what a treasure to have someone lay it out for others to read.

4/ Mid way through the book I have a few things I can set to work on, one of which has had an immediate effect on my aiki. Not many seminars have had that effect.

planing to write up a full review when i finish, that might be sometime down the track though judging on my progress

dan

PS and OT George, am enjoying your video on connection too. Somethings are familiar some less and new stuff too, some things heard before in other ways some not. Seems a bit like a DR, IS, systema, aiki with a few other juicy bits rolled in as well and very helpful as an affirmation, learning tool and challenge to get better...thankyou
I am glad you are finding the DVD set useful. There's a lot in there. Most of the time when you work with Ikeda Sensei or Saotome Sensei and they want to focus on "aiki" work, they do so in the context of connection exercises. Often, folks might have some moderate success doing what they are doing, but then have problems translating the principles back into their kihon waza. I've been trying to develop an organized presentation of the principles so that folks can go through the whole repertoire of what they already know and apply the principles to take things up a level or two.

George S. Ledyard
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