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Old 03-16-2011, 05:09 PM   #251
Marc Abrams
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
No walls in my life Marc, I'm just saying it as it is with no bullshit or otherwise. It seems to you that I have a narrow aspect, but believe it or not I am trying to listen to what you have to say, but it seems that maybe you have a narrower aspect than I ?
Nothing wrong in aikido for health, but you already know my slant on that one.
Aikido is either a martial art or it is not. Martial means martial not playing, praying it might happen, but knowing it will happen .....
As for my limitations, I happen to live in the real world and know the truth which in it's way is far more liberating than you can imagine......
My dojo is outside in the real world. My inside dojo is where we experiment, find out what will work and will not work, discard that which does not. That is not to blindly repeat a lie until the truth hits you so hard you will realise that you have trained in vain and wasted an awful lot of time as many are beginning to find out.
Aikido will work, but it will be adapted to look like nothing you do in the dojo. It is as rough as a Badgers Bum as Joe Curran has said, bless his cotton socks!!
Kata practice is not enough. All those that think so, I'm sorry but you are just deluding yourselves and your students......period!!
Tony:

The nonsense begins when we try to define what a martial art is or isn't. The nonsense begins when we try and define what a real fight is and isn't. The nonsense begins when we try and talk about what we know works and doesn't. They are self-limiting starting points. The more you learn, the more you realize how much more there is to learn. What might work in one situation, utterly fails in others. What we think works, blinds us from finding out what can work more efficiently and better.

You talk about trying to understand where people like myself come from and what we are talking about. We invite you to experience first hand what we do from outstanding people and you either find reasons not to do it, or simply discount it. You cannot have it both ways.

We agree that when it is time for the pedal to hit the metal, what we do does not typically look like what we do in kata practice. Then again, kata practice without bunkai kumite and without a deeper understanding of what is contained within and hidden within kata practice is little more the exercises in motion.

We are all dedicated to the MARTIAL ART of Aikido. We are not deluding ourselves with lies, anymore than we are trying to become invincible in real life.

Marc Abrams
 
Old 03-16-2011, 06:18 PM   #252
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Tony:

The nonsense begins when we try to define what a martial art is or isn't. The nonsense begins when we try and define what a real fight is and isn't. The nonsense begins when we try and talk about what we know works and doesn't. They are self-limiting starting points. The more you learn, the more you realize how much more there is to learn. What might work in one situation, utterly fails in others. What we think works, blinds us from finding out what can work more efficiently and better.

You talk about trying to understand where people like myself come from and what we are talking about. We invite you to experience first hand what we do from outstanding people and you either find reasons not to do it, or simply discount it. You cannot have it both ways.

We agree that when it is time for the pedal to hit the metal, what we do does not typically look like what we do in kata practice. Then again, kata practice without bunkai kumite and without a deeper understanding of what is contained within and hidden within kata practice is little more the exercises in motion.

We are all dedicated to the MARTIAL ART of Aikido. We are not deluding ourselves with lies, anymore than we are trying to become invincible in real life.

Marc Abrams
Then we do agree on a lot of things, but not all. On those we can agree to disagree. I'm just telling it from my perspective.
Kata is the abc of what we do, whatever persuasion one comes from, whether that may be right or wrong. Adaption is the key to a successful martial art, of that there is no doubt in my mind.
Something that stagnates and fails to move on or adapt will perish...
Sokaku Takeda mentions that the techniques of aiki jujutsu are easy to perform and can be used even by women and children (but the abc has to learned first) The techniques can be easily countered, the reason he would only teach to those in responsible positions as he had that responsibility. Therefore kaeshi or ura waza comes to mind.... Adaption?
The best form of defence is attack, unfortunately it's defining that which is "fair" under the rules of law. The constraints of modern society and law make that almost impossible unless one's assailant has an unfair advantage. Modern or gendai sports aikido/judo makes that possible. MMA even more so in the short term.... but has it's drawbacks as anything else in life.
What is missing from mainstream aikido today is that "risk" factor.
Whether you do a more traditional hard style or hard "sport" style such as Shodokan, of which I am biased, will determine that risk factor. Personally I don't see much difference, except in their applications.
I'm of the opinion that one should practice the hard when young, then progress to the soft as one ages. that is common sense.
My belief is you cannot have one without the other.
The problem I see is, most these days want to go straight to the soft, without the "hard" work that implies. Strangely enough I can perform quite soft aikido, but I can also make it explode to.
That to me is what it's all about, being able to make it explode when you need it most....?
 
Old 03-16-2011, 06:33 PM   #253
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Nice vid. Uke seems pretty compliant though for all the talk of resistance training in this thread. And just wondering, if this was a video of, say, some Ki aikido practitioner would there be a chorus of derisive comments regarding the cooperative nature of the demonstration?

Ron
Some of it is compliant some of it isn't. Ask the uke's what they felt....
I'll let you guess what was and what wasn't..... Demo videos are very much like that
When the randori shia is taken out as it didn't resemble the kata stuff.....? People don't want to see that?

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 03-16-2011 at 06:38 PM.
 
Old 03-17-2011, 06:54 AM   #254
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Where was all of the 'internal' stuff you've allegedly always been doing Tony? Didn't seen any of that at all, if you've been on the end of it, or spent enough time around it, you should be able to see some elements of it, I don't see anything, how come?

Surely, this internal stuff would be perfect to use when demonstrating "soft 'trick' stuff"?

Best Regards,
John

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Old 03-17-2011, 07:44 AM   #255
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

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Where was all of the 'internal' stuff you've allegedly always been doing Tony? Didn't seen any of that at all, if you've been on the end of it, or spent enough time around it, you should be able to see some elements of it, I don't see anything, how come?

Surely, this internal stuff would be perfect to use when demonstrating "soft 'trick' stuff"?
Dear John,
What elements of internal aikido are you looking for?Ukes that fly across the dojo or worse the guys who fall over without being touched.You may not be fond of Tonys aikido but at least he gets stuck in.Are you an expert on internal aikido? If not what makes you such an authority on this subject?Maybe you watch to much stuff on youtube??
Cheers, Joe
 
Old 03-17-2011, 08:06 AM   #256
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

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Where was all of the 'internal' stuff you've allegedly always been doing Tony? Didn't seen any of that at all, if you've been on the end of it, or spent enough time around it, you should be able to see some elements of it, I don't see anything, how come?

Surely, this internal stuff would be perfect to use when demonstrating "soft 'trick' stuff"?
I don't look at it as internal but more as whole body core power, which is generated in the hips and a low centre of gravity....

Maybe as people say you can't see it but have to feel it?
My "internal" works different to others....?
To me that is something that works differently from one person to another and should come naturally.... that is inherent within waza itself if applied against resistance.... Common sense if you ask me...
 
Old 03-17-2011, 08:12 AM   #257
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

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Sean Kelleher wrote: View Post
Been enjoying reading this thread over the last couple of weeks...

I love the idea that to be a serious martial artist one must be prepared to be jumped at every corner and defend yourself in a life and death struggle against vastly superior aggressors (or at least something to that affect).

When you have had someone seriously try to kill you, and I'm talking someone who has taken lives before, you gain a different perspective and respect for the whole process. There is nothing martial in it at all, there is no distance or timing, there is no resistance or any of the guff we like to think is important. The aggressor is trying to gouge your eyes out whilst simultaneously kneeing you in the groin, whilst punching you repeatedly in the kidneys, tearing out hair, scratching skin. Its a wonderfully debased practice.

Your attacker does not let up because you've fallen to the ground or you've stopped resisting. There is no pause in the attack from the first time your head slams against the wall they have you pinned to.

Is this reality? Well yes, I've had this happen to me once. Is it likely to happen to most people in their lifetime? Probably not. Can I train to defend against this kind of aggression? Probably not.

Is my training up to reality? Sure. I avoid fights that I don't have to be involved in, I turn away from people goading me to attack them, I don't travel in areas where I'm likely to encounter such situations.

Can I depend on Aikido to protect me in all circumstances? Not sure. Would I fall back on my Kyokushin background? Possibly.

If only everything were so black and white. You train to suit your personal needs and requirements, you can be a weekend warrior if you want to be, you can practice all day every day.

Do most people stand post at night guarding for the intruder that might come? Do we even need to do this? Coming from an army family of three generations I know many members of my family stalked their respective homes at night and would hunt if they heard the wrong kinds of sounds outside. Despite the fact they knew they didn't encounter what they had expected (and dealt with during war-time) they still did it. Is this type of behaviour realistic?

I don't train with an expectation of being able to apply a technique or to perform in a certain way. My training is entirely centred around keeping moving if the proverbial hits the fan.

If you want to seriously train to reality, throw off the gloves, the style of martial art, the niceties, the rules, pre-conceived notions, everything. Have someone bigger and stronger seriously try and kill you and you have your answer to the OP of whether your Aikido as a Martial Art is up to Reality.
I have.......
 
Old 03-17-2011, 08:31 AM   #258
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Dear John,
What elements of internal aikido are you looking for?Ukes that fly across the dojo or worse the guys who fall over without being touched.You may not be fond of Tonys aikido but at least he gets stuck in.Are you an expert on internal aikido? If not what makes you such an authority on this subject?Maybe you watch to much stuff on youtube??
Cheers, Joe
Hi Joe,

Far from it - I'm just working on things in my own club whilst trying to follow a few teachers but not be a copycat, I'm trying to figure out how to get my body to do the things some of their bodies can. I've not felt any Aikido teacher in this country who feels like some of the guys who I like - I mean that from an 'internal' feeling point of view. Hard to explain, but kind of like feeling how the hell did they just do that to me. Mostly I feel (in this country) definite muscling of most techniques on me - every way of course has it's merits and to each his own.

I'm absolutely not wanting to see uke's fly away or fall over without being touched - that would impress me about as much as it would impress you.

I'm afraid that I rarely watch youtube for my Aikido fixes, I usually get out to seminars and train with people as opposed to stomping around a mat telling others that they should try to understand the principles behind the techniques when it's someone not even of their background or 'flavour' of aikido teaching. Ahem, some Scottish chap did that to me once or twice lol.

I'm far from an expert on anything internal, but I do know what I've felt is not something 'normal'. I've trained with quite a few guys in this country, you included (you're the Scottish guy I mentioned above lol) and no-one has given me the same feeling of utter confusion yet. Lot's of pain yes, but not lots of confusion.

I never meant any offense to Tony's aikido, indeed for what it was it looked good, just I was expecting something more from how he was talking in the IS threads. Indeed some of the thumb grabs and wrist manipulations reminded me of my first teacher, brought back a few memories .

Tony - yes and no, I don't think your internal works any different, I think you're talking about something entirely different which you are calling internal - and that's great for you. But it's not what the other guys are talking about .

Last edited by john.burn : 03-17-2011 at 08:33 AM. Reason: typo!

Best Regards,
John

www.chishindojo.co.uk
 
Old 03-17-2011, 08:46 AM   #259
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

A couple posts back I saw something that struck me... In the aikido people I respect and on whom I hold an opinion I have noticed an academic process that includes very basic movement transcending into softer and more subtle movement. Likewise, these people have an understanding of "harder" aikido even if they no longer choose to use it. Even in conversation when I hear these individuals talk they do not advocate that we should not train hard, they advocate that we should find a better way to train hard [that is safer and more productive].

Several months ago I posted a similar thread to discuss what I believe to be not only a problem with our physical aikido (not functioning to exectation as a fighting style) but also our philosophical expectations. I posted the thread because I experienced frustration with several philosophical posts at the time than made implications beyond what I believed to be reasonable.

I think some of my/our frustration with the performance of our physical aikido sprouts from an unreasonable expectation based within our philosophical understanding of the art. For example, if my philosophical basis for training is not combat then it stands to reason that my physical aikido would not need to actually work in combat.

I do not necessarily have a problem with this as long as we express our philosophical beliefs prior to expressing our aikido. Right now, I think we have a lot of aikido that does not work and the practioner retrofits his philosophy to excuse the poor expression of his aikido. Instead of "I do not believe in fighting and I do not practice aikido to fight, here is my aikido that reflects that belief," we get "My aikido does not need to work because I do not believe in fighting." It seems a small thing, but the causal relationship is important because in the latter statement, we have neither functioning aikido nor a stable philosophy. I think the exercise of the question is important because it acts like a compass to help us keep the proper direction in our training.

An old translation of "bu" involves the description of stalling the halberd, the implication of the character as an agent of action to prevent war. A key component of the interpretation being the ability to act to prevent war. I believe this is also a key component to aikido - aikido needs to be able to engage in a dialogue with our partner that sets some hard and fast rules about how uke is going to resolve the conflict.

I think one point of reality that I will assert is that reality is not in a dojo. Reality requires more clear (i.e. simple) communication as to how technique is resolved... I believe this is why collusive aikido is difficult to translate into street technique.
 
Old 03-17-2011, 09:05 AM   #260
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

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John Burn wrote: View Post
Hi Joe,

Far from it - I'm just working on things in my own club whilst trying to follow a few teachers but not be a copycat, I'm trying to figure out how to get my body to do the things some of their bodies can. I've not felt any Aikido teacher in this country who feels like some of the guys who I like - I mean that from an 'internal' feeling point of view. Hard to explain, but kind of like feeling how the hell did they just do that to me. Mostly I feel (in this country) definite muscling of most techniques on me - every way of course has it's merits and to each his own.

I'm absolutely not wanting to see uke's fly away or fall over without being touched - that would impress me about as much as it would impress you.

I'm afraid that I rarely watch youtube for my Aikido fixes, I usually get out to seminars and train with people as opposed to stomping around a mat telling others that they should try to understand the principles behind the techniques when it's someone not even of their background or 'flavour' of aikido teaching. Ahem, some Scottish chap did that to me once or twice lol.

I'm far from an expert on anything internal, but I do know what I've felt is not something 'normal'. I've trained with quite a few guys in this country, you included (you're the Scottish guy I mentioned above lol) and no-one has given me the same feeling of utter confusion yet. Lot's of pain yes, but not lots of confusion.

I never meant any offense to Tony's aikido, indeed for what it was it looked good, just I was expecting something more from how he was talking in the IS threads. Indeed some of the thumb grabs and wrist manipulations reminded me of my first teacher, brought back a few memories .

Tony - yes and no, I don't think your internal works any different, I think you're talking about something entirely different which you are calling internal - and that's great for you. But it's not what the other guys are talking about .
Ask any judoka where their power comes from... they will say the hips and legs, ask any karateka where where power comes from, they will say the hips and legs. Ask any boxer where their power comes from, they will say the hips and legs. Develop those core parts by proper conditioning and you will have natural power. Practice striking with all those thoughts in mind and you will develop power. Nothing secret about that.....
 
Old 03-17-2011, 09:18 AM   #261
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Ask any judoka where their power comes from... they will say the hips and legs, ask any karateka where where power comes from, they will say the hips and legs. Ask any boxer where their power comes from, they will say the hips and legs. Develop those core parts by proper conditioning and you will have natural power. Practice striking with all those thoughts in mind and you will develop power. Nothing secret about that.....
I really don't get why you can't just admit that their might actually be something in all this stuff that you don't know. As Marc said "What you think that you know impedes with you learning more."

I mean, you've been offered the chance to get out and feel someone who has the goods, did you accept the invitation? Nope. Tells me a lot about you, and pretty much all I need to know. I know's what I know and all that.

There's more to it than stating it's just hip and leg power. And no one said it was secret, it's hidden in plain sight, didn't you get the memo?

Last edited by john.burn : 03-17-2011 at 09:19 AM. Reason: typo

Best Regards,
John

www.chishindojo.co.uk
 
Old 03-17-2011, 09:38 AM   #262
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

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John Burn wrote: View Post
I really don't get why you can't just admit that their might actually be something in all this stuff that you don't know. As Marc said "What you think that you know impedes with you learning more."

I mean, you've been offered the chance to get out and feel someone who has the goods, did you accept the invitation? Nope. Tells me a lot about you, and pretty much all I need to know. I know's what I know and all that.

There's more to it than stating it's just hip and leg power. And no one said it was secret, it's hidden in plain sight, didn't you get the memo?
Maybe what I have is hidden in plain sight? I'm not doing all the bitching........? Ask my ukes what they think.... I'm sure they won't lie to you.
Lets see it and then we can make our minds up......It's a known factor when trying to "sell" something.... Like our tonic water is better than yours? Add a bit of secrecy and you have a good recipe for success..... coca cola comes to mind ?....
You have got have what someone else hasn't I have to buy that....
 
Old 03-17-2011, 09:44 AM   #263
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

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Mark Ackrill wrote: View Post
During a real fight (self defence) only gross motor movements are possible!

.
Depends on your psychological state.

"Bushido is in being crazy to die; 50 men could not defeat such a man."

Scaring someone trying to get killed is a non-starter. That person will therefore be relaxed and able to use all their training whereas the other guys are restricted to gross motor movements and thus loose their head to the crazy person.

Last edited by Ketsan : 03-17-2011 at 09:46 AM.
 
Old 03-17-2011, 09:51 AM   #264
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

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Maybe what I have is hidden in plain sight? I'm not doing all the bitching........? Ask my ukes what they think.... I'm sure they won't lie to you.
Lets see it and then we can make our minds up......It's a known factor when trying to "sell" something.... Like our tonic water is better than yours? Add a bit of secrecy and you have a good recipe for success..... coca cola comes to mind ?....
You have got have what someone else hasn't I have to buy that....
Tony, keep your wig on mate, at no stage did I say your Aikido was crap, at no stage did I suggest your uke's were tanking anything for you so I do not need to ask them how it felt. I actually said I thought the video was fine, I just expected I'd see something more instead of the 'normal' Aikido due to your own self inflating excellence in all things Aikido and internal. I made the suggestion that what you refer to as internal is, after viewing your video, definitely not what the others are referring to and in return you spit your dummy out . Good luck with that, typical response from you and what I would expect to see.

What is it you want to see exactly? There's enough footage around of some of these guys. I'm not one of them and have never claimed to be... I'm just trying to get my foot in the door with this stuff, simple as that.

Seems to me you love to add sarcastic comments to other peoples posts and videos but would appear to be beyond reproach with your own. Typical. Kettle, Black, Pot, Calling and all that.

Last edited by john.burn : 03-17-2011 at 09:52 AM. Reason: typo, need more caffeine today!

Best Regards,
John

www.chishindojo.co.uk
 
Old 03-17-2011, 10:15 AM   #265
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

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Tony, keep your wig on mate, at no stage did I say your Aikido was crap, at no stage did I suggest your uke's were tanking anything for you so I do not need to ask them how it felt. I actually said I thought the video was fine, I just expected I'd see something more instead of the 'normal' Aikido due to your own self inflating excellence in all things Aikido and internal. I made the suggestion that what you refer to as internal is, after viewing your video, definitely not what the others are referring to and in return you spit your dummy out . Good luck with that, typical response from you and what I would expect to see.

What is it you want to see exactly? There's enough footage around of some of these guys. I'm not one of them and have never claimed to be... I'm just trying to get my foot in the door with this stuff, simple as that.

Seems to me you love to add sarcastic comments to other peoples posts and videos but would appear to be beyond reproach with your own. Typical. Kettle, Black, Pot, Calling and all that.
I don't have a wig, and I have no hair....... except all that is growing out of every orifice other than my head....
Yes and I see there is a lot of hip and leg manipulation, sometimes subtle and not always visible. Body connection I can see and one can develop that from throwing the discuss, shot, hammer, javelin....
It's nothing new John, just a new package that's all....
Tell you what mate, how about bitching someone else. Or would you like to be mine? Me ? Like water off a ducks back......
From a rum, bum and baccy man....
 
Old 03-17-2011, 10:24 AM   #266
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

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Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
I don't have a wig, and I have no hair....... except all that is growing out of every orifice other than my head....
Yes and I see there is a lot of hip and leg manipulation, sometimes subtle and not always visible. Body connection I can see and one can develop that from throwing the discuss, shot, hammer, javelin....
It's nothing new John, just a new package that's all.....
LOLOL, yeah, I kinda realised you didn't have too much after I said that

I think that this new packaging has been floating around in its current form for a while, just us Aikido lot never picked up on it too much. Seems to crop up and disappear every five years or so... more people seem to be wanting to explore some of it now, we'll see... If I ever get it to some degree or other I'm happy about we can have a friendly exchange some time perhaps . You show me yours and I'll show you mine lol. I aint got it yet though, lol.

Best Regards,
John

www.chishindojo.co.uk
 
Old 03-17-2011, 10:31 AM   #267
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

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LOLOL, yeah, I kinda realised you didn't have too much after I said that

I think that this new packaging has been floating around in its current form for a while, just us Aikido lot never picked up on it too much. Seems to crop up and disappear every five years or so... more people seem to be wanting to explore some of it now, we'll see... If I ever get it to some degree or other I'm happy about we can have a friendly exchange some time perhaps . You show me yours and I'll show you mine lol. I aint got it yet though, lol.
ooooh sailor!
 
Old 03-17-2011, 10:58 AM   #268
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

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Tony:

The nonsense begins when we try to define what a martial art is or isn't. The nonsense begins when we try and define what a real fight is and isn't. The nonsense begins when we try and talk about what we know works and doesn't. They are self-limiting starting points. The more you learn, the more you realize how much more there is to learn. What might work in one situation, utterly fails in others. What we think works, blinds us from finding out what can work more efficiently and better.

You talk about trying to understand where people like myself come from and what we are talking about. We invite you to experience first hand what we do from outstanding people and you either find reasons not to do it, or simply discount it. You cannot have it both ways.

We agree that when it is time for the pedal to hit the metal, what we do does not typically look like what we do in kata practice. Then again, kata practice without bunkai kumite and without a deeper understanding of what is contained within and hidden within kata practice is little more the exercises in motion.

We are all dedicated to the MARTIAL ART of Aikido. We are not deluding ourselves with lies, anymore than we are trying to become invincible in real life.

Marc Abrams
Wouldn't that just make saying we are dedicated to the martial art of Aikido a non-sense statement? If you can't define martial art how do you know Aikido is a martial art? If anyone asked what you meant the only response you could honestly give was that you didn't know.
 
Old 03-17-2011, 11:39 AM   #269
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

It wouldn't hurt some to read this. Tomiki Shihan was a scholar as well as a budoka.....

http://judoinfo.com/new/alphabetical...y-kenji-tomiki

And yes I am biased... But I like traditional to....
 
Old 03-17-2011, 12:07 PM   #270
sakumeikan
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
John Burn wrote: View Post
Hi Joe,

Far from it - I'm just working on things in my own club whilst trying to follow a few teachers but not be a copycat, I'm trying to figure out how to get my body to do the things some of their bodies can. I've not felt any Aikido teacher in this country who feels like some of the guys who I like - I mean that from an 'internal' feeling point of view. Hard to explain, but kind of like feeling how the hell did they just do that to me. Mostly I feel (in this country) definite muscling of most techniques on me - every way of course has it's merits and to each his own.

I'm absolutely not wanting to see uke's fly away or fall over without being touched - that would impress me about as much as it would impress you.

I'm afraid that I rarely watch youtube for my Aikido fixes, I usually get out to seminars and train with people as opposed to stomping around a mat telling others that they should try to understand the principles behind the techniques when it's someone not even of their background or 'flavour' of aikido teaching. Ahem, some Scottish chap did that to me once or twice lol.

I'm far from an expert on anything internal, but I do know what I've felt is not something 'normal'. I've trained with quite a few guys in this country, you included (you're the Scottish guy I mentioned above lol) and no-one has given me the same feeling of utter confusion yet. Lot's of pain yes, but not lots of confusion.

I never meant any offense to Tony's aikido, indeed for what it was it looked good, just I was expecting something more from how he was talking in the IS threads. Indeed some of the thumb grabs and wrist manipulations reminded me of my first teacher, brought back a few memories .

Tony - yes and no, I don't think your internal works any different, I think you're talking about something entirely different which you are calling internal - and that's great for you. But it's not what the other guys are talking about .
Dear John,
I got the impression that it was me you were commenting on.Looks like I trod on your toes a bit.Not my intention.As far as stomping around the mat is concerned I have over the past few years had bother from a near fatal car crash coupled with a mild heart attack . I am still not fully recovered.Had I been so maybe we could have had a more rewarding encounter.I never suggested you were offending Tony.Tony being a shrinking violet is not going to shed a tear over minor differences of opinion.I dont always agree with Tony either as it happens. All I was asking you was to give me some idea of what you were looking for in the way of Internal Aikido.
For myself I have met various Sensei who one might call internal aikidokas Eg Yamaguchi, Sekiya, Tamura Sensei .
So , John, dont take the hump or make it personal. I know I am not everyones cup of cocoa. Having said that given the opportunity you might find me a charming chap.Hope you are well, Joe.
 
Old 03-17-2011, 12:26 PM   #271
john.burn
 
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Talking Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear John,
I got the impression that it was me you were commenting on.Looks like I trod on your toes a bit.Not my intention.As far as stomping around the mat is concerned I have over the past few years had bother from a near fatal car crash coupled with a mild heart attack . I am still not fully recovered.Had I been so maybe we could have had a more rewarding encounter.I never suggested you were offending Tony.Tony being a shrinking violet is not going to shed a tear over minor differences of opinion.I dont always agree with Tony either as it happens. All I was asking you was to give me some idea of what you were looking for in the way of Internal Aikido.
For myself I have met various Sensei who one might call internal aikidokas Eg Yamaguchi, Sekiya, Tamura Sensei .
So , John, dont take the hump or make it personal. I know I am not everyones cup of cocoa. Having said that given the opportunity you might find me a charming chap.Hope you are well, Joe.
Hi Joe,

Not too much offense taken. When my first teacher, Tom Moss passed away I must admit your email about him (which I still have) changed my view on you somewhat . It was quite a long time ago anyways, it was the year Tom was teaching on the BAB course, mind you then there was the year later on one of the Yoshinkan classes and you bowed to me, I was about to bow back when Tom grabbed me saying something like 'not today you don't'

And yes, you are a charming chap having spoken to you at various BAB meeting over the years, I used to look after their website.

Best Regards,
John

www.chishindojo.co.uk
 
Old 03-17-2011, 12:30 PM   #272
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Wouldn't that just make saying we are dedicated to the martial art of Aikido a non-sense statement? If you can't define martial art how do you know Aikido is a martial art? If anyone asked what you meant the only response you could honestly give was that you didn't know.
Alex:

When you are done playing word games, please let me know so that we can engage in an honest discussion.

marc abrams
 
Old 03-17-2011, 12:30 PM   #273
john.burn
 
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
All I was asking you was to give me some idea of what you were looking for in the way of Internal Aikido.
For myself I have met various Sensei who one might call internal aikidokas Eg Yamaguchi, Sekiya, Tamura Sensei.
Ah, yes, to answer your question...

Sadly I never got to meet Yamaguchi so it'd be Saotome sensei and Ikeda sensei in Aikido terms, I've also been on the mat with Ushiro sensei (karate guy) a few times too. Certainly for me, Saotome and Ikeda are the 'internal' Aikido gold standard IMHO.

Best Regards,
John

www.chishindojo.co.uk
 
Old 03-17-2011, 12:39 PM   #274
sakumeikan
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
John Burn wrote: View Post
Hi Joe,

Not too much offense taken. When my first teacher, Tom Moss passed away I must admit your email about him (which I still have) changed my view on you somewhat . It was quite a long time ago anyways, it was the year Tom was teaching on the BAB course, mind you then there was the year later on one of the Yoshinkan classes and you bowed to me, I was about to bow back when Tom grabbed me saying something like 'not today you don't'

And yes, you are a charming chap having spoken to you at various BAB meeting over the years, I used to look after their website.
Dear John ,
I really was quite saddened when Moss Sensei passed away.
I thought he was a really nice man and very sincere in what he was doing in Aikido.Maybe its the Glasgow in me that occasionally gets up some peoples noses. Glaswegians tend to call a spade a shovel-we are so backward about going forward.Anyway not to worry a little bit of internet blarney makes my day. Cheers, Joe.
 
Old 03-17-2011, 12:55 PM   #275
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

a) what makes you think that we haven't read it?

b) Yes, he was quite a scholar when it came to things budo. Not surprising really...in many ways aikido can be a thinking man's MA / Budo / Sport whatever you choose to call it, and how ever you choose to practice it.

c) I would have loved to both train under him and to have picked his brain. For the memories alone!

Best,
Ron

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
It wouldn't hurt some to read this. Tomiki Shihan was a scholar as well as a budoka.....

http://judoinfo.com/new/alphabetical...y-kenji-tomiki

And yes I am biased... But I like traditional to....

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 

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